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Author Topic: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller  (Read 2807 times)

s44captain

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2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« on: July 30, 2014, 02:53:56 AM »

I finally took a test ride around town on a 2014S and while it seemed better built and faster than my stock 2012 I liked the lighter weight of my 2012 more so I opted for the size 6 upgrade instead of a new bike. When I got the bike back from Harlan it seemed much faster than the 2014 that I took around town. I'm sure that would be different on the open road but my gosh what a difference! My buddy Eric with a Suzuki 400 swears it's much faster than his. If you own a 2012 and lust after a new SR but don't have an extra 10k floating around get a size 6 Controler and enjoy your "new" bike. I just wish I had done it a year earlier.
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benswing

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 04:30:01 AM »

I totally agree!  It's much more affordable than a new bike and the smaller weight of the 2012 bikes with more power is indeed a fun time!
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tommi

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 04:39:04 AM »

Is the size 6 controller about the same size as the one that's on the S? If not, how easy/hard is it to do the mod? (I've got a 2013 S and am mostly just curious)
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s44captain

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 08:06:35 PM »

It will fit the 2013 too but will require some bracket mods as it is slightly larger. Contact Harlan at Hollywood Electrics for the kit.
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tommi

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 08:58:04 PM »

W00t! Thanks for the info :-)
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nigezero

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 08:53:07 AM »

Just for my clarification, the Type 6 is the bigger (600a) controller, right ? Can I assume that an S or FX which has the 440a controller can be easily retrofitted (putting aside physical constraints)? I had assumed that the motor, wiring and comm's would allow it but wanted to check; S models are selling well here due to availability and I foresee an opportunity to upgrade them. What do they cost ?
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benswing

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 07:59:02 PM »

The Size 6 controller is physically larger than the Size 4 controller and there are some frame modifications on the 2012 bike that is necessary to mount it (if I recall correctly).  My dealer was able to take care of it without issue. 

A couple of years ago Harlan at Hollywood electrics was selling Size 6 controllers for $2,500 and would give you $500 for your Size 4 controller. That is a good place to start if you are seriously considering this upgrade. 

I upgraded when the 2013 bikes came out and this tempered my desire for a new bike.  Except now there is the SR...  ;-)
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DynoMutt

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 10:22:35 PM »

Did you put the SR into sport mode on that test ride or leave it in custom?

If you left it in custom, it was at only 40% torque upper limit and capped at 67MPH.
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oobflyer

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 11:07:48 PM »

With the extra current flying through the drivetrain - how much does it affect range?
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benswing

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 02:14:56 AM »

Most of my SR test ride was in sport mode... of course!

The range is affected, but it depends strongly on how often you accelerate hard.  Basically the sport mode makes more current available, but that doesn't mean you use it. 

For example, on my road trip I would travel at 55mph consistently for most of the day.  I got similar range in Eco and sport mode.  However, it was easier to keep the speed constant in eco mode, and it was easier to conserve charge in eco mode.  I used sport mode for the vast majority of the legs of the trip. 
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Doug S

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 02:41:54 AM »

The range is affected, but it depends strongly on how often you accelerate hard.

Ben, I beg to differ with you. I believe acceleration has little if anything to do with range. Think about it: If you're getting on a freeway on-ramp at 30 mph, and you want to accelerate up to 70, you can do it long and slow, or short and fast. Obviously, accelerating harder will draw more current from the batteries, but you don't need to accelerate for as long. In fact, you can calculate the kinetic energy of you and the bike at 70 mph, subtract the energy of you and the bike at 30, and that's how much energy you need to add to change speed. It doesn't matter how fast you do it! Now that's just a first approximation; higher currents will certainly result in higher losses, so the truth is somewhere in between -- acceleration has SOME effect on battery life, but not very much!

I admit it sounds a bit hard to believe, but I've tested it on my SR several times, and it really does seem to be true. Sometimes on my daily commute I'll accelerate very hard, somedays I'll accelerate much slower, sometimes I'll just ride naturally, but always limit my top speed to 75 mph. I honestly can't see any difference in the results. Day-to-day variations are far bigger.

I think top cruising speed is by far the most critical factor determining range, maybe 80% influence. Amount of regen may be a 10% factor, acceleration rate maybe 5%, and everything else adds up to the last 5%.
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frodus

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 03:10:12 AM »

There is some loss with i^2 R losses.... But what I've seen in my battery testing as more of a factor... Is The more current you draw from a battery.... The less total energy you get out. If you accelerate hard, it will limit the useable energy of a battery. Look at a battery discharge curve between 10C and a 2C one.... The one with 10C sources less total energy in Wh.

I agree on the amount though.... It's not huge... Between 5 and 10 percent.

sebas

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 05:59:43 AM »

During 2012, I tested Zero Ds 2010 for fifteen days and the engine burned. The dealer said the  manufacturer detected a fail and didn't repare before for a vagueness. The change was simply modify some data software, I'm afraid to change something.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 05:56:35 PM by sebas »
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benswing

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 06:02:05 PM »


The range is affected, but it depends strongly on how often you accelerate hard.

Ben, I beg to differ with you...
I'm just going off experience of 21,000 miles with a 2012 Zero S, most of which were done using a size 6 controller.  Clearly top speed makes the biggest difference, but if cruising speed is the same then accelerating using 660amps will use your power faster than 440 amps.   
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NoiseBoy

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Re: 2012 w/ #6 controller vs 2014 w#4 controller
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 12:37:58 AM »

Electric car manufacturers go to great lengths to encourage you to accelerate gently with eco driving meters etc. so I'm sure there is something in it.

There is some debate in the hypermiling community about whether it's better to accelerate hard to overcome the losses through the throttle bodies at small openings but the general consensus is to keep revs low at all times.
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