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[colevalleydave]

Hi all,  I've been a frequent lurker on these boards for 2+ yrs, appreciating the exchange of information between intelligent helpful riders, but I haven't posted anything until now.  I have ~3K miles on my 2012 DS and am very happy with it but for work I'll soon need to move to a high rise apartment building for the next year which includes a parking space but with no electrical outlet.  So...

Q: Will I do irreparable damage to the bike/battery/system if I only charge it infrequently when it gets near depleted?

Context:  I will have a very short commute - about a mile - and everything I need will be within a few miles (very urban living in midtown Atlanta)  It's the perfect bike for this urban existence so I'd prefer not to go back to an ICE bike if I don't have to.  I have places I can charge it when needed, but plugging it in constantly when not in use (per the manual's instructions) isn't an option. 

Thanks in advance!

[scZero]

Zero says to plug in when not in use for couple of reasons:

1) to prevent the battery pack from completely draining down to 0 state of charge which could brick the pack.
2) to allow the battery pack to balance.  Charging and discharging without allowing the bike sit at 100% for some time to allow it to balance (sitting on a charger for anywhere from 1/2 hour to a couple of days depending on how out of balance it is)

There's nothing wrong with leaving the bike off for some time, especially if you had a pretty decent charge (50-100%).  And if you turn on the key and see its down to 33% I'd charge it back up.

The issue is that if something is draining the pack on the bike,such as a vampire drain, you could brick the pack.   And if you're really worried you can always pull the battery t-handle cut out.  That way nothing can pull voltage from the pack.

[benswing]

Here is some information from a different source.  This is from Motorola's knowledge base about their lithium batteries  regarding shipping and long term storage.

Regarding an motorcycle, you just need to make sure it is not left at a very low state of charge for a month or more.  If you live in a place like San Francisco, that shouldn't be an issue. 

http://community.psion.com/knowledge/w/knowledgebase/lithium-battery-pack-storage.aspx
" - Batteries should be stored at the optimum storage state of charge which is between 30% and 40%.
 - Avoid storing battery packs at either full state of charge low state of charge. Batteries stored at full state of charge will age faster and batteries stored at low state of charge can cause cell damage and activation of low cell lockout level which can permanently disable the battery.
 - Storage longer than 6 months is not recommended for Lithium Ion battery packs. Where conditions require longer term storage then a regular scheduled maintenance plan should be implemented to ensure that the battery packs are kept at the optimum state of charge. The maintenance plan should include periodic testing of the battery stated of charger and brief charging where required to maintain optimum state of charge."

[NoiseBoy]

The only issue i can see is your bike being unable to balance correctly.  Your best bet would probably be to buy one of Electric Cowboy's cables and then you could check the pack every few months to see if you have any cells out of whack.  It would then be a case of leaving it plugged in for a couple of days, maybe when you are out of town for a few days?

Experience has shown that lithium packs are generally more resilient than the factorys predicted

[scZero]

Also zero had a case where the BMB had a bug and did the wrong thing back in the earlier bikes (2009 and earlier) where if it wasn't plugged in and around 50% SOC that it would pull voltage from one half (good side) of the pack to save and balance the other unbalanced side.  And it ended up draining and killing the pack. 

My guess is that Zero felt safer saying just plug it in.   Tesla said and says that as well, especially when the Roadster's were bricking.  People left them unplugged for months to find the the battery was dead and unrecoverable.  They somehow forgot that the pump for the cooling system would run every day to keep the pack circulated.  Tesla should have known and put a safety mechanism in there like they learned and have in the model S, but you learn form your mistakes.

[colevalleydave]

Thanks to all for the feedback.  I think it's worth the risk to try it out.  At this point I'll try anything to not have to sit in August Atlanta traffic with a 1 liter ICE blowing heat up my full leather gear!

[trikester]

The earlier Zero bikes, like my 2010 DS, had a much higher parasitic load when they were sitting in the off state. Therefore, I have to keep my 2010 plugged in. The instructions are to not leave it unplugged for more than 2 weeks or the battery could be drained beyond recovery. By 2012 they had greatly reduced the constant drain on the battery by designing a better automatic "sleep" mode that disconnects more of the circuitry when not being used. I don't know whether this also applies to the 2011's or not.

The 2012's, '13's, & 14's can be left unplugged far longer than the earlier bikes. This probably accounts for the number of 2010's that have been reported on this forum as having been purchased used and the battery was shot.

Trikester

[scZero]

The earlier Zero bikes, like my 2010 DS, had a much higher parasitic load when they were sitting in the off state. Therefore, I have to keep my 2010 plugged in.

I wonder if this a a bike to bike variation, I have minimal parasitic load and seems like none.  I've left my 2010 Zero unplugged at about 2/3rd to 3/4ths SOC / charge state and  when I turned it back on in 3-4 weeks  it was very close to where I left it.

I really don't like keeping my Zero plugged in all the time, LiPo cells don't like 100% SOC.  They also don't like low SOC, say down around 10-15%.  Hence why the Tesla Roadster and Model S has a Standard mode charge that charges the pack up to 84% SOC, it also will not allow you to go past the last 20% SOC.  This is for pack / cell longevity.  If you need the extra range you can charge up to 100% SOC and also access the lower 20% in a mode called Range mode.  However whenever I charge at 100% SOC I immediatly drive off so that its not sitting at the High SOC and want to get it down to 85%.   

When you have access to a larger pack its easy to manage the pack better for longevity, however with the Zero, at least with my 4.4KW pack is very tough since you're dependant on the full packs capacity to get you around.   The Nissan Leaf's are in the same boat, they have to always do 100% full charges and they always seem to run down to turtle mode which is the lower 10% in order to get 70-75 miles range out of the pack.  I get 185 miles range on an 84% SOC charge and 240 miles on a 100% charge in my Tesla Roadster.  My daily commute is 70 miles round trip so it works really well, Roadster sits when I get home from work at 62% SOC then charges up 3 hours before I head off to work.

[scZero]

The earlier Zero bikes, like my 2010 DS, had a much higher parasitic load when they were sitting in the off state. Therefore, I have to keep my 2010 plugged in.

I wonder if this a a bike to bike variation, I have minimal parasitic load and seems like none.  I've left my 2010 Zero unplugged at about 2/3rd to 3/4ths SOC / charge state and  when I turned it back on in 3-4 weeks  it was very close to where I left it.

I really don't like keeping my Zero plugged in all the time, LiPo cells don't like 100% SOC.  They also don't like low SOC, say down around 10-15%.  Hence why the Tesla Roadster and Model S has a Standard mode charge that charges the pack up to 84% SOC, it also will not allow you to go past the last 20% SOC.  This is for pack / cell longevity.  If you need the extra range you can charge up to 100% SOC and also access the lower 20% in a mode called Range mode.  However whenever I charge at 100% SOC I immediatly drive off so that its not sitting at the High SOC and want to get it down to 85%.   

When you have access to a larger pack its easy to manage the pack better for longevity, however with the Zero, at least with my 4.4KW pack is very tough since you're dependant on the full packs capacity to get you around.   The Nissan Leaf's are in the same boat, they have to always do 100% full charges and they always seem to run down to turtle mode which is the lower 10% in order to get 70-75 miles range out of the pack.  I get 185 miles range on an 84% SOC charge and 240 miles on a 100% charge in my Tesla Roadster.  My daily commute is 70 miles round trip so it works really well, Roadster sits when I get home from work at 62% SOC then charges up 3 hours before I head off to work in the morning.  I let it sit for 30 hour to balance the pack and then drive off pulling down the SOC to where the pack is really happy, 50%.  Over the weekend I let the pack sit around 50-60% SOC if I know I'm not going to be driving it.
[/quote]

[trikester]

I wonder if this a a bike to bike variation, I have minimal parasitic load and seems like none.  I've left my 2010 Zero unplugged at about 2/3rd to 3/4ths SOC / charge state and  when I turned it back on in 3-4 weeks  it was very close to where I left it.

It may be. I was going by what I was told by Zero when I bought my 2012 DS early that year. As I recall they said that the new bikes would go into an automatic "sleep" mode after sitting in the off state for some number of minutes (just like my computer). They also said it had not been publicly announced as a feature at that time (I assume it is common knowledge now).

If I'm wrong about this I hope someone from Zero will reply with the correct information.

Trikester

[scZero]

Zero employees I heard are prohibited by the company policy to post in these forums unfortunately. 

[protomech]

There are a couple Zero employees that post here (and other elmoto forums).

[Richard230]

You will never see a BMW employee post on an internet forum.  I believe that they have been told that they will go blind if they look at a BMW enthusiast forum.  (Likely from all of the manufacturing and design decision complaints.)

My BMW dealer tells me that the factory tells them that "BMW makes the perfect motorcycle and the customer knows nothing" - Besides, "they all do that".    

[trikester]

[There are a couple Zero employees that post here (and other elmoto forums)./quote]

Yes, there are (or were) a few at Zero who can post on this forum. Other employees are restricted.

Trikester

[scZero]

I actually like the culture where employees of a company post, educate, and give customers direct insight on how to make their product perform at its best as well as how to maintain and support it.  Dealers and even the company itself can drop the ball there leaving big gaps / holes / disconnects.  I also can see if an employee posts and says something that the company doesn't want or that shouldn't have released, even, possibly if the posts become heated or emotional how it could backfire.

All this is solved by posting as anonymous under a catchy cool 'n cleaver screen-name