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[WiscoZeroPilot]

I have a new to me '09 Zero X in overall very good condition.  Aftermarket light & signal kit, White Bros fork, two batteries, and two chargers.  Unfortunately both of the batteries are 'dead', as they sat idle for quite long time.

I was pretty disappointed after talking with Zero today.  I didn't expect them to warranty my batteries, but I definitely expected them to offer (or refer me to someone) some solution.  What was nearly a $9k bike is less than four years ago is considered 'outdated' in their eyes.  Any battery they now have are a different size, different voltage, different plug, etc.

They guy I talked to said that even if my batteries had been well maintained, he said it's very rare to find batteries that still work from 2009.

I totally understand that my bike is a early effort, and I agree that products need to develop.  It sure seems sort sighted for an expensive bike to rely on a key (and expensive) component with a relatively short life span...and offer ZERO solutions!  If they opt to not support it, it sure makes sense to at least be able to refer their customers to someone that does. 

To basically shrug his shoulder and give me a 'sorry...' really has me totally turned off on this whole thing.  Definitely thinking about cutting my losses and selling this to someone willing to deal with this categories growing pains.   Hell, I can easily find a IC bike 10 years older, significantly cheaper, that will run for another 10 years with very little cost or effort.

That said, I still want this to work.  I need forum members help.  I can't be the only one in this situation.  While I have a budget, it's pretty limited.  I'm not exactly Jay Leno, and simply call my buddies at GM to help 'figure it out'

What do you suggest??? 

[Richard230]

You may need to build your own battery pack to get your bike back on the road.  This forum might be your best bet for help and suggestions.  They are very knowledgeable about DIY EV projects:  http://www.elmoto.net/forum.php

[firepower]

Have you tried trickle charging them with a powersupply of higher voltage than battery pack at less than an 1A?

The smart charger supplied will see faulty battery and not charge. it worth trying.

I surprised zero dont have spart parts stock, Battery is main part of the bike.
Would not be too hard to replace batteries in your pack with similar.

contact the Doctorbass he have good advice

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2705.0

[pennjon]

  My Story.........................................I had a 2009 Zero X like yours  that I rode for a year before I sold it.   I had to replace the original battery with a newer one after it failed to recharge.
 This Bike was purchased from an auction  and Zero would only offer me a new battery for a cost of $1500.00.    The new battery worked well for about a year and then began to give me issues.   Note: I had always kept the battery on the charger when not in use and  plugged back in  after each ride.
Zero did cover the repairs (Under Warranty) to my new battery after it would only charge to 90%.  Tech support figured a dead or weak cell was causing  the charger not to reach 100% and could repair it.   Shortly after that I ended up selling the bike on Ebay.   
I did enjoy riding the bike on tight single track here in Pennsylvania.    Before buying a replacement pack for 1/2 price  from Zero I though about rebuilding the old one.   My problem was finding  a resource to provide me with loose cells.   

[Doctorbass]

Hi, I know it is not easy when you are having problem with these battery.

I have two zero 2010 battery and one 2011 here and i can say i know them perfectly and understand the desing. the 2009 are similar.

I play with lithium battery since 6 years now and i have my own advanced lab for testing any kind of lithium battery.

I succeded to recharge a part of the cell bank in one of the 2010 battery that was down to 9 volt out of 58 but some bank are dead.

This might also be the situations so even if you succed to recharge some bank at very low current ( let say 5A during a day) ( until they reach 8.4V each) You will stll have some dead cells bank and this is the problem.

These cells are well documented on teh forum if you search a bit. I made few threads about them and also on the endless-sphere forum.

Now it depend on 3 things.. well i shold say you have 3 options

1: you have money and buy a plug and play battery that match the controlelr voltage of max 60V and that can deliver up to 400A..
2: you have ALOT OF TIME and a good electronic skill and can find some replacement LiMn cells that will match the same Ah and internal resistance of the rest of the "still good bank"

3: you find some replacement cell bank from other zeromembers that have these cells bank.
In my case i have some but i'm living in Canada adn it might be $$$ to send cells to your location due to the weight and safety shipping regulations because it'S not a finished product.

Good luck!

Btw dont forget, all info you need are on these great forums: endless-sphere.com, electricmotorcycleforum, elmoto.net, diyelectriccar.com

Doc

[nicktulloh]

I'm not savvy enough to offer any technical help but if there's any way I can help otherwise, just ask. If you track down a solution in the New England area and need it picked up and shipped, or just looked at, or trees shook or cages rattled, I'll be happy to help.

Hang in there.

[protomech]

Problems with the pre-2012 bikes:

1. Zero has tweaked the powertrains for the bikes each year with limited regard for compatibility. There's no easy way to drop a 2012 or 2013 battery into an older bike, though you may be able to shoehorn a 2011 X / MX / XU battery in.
2. Though Zero's sales continue to increase, they are still small in absolute terms and the early bikes in particular represent a very small market for a commercial OEM-quality battery replacement.
3. The Molicel cells used in the pre-2012 batteries are manufacturer-rated for a few hundred cycles; a well-maintained and gently exercised battery will have significant capacity loss through cycling, and a badly neglected battery will most certainly be dead.

I think and hope these problems will be lessened going forward; Zero again did not preserve compatibility between 2012 and 2013, but I hope they will begin to stabilize going forward, where it makes sense to do so. Zero's sales are still small, but they claimed 1000+ units sold in 2012 and hopefully will see sales grow further in 2013 and beyond. Finally, Zero put special marketing emphasis on the 2012 and 2013 battery lifetimes, advertising hundreds of thousands of miles (2000-3000 cycles) to 80% capacity. We'll see how that works out in the real world.

The earlier bikes still have significant hobbyist value if they align with your interests, but a replacement battery will involve some level of tinkering with cells that can be dangerous if abused. It's certainly possible to repair a battery with a small number of failing cells or replace with a battery of your own design; DoctorBass is the expert in doing so : )

2009 Zero X battery disassembled:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=467.0

Here's what I know, guess, or can find:
* The 2008 - 2011 batteries are all 14 series LiMn Molicel cylindrical cells, 52 volts nominal 58.8 volts maximum.
* 2008 - 2011 battery is 14s 12p 35 Ah. 2009 cells are Molicel IMR-26700, possibly the same used for all model years.
* 2008 - 2009 battery packs are 14 1/4" long and referred to by length or by the Zenergy brand.
* 2010 - 2011 battery packs are 14 3/4" long and referred to by length or by the Z-Force brand.
* Zero sold an adapter to use a 2011 battery pack in a 2010 bike.
* Zero sold the 2010 battery pack alongside the 2009 battery pack. Beyond the differing lengths, this makes me suspect that the 2010 / 2011 battery packs may contain some logic that makes them fundamentally incompatible with the 2009 bikes; perhaps a BMS.

[WiscoZeroPilot]

All this is super helpful, I definitely appreciate it.

Both of my batteries currently read about 9v.  I'm a r/c enthusiast, and have had lots of hands on experience with Lipos.  Building packs, 'waking' up low voltage packs, etc.  I was pretty certain I would simply rebuild (or wake up) one of these packs until I actually opened one.  I've only removed the battery ends, and it sure seems like a challenge to get much further into the pack.

I'll need to do some additional reading on the links above on this (THANK YOU!), but between the way they're glued in and the seemly poor quality of the Molicel, this sort of seems like an expensive and challening short term fix. 

At least now I have some direction to consider.  I at least feel a bit better than I did after my call with Zero.

[trikester]

The buyer for my 2010 DS backed out because he didn't like riding a quiet bike in traffic, to commute to work. I offered the bike at $2K since that is what Hollywood Electrics sold one for. Since it only has a few hundred miles on it (I'd have to look at the exact mileage) it could be worth it for someone to cannibalize the battery from it. Of course, if the buyer isn't located in Southern California then shipping would increase the cost.

I've also thought about just selling the battery for $2K and scrapping the rest or fitting a later battery into the frame.

Just thinking here,
Trikester

[Doctorbass]

The 2010 battery include the MBB while the 2011 have external MBB. But both have the BMs inside ( i opened both

The LiMn Molicel have the same voltage range as LiPo cells. If you are loving RC stuff and feel very familiar with lihium battery assembly, it could be interesting to fit some HK lipo inside, but yoyou might have to  keep your pack outside the house then

I measured that you could fit twice more energy by using lipo in a regular ( 3.9kWh pack). if folded correctly.

Contact Electric cowboy he might have some DigiNow stuff to help you to communicate with the BMM with serial port and play with the BMS parameters.

Doc

[WiscoZeroPilot]

The 2010 battery include the MBB while the 2011 have external MBB. But both have the BMs inside ( i opened both

The LiMn Molicel have the same voltage range as LiPo cells. If you are loving RC stuff and feel very familiar with lihium battery assembly, it could be interesting to fit some HK lipo inside, but yoyou might have to  keep your pack outside the house then

I measured that you could fit twice more energy by using lipo in a regular ( 3.9kWh pack). if folded correctly.

Contact Electric cowboy he might have some DigiNow stuff to help you to communicate with the BMM with serial port and play with the BMS parameters.

Doc

Honestly, r/c stuff is extremely simple compared to this application.  While I feel comfortable and willing to 'do the work', I am not comfortable nor interested in enginnering a different solution.  Please don't read this as being stubborn, I simply know where my experience and skill level is...and where it isn't

[ColoPaul]

3. The Molicel cells used in the pre-2012 batteries are manufacturer-rated for a few hundred cycles; a well-maintained and gently exercised battery will have significant capacity loss through cycling, and a badly neglected battery will most certainly be dead.

2009 Zero X battery disassembled:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=467.0

Very interesting, thanks protomech, you are a wealth of info!
Incredible.   I find it amazing that anyone would have bought a pre-2012 bike based on that.   A few hundred charges? Really? 10,000 miles maybe?

I can attest that I have charged my 2012 >100 times (6000 mi/40 mi per charge = 150 charges) and have experienced zero capacity loss so far. 

[WiscoZeroPilot]

I was very pleased to find this place nearby. http://www.sbsbattery.com/

I went by there with one of my Zero batteries, and was greeted by the company president.  He was a motorcycle enthusiast, and was pretty familiar with my bike.  Their site really made me feel like they will be able to dial me in, but I expected some sticker shock.

I was blown away when he told me they had no solution.  While their site talks about lipo options, they really focus on lead acid.  This took a lot of wind out of my sails...

Oh yea, I forgot to mention that I also have a nearby Zero dealer.  They're a newer dealer, so I really didn't expect them to be able to help any more than talking direct with Zero, but i gave it a shot.  As appropriately expected, they were not able to help either.

I might reach out direct to DrBass to discuss options, but this is really feeling like an uphill battle I'm not likely willing to fight much longer... 

[protomech]

Really have 3 options:

1. DIY
Check out elmoto.net, visforvoltage.com, and endless-sphere.com for user forums. Many people there will have experience building custom packs for their bikes.

2. Contract
Quick Google search shows houseofbatteries.com, swe.com, cell-con.com . A contract company may be $$$, if they handle one-off packs .. otherwise a group buy may be necessary. They should be able to build a production quality pack. If you go to another chemistry you may have to tweak or replace the charger and/or BMS.

Hollywood Electrics may also be able to help, either directly or point you to someone that can help.

Finally, you may be able to find a user on one of the afore-mentioned sites that would build a pack for a fee. Likely much cheaper than a professional build, but may be of lesser quality (and may not be.. many users there are very skilled).

3. Triage
Cut losses, sell the bike here or on one of the diy forums.

[protomech]

Wisco,

Another option you might look into for DIY is starting with an existing battery module.

There's some discussion now on elmoto about battery modules sold by evolveelectric and elithion using Enerdel cells. The Enerdel cells are large-format pouch NMC, like the 2012 Zeros (using EIG).
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2448-RC-li-po-what-s-the-verdict&p=37865&viewfull=1#post37865

You would definitely want to use the power modules, since the Zero X has a relatively small battery for the level of power it requires.

Elithion says they can configure the modules up to 16S2P. Unfortunately Elithion (per posters in elmoto) is not interested in selling modules in sub-10 kWh quantities.
http://elithion.com/battery_blocks.php

Elithion's 32 cell (16S2P) module has the following dimensions:
220x198x268 mm and 19 kg

A 32 cell module configured as 14S2P would be ideal as a drop-in replacement, as it should have the same voltage as the stock battery. Probably could re-use the stock dash, charger, and controller without modification.

A 14S2P module would weigh around 18 kg (21 kg stock), 1.63 kWh nominal (vs 1.7 kWh stock), capable of 24 kW power output for 10s and 8 kW continuous power output.

Evolveelectrics lists prices for individual modules AND individual cells. Very nice to see components available to DIY. They only list the 12S modules.
Evolve has very good pricing for lower capacity cells - their "on-sale" 12S2P power module is $779 for a single unit (1.4 kWh, $556/kWh).
http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_MP310-049_Moxie.html

I don't know how well the battery modules would fit the existing Zero frame, which might involve some extensive modifications.