ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

  • April 26, 2024, 06:00:08 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Electric Motorcycle Forum is live!

Pages: [1]

Author Topic: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2  (Read 4551 times)

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« on: December 15, 2015, 05:04:53 AM »

This is an update to my other FastAce fork thread of 8/17/15 (I've left out the disassembly info here, as it's all over there).  The 18-23 lb/in springs and 3W oil installed at that time were working well, but after the springs bedded in the sag was excessive (32mm static, 67mm 'race') & reduced the effective fork rake & available impact travel, which these forks can ill afford to lose.  Zero claims they're 9" travel, but that's including the full length of the bottoming cone - which on these forks never gets used unless you're doing front flips - and some of the top-out spring too. The metal-to-metal limit is 8.45" / 215mm from top-out spring contact to cone bottom, and actual real-world travel is more like 7.5" / 190mm.  The plan now is to shorten & reshape the bottoming cones, & add 6mm soft-nylon bottoming washers as insurance.

The new springs (again from Cannon Racecraft) are 19.0 - 24.0 lb/in (0.34 - .43 kg/mm, 5% stiffer each rate) progressive with the soft/hard 'knee' at 3.0" / 75mm (15mm sooner), and overall length is 16.75" / 425mm (5mm longer, for more preload). A 4mm spacer is also used, for a total of 9mm preload; it's a little much right now, but should be perfect later (we'll see). The other specs were unchanged:  O.D. 1.46" / 37mm, I.D. 1.10" / 28mm, wire O.D. .171"/ 4.3mm. Sag is now 24mm static / 44mm race, and if this set is like the first one, this should settle in to about 25S / 50R in a few months. The Cannon P/N for these springs is 37425 .34-.43, but you'll have to specify the 76mm knee point.

Here's a photo of the old and new springs (top spring is the one that came out, new one on the bottom):



The oil situation is very different from last time.  I'm now using 420cc per leg (up from 400cc), a blend of 340cc Red Line LikeWater suspension fluid (5.50 cSt @ 40° C, half as thick as the Bel-Ray 3W used last time) and 80cc of Tri-Flow PTFE (Teflon) liquid lubricant.  I also coated the springs with Tri Flow, and used Finish Line Stanchion Fluoro Oil on the outside of the sliders.  The springs have yet to break in, but the fork still feels slick and will only get better with time.  NOTE: like most older-design USD forks, the upper tubes are not hard-anodized and the springs rub against them pretty good; both the OEM and Bel-Ray oil had a fair amount of fine aluminum dust in it.  I was a little surprised that only 370cc of oil came out, when 400cc went in 4 months ago.  This is a closed, non-leaking system; where did that 30cc go?  It sure didn't spray out the bleeders.

I've got four rides on this setup, and the changes are interesting.  Impact absorption & deflection off rocks seems unchanged, though the stiffer springs transmit a bit more shock to the bars (this should change; the first set of springs got noticeably softer after a while). The fork stays more extended on average & the bike feels more stable; before it had good stability under acceleration / OK while coasting / a little squirrely under hard braking, now it feels very good / good / OK under the same conditions.  The front end also feels lighter.  As expected, with the front stiffer the rear felt too soft, so I increased preload 4mm back there, bringing the rear sag to 32mm static / 88mm race, IMO very good numbers for a 9"-travel rear end w/progressive spring.

The new super-thin fork oil gave me a few clicks of adjustment to play with, but as before, results were not great and I ended up back at 0 clicks rebound damping (although 1 click was also OK if the bumps were spaced farther apart). It seems the rebound clicker affects both rebound and (to a lesser degree) compression over a medium-wide range, while the compression adjuster mainly affects compression over a much narrower range.  I think the rebound shim stack in these forks is set up much too stiff, meaning that most of the low-mid velocity rebound damping takes place in the bidirectional clicker circuit, which is not how it should work.  Normally the clickers are adjustable bypasses that kind of 'dilute' the effect of the stacks, as a fine-tuning measure.  On these forks the first few CW clicks of rebound damping (starting from full CCW / 'soft') greatly restrict the clicker flow to redirect oil through the stack - which is fine if the stack is set up OK - but since the stack is like a brick wall in these forks, the rebound damping goes through the roof & the fork is still trying to recover when the next bump hits it.  The compression stack is a lot better, as the fork is very responsive to bumps at all speeds and resists deflection quite well. I'm still playing with compression settings at this point.

I'm also using the Outlaw Racing M5x0.8 air bleeders, which work really well and are black/silver instead of electric blue or orange. :)  It's critical to use these during sag testing, as you need to know what the springs alone are doing, as well as the spring/air combination.

Ray

« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 05:34:29 AM by rayivers »
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 07:19:36 AM »

I got another chance to play around with the compression adjusters today. I'd been running them fully CCW (min. compression damping), but today I tried first full CW / max damping, then halfway (6 clicks CCW from full CW).  As with most cartridge-type forks, these are clearly low-velocity damping adjusters.  Increasing damping  reduced see-saw effect over widely-spaced bumps, and also brake dive to a certain extent (I think it's hard to greatly reduce dive using just compression damping without turning the fork into a rock). Sharp impacts are handled by the compression shim stack (which works pretty well with the lighter oil and springs I'm using now), so it was great to be able to adjust dive and tweak the general bike 'attitude' over jumps and whoops without affecting anything else.

I've pretty much settled on 1 click CW (from full CCW) for the rebound adjusters.  0 clicks is a little too fast and pogo-stick for me, and 2 clicks seems a bit slow for closely-spaced bumps.  The small amount of high-speed compression damping the rebound adjusters add really isn't a problem, although it is noticeable.

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes

MrDude_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1146
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 08:23:09 PM »

I was a little surprised that only 370cc of oil came out, when 400cc went in 4 months ago.  This is a closed, non-leaking system; where did that 30cc go?  It sure didn't spray out the bleeders.

Springs have alot more surface area than you would initially think they have. A thin coating over the entire spring could account for most of that loss.
I have never had success in measuring the "remaining" oil in a fork.  Thats why I just clean it all out and start over with fresh oil.
Logged

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9484
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2016, 08:32:07 PM »

That is also why manufacturers' factory service manuals (for damper-rod-type forks) now recommend that the fork oil always be checked by measuring the oil level in the fork (measured from the top of the tube and with the fork compressed) with the springs out, rather than just dumping in a specified amount of oil, like they used to recommend 20 years ago.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Ndm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 08:45:55 PM »

That's the best way to do it, use the fork tube as it's own beaker with a pre determined measurement
Logged
2013 zero S  ZF13.0 , 2017 chevy bolt, 2008 IGO Titan bike

MrDude_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1146
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2016, 08:53:34 PM »

That is also why manufacturers' factory service manuals (for damper-rod-type forks) now recommend that the fork oil always be checked by measuring the oil level in the fork (measured from the top of the tube and with the fork compressed) with the springs out, rather than just dumping in a specified amount of oil, like they used to recommend 20 years ago.
I dont think thats a new thing, my HawkGT had that method written in it, and it was made back in the 1980s.

From page 12-17 of the HawkGT service manual:

Logged

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2016, 10:59:08 PM »

Just got back from a ride with some new settings (fork & shock), it was definitely an improvement over yesterday's performance.  It's skimming the whoops again like it used to, which is most excellent.

The oil-changing specifics are mostly in the 'my other FastAce fork thread' link at the beginning of this thread.

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 02:08:56 AM »

On a side trail I found a set of unevenly spaced crater-like bumps that are great for suspension adjustment.  Here's the latest setup:

Rebound: 3 clicks CW fm full CCW

Compression: 6 clicks CW fm full CCW

I've used these settings for 5 rides now and haven't thought about the suspension once, which IMO is a really good sign. :)

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes

manitou

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 07:58:27 PM »

I appreciate the write up, but this is over my head.  What is the easiest way to smooth out the jerky front shocks?  When braking it feels like there's some sticky threshold I have to bust through each time. Thanks!
Logged

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9484
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 08:20:29 PM »

I appreciate the write up, but this is over my head.  What is the easiest way to smooth out the jerky front shocks?  When braking it feels like there's some sticky threshold I have to bust through each time. Thanks!

I agree that there is a lot of "static friction" in the Fast Ace fork seals (probably to keep them from leaking oil).  Other than adding lots of miles to your bike to wear out the seals, the only thing that I have found that helps is to spray silicone lubricant up into the seals (as best you can). That helps reduce the "striction" for a while.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

manitou

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 08:46:47 PM »

I'll give that a try. Just coat the outside area of the seals correct?  No surgery required. (?)
Logged

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2016, 09:26:05 PM »

+1 on lubing the seals.  Normal spray lubes will remove some dust-wiper stiction, but this stuff bonds with the stanchion-tube surface and lasts for weeks, plus it finds its way up into the oil-seal lips as well.  Apply, wait 2 hours, ride.

If you really want to loosen up the stuff that's actually causing most of the binding (springs, tube sliding surfaces, etc.), remove the fork vent screws and squirt half a bottle (1 oz.) of this stuff into each fork leg; it comes with a small tube that should fit thru the 5mm screw hole. There's more than enough volume for the extra oil without overly affecting the internal air pressure at full bottoming.

Neither of these things are a substitute for getting the crud-filled OEM oil out and some good stuff in, but they're easy, cheap, and a lot better than doing nothing. 

Ray


« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 10:18:56 PM by rayivers »
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9484
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 06:50:40 AM »

I'll give that a try. Just coat the outside area of the seals correct?  No surgery required. (?)

You want to try to get the lubricant between the seals and the fork slider.  Not too easy as you are squirting the spray uphill. If that is too messy, just coat the fork sliders with silicone lube or that stuff rayivers recommends. (I am going to order some of that and give it a try.) Be sure not to get any spray on the brake disc, brake pads or tire.  Something else you can do is to reduce the fork compression to the minimum.  That will also provide some damping relief when hitting a sharp bump.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

rayivers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: FastAce fork oil change / spring replacement, part 2
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2016, 12:15:51 AM »

I changed out my oil again (360cc this time, down from 420cc) and just finished my 4th ride with the new setup.  The lower oil level is definitely the way to go in these forks.  The first half of travel feels about the same, the 2nd half feels a bit smoother and less choppy, and near bottom (where it had been feeling pretty harsh on braking bumps with the high oil level) it now seems better than ever, without any bam! bam! BS.  I'd been venting fork pressure at the beginning and middle of each ride, but now it's not really necessary.  The new springs took a set as expected; sag is now 30mm static / 58mm race, up from 24S / 44R.  My next set of springs will have slightly stiffer initial & softer final rates, a longer 'knee', and less preload, using oil level / air pressure to determine the bottoming spring rate.  Clickers are all still at zero, but I'll try adding some compression damping to see how it works with the new oil level. Rebound seems fine, fast but controlled.

@ 410cc of black oil came out of each leg, then smaller amounts of the same oils as last time went in (300cc Red Line Likewater + 60cc Tri-Flow PTFE lube).  Springs / preload / etc. weren't touched.

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '19 Alta MXR, '18 Alta MXR, various '74 - '08 ICE dirt bikes
Pages: [1]