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Author Topic: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.  (Read 16700 times)

Farfle

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Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« on: December 11, 2015, 08:17:51 PM »

Hello all,  Jackson (Farfle on ES) here.
I am dumping some good info on our batteries as they relate to the Zero bikes. You guys will hopefully find this usefull in your electric journeys, feel free to ask questions, I am happy to keep misinformation to a minimum.

Here is a quick background on the cells, and some long winded do's and dont's:

First, a quick background on the cells:

The 25Ah cells are a solid cell, and are Farasis's oldest chemistry design. They are a manganese-rich cathode (NMC) 25ah cell with excellent cycle life, and acceptable C-rate. These were used in MY13, MY14 and MY15 FX only.

The 27Ah cell introduced for the model year 15 bikes is an adaptation of the 25ah cell chemistry with thinner foils and more of them, this means that there is more active materiel (more capacity)  but less conductive path to get that capacity in and out. So for the slow discharge S/DS bikes, you get more capacity, but they are lower C rate, and cannot handle being used in the FX platform. (Used in MY15 S/DS only)

The 29Ah cell was introduced for MY16, the 29 is Farasis's newest generation of NMC cell, and they are awesome. They have both higher discharge rate (peak and continuous) than the 25Ah cell, and more capacity (especially at higher C rates/cooler temperatures) than the 27. This is used in all MY16 bikes.

Ok, on to the Do's and dont's.

The cells mainly age in two ways (there are other processes going on, but not dealing with those today),

The ways that the cells degrade are:

No.1: The electrolyte reacting with the active components of the cathode and anode in the cells, and releasing gas (calender life),
No.2: The Interaction between the lithium ions and the anode/cathode blend that causes a small amount of damage each time they are cycled. (Cycle life)

These factors affect the cells about equally, but extreme conditions can sway it either way.

Things that speed up degredation, and make your battery sad ( AKA the "Dont's"):

Hot temperatures: This causes the electrolyte to become more reactive. At Farasis, We have one of the most stable electrolyte blends in the biz, and use alot of proprietary tech to keep our cathode/anode blend as least reactive as possible, but the effect is unavoidable.

High voltage: Again, The higher the potential between the cathode and anode, the faster the reaction between the electrolyte and the actives occurs.

Super low voltage: Below a certain voltage (2.0-2.2V/cell) the potential between the cathode and anode is such that the battery has used all its high potential  lithuim, and so it starts picking on the next easiest thing, which is the copper.
 This process is super ugly, as it electroplates the copper off the negative foils (anode) and electrodeposits it onto the positive foils (cathode).
 PERMANENT IRREVERSABLE DAMAGE. This is super dangerous too, as the next time it is charged, that copper gets blasted back to the negative foils and lands wherever it feels like, as the anode isnt designed to deal with copper Ions. So they form big crystal stabby structures called dendrites, which at best can pierce the seperator and cause high self discharge and gassing as the electrolyte nucleates (gas builds up, the cell goes to 0V and looks like a balloon) , or at worst, the dendrite is able to get a solid connection between the cathode and anode, and this causes the cell to short internally and results in fire.
Luckily for you, Zero has an amazing BMS and pack topology that sips hardly any power from the cells in a key-off state, but you still can murder the bike by approaching 0% SOC as slowly as possible until it is at its absolute lowest SOC (state of charge) and the BMS shuts the bike off. What happens is that the bike has the smallest amount of reserve battery then, and the BMS sipping away at that small amount will eventually murder the cells over a period of several years.

Basically, the way to kill a zero the fastest is to either ride it to absolutely dead as possible, and then store it in a shed for six years, or to store it at absolutely tip top charge in direct sunlight in a super hot desert in arizona somewhere. Either way, you will still struggle to kill them before the warrantee is up.

So, to prolong your battery life, you can do the exact opposite. Store the bike in a cool place with a stable temperature at low SOC.
 ~20% or so is fine for S/DS (one BMS sipping on 3-5 cellboxes) or 30-40% for the FX modules (one BMS per cellbox)

When you get done flogging the crap out of your S/DS on a hot day, let it cool down for 4-6hrs before charging it (takes less time for FX modules)

Fast charging is fine, but know that around the .8C mark is the point where at normal ambient temp, you go from cooling off to heating up. If your pack is already hot from a ride thru the desert at WOT, and you fast charge, you are still going to be on a hot pack when you continue your WOT journey. Not a big deal, but you will get some extra high temp degredation. The BMS will keep you from really buggering your pack, so dont worry about it.

Hopefully  this helps you all better understand what goes on "under the hood" on your batteries.

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firepower

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2015, 08:26:35 PM »

Thanks for sharing the info.
Do you have links to data sheets of your batteries?
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Farfle

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015, 08:31:20 PM »

I can dig them up, got hit by a car and totalled my '15 ds yesterday. So i am away from my work PC till monday.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015, 08:42:24 PM »

Great info as always Jackson!  Hope you're not too sore today.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2015, 08:53:06 PM »

Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.

Thanks for the info, this is great!

Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

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Lipo423

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015, 10:07:22 PM »

Thanks for sharing the info Jackson.
I'm familiar with Lithium batteries, and pretty much do what you have suggested, however this is very specific to your cells/chemistry/morphology and will follow your advice strictly  ;)

Thanks again, this is of great help for this community
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Bikes: Kawa GPX 600, Suzuki GSX 750-R, Yamaha FZR 1000, Suzuki Lido 75, Peugeot SV 125, Suzuki Burgman 400, Suzuki Burgman 650, KTM EXC 250, 2012 Zero ZF9 - All of them sold -
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Spoonman

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 10:58:23 PM »

Nice bit of detail on the failure modes there - much appreciated!
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Erasmo

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015, 11:19:08 PM »

I can dig them up, got hit by a car and totalled my '15 ds yesterday. So i am away from my work PC till monday.
Ouch I hope you're ok and can ride again soon.

I hope you can still salvage some cells from the TL, somebody with your background should be able to create an super power tank in a top case or similair ;)
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benswing

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 11:41:28 PM »

Thank you for the detailed, yet entertaining information.  Especially the insight into how the cells get buggered or murdered.

Heal well!


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evtricity

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 12:20:12 AM »

What is the peak and  continuous discharge rates of the 2016 29A cells (I understand the 2014 25A cells were 7C peak and 4C continuous)?

Thanks

PS I've attached the data sheet for the 25A cells. Would love to see the data sheet for the 29A cells
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 01:15:15 AM by evtricity »
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Farfle

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 01:49:17 AM »

Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.

Thanks for the info, this is great!

Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)

If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of  our  battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2015, 01:54:21 AM »

Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.

Thanks for the info, this is great!

Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)

If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of  our  battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
After I posted I found this site that appears to sell Farasis batteries... is it bogus?

http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

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Farfle

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 01:59:28 AM »

What is the peak and  continuous discharge rates of the 2016 29A cells (I understand the 2014 25A cells were 7C peak and 4C continuous)?

Thanks

PS I've attached the data sheet for the 25A cells. Would love to see the data sheet for the 29A cells

Awesome! Thanks for the datasheet scrounging!

The 29ah Cells (and others) are in the identical cell pouch size as the 25 in that datasheet.

have an awesome "layered layer" particle size spread that gives ~15% higher Cont C rate, and a fat  30% more 30s burst C rate (10C!) They also seem to have an odd capacitive effect (super low AC impedance) that gives ludicrous ~3s burst rate (not useful for motos)
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Doug S

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 02:04:11 AM »

The 29ah Cells (and others) are in the identical cell pouch size as the 25 in that datasheet.

have an awesome "layered layer" particle size spread that gives ~15% higher Cont C rate, and a fat  30% more 30s burst C rate (10C!)

If I'm calculating this right (and I am), that means they could put out 1160 amps for 30 seconds. If Sevcon made a controller that would support that, we could have an SRR with 186 ft-lbs of torque.

I don't think I want to throw a leg over that bike.
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Farfle

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Re: Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2015, 02:51:25 AM »

Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.

Thanks for the info, this is great!

Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)

If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of  our  battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
After I posted I found this site that appears to sell Farasis batteries... is it bogus?

http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

To be conpletely honest, I do not know what CTC battery co. Is exactly, I know Farasis owns them, and that we have some CTC batteries in our lab for test and eval right now. Most of those use our 18650 cells (which are nothing special TBH) our power 18650 cells arent that great, and our energy 18650s suck. We do have a high cycle life (>2K) 2.0ah 18650 that goes in a ton of china EVs.
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