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Author Topic: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project  (Read 6498 times)

trikester

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2013, 01:43:21 AM »

Thanks Doc. I think we all agreed that the Delta Q can run off a DC input. My position was to run the DC directly into the battery with the proper enable and shutdown control circuits and not use the Delta Q or other chargers that would not operate below their set power level, since solar panels output power capability varies so much through the day. My method would take advantage of the self current limiting characteristics of solar cells and eliminate a power converter entirely (if the panel array voltage was high enough). If a lower voltage solar array was used then a non-current limiting, very simple DC/DC boost converter could be used that would run on any supplied power out of the panel. Basically delivering to the battery what ever power was available from the solar array.

One thing your fine demonstration did not answer was the start-up requirements of the Delta Q. I experienced this problem when I found that the 650 watt charger in my FX would not start when powered by a a sine wave inverter type gas generator that was rated 800 W continuous and 850 W surge. The bike's charger continually tried to start and I could hear the solenoid or something clicking but the charger would not run. I'm thinking the same thing might happen when driven by other sources limited close to the required power. There must be a surge requirement of the Delta Q when it tries to start. Can you look at Delta Q start-up input current on a scope when supplied by your DC source? That would tell us alternative power source guys a lot about what we need in terms of source capability.

Trikester
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kcoplan

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2013, 03:08:06 AM »

Quote
One thing your fine demonstration did not answer was the start-up requirements of the Delta Q. I experienced this problem when I found that the 650 watt charger in my FX would not start when powered by a a sine wave inverter type gas generator that was rated 800 W continuous and 850 W surge. The bike's charger continually tried to start and I could hear the solenoid or something clicking but the charger would not run.

Trikester -- Do you know if the 2013 XU uses the same charger as the FX?  I use a "modified sine wave" inverter to run my '12 S Delta Q charger from solar panels and a battery bank, and it has worked fine.  My wife bought a '13 XU last month, and when I tried to plug it into the same (1800w) inverter (No, not at the same time), it would not charge.  I have not tried again, since I dont want to damage anything on my wife's bike.  But I am wondering if the '13 charger has some problem with the "modified sine wave" (basically pulses of DC) that causes the same problem you are having.

--Karl
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protomech

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2013, 03:22:10 AM »

The 2013 XU and 2013 FX should use the same charger. Source: educated guess.
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trikester

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 11:33:31 AM »

I agree with protomech. I would be very surprised if the XU and FX were not the same charger. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who has experienced this start-up problem with this charger using power inverters. My generator isn't even modified sine, it is supposed to be a pure sine output (I haven't looked at it, however).

On my 1kW Delta Q in my 2010 DS I had to go up to a 1600 W inverter type generator to get it to operate. That is what I used on my 2010 Utah camp & ride week. A 1200 W didn't do the job.

One thing I have also wondered: Is the FX / XU charger also made by Delta Q or is this 650 W charger another manufacturer?

My memory isn't clear on this but I seem to remember that I asked Zero, at some point, if I could buy the 650W  charger that is in the FX and was told no (make no jokes about a 78 year old brain and memory.  ;)

Maybe Biff will weigh in on these questions.

Trikester
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eyeinsky

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2013, 04:24:01 AM »

If I had too I guess my 6500w Generac storm backup power with the Hubble plug 220V connected to my the dual Delta Q setup would do the trick pretty fast. She will run for 12 hrs on 5 gal of gas. So a .75 gal per charge 3KW cycle is not too bad. It will cost more than plug into the wall but when your out extension cord reach its good cheaper option. Solar/wind is good but not so practical I guess.

Jerry   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 04:30:06 AM by eyeinsky »
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NoiseBoy

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2013, 05:59:17 AM »

I have never done the math but would a modern generator charging a Zero still do better gas mileage than an ICE bike?
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protomech

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2013, 06:43:21 AM »

Depends.

Gas engines are typically most efficient - in terms of kinetic energy delivered per volume of fuel consumed - when sized so that they're running near maximum load.

Unfortunately, it appears you must upsize the generator to handle the draw. The EU2000i would probably be fine for the 2012 1 kW charger or a 2013 650 W charger, but perhaps not the 2013 1.3 kW charger.

For example: Honda EU2000i claims a full 0.95 gallon tank will deliver 4 hours of runtime @ 100% (1600W) = 6.7 kWh delivered/gallon, 9.6 hours runtime @ 25% (400W) = 4.0 kWh delivered/gallon.

1 kW would be around 60% load, 650W would be around 35% load. Figure 4.5 kWh/gal @ 35%, 5.5 kWh/gal @ 60%.

Trikester sees around 70 Wh/mile on his trail rides. If he charged off of a EU2000i then he would see the equivalent of around 64 mpg. He's probably doing better than most small gas bikes in low speed trail rides.

I see around 120 Wh/mile at the wall in my mixed riding. If I charged off of an EU2000i then I would see the equivalent of around 46 mpg. I would expect to see 60-70 mpg in mixed riding on a 250cc gas bike.

Suppose a 2013 S could charge @ 1.3 kW (say 6.5 kWh/gal) from the Honda generator. On the highway, they see 140 Wh/mile @ the battery, or probably 165 Wh/mile at the wall. They're getting the equivalent of 40 mpg. A 500cc gas bike would probably see 50-60 mpg.

Using a generator to charge the Zero is something much like a true serial hybrid, like the Volt in one of its two modes of operation. This has some significant inefficiencies - converting kinetic energy to DC, charging the battery, discharging the battery, converting to AC, converting back to kinetic energy. So it's only more efficient when those inefficiencies are overcome by allowing the gas engine to operate in its most efficient regime of operation, or by introducing other system efficiencies (kinetic energy recovery via operating the motor as a generator, reducing aero drag, etc).

Trikester's trail riding is a great example. The gas equivalent would be operating at very low load most of the time, spending a great deal of time idling. A 250cc gas bike would probably not do terribly well here. If the gas generator was sized so that it was delivering 6.7 kWh/gal then he would be seeing nearly 96 mpg.

Highway riding is the flip side - it's relatively constant operation and the load is moderately high. Gas bikes are fairly efficient on the highway, relative to low speed operation.
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eyeinsky

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2013, 07:09:07 AM »

I wounder if the 6500w Generac would be more efficient for the dual Delta Q setup max rate charge drawing max load high RPM no idle load top charge completed by additional battery with lower watt inverter. This way maximizing the efficiency of the constant RPM AC genrator (non inverter type). Ultimately I have the equipment avalable. I should just do the test see what the actual fuel burned will be.   

Jerry 
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pinkyracer

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 12:16:24 PM »

this is so exciting!!! I have a dream... of riding e-bikes powered only renewably from Dakar to Cape Town, say about 2018 or so. It's so rad to see some people are actually thinking about this seriously, and making it happen. Sure, the setup you have requires a support vehicle but my friend who wants to do this with me is big on support vehicles. I LOVE the story about charging with a waterfall!!! Do you have video of that? Or even pix?
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trikester

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2013, 10:21:08 AM »

Quote
I LOVE the story about charging with a waterfall!!! Do you have video of that? Or even pix?

There was really nothing to photograph. The spring, 600 feet up on the mountainside is piped down to the place I was staying and the water comes out of a nozzle which directs it against a Pelton wheel. That spins what I think is just an automobile alternator. This then charges a 24 volt L A battery bank and powers a DC/AC inverter which supplies 120 VAC, 60 Hz to the whole facility. I charged off of one of those AC outlets in the cabin I was staying in, by running a cord out of the window to where I could park my bike.

As I mentioned, the water wheel / alternator generates a steady 750 W. However, the AC inverter is several kW powered by the batteries that are charged by the wheel. Therefore I didn't have any of the "start-up" surge problems we have discussed here, but my FX's steady state charging power of about 650 W was supplied by the wheel so I wasn't draining the batteries while charging. In effect the power was coming directly from the water.

Trikester
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NoiseBoy

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 11:04:26 PM »

Check this website out pinkyracer.

http://www.powerspout.com/
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eyeinsky

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Re: Zero FX Camp Based Solar Recharge Project
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2013, 08:33:34 AM »

this is so exciting!!! I have a dream... of riding e-bikes powered only renewably from Dakar to Cape Town, say about 2018 or so. It's so rad to see some people are actually thinking about this seriously, and making it happen. Sure, the setup you have requires a support vehicle but my friend who wants to do this with me is big on support vehicles. I LOVE the story about charging with a waterfall!!! Do you have video of that? Or even pix?

Hi Pinky

I'm actually building this wind turbine turbine for my place in St Johns, New Found Land, Canada. I will run most of the electric on the house plus hot water tank DC for a load dump.

http://s204.photobucket.com/user/eyeinsky/story/20093

It truly is the one of the windiest places on the on the planet. Last East Storm shot this in Pouch Cove.



« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 08:39:27 AM by eyeinsky »
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