Topic: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour (Read 35862 times)

Electric Cowboy · « **on:** September 25, 2015, 11:38:51 AM »

Hypothetically speaking here, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour how much would you pay for the charger?

Also some things to keep in mind about this hypothetical charger, it fits under a power tank shell, weighs a little less than a power tank and can plug into any j1772 or Mennekes station. It would probably have a loud fan, but not for long because it charges so fast.

Hypothetically that is. In no way shape or form am I saying that I am working on or have anything like this installed and or am testing in my bike right now. That would be just plain crazy talk.

GambitDash · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2015, 12:32:57 PM »

How badly would this void my warranty and/or set the whole bike on fire?

Cheers
--G

Erasmo · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2015, 02:07:01 PM »

It all depends on how much hypothetical kW it could deliver.

Justin Andrews · « **Reply #3 on:** September 25, 2015, 03:10:59 PM »

I'm guessing this hypothetical charger is a bit more powerful than the prototype charge tank you had built a while back.

BrianTRice@gmail.com · « **Reply #4 on:** September 25, 2015, 06:49:27 PM »

This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.

Burton · « **Reply #5 on:** September 25, 2015, 06:54:39 PM »

Since SAE wasn't mentioned I will also assume this could be done with standard J1772 L2 infrastructure (ie 240vdc @ 30amps) we find all over the US.

A hypothetical charger capable of 1C > charging (even if you were to rewire the pack voltage temporarily for the charge) is worth more than a "power tank" module in my book. With 1C charging alone you could easily do an iron butt and still have hours left in the day to spare (I know I did the calculations a while back)

IF, and note it is a big IF, zero came out with a "charger tank" solution which allowed me to charge that fast I would expect the price to be a little above a power tank given it has extra peripherals.

Now that said two J1772's could provide a 1C charge for a DIY solution around $2000 but that is doing all the work yourself and it wouldn't even be water resistant or work in humid environments. You would also need to be able to find two J1772 or 14-50 circuits right next to each other in the wild and not in use by other vehicles to do it. (this isn't practical even for me near DC which is why I only have "half" of this solution built)

To me this would be worth more than any CHAdeMO solution given the infrastructure is far larger. I would be willing to pay $3500 for this. But I don't know if it can be profitable at even this price point.

Burton · « **Reply #6 on:** September 25, 2015, 07:14:10 PM »

Quote from: BrianTRice on September 25, 2015, 06:49:27 PM

This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.

Brain the old 2013 S CHAdeMO solution from zero cost $1800 not installed (when you could still buy it). There is a third party trying to make their own CHAdeMO solution to sell for $2500 ... if what is proposed could be done on J1772 I doubt it could cost less than $2000 less you know of some chargers I am unaware of.

I have built a 5000w charger for about $1000 ... That is J1772 connector / circuit, wires / adaptors / extension, chargers, schottky diodes etc. It requires one J1772 in order for it to work and takes 2 hours to charge the bike from near zero to 90%. Oh, and it isn't water resistant.

One Elcon 2500 cost $850 not programmed, setup to accept J1172, or hook to your bike. You would need 2 of these to achieve my DIY solution above plus the connectors. So for 5000w your looking at $1700 for chargers alone and another $200 for extras so lets round it to $2000 ... or $4000 for a 10000w solution and you need two J1772's to plug into.

5000w is a .5C charge rate. We are talking about a 1C+ charge rates without DC FAST charging (correct me if I am wrong EC)

This wouldn't be a direct to battery solution (like CHAdeMO) where the chargers are EXTERNAL to the vehicle requiring minimal parts and programming, it would have to be a solution where the chargers are INTERNAL to the vehicle. Such chargers are not cheap for the outputs needed to produce a 1C, or greater, charge rate.

NEW2elec · « **Reply #7 on:** September 25, 2015, 07:58:34 PM »

If I'm already going to a station because I need a proprietary plug why would I want an expensive charger on my bike? All the charging equipment needs to be at the station ready to go. We don't carry an oil refinery on our cars we let someone else handle that we get it all ready to go in the form of gas. The key is a standard of charging which may be years away and may still change a few times after that. That Lightning 218 supposedly charged fully in less then 20 mins for his land speed record run by going DC/DC at very high voltage which is great but it can kill you real quick if it goes wrong.

Justin Andrews · « **Reply #8 on:** September 25, 2015, 09:27:53 PM »

New2Elec, what you are describing is DC>DC charging, the rumor mill is that Zero are working on it, I would hope they are aiming for CCS instead of CHaDemo as CCS is compatible with J1772 sockets. Indeed that's the route that Energica have gone down with the Ego.

BrianTRice@gmail.com · « **Reply #9 on:** September 25, 2015, 09:32:53 PM »

Quote from: Burton on September 25, 2015, 07:14:10 PM

Quote from: BrianTRice on September 25, 2015, 06:49:27 PM
This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.

Brain the old 2013 S CHAdeMO solution from zero cost $1800 not installed (when you could still buy it). There is a third party trying to make their own CHAdeMO solution to sell for $2500 ... if what is proposed could be done on J1772 I doubt it could cost less than $2000 less you know of some chargers I am unaware of.

I have built a 5000w charger for about $1000 ... That is J1772 connector / circuit, wires / adaptors / extension, chargers, schottky diodes etc. It requires one J1772 in order for it to work and takes 2 hours to charge the bike from near zero to 90%. Oh, and it isn't water resistant.

One Elcon 2500 cost $850 not programmed, setup to accept J1172, or hook to your bike. You would need 2 of these to achieve my DIY solution above plus the connectors. So for 5000w your looking at $1700 for chargers alone and another $200 for extras so lets round it to $2000 ... or $4000 for a 10000w solution and you need two J1772's to plug into.

5000w is a .5C charge rate. We are talking about a 1C+ charge rates without DC FAST charging (correct me if I am wrong EC)

This wouldn't be a direct to battery solution (like CHAdeMO) where the chargers are EXTERNAL to the vehicle requiring minimal parts and programming, it would have to be a solution where the chargers are INTERNAL to the vehicle. Such chargers are not cheap for the outputs needed to produce a 1C, or greater, charge rate.

Okay! I partly threw out the number to get someone to make a good argument. I buy your argument based on your experience and would pay that price, too. Thanks.

benswing · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2015, 12:03:49 AM »

To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?

That would be great since there are many double J1772 posts here on the east Coast.

protomech · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2015, 12:44:43 AM »

Quote from: benswing on September 26, 2015, 12:03:49 AM

To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?

A single 240V 48A EVSE (60A breaker) plugged into a 90% efficient OBC could charge a ZF12.5 from 10% to 90% in approximately 50 minutes. 60 minutes for a 240V 40A EVSE, 76 minutes for 240V 32A .. 94 minutes for a 208V 30A EVSE.

Two inlets really would work best with separate chargers. People have built devices to combine multiple 240V sources, into a single high-amp EVSE, but frequently the sources are not electrically compatible.

Doug S · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2015, 12:44:55 AM »

Quote from: benswing on September 26, 2015, 12:03:49 AM

To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?

That would be great since there are many double J1772 posts here on the east Coast.

For my 2014 SR with 11.4kWh battery (I'll just use the nominal value), you'd need 51.8 amps @ 220VAC to recharge in an hour....at 100% efficiency.

But Justin at least is talking about the CCS connector. How many of those are available now, does anybody know? Hopefully, the spec will be more fully-formed and enforced by whatever body owns the spec than CHAdeMO is.

benswing · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2015, 01:49:05 AM »

The CCS chargers are being built out in a network primarily by BMW. Their standard only goes down to 250 V, so it won't work with our bikes by design.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Burton · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2015, 01:54:42 AM »

I wish I could filter plugshare to only show locations with > 1 J1772 plug right next to each other.

When I went to the vetter challenge I pent an hour or more mapping these locations by hand using the plug share app then sharing the google map I created with everyone :/

Being a developer it is frustrating to see low hanging fruit features excluded :*(

I have had a extra tank on order with my stealership for months now so I could make an enclosure complete with wrack for my charging solution to keep it out of the rain and make it cleaner.

ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

News:

Poll

Hypothetically, How much would you pay for an onboard charger that could fit in your tank and charge your zero in under an hour?

Author Topic: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour (Read 35862 times)

Electric Cowboy

Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

GambitDash

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Erasmo

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Justin Andrews

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

BrianTRice@gmail.com

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Burton

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Burton

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

NEW2elec

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Justin Andrews

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

BrianTRice@gmail.com

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

benswing

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

protomech

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Doug S

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

benswing

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour

Burton

Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour