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Author Topic: Lithium Ion (Li-ion) Batteries used in Zero Motorcyles - all you need to know  (Read 39827 times)

buutvrij for life

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Thanks bonkers, ill take that in consideration when the freezing starts...
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pre-owned: Suzuki Intruder, Suzuki GSX-R750, Honda Fireblade '05, Honda Fireblade '09, Honda VFR1200F, Honda Fury 1300 CXA, Govecs Go! 1.2S, Zero DS 12.5, Honda NC750 X DCT, now Triumph Bonneville T120

MostlyBonkers

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There's some great additional information here:

Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314
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MostlyBonkers

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There's some great additional information here:

Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314
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morpheus74

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Hi,
I have a DSp (2014 11.4) since 2 months.
2 500km done
When fully charged, I saw with iPhone Zero application that Battery capacity is 10.556kwh.
I should expect to see something near 11.4kwh.
Is it the same difference for everyone using zero bike ?
Someone have the explanation ?

I spoke to my distributor, and he told me that 11.4 is max capacity, and that 10.5 is nominal capacity, the battery are never fully charged, this is to have a good battery life. "it's the same on all the bikes".

I found this curious as it is written 11.4 on the bike.

thanks

thanks
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Zero Fan .. SRF 2020 & DSR 2016

MostlyBonkers

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Hi Morpheus, remind me where you are based again? Are you in the UK?

As you may know I have recently acquired a DSP. I get almost exactly the same reading as you. In fact, if you check out the specs, Zero claim a nominal capacity of 10kWh. I don't know why the app reports more.

It's normal. The badge says 11.4kWh because that is the underlying capacity of the cells. Your distributor is telling the truth; keeping the maximum and minimum voltages of the cells lower and higher than their specified limits makes the battery last longer. That's why Zero can advise to leave your bike plugged in all the time and not worry about it adversely affecting battery longevity.
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morpheus74

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Thanks for reply ! and quick reply !

I'm in France, from Toulouse.
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Zero Fan .. SRF 2020 & DSR 2016

MostlyBonkers

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Mon plaisir! [emoji4]
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grmarks

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Very good piece of work, Bonkers. I've spent several hours reading battery University for the last 2 years, as my life depends more and more on battery tech, and this is a very good summary in relation to our bike's, and as you said; for people who like to take a little more care of their wheels!

I have a question about batterytemp/charging:

If my info is correct, Zero tells us not to charge or avoid charging below freezing point. (or the BMS won't allow it)
When my DS is resting, it's battery temperature is always some 10 or 12 degrees higher then its surrounding temperature. I'm talking Celsius here.
Would that mean that i could charge the bike when it's -minus 5 degrees celsius? (battery temp would then be 5 degrees above freezing point)

The reason i'm asking is because we have mild winters over here, and mostly, temperatures are close to freezing point, and i do like to take a little more effort to keep stuff in good condition ;D  My bike is always in the non-heated basement of my house. Is my thinking to simple or what?

Why not move the bike upstairs to the heated part of the house, that way you can always charge and the battery pack stays warm for your ride giving more range. This is what others have found in cold weather.
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kensiko

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Moving a bike upstairs seems easy for you :)
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Zero S 11.4 2013
Tesla S60 2014 CPO base
Gone -> Nissan Leaf 2014 SV rented (transfer)
Gone -> Prius 2010 bought at 180000 km.

protomech

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Hi,
I have a DSp (2014 11.4) since 2 months.
2 500km done
When fully charged, I saw with iPhone Zero application that Battery capacity is 10.556kwh.
I should expect to see something near 11.4kwh.
Is it the same difference for everyone using zero bike ?
Someone have the explanation ?

I spoke to my distributor, and he told me that 11.4 is max capacity, and that 10.5 is nominal capacity, the battery are never fully charged, this is to have a good battery life. "it's the same on all the bikes".

I found this curious as it is written 11.4 on the bike.

thanks

thanks

11.4 kWh is the "max" capacity, which is essentially the amp-hours multiplied by the maximum voltage at full charge. It will never be available in practice, because the voltage will decrease as the bike discharges. "Nominal" capacity is the more accurate measure, which is amp-hours multiplied by voltage at 50% charge.

It's not clear what the Zero app reports - whether charge consumed at the wall (unlikely), nominal capacity (seems high), or maximum capacity derated by some factor (the bike does not charge to a true 100% nor does it discharge to a true 0%, but perhaps 97% to 2%).
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MrDude_1

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11.4 kWh is the "max" capacity, which is essentially the amp-hours multiplied by the maximum voltage at full charge. It will never be available in practice, because the voltage will decrease as the bike discharges. "Nominal" capacity is the more accurate measure, which is amp-hours multiplied by voltage at 50% charge.

It's not clear what the Zero app reports - whether charge consumed at the wall (unlikely), nominal capacity (seems high), or maximum capacity derated by some factor (the bike does not charge to a true 100% nor does it discharge to a true 0%, but perhaps 97% to 2%).

hopefully it just measures the instantaneous current at the shunt, and logs it over time.. Like a Cycle Analyst does.
Anything else is just guessing.
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ArnoldOuistiti

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Hi all
great initial post!
(Sorry maybe the topic below has already been discussed before, I'm new to the forum)

I'm about to buy a 2015 DS model here in France and I was wondering about the possibility of using the battery as an energy source to power something else than the bike.
Let me explain a bit more: I'm in the renewable energy (solar and wind mainly) business. I'm specialized in residential solutions to provide electricity to take care of home & family daily needs. As you should know, solar & wind are versatile by nature and so you need to have a battery storage to manage night needs typically. The battery (see Telsa Powerwall) is a key part of my configurations, from a cost perspective especially. I would love the idea of using the Zero battery as a secondary storage (say in winter when you need more power and can't really use your bike because of the bad weather).
Any thoughts ?

Thanks a lot

Arnold.
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kensiko

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You could buy a 12VDC - 100 or 200 VAC (not sure about your standards). There is a 12V DC converter in the bike.

Of course there will be losses. It would be better a 100VDC to 100 or 200 VAC converter directly.
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Zero S 11.4 2013
Tesla S60 2014 CPO base
Gone -> Nissan Leaf 2014 SV rented (transfer)
Gone -> Prius 2010 bought at 180000 km.

Electric Terry

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How many watts do you need?

I lived in an off the grid house in Florida and used my Zero to charge my phone, laptop and run LED lights all night.  I had a 200 watt 12V DC/AC inverter that I ran off the bikes 300 watt DC/DC converter.

My laptop charger used 35 watts, my cell phone used 5 watts and the LED lights all added up to about 10 watts.  So I was only using about 50 watts of the 200 available from my inverter, but at night that's all I needed.   During the day, the solar would power the fridge, and other big items.  At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too.  Worked perfect.

For items that will run on DC, you'd be surprised how many will but do at your own risk, you can simply tap off the Anderson port and put a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 socket at the end.  Good for powering electric chainsaws in the middle of the woods, incandescent lightbulbs and other things.  Hopefully someone one day will make a list of items that work on DC.  If the device has a built in bridge rectifier then it should work.  If it's just a resistance element like a coil heater it should work fine too, but it depends on if it has a forced air fan that requires AC.   

You should safely be able to get 4000 watts from any 2013 and up bike and all you need is 1500 on a nema 5-15 plug anyway.

Safest way is to research a company like Xantrex or another off grid inverter company and tell them your battery bank is 100 volts DC.  I'm sure they have a solution.  Tap into the pos and neg on the Sevcon and with the bike on, you can power as much as your inverter can handle. 

Warning: The bike will time out after an hour.  Flip the run kill switch to the kill position, make sure the kickstand is down, and then, hold the throttle open with a plastic bag between the handgrip and the kill switch plastic.  This fools the bike and keeps it from shutting down after 3600 seconds.

Try the 200 watt inverter solution first.  You'll find at night when you're sleeping, you don't really need a lot of power anyway.  Oh and a bonus if you go that route.  The 2015 and up bikes have a 500 watt DC/DC converter now.  So that means you could charge 100 cell phones overnight if you wanted.  Build a kill switch for the headlight, and lock the throttle to keep it powering all night.  You will need to tap the DC/DC converter directly if you want to pull more than 120 watts as the accessory port has only a 10 amp fuse.

All of this will void your warranty however, except running a 100 watt cigarette plug inverter to power an LED lamp, phone charger and laptop charger, and your internet wireless router, which at night is all you should need anyway.
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MrDude_1

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At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too.
off topic, but it amazes me that everyone doesnt know this.. keep your freezer and fridge full of water bottles, and it will hold the temp better.. an empty fridge "pours" out all the cold air everything you open the door. but once you cool the water, it takes alot for it to warm up, and it keeps the fridge from working as hard.  so if your fridge is not full all the time, keep it full with water bottles. You can always take them out if you buy a bunch of food.
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