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[DynoMutt]

Hello, so looking at the fact that Tesla is claiming that they will not pursue royalties on their patents and that they are supposedly open to being implemented by others, has anyone looked at what would be required to make an adapter from Tesla Supercharger DC -> 96V Anderson connector that can be connected directly to the 2013/14 Zero?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the inline device would have to negotiate a charge rate with the supercharger device and then pass the pins through over the line to the Anderson connector.  If such a device could be devised, what would the practical limits on its use be with the present 2013/14 Zero battery and controller setup?

[DynoMutt]

To follow up, would it be possible to negotiate a rate low enough to be safe without a problem?  And, if not, what other problems could happen?  Heat, for example.  I have to wonder if perhaps this is like connecting a fire hose to a straw and running water through...

[DynoMutt]

What's the limit?  Like 1C?

[DynoMutt]

Also, what's the handshake and negotiation like? Us there encryption? (DMCA?)

[protomech]

I believe Tesla's 135 kW supercharger output is up to 400V 335A. This can supply significantly more current than CHAdeMO (up to 500V 125A), though in both protocols the vehicle and charger negotiate a safe current that may be significantly below the maximum.

There's a thread on the tesla forums where some users are digging into the supercharger protocol. I haven't read it but you may find it enlightening.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19591-Supercharger-protocol-for-diy-CHAdeMO-adapter

I don't know the lowest voltage that the Tesla Supercharger (which appears to consist of multiples of the 10 kW onboard charger, i.e. 120 kW = 12 OBCs, 135 kW = probably > 14 OBCs) supports. On the one hand, I can't imagine Tesla has any desire to build a lower-voltage vehicle like our motorcycles; on the other hand, Tesla may well have been thinking ahead to the future when they need to charge a lower voltage vehicle.

Zero charges the 2013-2014 batteries at approximately 1C (125A for ZF14.2). Smaller battery packs (like the 50Ah ZF5.7) are not charged more quickly, which indicates that the maximum safe charge rate is likely around 1C.

Overall, I think the Zero batteries are probably too low voltage to use with the Supercharger, and the maximum current is similarly not enough to truly exploit the Supercharger's capabilities - charging at 12.5 kW from a 135 kW-capable interface is a little disappointing.


What if a pack chemistry with higher charge acceptance was chosen?

It would be possible to construct a 10 kWh type pack out of lithium titanate cells - for example, 7 of these 1.4 kWh modules:
http://www.altairnano.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/60Ah-DataSheet.pdf

This would be an extremely heavy pack - at approximately 45% of the Zero's pack-level density, it would weigh in at 192 kg = 420 pounds, or about 200 pounds more than the ZF11.4 pack. Pack configuration would be 70s, ~160V nominal 60 Ah. The modules can accept a 360A continuous charge, so connected to the Tesla Supercharger they could charge at up to ~60 kW, or adding about 35 highway miles in 5 minutes (50% charge).

Note this is not really a faster charge rate than CHAdeMO, which at any rate is more common than the Tesla Supercharger network. At 100-150 miles between stations, too, a 10 kWh pack is not large enough to tour on much of Tesla's network.

It would perhaps be more interesting to see a streamlined car with a 25 kWh 1000 pound pack. With an aero-focused design and small frontal area, highway range could exceed 150 miles, and similarly to the bike pack it would be able to add a 50% charge in about 5 minutes (900 miles per hour, about 2.5x as fast as Model S).

Typical usage pattern here would be to drive for 1.5 hours then stop to charge for 7 to 8 minutes.

I'm not sure that's really more convenient than Model S, which would need to stop after a 1.5 hour drive for approximately 20 minutes .. or more likely, would drive for 2-2.5 hours then stop for 30 minutes.

[BSDThw]

Pack configuration would be 70s, ~160V nominal 60 Ah.

Our/Zeros problem is the Sevcon is built for max 116V. Having a look to the future  "new PDF" will help to go to 150V (*not yet available)
http://www.sevcon.com/media/2461/Gen4%20Aug%202013%20web.pdf 
Gen4 size 8 and 10 are a bit oversized?

[protomech]

Right, that wouldn't be for the Zeros, just a quick example of a 10 kWh lithium titanate pack that would be available today. Better yet would be a 333V 30Ah pack (140s) that could be charged at 3-4C from CHAdeMO or 6C from Tesla SC.

Maybe that'd work well in a touring Harley..

[firepower]

what controllers do mission and lightning and tesla use?

[Doug S]

As an EE, my response to the original question ("Can a Supercharger to Zero adapter be built?") would be "of course it can be built, but what would it cost, how long would it take, and what you gain by doing so?".

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of Tesla, and their Supercharger approach makes total sense for them. But our bikes have tiny batteries by comparison (so we don't need the monster currents the Tesla does), CHAdeMO is already much more widely available than Supercharger is, and there are already factory and homebrew options available for CHAdeMO.

Also, Tesla has said they won't lock up any technology as proprietary, but does that mean they'll actually let other vehicles use their Supercharger stations? Two very different things.

I'm a tinkerer by nature too, but for me, I wouldn't re-invent this wheel. There's just not enough meat on the bone to make it worthwhile.

[scZero]

Can't be done without VERY expensive hardware that includes a special charging infrastructure in the car let alone a motorcycle with a very small KWh pack, same points Doug made above.   The 60kw Model-S's didn't have Supercharging capability, mostly to keep the cost down but one can't get the 60kw Model-S, they discontinued it.  You also had to upgrade to get special hardware installed in the 60kw car to allow it which cost $$$.

The Tesla Roadsters can't even utilize it, if it was possible it would have been done by now either by Tesla or Roadster enthusiasts.  Not worth it for what you're gaining, for the Roadster I'm happy with 70-80AMP charging. 

If you want to charge your zero up faster, just pick up multiple quick chargers.

[protomech]

what controllers do mission and lightning and tesla use?

Mission builds their own. Tesla likely also builds their own.

I think Lightning is using a Rinehart Motion controller. Can't find a source for this. Take with grain of salt.

Can't be done without VERY expensive hardware that includes a special charging infrastructure in the car let alone a motorcycle with a very small KWh pack, same points Doug made above.   The 60kw Model-S's didn't have Supercharging capability, mostly to keep the cost down but one can't get the 60kw Model-S, they discontinued it.  You also had to upgrade to get special hardware installed in the 60kw car to allow it which cost $$$.

The 40 kWh Model S was discontinued, the few 40 kWh Model S vehicles that were delivered were software-disabled 60 kWh vehicles. Some speculation that the 40 kWh model was only made available to satisfy DOE funding, and once Tesla paid back those loans it killed the low-volume model.

The 60 kWh Model S does require an additional $2000 at time of purchase to activate Supercharging, or $2500 at a future date. This makes the price gap to the 85 kWh Model S quite small, at $8000.

The Tesla Roadsters can't even utilize it, if it was possible it would have been done by now either by Tesla or Roadster enthusiasts.  Not worth it for what you're gaining, for the Roadster I'm happy with 70-80AMP charging.

Most of the speculation that I have seen is that Tesla's "something special" for Roadster owners this year will be access to the Supercharger network, possibly coupled with a battery upgrade to use the most recent cells (~80 kWh, same weight). This will require new inlets and possibly some additional communication hardware installed onboard, but Tesla is certainly capable of doing so. The Roadster is very close to the same battery voltage as the Model S, but the older and lower-capacity battery likely was never designed to accept charge rates as quickly as the Model S.

[DynoMutt]

Can't be done without VERY expensive hardware that includes a special charging infrastructure in the car let alone a motorcycle with a very small KWh pack, same points Doug made above.   The 60kw Model-S's didn't have Supercharging capability, mostly to keep the cost down but one can't get the 60kw Model-S, they discontinued it.  You also had to upgrade to get special hardware installed in the 60kw car to allow it which cost $$$.

The Tesla Roadsters can't even utilize it, if it was possible it would have been done by now either by Tesla or Roadster enthusiasts.  Not worth it for what you're gaining, for the Roadster I'm happy with 70-80AMP charging. 

If you want to charge your zero up faster, just pick up multiple quick chargers.

The great thing about the CHAdeMO infrastructure is that one doesn't need to haul a large quantity of additional hardware around to charge up.  "just pick up multiple quick chargers" is a massive PITA, converting AC to DC, just to charge up.

The Tesla charger is able to negotiate several different rates, AC and DC.  If some device could negotiate a safe DC flow, then it could go right into the battery.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[dc5dd]

Just an FYI tesla does sell a supercharger to chademo adapter.  I guess at least there is hope but aaronzero already stated that some chademo stations will not work due to the low voltage of the zero.

[DynoMutt]

That's not true.  Please provide evidence if you believe I am mistaken.

Tesla sells a CHAdeMO to Tesla plug adapter.  That is CHAdeMO station -> Tesla vehicle.

What I'm asking about is Tesla station -> CHAdeMO vehicle.

[dc5dd]

That's not true.  Please provide evidence if you believe I am mistaken.

Tesla sells a CHAdeMO to Tesla plug adapter.  That is CHAdeMO station -> Tesla vehicle.

What I'm asking about is Tesla station -> CHAdeMO vehicle.

I agreed, all I'm saying is if that is possible than supercharger station to chademo plug might also be possible.