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[WindRider]

So it is cold here in Idaho this week and I am thinking about next summer's camp outings and would like to take my Zero FX along and ride it from remote camping locations.   When I started thinking about this I wanted to engineer a solar powered recharge station to keep the FX juiced up so I can go on some longer loop rides from a base camp.

Goals:

-   As simple and reliable as possible
-   As low cost as possible
-   Support a 150 mile riding day  (assume 80 - 100 Watt/Hour/Mile for trail riding, not highway riding)
        NOTE:  This mileage requires looping back to camp and recharging or battery swapping
-   As light weight as possible
-   Make it re taskable to charge the FX at home if possible

I have engineered solar systems and used solar power for many years in remote telecom sites.   

Here is a pic of one of our Solar sites on a remote mountain top:



Another Solar Site:



I have also been a part of engineering and installing a 25 KW solar roof on an office building so I have some background and experience in solar.

I have a small foldout tent trailer that I pull with a Jeep Cherokee... it is not a huge camp trailer and everything is lightweight but I iike it for it's lightweight nature and it is easy to get into back country camping locations.   Most of the places that I like to camp at do not have power to the site and that is why I want a solar possibility.   Here are some pics of my camp setup both packed for transport and folded out at the the site so you can get an idea of how and where I like to camp.

This site actually has power:



No power here:



Jeep, trailer, mountain bikes:



Transport mode:



I want to use these solar panels for their compact and flexible nature.   These would pack super tight and they could easily be portable mounted as they have 4 grommets (in each corner) that can be strapped to anything handy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Semi-Flexible-120-Watt-Solar-Panel-High-Efficiency-Sunpower-Marine-Rated-/141123047913?pt=CPUs&hash=item20db96d1e9

Cost looks to be about $2/ Watt so I could setup a portable 300 - 500 watt system for around $600 - $1000 which is within reach.  I could also mount these on my shed when not in use camping and generate electricity to charge the FX at home.   Ride by sun power.  :  )

I already have a 1500W 12V - 120VAC inverter that could be used in this project to turn the solar into AC power and just plug the FX's onboard charger into it, or I could get another Charger from Zero and ride the FX on one battery while the other is charging at camp and then ride back and swap.

The solar systems that I have used and engineered are low power (15W to 50W of steady 24/7 load) where the solar power just recharges the battery bank (200 - 600AH of Deep Cycle batteries) so the battery and load is completely different in this scenario.   I am sure that Deep Cycle batteries are not ideal for this scenario, but would they still work OK?   I was thinking that I could buy 1 100 AH Deep Cycle and mate it with around 400W of solar power generation and this would work pretty well.   

A 100AH 12V battery would have enough stored power (about 1.2KWh) to about 1/2 charge one FX3 battery module.   That battery + about 500W of steady solar power should easily top up one battery and maybe both of them.   Adding another battery to my campsite setup would give about 2.4KW of stored energy.

I realize that there are losses in going from Solar 12V to battery storage and then through the inverter to AC power and through the FX's onboard charger to finally put the energy in the bike's batteries but it seems to the me the lowest cost and simplest approach, especially since I already own the inverter?   It would also be possible to inject the power directly into the FX battery as DC voltage with a 12V to 130V ?  (not sure what voltage to go to for direct DC charging?  with a DC/DC Power supply and this would be faster and more efficient.   Does anyone have any ideas what DC/DC converter to use and how to connect it to the bike in this scenario?   Faster charging would be better.

I would like to buy another ZF3 battery module but they are really spendy.   It seems to me that I would get more bang for the buck with investments in cheaper battery storage at the campsite and maybe another charger or a quick charge direct to bike solution?

Any input would be appreciated.   I will putting together this system in the spring/summer of 2014 and will post up the results.   I know that Trikester also needs a system like this.   I don't want to spoil the beauty and peace of a remote campsite with a gas generator so that will not be considered.

Looking forward to hearing what the people on this forum think would be the best solution.

[protomech]

Wow! $2/watt is super-inexpensive for thin film solar. Net Weight 2.45 kg too .. 500W of PV for < 10 kg and < $1000.

Take a look at some previous threads regarding solar power. Especially of note: you can power the charger with DC instead of AC (Biff says > 127 V DC).
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14290#msg14290
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3188.msg16340#msg16340

150 miles is a lot. At 90 Wh/mile, you'd need 13.5 kWh energy into the batteries. At 90% charge efficiency (DC-DC) you'd need 15 kWh out of the panels. If the panels produce 80% of their nameplate power for 5 hours a day, then you'd need 3.75 kW of photovoltaics.

32 of those panels would do. Probably a 8s4p configuration for 176V DC. Ground coverage would be approximately 17' x 14'.
32 x $239 = $7648

You'd need to charge at 3 kW. 3 of the accessory 1 kW Delta-Q chargers might work. I wonder if the chargers reset if the solar panels are partly shaded and reduce their power?
3 x $599 + 2 x $249 (Y cables) = $2295

Alternatively, maybe you could build / source a custom MPPT charger. The Delta-Q are PFC auto-ranging chargers, so I think they will take whatever voltage the solar panels put out as long as it's above their minimum .. so probably not needed.

You would probably want at least two spare battery modules to be on charge while you ride.
2 x $2495 = $4990

That's a very sizable investment .. but really only about half of it is the actual solar panels.

[WindRider]

Thanks ProtoMech,

The assumption for the 150 mile day would be that at the start of the day the bike was charged so I would only need to replace that energy once throughout a 15 hour sunny day.   

I was thinking that it would make sense to store some energy in a lower cost Deep Cycle battery and then it could be harvesting energy all day and all I need do is transfer it to the bike.   

Thinking it through more it makes more sense to me now to get another Zero battery pack and Zero charger.  That way I could put the sun harvested energy directly into a Zero pack and then just swap packs.  This way I could also quick charge if AC power was available. 

Thanks for the tip about direct DC input into the charger...  That really makes it easier. 

[trikester]

I'm glad you are working on this. I've wanted to but have been too busy with other things.

As I've mentionerd before the Delta Q needs something extra to get it started since both of my sine inverter generators has had to be capable of a higher load to start than needed to continue charging. We need to find out why that is.

A better charger would be one that could sense the voltage of the LA battery and reduce its charging current as the battery voltage dropped (I don't know of one) . This would prevent it shutting down when the solar input was lower and axillary battery was becoming depleted. The nature of switchmode power conversion is constant power which makes just the opposite happen (input current goes up as input voltage drops).

Another way to charge would be to series enough solar panels to get a DC output voltage above the battery full charge voltage, in lets say, 1/2 of max sun light. Then feed this panel DC voltage directly to the bike battery with a series switch which would monitor the voltage and shut off the panel output when full charge was reached. Since any reasonable sized solar panel could not put out more current than the battery could stand (100's of amps) a current limiter would not be needed to protect the battery (solar panel array would self limit) but it might be needed to prevent the panels from overheating. You would know about that possible limitation, I don't know what happens to panels if a load takes as much current as a panel can produce.

So, assuming that current limiting is not needed then one needs to design a charge controller that would: 1) Tell the bike's battery switch to connect (satisfy the signal requirements of the bike's battery control board). 2) Monitor battery voltage to shut down the panel array's series switch when full charge is reached. That signal might already be available from the bike's battery control board. The Doc would know more about this.

You probably already know that the bike's battery control boards are built into the battery cases. So it is present whether the battery is mounted in the bike or sitting on the bench. This is a good thing.

This simplifies the electronic hardware in that the solar panels themselves become the charger plus some additional control circuitry. However, if you also want some LA batteries to store charge during sunlight hours when no bike batteries are connected then that does complicate things more. If you had enough LA batteries in series to store the high voltage out of the solar panel array their charge would need to also be controlled so they didn't overcharge. Also a current limiter would now be needed because they would dump huge amounts of current into the bike's battery if directly connected. I think it would be better if you had enough of the Zero batteries in camp to utilize the daylight while the bike is being used.

That's some food for thought to chew on.

Trikester

BTW - Did you read my posting about riding all week in the Klamath Forest entirely on power produced by a little spring that had a 600 foot fall to the impeller driving an alternator and LA batteries. It was neat thinking, as I climbed thousands of feet up the steep fire-roads, that I was being pushed way up there by that little spring of water. The spring produces a constant 750 watts and looks like less water than my kitchen faucet puts out. Of course it wasn't portable.

[trikester]

I just had a thought. Read my previous post and then consider this.

One could cannibalize a Delta Q charger to get the necessary control circuits to attach to a direct charging high voltage solar array. The object would be to completely bypass the converter circuits and feed the solar output directly into the output control circuit. This circuit would already contain the series switch and the logic circuits to communicate with the battery control board in the Zero battery. It's wasteful of money but would make it unnecessary to design and build the control circuits. One would need to look at the unloaded voltage the circuits can stand if the solar array (in bright sun) was not connected to the battery load.

The purpose in not using the charger's converter circuits would be to allow the system to use what ever power was available from the HVDC solar array right up until the array output voltage fell below the Li battery voltage. As long as the array could produce a voltage at or above the full charge voltage then the Li battery would take whatever current the array could produce even if it was only a trickle.

To get even more sophisticated, If the HVDC solar array was a series /parallel stack then it could be switched to a double series stack to boost the voltage, above battery voltage, in low light conditions to continue to trickle charge in early morning and late evening hours, or heavy cloud cover.

Trikester

[BSDThw]

You can feed the Delta-Q with DC!

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14290#msg14290

...but it might be needed to prevent the panels from overheating.

not really necessary you can short cut a module it is done by a lot of solar-charger when reducing(PWM) the load current. (you will have a more constant current while regulating => less EMC and is more effective; You can use one MosFet in the load line and one in the short cut line a series charger needs two Fets in series (revers current Night))

[eyeinsky]

I just had a thought. Read my previous post and then consider this.

One could cannibalize a Delta Q charger to get the necessary control circuits to attach to a direct charging high voltage solar array. The object would be to completely bypass the converter circuits and feed the solar output directly into the output control circuit. This circuit would already contain the series switch and the logic circuits to communicate with the battery control board in the Zero battery. It's wasteful of money but would make it unnecessary to design and build the control circuits. One would need to look at the unloaded voltage the circuits can stand if the solar array (in bright sun) was not connected to the battery load.

The purpose in not using the charger's converter circuits would be to allow the system to use what ever power was available from the HVDC solar array right up until the array output voltage fell below the Li battery voltage. As long as the array could produce a voltage at or above the full charge voltage then the Li battery would take whatever current the array could produce even if it was only a trickle.

To get even more sophisticated, If the HVDC solar array was a series /parallel stack then it could be switched to a double series stack to boost the voltage, above battery voltage, in low light conditions to continue to trickle charge in early morning and late evening hours, or heavy cloud cover.

Trikester

Or use DC to DC step up converter 0 to 60V input to 0 to 80V output 600w Now for the 2013 fx you will need 117V unit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251340428395?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261293791102?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Feature:
Input voltage: DC 10V-60V
Input Current: 15A (Max)
Output voltage: DC 12V-80V continuously adjustable
Output current: 10A (Max) adjustable
Output power: effective power P = input voltage V * 10A
Conversion efficiency: up to 95% ( Input voltage and current; Output voltage and current will Affect the conversion efficiency)
Short-circuit protection: fuse
Dimension: 85x63x60mm
 
Note:
600W Refers to the maximum power of the module under specific conditions, In the case of different input voltage, The maximum output power declined by the maximum input current limit. For example
Input Voltage 12V:Max Output Power P=12V*10A=120W
Input Voltage 24V:Max Output Power P=24V*10A=240W
Input Voltage 60V:Max Output Power P=60V*10A=600W
 
Some Applications:
DIY a output adjustable car power supply. input Car DC 12V, output can be DC 14-80V continuously adjustable. but the output voltage can not less than input voltage.
Car Laptop Power Supply. input 12V, adjust the output voltage for the laptop/notebook.
Booster charger. use 12V power for charging 24V battery. and the charging current could be adjusted.
Powered for electronic devices.
 
Application Example:
Input 12V, 8.73A, output 20V, 5.0A, Efficiency about 86%
Input 54V 13.5A, Output 58V 12A, Use 5Ω1Kw resistance as the load test, Efficiency 95%

[eyeinsky]

Here another option! Fisher Paykel Smart Drive PM motor Obviously this guy has not wire the stators  assembly to output a usable voltage Search Fisher Paykel Smart Drive generator wiring diagram. They can be wired for 12, 24, 48, 72, 117v  if it was driven by small gas engine it could provide at least 600w HVDC power to charge a FX battery.

   

[WindRider]

You can feed the Delta-Q with DC!

Does anyone know the minimum DC Voltage and Current that it takes to get the DeltaQ
to start charging?    As Trikester mentions there is probably an initial current surge that has to happen.   

I am thinking that DC into the DeltaQ is the safest and most versatile way to go.    By using the DeltaQ and
having the BMS integrated into the battery pack all of the protections and battery charge
logic are in place.  It also gives me another batt pack and quick charge capability on AC power. 

I still think that it would be best to have a 100 AH (1.2KW) deep cycle battery on the solar array to provide current surge and protection from clouds rolling by, etc.   

So it looks like this now in my mind:

500 W of solar array, parallel connected, output 17V, daily capacity = 500W/hrX12hr=6KW/day
1 deepCycle 12V Battery to provide current surge and some storage
1 solar charge controller to protect battery if not charging
1 DC/DC converter 12V to ? 117V ? For input to DeltaQ charger
1 Zero configured Delta Q charger and adapter cable
1 ZF3 Batt Pack

I can start in the morning with the bike fully charged and go on a big loop ride then come back to camp and head out again with one batt pack for a smaller loop and put one batt on charge for one more evening loop ride.   I should be able to get 30 miles from one batt pack so this could provide a total of 120 to 160 total miles of riding with 2 loops back to camp for batt swaps.   The last charge of the day might be dodgey as the holding battery might be taking most of the charge for a while after lunch. 

This is not inexpensive.   I might need to get some overtime this winter.   

Easier for Trikester to do since he already has some batt packs to take along from the Trike. 

This setup should allow one day of riding and one day of charging...   Approximately.   More solar would probably be better.   The downer is no overnight charging.   

[trikester]

You can feed the Delta-Q with DC!

I know that!

You missed my explanation on why the Delta Q converter should be bypassed. Of course you can feed DC into the Delta Q and it will cut you off if the solar panel can't supply the power level it is set for. In other words, if the Delta Q is a 1 kW charger it won't operate if you can't supply the 1 kW. However, if you don't use the power converter in the Delta Q and feed the high voltage solar array's DC directly to the bike battery, through the control circuits of the Delta Q, or a homemade control circuit, it will pass any level of power available from the panel as long as the panel output voltage is higher than the battery voltage. Therefore, if your panel output drops to lets say 200 watts it can still be adding some charge to the battery. If you were feeding that DC into the input of the Delta Q it would have shut down when the panel power dropped below 1 kW and those additional hours of lower charge input would have been lost.

Yes, a DC/DC converter that runs no matter what the input power level the source is producing could be used to boost the solar panel DC supply voltage and then it should be used as stated above. The advantage of using this free-running DC/DC converter would be the voltage regulation it could do and it could protect the control circuits from over voltage damage. It could also keep the solar output above the battery voltage even as the panel's output dropped. In that case the solar panel would feed the DC/DC step-up converter which would then bypass the power converter in the Delta Q and feed directly into the bike battery through the charge control circuits. The DC/DC could be a very simple design with no current limiting but designed to handle the max output current of the array.

My whole idea here is to be able to utilize the solar panel's output to add some charge to the battery at any power level as illumination is lowered, not just when the panel is producing over 1kW. This extends the time period of the day when the battery is charging. You can't do that by feeding the HVDC into the Delta Q's normal input.

Hope that clears up any confusion about what I was proposing.

Trikester

[mr1396]

I don't know if the specs are right but GOAL ZERO YETI 1250 solar kit or Yeti 400 solar kit might be right there a little expensive, on another thread someone said a yeti 1250 could charge fx 5.7 25% before being recharged itself. the yeti 1250 can use wind power too I think

[eyeinsky]

I don't know if the specs are right but GOAL ZERO YETI 1250 solar kit or Yeti 400 solar kit might be right there a little expensive, on another thread someone said a yeti 1250 could charge fx 5.7 25% before being recharged itself. the yeti 1250 can use wind power too I think

I think the need for the Delta Q is not required. A DC to DC stepup regulator should be fine to dump power directly in to the battery through a electric switch controlled by the BMS. I believe Doc posted a circuit that he uses to control the power out of his high rate charger power supply.

Jerry


   

[BSDThw]

Trikester:

You missed my explanation on why the Delta Q converter should be bypassed.

You are definitely right- sorry - it is not always possible to get 100% in a foreign language.

What you really need is a MPP-Tracker like the attached pdf. The problem I don't know one for the 116Vdc output voltage.

This one is for max 48V Lead-Batteries - but I know it would be possible to boost to 75V. So it would work perfect for the 2012.
Unfortunately my bike is not at home when the sunlight is good - therefore I never started to modify the SW to 75V.

[eyeinsky]

Trikester:

You missed my explanation on why the Delta Q converter should be bypassed.

You are definitely right- sorry - it is not always possible to get 100% in a foreign language.

What you really need is a MPP-Tracker like the attached pdf. The problem I don't know one for the 116Vdc output voltage.

This one is for max 48V Lead-Batteries - but I know it would be possible to boost to 75V. So it would work perfect for the 2012.
Unfortunately my bike is not at home when the sunlight is good - therefore I never started to modify the SW to 75V.

found this one:

DC9-24V to DC 450V converter 20W boost step up switching power supply regulator

[Doctorbass]

You can feed the Delta-Q with DC!

Does anyone know the minimum DC Voltage and Current that it takes to get the DeltaQ
to start charging?    As Trikester mentions there is probably an initial current surge that has to happen.   

Here is your answer,,, I did the test few month ago    

Doc