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Author Topic: Battery life and charging  (Read 1726 times)

MostlyBonkers

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Battery life and charging
« on: May 29, 2014, 04:31:19 AM »

I struggle to see how Zero can make claims of 300k+ miles before the batteries reduce to 80% health. I also don't see why their advice is to keep the bike plugged into the mains all the time when parked up, even over a long winter break.

My experience to date with Li-ion is with laptops for the most part. They are left plugged in 99% of the time and they're dead after 3 years. The charging circuit just keeps topping them up every few hours or so and it kills the battery. On the other hand my iPhone gets recharged every night and gets chance to do regular full cycle charges. After 2-3 years the battery is well below 80% health. In fact it's end of life.

Even for the most hardcore commuter doing 30,000 miles a year we're talking about at least ten years of use to reach 300,000 miles. I can't imagine any Li-ion cell lasting that long. What's so special about Zero's battery tech and can their claims be believed?  I'd hate to be looking at a battery replacement every 3-5 years.
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firepower

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2014, 04:49:46 AM »

I think short life is due to li-ion being fully charged and discharged, 0% to 100%, to get longer life EV only us between about 10% to 90%,  that's why battery rating of max and usable are different.

Real life experience with Tesla has shown better than  predicted life of battery,  predicted is based on worse case senarion  and extreme conditions.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 05:00:44 AM by firepower »
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zerotracer

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2014, 05:28:28 AM »

Many battery-powered electric trucks are over 10 years old today, and they run every day.
I don´t think the Li-ion quality in the notebooks is so expensive as in the Automotive industry.

It´s like a tyre is not just a tyre, there is different qualities.

I have a battery powered shaving machine there is at least 15 years old, and it still working.

A normal lead/acid battery in a car has a normal life of 7-10 years if it´s a good quality
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Richard230

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 06:32:18 AM »

I have a rechargeable battery-powered First Alert brand lantern in my garage that I keep plugged in all of the time and it still works after 30 years.  Of course it probably is powered by a NiCad battery, though.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 06:48:15 AM »

After chatting with the engineer of a prototype electric scooter, it seems that battery management computers in combination with limiting the charge range as described above is what makes modern automotive batteries last a long time. The Zero app, she pointed out, shows the maximum difference in cel voltage as a few millivolts, and this balancing is part of the conditioning. I think much higher QA/QC standards driven by Nissan and Tesla are also helping out considerably.

In short: computers in the battery make the difference, ironically, from batteries in your computer. :)
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trikester

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2014, 10:10:42 AM »

I remember reading that the chargers, Zero uses, look at the battery every 72 hours after having fully charged it. If it needs topping after 72 hours the charger turns on and brings it back up. then 72 hours later it checks it again.

The 2010 bikes had a much higher parasitic drain when parked and off. Therefore the battery dropped more quickly, when parked, than the later bikes do. Just by luck I happened to be next to my 2010 (when it had been parked for some time) when I saw the charger click on to top off the battery. I thought; wow, it really does that.  8)

Trikester
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Richard230

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 08:28:35 PM »

I have seen my charger come on after almost exactly 24 hours after completing charging from the previous ride.  When it has finished charging after a ride, the display reads 98%.  Then one day later, the charger will come back on and continue charging for a few minutes until the display reads 100%, then go into balancing mode, before shutting off again.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

MostlyBonkers

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 10:29:41 PM »

Thanks to you all for your comments, I found them very interesting. I have heard of Automotive Grade batteries and I guess the boffins know what they're doing. If we can assume that the battery packs will last a good ten years then the point becomes mute. At the rate of development I imagine you'll be able to buy a lighter, cheaper battery pack in ten years. No doubt it will store more energy too. Long term owners will see it as a worthwhile upgrade.
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trikester

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 11:20:38 PM »

Save your present battery - the Smithsonian will want it. Probably display it near the Wright Flyer and a horseless carriage as a; "can't imagine how primitive we were" statement.  ;D

Trikester
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protomech

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2014, 01:40:38 AM »

Battery life will be heavily influenced by the type of cells used and how they are used.

As one counterpoint, consider this survey of the Tesla Roadster: in production from 2008 to 2012. 126 owners surveyed, averaging 26k miles on the vehicle.
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/tesla-roadster/PIA-Roadster-Battery-Study.pdf

Some interesting points:
* 23 of 122 vehicles have had their battery packs replaced by Tesla, 18.9%. Battery pack replacement could be done for many reasons, including single cell failure, electronic component failure, or simply easier to diagnose a fault. The packs may be returned to service as refurb units with the failed component replaced.
* Tesla originally warrantied the packs to retain 70% capacity after 5 years IIRC
* Data shows roughly 1.5% capacity lost every 10k miles, extrapolating out to 15% loss after 100k miles (~400 cycles)
* Pack replacement does not seem to statistically affect capacity loss
* Battery age has little correlation with capacity loss (see p.10), with samples ranging from 2 to 4.5 years
* Climate does not appear to correlate with capacity loss (Roadster is liquid-cooled)

Another interesting counterpoint is the air-cooled battery in the Nissan LEAF, which is probably closer to the passively-cooled batteries in the Zero bikes. The 2011-2012 LEAF battery appears to be quite sensitive to operating temperature;
http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss
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Burton

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2014, 01:53:27 AM »

Since I am going to be shrouding the front of my bike in fiberglass thus blocking the wind from the battery case should I add venting to cool the battery pack down? And if so where should I aim it?

I ask because I have been told if the battery gets hot on a hot day charging is really limited. Not directly associated with battery life but I do want to be able to keep my pack cool if I can. D

Does anyone know if there is a fan in the battery pack to circulate the air? I know some sealed chargers sometimes have fans in them to keep the air circulating.
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trikester

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2014, 10:27:33 AM »

No fans inside any Zero battery packs.

Trikester
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Doug S

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2014, 03:44:05 AM »

As an EE with a fair amount of experience with rechargeable batteries, battery life is mostly dependent on 1) the specific type and design of battery and 2) how the battery is treated.

For example, a fairly new 'flavor' of Li-ion battery is LiFePO4, Lithium-iron-phosphate. It has only half the energy density of other Li-ion formulations, but can easily offer ten times the cycle life, and is far more rugged in high-temperature environments. It's not going to see much use in EVs, however, because of its lower energy density...an 85kWH battery pack would weigh twice as much, and take up twice as much space, as the one in the Tesla. However, even among a specific chemistry (I believe the Zeros use a Lithium Manganese battery, right guys?) there are considerable variations based on anode/cathode configuration, electrolyte, etc. Zero has done a ton of research into all of those specifics, and have specified one that they're comfortable rating at 2500 cycles, and warrantying for five years.

But you can kill just about any battery very fast if you abuse it. There are several things batteries "dislike" (by which I mean you'll shorten their life if you do it): too rapid charging or discharging, over-charging or over-discharging, high temperature operation or storage, sitting for a long time in a discharged state, mechanical distress. All of these battery "dislikes" turn into "hates" depending on degree -- you may get 5000 cycles on your battery pack using the 1/8C onboard charger, which might be reduced to 4000 cycles if you charge by CHAdeMO at 1C, or maybe only 5 cycles if you were foolish enough to rig up a 10C charger. Similarly, I try to recharge before I get below 30% SoC to maximize battery life; if you let the bike get below 10% very often you'll impact battery life at least to some degree; if you go completely down to 0% you'll definitely sacrifice a lot of battery life (ALTHOUGH it may not be possible to take a Zero to a true 0% SoC; the engineers probably built in some safety factor for precisely that reason).

Many batteries can be charged quickly, and safely, but to minimize the impact on battery life, it's best to use a very smart charger with at least a three-stage charging algorithm. If the battery is very discharged, a very low charging current is typically used to revive the battery until its voltage is out of the "nearly dead" range. Then the charging current can be ramped up, until it reaches its maximum, which is often the famous "1C" rate that we often see. This is called the "bulk charging" phase and it's where the great majority of charging of the battery occurs. But as the battery gets near full charge, somewhere near 90% SoC or so, the voltage reaches a value beyond which you don't want to charge, at which the charger usually switches to constant voltage mode, and the current tapers off as the battery tops off. That explains why you'll often see a statement that a battery can be quick-charged to 90% capacity in an hour, two hours to get to 100%. When the charging current drops below a preset value in constant voltage mode, typically the charger will drop down a couple of volts and maintain a "trickle charge" voltage to keep the battery fully-charged as long as it remains on the charger.

The Zero's battery is clearly designed to accommodate quick-charging, since Zero sells a CHAdeMO adapter. As long as you don't try to charge it faster than 1C, if you use a charger that doesn't overcharge it, it never sees very high temperatures, and you don't routinely discharge it to very low levels, you should have no problem getting the rated life out of the battery.
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dkw12002

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Re: Battery life and charging
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 04:02:05 AM »

Cynical me. When I see very long-lived products, I just figure whoever came up with that doesn't plan on being around at that time. I used to come up with some fantastic long-range plans in my job. Then again, I knew I would not be around in 2 years too. Ha.
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