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Poll

Knowing full well that ChaDeMo does not work at all stations, what would you pay for ChaDeMo if it were available now?  In other words, who is ready to put their money where their mouth is?

$1,800
- 12 (50%)
$2,000
- 8 (33.3%)
$2,500
- 4 (16.7%)
$3,000
- 0 (0%)
$3,500
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 24


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Author Topic: Who wants ChaDeMo  (Read 5273 times)

benswing

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Who wants ChaDeMo
« on: April 28, 2015, 11:29:55 PM »

Now that Zero has ceased making ChaDeMo charging available for their systems, we will have to find someone else to make an adapter.  They won't do it if there is no demand.  This poll is designed to see what the demand is for a ChaDeMo fast charging system.  This price is for the charging adapter only, not including installation (if necessary).

If you are not interested in it, please don't fill out the poll.

For new people: ChaDeMo fast charging has the capability to charge a Zero from 0-80% in half an hour.  However, some ChaDeMo stations are not made to spec and they do not charge at the voltage Zeros use (about 100V). Hopefully this poll will show some opportunistic electrical engineer that there is demand to make adapters for us.
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Burton

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 12:18:50 AM »

This might serve as a good indicator of availability. (see attachment)

If you search other countries the numbers are often flipped in favor of CHAdeMO for some...
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ultrarnr

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 04:46:16 AM »

Below is an email from Aaron Cheatham at Zero Motorcycles that was sent to my Zero dealer on 1 August 2014. My dealer forwarded this email to me.

The bottom line is that Zero felt good about ABB, Nissan and Fuji CHAdeMO systems. They had limited but successful testing of Eaton CHAdeMO. There is someone on this forum who had a CHAdeMO on their 2013 Zero and successfully charged at Eaton CHAdeMO systems.

Hi Tanner,
I am glad we finally connected via phone. I thought I would send a quick email for your reference based on our conversation.
The 2014 Zero SR CHAdeMO kit has not been released by engineering.  I believe we are only a few weeks away, but I wouldn't be able to ship immediately. 
You asked about compatibility with an Eaton Charging Station.  Unfortunately, we have limited access to this brand and have not been able to perform thorough compatibility testing.  Our tests with the two systems in California were successful, but your customer may want to contact Eaton about this specific charge station to be sure.  The specific questions that should be directed toward Eaton are whether they implemented the full CHAdeMO specification and support voltages as low as 50V.
In general, we have not been able to provide an official compatibility list because there is no central testing location or methodology offered by the CHAdeMO group to ensure it.  We have found incompatibilities with stations that we believe have not fully implemented the CHAdeMO specification.  Usually, these related to a lack of support for voltages around 100v, which our motorcycles require, or Isolation Tests.  And a specific brand of station can differ by model or even firmware revision.  From our testing, we generally feel good about ABB, Fuji and Nissan stations, but Blink typically doesn't support the lower voltages.  AeroVironment may be working on a firmware improvement that will help, but they have not announced a release date.
We all know that the right answer is CHAdeMO should work in every case.  For this reason, I am continuing to work with the CHAdeMO organization to ensure that this is the goal.  And we believe that when charging station companies comply with the full specification, then our solution will work.  But because the market isn't there yet, our CHAdeMO solution today tends to be best for fleet customers willing to install a known compatible charging station.  I am happy to speak directly to the end customer about this if it helps support your business.

Regards,
Aaron Cheatham
Director of Customer Experience
Zero Motorcycles
@aaronzeromoto
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xmjsilverx

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 07:03:08 AM »

I believe a quick charging like chademo is needed over anything else to bring electric motorcycles like zero to the mainstream.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 12:37:36 PM »

DC charging would be considerably better than improving the chargers (which I'm deeply in favour of as it stands)
In the wider EV world I'd not shed a tear if AC charging died and went away and all charge stations were DC only.

The reduced need to fit large expensive chargers to EV's would help with prices, space and charging times.
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Lecram

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 01:45:55 PM »


The reduced need to fit large expensive chargers to EV's would help with prices, space and charging times.

And it reduces the weight of your bike
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 08:02:42 PM by Lecram »
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m0t0-ryder

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 07:32:20 PM »

I think what would be as good as, if not better, option would be for Zero to incorporate a Stage 2 J1772 charge connector to their bikes. Brammo does this on the Eclipse.
That could provide up to 80A of charge current thus reducing recharge time.
And... these J1772 Stage 2 recharging stations are much more common that ChAdeMo.

Of course it would be imperative that Zero support Stage 2 charging thru the J1772 connector.
(The current J1772 option from Zero is stage 1 with 15A Peak capability)

Here's more info on J1772 for those unfamiliar with the specification---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
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ultrarnr

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2015, 03:32:30 AM »

I think the challenge is finding a J1772 that can put out 80A/19.2kW. Honestly have never heard of any that do.  My experience is most only go to 6.6kW maybe 7.2kW. Some Blink are well under that.

For Zero to incorporate a J1772 charging system means they would have to modify the BMS. The reason that those of us using Elcons can't charge at GE Wattstations is that they require interaction with the BMS in order to provide power. It would also have to automatically adjust for the power level of the J1772 system. I can charge with 6300 watts from 2-2500 watt Elcons and the 1300 watt internal charger. But sometimes have to unplug the internal charger to prevent the breaker on the J1772 from tripping. Have had to go down to 3800 watts on some Blink networked systems.
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Chocula

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2015, 10:24:51 AM »

I don't think the BMS would need to be modified, rather they need to select a charger that can adjust the amount of power it draws based on what the pilot signal from the EVSE says is availible. 

While I have encountered many EVSE's that support up to 40 amp power draw, 30 and 32 amp are much more common.  I have not encountered one that is rated for more than 40 amps yet, even if supported by the specification.

To get beyond 7.2 kW, going with multiple chargers that can be connected independently, like what Tesla does, seems to be the most practical option.

My Brammo Empluse R has a 3 kW onboard charger.  If I had an option for dual 6.6 kW chargers, I would have no desire for DC charging at all.  Realistically, a single 6.6 kW onboard charger would have a more reasonable weight penalty.  Having an optional 2nd charger that could be attached as a side or top case would be an optimal solution.  If DC charging were more common and more cost effective, it would make a more attractive solution, but that seems like it will be a few years away still.
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Lecram

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2015, 01:57:21 PM »

A lght weight internal charger combined with DC charging is the best solution, I think. The new standard in the US and Europe is DC Combo charging, CCS, which is rapidly growing. Energica and Lightning are using CCS and can easily combined with AC charging. The CCS chargers in Europe (I dont know if thats also in the US) support 50-400VDC
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benswing

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2015, 04:01:22 AM »

There seems to be confusion among some people responding to this poll. This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available. 

Level two charging just doesn't cut it for road trips for most people.  I have already traveled 10,000 miles on road trips and crossed the country using level two charging.


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Doug S

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2015, 05:52:36 AM »

This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available. 

Not just faster, but lighter and cooler as well, with more space left for storage. All that heat-creating, space consuming, not especially lightweight rectification and regulation equipment doesn't have to be on the bike, so it shouldn't be on the bike. CHAdeMO would be a great solution if the equipment mfrs would just commit to it. It's not a standard if nobody complies with it, and us consumers deserve better.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 12:42:20 PM »

This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available. 

Not just faster, but lighter and cooler as well, with more space left for storage. All that heat-creating, space consuming, not especially lightweight rectification and regulation equipment doesn't have to be on the bike, so it shouldn't be on the bike. CHAdeMO would be a great solution if the equipment mfrs would just commit to it. It's not a standard if nobody complies with it, and us consumers deserve better.

Simpler as well, if the EV world moved over to DC charging, then there would be one less component on the bikes / cars to go wrong.
In the really real world however, having an AC charger on the vehicle does give you options in the event of an emergency .
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Doug S

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2015, 07:10:21 PM »

In the really real world however, having an AC charger on the vehicle does give you options in the event of an emergency .

Oh, I don't know about anybody else, but I'd never dream of proposing getting rid of the existing on-vehicle charger. At least 90% of my needs are met by commuting by day and plugging in overnight. I'm just looking for a supplementary option to meet the last 10% of my needs in an ideal way.
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Richard230

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Re: Who wants ChaDeMo
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2015, 08:25:36 PM »

I am with Doug S on this one.   :)

But I have to admit that it would be nice to be able to plug into a commercial charger if needed to as long as I didn't have to carry around some large gun-like connector device that takes up a lot of useful room in my saddlebags.   ::)
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