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Author Topic: Regenerative Braking  (Read 8332 times)

lolachampcar

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Regenerative Braking
« on: February 26, 2013, 08:46:26 PM »
I have had my Tesla Model S for three weeks now and I am constantly amazed by their implementation of regenerative braking.  In short, the throttle is a linear torque demand device that goes from max power to max regen.  If you are using 20 KW-Hr to drive down the road at 65 mph and slowly lift your foot you will get to zero energy usage.  This is the coast point.  If you continue to lift, you will slowly engage more regenerative braking until you are fully off the throttle.  There is sufficient RB to drive the car literally with one pedal up until you need to come to a complete stop (from about a three mile an hour crawl).

I bring this up because it would be an awesome addition to the Zero line up.  If the guys at Zero are reading this,  please go drive a Model S.  If you are in West Palm Beach, come drive mine.  If Sevcon made a controller that had progressive regenerative braking, I would buy it in a heartbeat.  Do they Harlan?
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Richard230

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 09:17:34 PM »
I always thought that the system used by the Vectrix scooter was the best for an electric motorcycle.  When the throttle was closed, the power was off and you coasted.  But when you rotated the throttle forward, past the "closed" position, the regen was activated and you slowed down.  I think a lot of EV manufacturers would use that system if they could, but I understand that Vectrix has patented that idea.  Personally, I would pay a little extra to have that feature on my motorcycle, even if Vectrix got the money.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

benswing

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 10:06:51 PM »
Same experience as Richard230 with my Vectrix.  I really liked having the ability to easily come to a full stop only using the regen.
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trikester

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 10:46:26 PM »
Quote
I really liked having the ability to easily come to a full stop only using the regen.

I some ways I have created that effect with my handlebar switch on my 2012 DS. By riding in SPORT mode I can coast (as much as that lets me, with its unprogrammable built in regen). Then by pushing the switch lever forward with my left index finger I go into ECO with 15% regen or by pulling the lever back with my finger I get ECO mode with 25% regen (brake light on). I have used this to ride around town and longer runs, with stop lights, without touching my brakes. It's not the Vectrix but it's as close as I could come.

I've posted the info on my thread: "Handle bar switch works great".

Trikester
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:49:14 PM by trikester »
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amahoser

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 11:27:58 PM »
In the same thread that Trikester mentioned, I also pointed out that Variable Regen on a clutch lever would also be a good solution. I'm pointing it out again because I would love to see that idea implemented. In the interim, I will probably copy Trikester's idea. I really wish I had more control of regen like the Vectrix scooters.

Jose Soriano
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BSDThw

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 01:18:32 AM »
Quote
I also pointed out that Variable Regen on a clutch lever would also be a good solution.

Exactly what I do at the moment!

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lolachampcar

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 01:46:40 AM »
Having better access to the Zero's (Sevcon's) current regen options would be nice.

What I was angling for was a linear continously variable regen like the Tesla.  I can move the throttle pedal to any point off of the then current "power on" point for the car and get regen.  The more I lift, the more regen I get.  I am learning to manage the regen to get perfect stops at lights and such without touching the brake until the very last moment.  If traffic is stopping faster than I anticipated, I lift just a little bit more and vise versa.

The Zero offers two set regen levels.  Just imagine an infinite number from near zero all the way to the maximum the controller is set for (by the user).
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WindRider

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 01:53:39 AM »
It is my understanding that the new phone app allows 2013 Zero owners to customize the regen in Eco mode?   

I doubt there will be an easy path for this for < 2012 Zeros.
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wainair

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 02:46:21 AM »
Quote from: lolachampcar on February 27, 2013, 01:46:40 AM


What I was angling for was a linear continously variable regen like the Tesla.  I can move the throttle pedal to any point off of the then current "power on" point for the car and get regen.  The more I lift, the more regen I get.  I am learning to manage the regen to get perfect stops at lights and such without touching the brake until the very last moment.  If traffic is stopping faster than I anticipated, I lift just a little bit more and vise versa.

It is the same in my Volt too. I love one peddle driving. It really is the ideal way to control the regen. The Vectrix method sounds interesting too but I'd have to ride that to see how it feels. I'm not sure if I like the idea of not having the stop being at full throttle off.

lolachampcar, I'm nowhere near West Palm but if you are offering joy rides of your S I'm sure I could jump on a plane and  take you up on that! LOL J/K   Your car is the only car I would ever replace my Volt with. It is a great car that S!
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lolachampcar

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 04:21:23 AM »
my 12 9DS pushed me to look at the S last March.  I am now seriously in love.
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Richard230

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 04:57:52 AM »
When I am in Eco mode I also can come to a stop without touching my brakes.  (I can do the same thing in Sport mode, but it just takes a lot more distance.)  However, you do have to keep an eye on the traffic behind you.  Since not touching your brakes will not activate your brake light, cars behind you will not be warned that you are slowing down and that might be an issue for an inattentive driver, who might not wake up until it is too late. Be especially wary at night or in poor lighting conditions, like fog. A word to the wise - and I don't always follow my own advice.  ???

I think I read that the Empulse activates its brake light when regen is activated. 
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

trikester

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 09:01:51 AM »
When I operate my handle bar switch to the rear to get max regen, it puts on the brake light. I like knowing that when I'm slowing the quickest I have the light on. I have made numerous complete stops in traffic without the brake or only a slight tap of the brake at the end.

I'll alternate between SPORT, ECO with 15%, and ECO with 25% to adjust my stopping distance. Of course I have to blip the throttle each time I want to change.

Trikester
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Tudor

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 02:49:07 PM »
Regarding the brake light, isn't it possible to just pull the brake a little with the brake lever to just have the lights go on? It's not a bad thing to be prepared for a quick stop anyways while rb is activated.

Also I was under the impression that brakes where related to rb? If you just brake a little - you will actually only activate rb, not using the brakes -hence getting lights and rb. Maybe this was a car I read about and not the Zero.. I'm not a Zero owner (yet) so obviously this is not statements but questions.

The -13 mobile app can control regen power, maybe this is on way of getting the linear rb.. hmm.. one could reverse engineer the app to expose the bike API.. but then whats next.. hmm..
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lolachampcar

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 05:02:25 PM »
Going into program mode on the Sevcon on a constant basis adjusting regen to simulate a linear regen function would not seem practical if even possible.  I think the linear regen would need to be a fundamental function of the speed controller.

Tesla uses an accelerometer to engage the brake light at appropriate regen braking levels.  The lack of this feature is a safety issue with Zero in my opinion.
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trikester

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Re: Regenerative Braking
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 08:44:59 PM »
Quote
Also I was under the impression that brakes where related to rb? If you just brake a little - you will actually only activate rb, not using the brakes -hence getting lights and rb. Maybe this was a car I read about and not the Zero.. I'm not a Zero owner (yet) so obviously this is not statements but questions.

I have found on my 2012 DS and my 2013 FX that the brake starts dragging about the same time that the light comes on. I like the HB switch so that I'm not braking at all when asking for more regen. I can always still brake if I need to. :o

Trikester
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