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[camosoul]

A few things have kept me out of the market.

1) Long charging times with built-in charger. I realize they want to idiot-proof the charger, but this is ridiculous.

2) Lack of faith in built-in BMSes. It's an oddly short warranty on the battery. It's like they have no faith in it or expect it to self-destruct.

3) No dealers anywhere near me. I've seen quite a lot of post-sale troubles... A lot of which I could probably handle myself if Zero answered the phone and did not presume all of it's customers are helpless moron consumers.

#1 is my primary concern

I'm quite handy with electronics so this wouldn't be hard fro me, but I'd prefer moar watts: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.0 I'm thinking of 2x MeanWell 2000-48s and a MeanWell 1000-24 in series dialed 45v-45v-24v. This should be under 30A. Inputs all parallel, outputs all series. Is 114v the bulk-charge cut-off point? Or is this max battery v? At over-rated numbers, this should get me approx 5500w. Roughly 1.5 hours to max charge from dead on a J1772; 2-wheel Tesla. Doc's hard paniers look like Pelican boxes, or similar. I'd rather carry my charger in something like that than a tank bag. Also, I'd probably get the 2.8kw tank battery to add to the 11.4. 88 miles on the interstate would be nice, but I'd probably stay off of the interstate anyway. There are almost no chargers around here. The closest chargers are J1772s at Nissan dealerships in Lake City, Valdosta, and Tallahassee, only open during business hours. There is nothing else. It's The Bermuda Triangle. If I can't fast-charge at these places, the bike is useless.

How is the bike in rain? I live in North Florida. Weather is exceptionally unpredictable. We get 15 minute afternoon thunderstorms the equivalent of a Category 3 Hurricane on a regular basis, out of nowhere, gone as quick as it came. I've been caught in them on many occasions on my Ninja and/or Rebel. I can handle it because my motorcycle handling skill level is borderline god-like, but how do the electrics cope with so much water coming down on them? Sometimes it feels like there is so much water in the air that it isn't really air anymore, you think you might simply be driving underwater. I read a bit about the regen causing rear-wheel lock. It would be nice if regen could be shut off by a grip switch I don't have to let go of the handles bars to hit.

Not interested in SR, the S is way more accel/torque than I need. Are there any belt-sprocket combos that LOWER the motor RPM? I don't really need to gain more top speed, though that would be the effect. I just don't need the crazy torque; lower RPM == less friction and wear == lasts longer. I run my Rebel on the longest possible sprockets that I can find. People tell me it'll never work, but I've been doing it for 5 years and no worries. I don't care if I have the slowest off-the-line Zero S on Earth. I outgrew that stuff a while ago...

Finding a test ride and a dealership that has a clue are already hard. Seems finding a dealership that can competently stand behind their warranty needs is even harder. It's over 200 miles to the closest... I'd almost prefer to buy a barely-used 2014...

Tell me where my thinking is flawed and/or what is correct. Trying to do my due diligence before buying. May end up taking long enough that the 2015 is announced. I sure hope they put a non-suck charger in it...

[protomech]

A few things have kept me out of the market.

1) Long charging times with built-in charger. I realize they want to idiot-proof the charger, but this is ridiculous.

2) Lack of faith in built-in BMSes. It's an oddly short warranty on the battery. It's like they have no faith in it or expect it to self-destruct.

#1 agreed. I see 6 kW charging on J1772 as the #1 priority for both Brammo and Zero. This won't turn the bikes into gas-equivalent tourers, but it'll relieve a lot of range anxiety if you can pick up an extra 20 miles of low-speed riding in 15 minutes.

#2 the battery has a 5 year warranty. That's short compared to car OEMs, but quite long in the bike world (1 year and 2 year warranties are the norm). I'd like to see them extend a 5 year warranty to the powertrain (motor + motor controller) as well, even if for a nominal fee.

3) No dealers anywhere near me. I've seen quite a lot of post-sale troubles... A lot of which I could probably handle myself if Zero answered the phone and did not presume all of it's customers are helpless moron consumers.

#1 is my primary concern

I'm quite handy with electronics so this wouldn't be hard fro me, but I'd prefer moar watts: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.0 I'm thinking of 2x MeanWell 2000-48s and a MeanWell 1000-24 in series dialed 45v-45v-24v. This should be under 30A. Inputs all parallel, outputs all series. Is 114v the bulk-charge cut-off point? Or is this max battery v? At over-rated numbers, this should get me approx 5500w. Roughly 1.5 hours to max charge from dead on a J1772; 2-wheel Tesla. Doc's hard paniers look like Pelican boxes, or similar. I'd rather carry my charger in something like that than a tank bag. Also, I'd probably get the 2.8kw tank battery to add to the 11.4. 88 miles on the interstate would be nice, but I'd probably stay off of the interstate anyway. There are almost no chargers around here. The closest chargers are J1772s at Nissan dealerships in Lake City, Valdosta, and Tallahassee, only open during business hours. There is nothing else. It's The Bermuda Triangle. If I can't fast-charge at these places, the bike is useless.

28 series * 4.2 volts/cell = 117.6V top-of-charge. I think Zero switches to constant-voltage mode at 4.15 volts/cell = 116.2V.

During bulk charge, the power supplies will act in constant-current mode, which is limited to 40A by the RSP-1000-48 (or 50A if it will do +25%). The ZF11.4 + powertank is a 125 Ah battery, so you're really looking at more like a 2.5-3 hour charge from 0.

Burton has a design for a charger array using 5 RSP-2000 chargers and two J1772 EVSE. This would deliver closer to a 1.3-1.5 hour charge for the 125 Ah battery.

How is the bike in rain? I live in North Florida. Weather is exceptionally unpredictable. We get 15 minute afternoon thunderstorms the equivalent of a Category 3 Hurricane on a regular basis, out of nowhere, gone as quick as it came. I've been caught in them on many occasions on my Ninja and/or Rebel. I can handle it because my motorcycle handling skill level is borderline god-like, but how do the electrics cope with so much water coming down on them? Sometimes it feels like there is so much water in the air that it isn't really air anymore, you think you might simply be driving underwater. I read a bit about the regen causing rear-wheel lock. It would be nice if regen could be shut off by a grip switch I don't have to let go of the handles bars to hit.

Other than an early waterproofing issue on the 2012 bikes and the 2013 ZF2.8 module recall, they seem to do fine in the rain from durability point of view. I find the bikes handle well in the rain, better than my GS500 which a) was heavier b) ran a little rough in truly heavy downpours.

You can program with the app to set zero or near-zero idle regen, so that simply closing the throttle will apply little or no braking to the rear wheel.

Not interested in SR, the S is way more accel/torque than I need. Are there any belt-sprocket combos that LOWER the motor RPM? I don't really need to gain more top speed, though that would be the effect. I just don't need the crazy torque; lower RPM == less friction and wear == lasts longer. I run my Rebel on the longest possible sprockets that I can find. People tell me it'll never work, but I've been doing it for 5 years and no worries. I don't care if I have the slowest off-the-line Zero S on Earth. I outgrew that stuff a while ago...

You can swap the 28 tooth front sprocket for a 30 tooth front sprocket. Or you can swap the rear 132 tooth sprocket for a 98 tooth sprocket. These are both available as accessories from Zero.

Finding a test ride and a dealership that has a clue are already hard. Seems finding a dealership that can competently stand behind their warranty needs is even harder. It's over 200 miles to the closest... I'd almost prefer to buy a barely-used 2014...

Tell me where my thinking is flawed and/or what is correct. Trying to do my due diligence before buying. May end up taking long enough that the 2015 is announced. I sure hope they put a non-suck charger in it...

Historically speaking, Zero announces their new bikes in October or November, and they're available for purchase in January or February. You might consider waiting.

[dkw12002]

Not flawed at all depending on how you use the bike. Charging has never been an issue for me cause I have gas motorcycles I use for longer trips and the bike is always plugged in all night and ready to go early the next morning. To me the biggest issue on your list would be no dealer close by.

Concerning rain. I try to avoid it. I got caught in a terrible, dangerous driving rain storm last summer on my 2013 S. Made it home. There was water everywhere up inside the bike. The bike ran normally, but every time I would boot up I got a warning light. I put a fan on the bike and then rode it around to get air circulating up inside and the warning light went away after a half hour of riding and that was that. So the light was due to moisture getting inside something, but I never figured out what that was.

I've only had to change a rear tire and have the firmware update. Oh yes, I forgot I had a solenoid go out so the turn signals and horn didn't work. Since my dealer is close, these were simple issues. I dropped the bike off for the solenoid and picked it up the next day. The dealer is 3 miles away. The dealer picked up my bike from my home for the firmware recall and returned it later that same day. For the tire, I bought the replacement tire and took it over to the dealer who put it on in 15 minutes while I was waiting. 3 simple issues, but if you had to drive 200 miles to deal with them, that would be a hassle.

[Doug S]

1) Long charging times with built-in charger. I realize they want to idiot-proof the charger, but this is ridiculous.

It's not just a matter of idiot-proofing the charger. Most 115VAC outlets are fused/circuit breaker'ed at 15 amps, so you shouldn't draw more than 12 amps or so continuously, since there are usually other loads on the same branch. That dictates no more than 115VAC * 12 amps = 1380 watts of charging, and an 11.4kW-hr battery charging at 1380 watts gives you the ~8-hr recharge time that Zero quotes (11400 / 1380 = 8.26 hours).

That's obviously not exactly what you'd call fast charging, but it's enough for many of us...I do my 50-mile commute, plug in when I get home, and the bike is ready to go again the next morning. Other options are available if it's not fast enough for you. You'll have to pay more to charge faster, while I'm satisfied with overnight charging so I don't have to pay for a higher-power charger, nor install a high-current 220VAC outlet at home to recharge faster.

[ultrarnr]

camosoul,

I have a 2014 SR. As far as riding through very heavy rain, no worries at all. Been there, done that, no issues at all. As far as charging goes I have two of the 2500 watt Elcon chargers that I have mounted in Trax side cases. I have the power tank and if my SOC is around 10% or so it can take up to 2 hours to fully charge. I have charged at several Nissan dealers and all of the charging stations could be accessed after business hours. The ones near you may be different but be sure before you rule them out for after hours charging. If you want/need faster charging at home just install a NEMA 6-50 or other 220 volt outlet. The Elcons charge a lot faster from 220 than they do 110. Also look into charging at campgrounds/RV parks. Many of them have 30 or 50 amp outlets that you can charge using the Elcons. Plugshare and RV Parky are the best apps for charging locations.

[camosoul]

28 series * 4.2 volts/cell = 117.6V top-of-charge. I think Zero switches to constant-voltage mode at 4.15 volts/cell = 116.2V.

Wow guys, very helpful input. It's almost like I'm not using the Internet. ;-)

I don't need fast charging at home, but I can wire up anything. I do not understand the use of a 110v charger as the default. I could see a 220v charger that can fall back to 110v, even if it isn't much more powerful, simply because it's more efficient. I realize the drawbacks of 110v, most of the world does, and that's why they don't use it... 2.5 to 3 hours is still better than 10. I'm trying to speed it up, but not at the cost of only working at certain J1772s, or needing two of them. Finding just one is a miracle around here. I've got to be able to use whatever little I can find. The Nissan Dealerships around here have the J1772s locked behind the fence after hours. The ones that have a CHAdeMO, have it available 24/7. But, those are over 200 miles away, just like the Zero dealerships. So, it looks like I've got a bit of room to flex in the top end of the bulk charge, and the power supplies I selected would have the adjust-ability to do it. Slightly over-estimated the rate of charge, but absolute zero SOC to 100% is not a real-world thing. Are these Manganese Lithiums? The charge profile and voltage seem to suggest it...

Programming regen in the app doesn't help when bad weather comes out of nowhere. Zero really needs to consider a button that stops regen while pushed. The concept of uncontrollable brakes is a bad idea, inclement weather or not. There is no clutch or shifter, so the respective body parts could learn a new trick. No starter button, either... There should be a "make it stop doing that" button for those emergency moments when you just need to freewheel for a second or two. There are lots of dirt roads adjoining to paved roads around here. Sand in turns you can't see yet is normal. Getting to my place is 2.5 miles of grass, dirt, and gravel that most people claim to "hear banjos" upon encountering, and run away... Perfect!

The battery warranty may seem long in the bike world, but when has this battery ever been in the bike world? This battery should have a 15 year warranty on it, not because bike, but because battery. If the BMS works as it should, this battery should live longer than I do. It may lose some capacity, but it should last at least 30 years of useful life. There's simply no excuse for it to be otherwise. The battery, if handled by the BMS correctly, does not care that it is in a bike, nor has being in a bike any impact at all on it's life-cycle. The short warranty tells me one thing, and one thing only; this BMS might be designed to deliberately destroy the battery. They wouldn't be the first. Lithium batteries fail in cell phones and laptops all the time, and it's not an accident. In the DIY electric world, BMSes have been designed to deliberately destroy batteries for decades. 20 years between sales just doesn't keep the champagne and caviar flowing... Lightbulb conspiracy, blah blah blah.

I'll probably hang back and see what happens in the 2015 models. I'm not expecting miracles, but they really, really need to do something about their remarkably poor choice of on-board charging. I live out in the country and rarely pass inside of city limits. When I do, I feel dirty and must get out as soon as possible. ;-) Their current selection of charging apparatus seems targeted at apartment dwellers and daily commuters. Or, just plain poorly thought-out. Many times the 110v charger would do fine for me, but I'd still prefer a dedicated 220v slow charger simply because it's less wasteful. I also have 5kw worth of solar panels that I haven't installed yet and should easily be able to DC pump the bike if I dreamed up some throttling circuitry. My concern is that when I have to/feel like going 250+ miles somewhere, I don't want to have to find a hotel every 100 miles and wait until the next day. It won't happen a lot, but it is a deal breaker if I can't do it. I almost bought a Tesla, almost... But that kind of car just isn't "me."

If I could go 30/98 on the sprockets, that'd be sweet. Would I be loading the motor enough that it might have a negative impact on efficiency? I heard there were some growling recalls... this could cause/exacerbate the same issue. People have been telling me that it'll destroy my Rebel for half a decade and more miles than said nay-sayers have put in their bikes in their whole lives. No problems and I don't care if it's slow. 13hp at the rear wheel is still more than I need. :-p

Again, thanks for so much useful input!

[Doug S]

If the BMS works as it should, this battery should live longer than I do. It may lose some capacity, but it should last at least 30 years of useful life. There's simply no excuse for it to be otherwise. The battery, if handled by the BMS correctly, does not care that it is in a bike, nor has being in a bike any impact at all on it's life-cycle. The short warranty tells me one thing, and one thing only; this BMS might be designed to deliberately destroy the battery.

That's just an incorrect and uninformed statement (I'll refrain from calling it ignorant). Zero's battery is rated for 2500 cycles, which is definitely on the high side for Li-ion batteries, especially for a battery pack which might be fast-charged. LiFePO4 might give you longer life, but that's about the only Li battery that will, and it has half the energy density of Li-NMC. Is the warranty too short, considering the 2500-cycle rating? Probably. I fully plan on cycling my battery at least four times a week, so the rated life should take it through 12 years of riding. But Zero is a tiny, growing company, and they've justifiably got liability concerns. They have only a tiny fraction the resources of a Tesla, and just can't offer long warranties like Tesla can.

[benswing]

For a 250 mile trip, so far most people are using 2 Elcon 2500W chargers plus the onboard charger, which would mean a 2 hour stop after 100 miles and then a 1 hour stop after the next 100 miles to go the final 50 miles.  That is a tested and known entity and you can get the setup shipped from Harlan at Hollywood Electrics. 

There is also the EMotoWerks fast charger that connects to CHAdeMO, which is an option on the 2014 bikes, and if you are handy with electronics you might be able to set that up.  It is not weatherproof like the Elcons, though.

Good luck!

[vinceherman]

because my motorcycle handling skill level is borderline god-like

Aren't we all? 

[kensiko]

Did you consider a Brammo ?

[Richard230]

In my case, I prefer the 110V (actually 122 volts at my home) charging system.  Not only do I not have access to a 240V outlet, but I only use my Zero for day trips and for local utility use within a 50-mile radius of my home.  So I ride it around all day and then return home, plug it in and it is ready to go the next morning.  If I want to go for a longer ride, like to a BMW camping rally 400 miles away in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, which is where I am going this weekend, I take one of my IC motorcycles.  So I really don't have any use for a fast-charging system and prefer the current Zero 120V on-board charger.

If you are concerned about the regen drag in wet weather conditions, you can adjust the custom programming to reduce the regen effect to zero. The program can then be selected by just touching the power mode button on the right handlebar and you can instantly switch from regen drag to coasting and that will let you slow down by only using your brakes.

As far as the battery warranty goes, technology is moving so fast, I kind of doubt that many of us will still have our bikes after 5 years - having bought the latest and greatest electric motorcycle before that.     In any case, Zero's warranty is still better than some Japanese brands, that only have a one year warranty and then you are on your own.

My current Zero is my second one, after having two Electric Motorsport GPR-S bikes.  The first GPR-S only ran for 300 miles before the BMS caught on fire and melted in my garage, while the second one's BMS died and took out the batteries after 1300 miles.  The EMS "warranty" system was not able to repair either bike and they no longer manufacture a production electric motorcycle.

So far, the 2012 Zero that I gave to my daughter has traveled 10K miles and my 2014 S has gone 3500 miles.  Neither bike has suffered a problem that kept it off the road or left me stranded.  I would say that the chassis components will fail or wear out long before the battery will.

[krash7172]

In my case, I prefer the 110V (actually 122 volts at my home) charging system.  Not only do I not have access to a 240V outlet, but I only use my Zero for day trips and for local utility use within a 50-mile radius of my home.  So I ride it around all day and then return home, plug it in and it is ready to go the next morning.  If I want to go for a longer ride, like to a BMW camping rally 400 miles away in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, which is where I am going this weekend, I take one of my IC motorcycles.  So I really don't have any use for a fast-charging system and prefer the current Zero 120V on-board charger.

I am in the same situation. I don't even want / need a power tank. My commute is 30 miles and the Zeros really aren't comfortable for more than a couple hours of riding. Maybe someday the battery technology will get 100+ miles out the power tank and make it worth it. At least then, I could get to my dealership and back!

[Richard230]

In my case, I prefer the 110V (actually 122 volts at my home) charging system.  Not only do I not have access to a 240V outlet, but I only use my Zero for day trips and for local utility use within a 50-mile radius of my home.  So I ride it around all day and then return home, plug it in and it is ready to go the next morning.  If I want to go for a longer ride, like to a BMW camping rally 400 miles away in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, which is where I am going this weekend, I take one of my IC motorcycles.  So I really don't have any use for a fast-charging system and prefer the current Zero 120V on-board charger.

I am in the same situation. I don't even want / need a power tank. My commute is 30 miles and the Zeros really aren't comfortable for more than a couple hours of riding. Maybe someday the battery technology will get 100+ miles out the power tank and make it worth it. At least then, I could get to my dealership and back!

My longest ride has been 140 miles (which included a lot of climbing into and out of the Santa Cruz Mountains and riding up the Pacific Coast Highway), but my bike died a couple of hundred yards from home.  With my power tank, I have no problem riding for 100 miles on a charge and 120 miles is possible if you stay off the freeway and stick to the speed limit on secondary roads.  I can believe Zero's claim of 170 city miles (average speed of 19 mph), but who could sit on the Zero's seat for the 9 hours that it would take to travel that distance?   

[camosoul]

Did you consider a Brammo ?

Right up to the point where I read that it had a transmission and a clutch. Nonsense for an electric. I have a hunch they're planning a big change this year. They better be if they want to stay alive...

So far, the LiveWire thing is looking like a failure in search of an excuse to fail... Par for the course for that brand...

My only remaining concern for the Zero is that I'm 6'4" with a long torso and short legs... Only a test ride can tell me what I need to know on that one.

[camosoul]

If you are concerned about the regen drag in wet weather conditions, you can adjust the custom programming to reduce the regen effect to zero. The program can then be selected by just touching the power mode button on the right handlebar and you can instantly switch from regen drag to coasting and that will let you slow down by only using your brakes.

As far as the battery warranty goes, technology is moving so fast, I kind of doubt that many of us will still have our bikes after 5 years - having bought the latest and greatest electric motorcycle before that.     In any case, Zero's warranty is still better than some Japanese brands, that only have a one year warranty and then you are on your own.

My current Zero is my second one, after having two Electric Motorsport GPR-S bikes.  The first GPR-S only ran for 300 miles before the BMS caught on fire and melted in my garage, while the second one's BMS died and took out the batteries after 1300 miles.  The EMS "warranty" system was not able to repair either bike and they no longer manufacture a production electric motorcycle.

So far, the 2012 Zero that I gave to my daughter has traveled 10K miles and my 2014 S has gone 3500 miles.  Neither bike has suffered a problem that kept it off the road or left me stranded.  I would say that the chassis components will fail or wear out long before the battery will.

These points are of specific interest, thanks for chiming in.