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Author Topic: Question about range  (Read 1903 times)

flar

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Question about range
« on: July 27, 2013, 04:28:02 PM »

The web site has the following description of the range of the Mission R:

Quote
With power densities previously unheard of for electric motorcycles, and over 17 kWh of stored power, the UltraPack™ not only allows for the world's best superbike performance, but also a real-world range of over 140 miles as measured using the Motorcycle Industry Council’s (MIC) SAE combined cycle standard, at 70 mph highway steady-state speed.

The various battery sizes list the following ranges:

12kWh, 170 mile city, 105 mile "real world"
15kWh, 200 mile city, 120 mile "real world"
17kWh, 230 mile city, 140 mile "real world"

The description includes text that describes two separate and conflicting standard range measurements.  They clearly say "70mph steady-state" which would imply they are quoting the pure highway range, but they also clearly state "SAE combined cycle standard" which mixes the 70mph range with the city range.

The "real world" ranges they list are about 60% of the advertised city ranges - which is about the same as the ratio of the Zero S hwy/city, and about the same as the Empulse combined/city ratio.

The Mission R has a fairing to help with highway range, but it is probably heavier than the Zero (and probably the Empulse too) which would have an impact as well.  It's also a sportier bike than either which would tend to suggest that a "real world range" for it would be geared more towards highway speeds, no?

I'd love to think that the "real world" range is a pure highway range, but have no idea how to compare all of these data points with the confusing language.
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Currently riding: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Used to ride: '88 Hawk GT, '97 BMW F650 Funduro
Other electric motorcycles test ridden: 2012 Zero S/DS, Brammo Empulse R, 2013 Zero S, Energica Ego/Eva
Other EV own: Tesla Model X
Other EV test drives: Tesla Roadster/S

protomech

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2013, 08:37:13 PM »

I compare the city, combined, and pure highway ranges of the Empulse, Zero S, and Mission bikes here:
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/mission-rs-mission-wants-to-sell-you-a-two-wheeled-tesla/

Mission's "real world" range is the combined cycle (50% city miles, 50% highway miles).

The Mission bike is about as efficient as the Brammo on the highway, and slightly less efficient than the Zero (per claimed specs).
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lolachampcar

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 02:38:51 AM »

If Mission can get the R anywhere remotely in the same neighborhood as my P85+ they will have a home run.
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flar

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 02:57:21 PM »

Thanks for the write-up Proto.  Just out of curiosity, did you find those numbers published anywhere, or did you reverse engineer them from the numbers currently on their web site.

Their wording is a little awkward, the MIC SAE has recommendations for how to publish the numbers and they blend the wording suggested for both the constant speed range and also for the "Highway Commuting Range", but their wording is closer to the constant speed suggestion.  On the other hand, the reporting rules clearly state that they "shall report" both the city and combined (Highway Commuting Range) numbers and that the stead state number is optional.  I guess that rule wins out here since they only list 2 numbers.

I was hoping for a bit more highway range advantage to a faired bike than what they got...  :(

(Not that I would be in the market for a 40k-ish motorcycle in the first place...)
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Currently riding: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Used to ride: '88 Hawk GT, '97 BMW F650 Funduro
Other electric motorcycles test ridden: 2012 Zero S/DS, Brammo Empulse R, 2013 Zero S, Energica Ego/Eva
Other EV own: Tesla Model X
Other EV test drives: Tesla Roadster/S

protomech

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 07:43:28 PM »

I backed the highway range figures out from their combined range and city range numbers.

Keep in mind the Mission bike is a big ol' bike. Aero drag is proportional to drag coefficient * cross-sectional area.. I suspect that there's some tradeoff between those two factors if you compare a Brammo or Zero to the Mission bike.

Quote
With power densities previously unheard of for electric motorcycles, and over 17 kWh of stored power, the UltraPack™ not only allows for the world's best superbike performance, but also a real-world range of over 140 miles as measured using the Motorcycle Industry Council’s (MIC) SAE combined cycle standard, at 70 mph highway steady-state speed. Lower capacity battery options are also available.
Odd wording to be sure. However, the combined cycle standard can be applied by blending city and either 55 mph steady state or 70 mph steady state. I believe that's what Mission is trying to say there.

RideApart posted a technical specs sheet here:
http://rideapart.com/2013/06/mission-r-a-real-electric-superbike/

It directly states the "real world" range as a combined cycle range, 50% city miles 50% steady state miles.

I think Mission should not have used "real world" to describe their bike's range. One person's real world usage will be very different from another's.
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protomech

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 07:55:39 PM »

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Mission announced something.. really soon.. about DC charging.

I suspect the Mission bike's 17 kWh pack is high voltage, perhaps around 350V 50Ah. It could get an 80% charge in 20-25 minutes at a CHAdeMO station, for example..
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flar

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 04:09:00 PM »

Another data point.  From the interview article that Richard posted:

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140 miles of real world range on the highway translates to 230 miles in city riding. That gives you the kind of range you’re used to. 140 miles is actually better than most performance bikes.

"real world range on the highway"?
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Currently riding: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Used to ride: '88 Hawk GT, '97 BMW F650 Funduro
Other electric motorcycles test ridden: 2012 Zero S/DS, Brammo Empulse R, 2013 Zero S, Energica Ego/Eva
Other EV own: Tesla Model X
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Richard230

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 08:38:22 PM »

I think you could get that 140 miles with the $$$ optional (and not yet available) 17 kWh battery pack if you stuck to 55-65 mph, which is the speed limit on most freeways in the U.S.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

flar

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 06:16:34 AM »

I think you could get that 140 miles with the $$$ optional (and not yet available) 17 kWh battery pack if you stuck to 55-65 mph, which is the speed limit on most freeways in the U.S.

The reference to 230 city miles in the same sentence refers to the entry level 12kWh battery pack...
(Read that completely wrong - not sure what I was thinking)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 04:40:50 PM by flar »
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Currently riding: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Used to ride: '88 Hawk GT, '97 BMW F650 Funduro
Other electric motorcycles test ridden: 2012 Zero S/DS, Brammo Empulse R, 2013 Zero S, Energica Ego/Eva
Other EV own: Tesla Model X
Other EV test drives: Tesla Roadster/S

Richard230

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 06:33:21 AM »

I think you could get that 140 miles with the $$$ optional (and not yet available) 17 kWh battery pack if you stuck to 55-65 mph, which is the speed limit on most freeways in the U.S.

The reference to 230 city miles in the same sentence refers to the entry level 12kWh battery pack...

Well, they must be planning to get more kWhs into their 12 kWh battery pack than Zero does with their 11.4 kWh battery pack if they plan on a 230 mile range at "city" speeds.   ???
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

protomech

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 08:39:42 PM »

230 miles range is city riding with the 17 kWh pack. This is directly stated on Mission Motorcycle's site.

140 miles range is 50% city / 50% highway miles with the 17 kWh pack (confirmation).

I would bet on having to drop down to 50-55 mph to get 140 miles from the 17 kWh pack.

The Mission RS will ship first, and it is only available with the 17 kWh pack.

I assume Mission is talking about nominal capacity when they talk about their pack capacity.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 08:41:30 PM by protomech »
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flar

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Re: Question about range
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 04:42:27 PM »

Apologies for the misquote.  I think I assumed that the battery packs would be listed top-down in smallest-largest size or something and didn't even look at the sizes...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 09:27:01 AM by flar »
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Currently riding: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Used to ride: '88 Hawk GT, '97 BMW F650 Funduro
Other electric motorcycles test ridden: 2012 Zero S/DS, Brammo Empulse R, 2013 Zero S, Energica Ego/Eva
Other EV own: Tesla Model X
Other EV test drives: Tesla Roadster/S
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