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[ReeveSteves]

Perhaps this is a question best asked to Zero directly, but I'm curious if anyone knows the dimensions of the Power Tank battery? I'm hoping it's close enough to dimensions of one of the available quick charge options (even with DIY) that one could get the Power Tank bodywork and install a set of quick chargers in the place of it, with a J1772 adapter.

[nil0lab]

19" x 9" x 13" (long by wide by tall) for the 4.4kwh aka 3.9kwh 2011 Zero S.

Larger capacities will of course be larger, and of course they may have changed the dimensions on other models and years.

((Anybody want to buy a 2011 Zero S? It'll go 20 miles at freeway speeds reliably and I've gone 35 miles driving slow and mellow with minimal braking. Has a BMW luftmeister fairing on it at the moment, and more upright bars. And a Corbin seat. Suitable for average to tall male or tall female. It's in San Francisco.))

[aaronzeromoto]

Hi ReeveSteves,

The ZF2.8 Power Pack Module used on the 2014 Zero FX and in the Z-Force Power Tank is approximately 9.5 x 7.5 x 9.75in (HxWxL).  The main body of the Quick Charger is approximately 4.5 x 8.5 x 10 in.  Personally, I would be concerned about heat dissipation of the Quick Charger and the routing of the power cables within that tank assembly.  Stay safe.  Most DIY solutions I have seen have these mounted on a top rack assembly.


Regards,
aaronzeromoto

[motorfiets]

((Anybody want to buy a 2011 Zero S? It'll go 20 miles at freeway speeds reliably and I've gone 35 miles driving slow and mellow with minimal braking. Has a BMW luftmeister fairing on it at the moment, and more upright bars. And a Corbin seat. Suitable for average to tall male or tall female. It's in San Francisco.))

have a picture? how much?

[ReeveSteves]

Hi ReeveSteves,

The ZF2.8 Power Pack Module used on the 2014 Zero FX and in the Z-Force Power Tank is approximately 9.5 x 7.5 x 9.75in (HxWxL).  The main body of the Quick Charger is approximately 4.5 x 8.5 x 10 in.  Personally, I would be concerned about heat dissipation of the Quick Charger and the routing of the power cables within that tank assembly.  Stay safe.  Most DIY solutions I have seen have these mounted on a top rack assembly.


Regards,
aaronzeromoto

Thank you, Aaron. I was not thinking of the Zero quick charger but rather of the possibility of putting some Meanwell supplies together to add a few more kW of charging capacity for real Level 2 access. Charging stations are getting plentiful around here, very often for free, and bumping to something like 5kw of onboard charging really ups the usefulness of opportunity charging. However the HLG-600H-54 is 11 inches long, so even though four of those would fit in the other two dimensions (leading to a total of almost 4kw of charging on the bike) they don't really fit the space. Two RSP-2000-48 units would fit in every dimension other than length. The TDK PFE-1000s will fit perfectly, but they do not offer constant current operation. The SmartCharge-12000 in water cooled with a small radiator and aggressive fan might just barely fit the space, and would obviously offer CHAdeMO level charge performance at reasonable cost, but that would be semi-custom work and would probably require some more specific battery wiring. For the moment this seems like a pipe dream unless I want to do some substantial engineering work.

[remmie]

Hi Guys,

After lurking on the forums for over a month it's time to chip in. For the past month I own a 2014 Zero SR and it's in every way an amazing bike. I use it now for my daily commute of 30 km and I don't even need a recharge at work. usually I have around 60% of charge left at the end of the day.

The mean well HLG-600H does fit in the space (see attached picture, i made some cardboard mockups  ). In the picture there are just 2 but i do think that 4 on top of each other would work. This would give you 1300 (onboard charger) + 4*600 = 3,7 kW of charging power.

I was thinking the same thing, adding charging capacity where the power tank would reside (power charger  ). I even thought of keeping as much as possible of the storage bag by cutting the cavity for the storage bag as well as the storage bag itself so I would at least have a possibility to stowe the motorcycle lock. The added charger would then be just underneath the storage bag.

3.7 kW would be at the very edge of what is possible on a standard 230V household connection over here (230V/50Hz 16A), so maybe for me it's better to use 3 pcs mean well HLG-600H-36 in series. that would give me 1.3+3*0.6 = 3.1 kW of charging power and a recharge time over a little over 3 hours from empty to full. Still A very long lunch but better than having to search a hotel to wait 8 hours it normally takes to fully recharge

[remmie]

This is a front view of the tank removed from the bike. If i would cut it along the red line, the storage area would be about halved but the mean wells would be able to fit there. Because the cavity for the storage bag is slightly tapered, the cut off section would probably just slide in from the top, giving it a proper bottom.

The same could be done to the storage bag itself, so you retain a bit of storage space.

[remmie]

BTW you won't believe how much unused space there is underneath the tank. Hopefully zero will make use of this space for a decent charger someday. Hopefully retrofittable for all (or at least a lot) of zero's

[BSDThw]

Take care the Meanwells get quite hot if making a stack beneath the tank maybe makes some problems (just a thought)

Had a look to the Datasheet (you definitely need a Typ A!)

if the over-temp happens it will not do a reset when the temp drops, so you return after 3h and the bike isn't charged

OVER TEMPERATURE: Shut down o/p voltage, re-power on to recover

The max adjustable voltage is 56.7V this will be a bit lousy (113.4V instate 116V) but if you look to the 
"Test Report: HLG ‐ 600H ‐ 54" on the meanwell page. It says max was 58.02V so it could be OK.

The same with 36V -> 37.8V * 3 => 113.4V but maybe the reality is higher.

Would be nice to see this working. Invisible charger mod

 

[remmie]

113,4 volt actually sounds better to me than 116 Volt  I made a graph for which voltage constitutes how much charge. and 113.4 equals to about 92-93%. I would be very happy to let the onboard charger do the remaining 7% of charge. Sounds safer to me anyway. And if the mean well's do output a little above spec I think I wil still trim them to max 114 Volt for the same reason.

The onboard charger would also be on the whole time, so at least if the mean well's overheat the onboard charger will have put some juice into the battery. 

The mean well's are pretty efficient, the specs say 96%. So If was using 3 of them that would be 4%*1800W = 72 Watt of total heat generation.
They would still be somewhat exposed to the outside as you can reach up between the frame and the tank assembly and look right at where the mean well's would be.  Also they will be lying on the bracket for the power tank which also dissipates heat to the frame.

You're quite right about using the A type. those are the ones I was looking for.

[BSDThw]

I have the HLG-320s outside therefore I know the are hot.

It is a good idea to set your own system lower I did the same with my 2012 charging project. You have to reduce the current when getting to the end therefore this match the nature and the onboard do the last some % if even necessary.

You can do one trick. I only know for sure at my 2013 FX the quick charger has two trigger signals. My 2012 had only one (but two separate charger plugs )
I haven't test is with my 2013 but tested it with the 2012 I can let you know if it works with may 2013 in the same way.

The control signal at my 2012 are stimulated with high impedance /10K-20KOhm with 3.3V to battery -. This 3.3V will wake up the BMS/bike and I guess it will do the same like on my 2012. If the bike is ready for charge the bike pulls the 3.3V to battery minus  -> 0.something Voltage.

This starts the Delta-qs. The idea is to trigger this control because if your battery is out of balance the bike will switch off (release the pin and your HW pulls it back to 3.3V) Therefore you can be sure no single cell can top the max voltage
You only need a small HW to switch the chargers off when the BMS release this line.

[remmie]

Do you know which of the two pins has to be pulled to 3.3V or does it require both to be pulled up. If that's the case i assume each needs it's own pull-up resistor of 10-20kOhms.

Here's a picture of the quick charge connector. It's an Anderson SBS75XBRN. I got the connector and the pins from Mouser.com
The big left contact is the battery+ and the one on the right is the battery-
The 2 smaller control pins are in the center.


 

[DynoMutt]

It would seem like that void to the right of the spacer units for testing capacity would be great for holding a J1772 paddle receptacle that can be pulled out when needed?  It would probably be a good idea to have good ventilation in there to dissipate the heat those things are sure to generate.  If they are intended for rack-mounting, they should pass heat straight upward, so having a flip-top cover for that section like described with the postings related to the case storage cover mod might be applicable.  Oh, what do I know, I'm just an IT guy.  Take the suggestions made by me with a grain of salt.

[BSDThw]

I haven't tested it up to now at my 2013, but I know the FX 2013 has the ability to use two Delta-q charger. The bike will tread each separate as much as I see.

If you know how you can read through serial interface and it will display the different charger it can handle.

ZERO MBB> charhger
****************************************
*             Charger Data             *
****************************************


***********  Charger #0  *************
  - Charger Type              : Meanwell
  - Attached                  :       No
  - Enabled                   :       No
  - CAN-Capable               :      Yes
...

***********  Charger #1  *************
  - Charger Type              :   DeltaQ
  - Attached                  :       No
  - Enabled                   :      Yes
  - CAN-Capable               :       No

***********  Charger #2  *************
  - Charger Type              :   DeltaQ
  - Attached                  :       No
  - Enabled                   :      Yes
  - CAN-Capable               :       No

***********  Charger #3  *************
  - Charger Type              :  CHAdeMO
  - Attached                  :       No
  - Enabled                   :       No
  - CAN-Capable               :      Yes
    RX
...

so each pin should work for a different Delta-q. For your mod it don't matter it is only important to get the information if a cell reach its max voltage to cut off the charging.
I have seen the HLG 600 has an on/off input, this is pretty awesome for your project.

Eager to see what you will create.
 

[remmie]

Hi,

Tried the 3.3 V to get the charging going today but not much luck.

I used 2 AA batteries at 1.6 Volt in series to create the 3.3V supply and then used a 10kOhm resistor and connected them to the bike. minus of the cell pack to B- and the resistor to one of the pins (tried both, same result)
The display does wake up, goes through it's startup sequence where the speedo will display 111,222,333,444....999 and also the green charge LED lights up steadily throughout the start-up sequence.
The green charge led then goes out for 3 seconds, and then starts to flash rapidly for 10 seconds and then lights up continuously. The clock in the display is also on continuously.
The voltage however remains at 3.3V after the resistor, the bike doesn't pull the line low and also the contractor doesn't engage to enable charging.

Could this be due to no charge voltage being present (100+ Volt between B- and B+) ?

I don;t have the mean well's at this time but i do have a couple of TDK FPS1000-48 power supplies to charge the pack.
they output 113.4 Volts when adjusted for maximum voltage so that would be around 85% which is fine for me.
These supplies would not be for permanent mounting on the bike but for longer trips and then charge while getting a coffee or a sandwich.
If I use the onboard charger to engage the contractor and use the TDK's to bulk charge I would have 1.3+1+1 = 3.3 kW of charging power.

I also made a small circuit with an AVR microcontroller which measures the battery voltage and do 1 of 3 things.
If the battery voltage is below 98 Volts, which means either not connected, contactor not engaged or charge level below 10% the circuit does nothing.
If the battery voltage is between 98 and 112 Volt first wait 15 seconds (while flashing a LED) and then engage the 2 TDK supplies via a relay (they have on-off control). This should allow the onboard charger to properly start-up.
If the battery voltage goes over 112 Volt the relais disengages, also disengaging the TDK supplies, a LED (charge complete) will light up and the microcontroller is brought into an endless loop (only resettable by cutting and re-applying power or a rest button.

Could it also be that the 2013-2014 charger uses CAN-bus to communicate with the Delta-Q ? Zero does have 2 versions of the delta-Q charger, one for 2011-2012 and one for 2013-2014.