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[blippincott]

OK, Trikster, I'm with you. Stumbled across this thread with a reverse trike / TW200 conversion that is slated to become electric. I have a 95' TW200 myself and love it.

[trikester]

Hmmm... You think it has enough power to do that?

It has enough power, but I don't know what the flight time would be. It would be best if used to takeoff and arrive at altitude and then use thermals to soar to get an extended flight time. An electric airplane has set a 200mph speed record. Interesting that it was the same week that the electric motorcycle record of 200mph was set at Bonneville.

Trikester

[protomech]

Here's an example ultralight:
http://www.beliteaircraft.com/ultralight-aircrafts/

The lightest configuration has a 28 HP F-33 Hirth 2 stroke single cylinder engine. Weight varies between 35 to 45 pounds depending on options. 5 gallon fuel tank will weigh about 30 pounds.

I don't know a weight for the 75-5 motor used in the FX, but I'll guess around 30 pounds .. each ZF2.8 battery module weighs 42 pounds. A Size 4 controller weighs about 6 pounds.

Call the remainder of the powertrain equipment - fuel pumps, fuel tank, fuel lines for the gas powertrain, copper cabling for the Zero - even.

65 pounds gas vs 120 pounds electric.. so 55 pound weight gain vs minimum weight Belite. That should still be in the right ballpark - the heaviest Belite configuration weighs approximately 50 pounds more than the F-33.

Belite lists a 55-62 mph cruise speed, with fuel consumption rates for the F-33 between 2.5 - 3.8 GPH (1.5 - 2.0 hours flight time). Looking at Hirth's website, this puts the HP ratings between 22-28 hp required (fuel consumption varies hugely based upon engine RPM).

At 22 HP = 16.5 kW output, the Zero battery pack would be drained in approximately 0.3 hours. At 28 HP = 21 kW output, the Zero battery pack would be drained in 0.24 hours.

So flight range would be much shorter in this application than two wheeled riding range, approximately 15-17 miles in the air versus ~45 miles on the ground.

[trikester]

Thanks for the info but we are getting off my thread topic now. I'm not building an electric powered aircraft.

Trikester

[trikester]

Here are a couple of photos of the battery retainer strap. It is shown closed with the battery in place and open with the battery out.

The upper part of this strap will be covered by the cut down TW gas tank which will be my trim over the batteries and the top tube. In order to remove the batteries in the completed trike, the seat and the dummy tank will have to be removed. Therefore it would be more difficult for someone to steal the batteries. I'm guessing that with dedicated tools I will be able to swap batteries in 5 to 10 minutes.

Trikester

[trikester]

Here's an old TW200 gas tank cut to become trim over the batteries and upper frame. Also to support the front of the seat as the original was. The very clean tank that I took off the trike will be kept as is, to sell. I don't even remember how I happened to have this old tank but I'm glad I did.

Now I'm getting close to begin working with the cable harness and mounting the various electronic assemblies. This is the scariest part of the project.

Trikester

[trikester]

I finally got the Sevcon 4 mounted inside the frame cage. I had to do some carving on the heatsink to miss some things but it all ended up pretty good. I can't put the whole unit in as one piece. I first put a thin layer of silicone grease on the heatsink and the back of the controller to fill voids and help heat transfer from the Sevcon to the heatsink. Then, like working a Chinese puzzle, I get the Sevcon into the frame cage. Next I bolt the heatsink onto its frame mount. Finally I bolt the Sevcon to the heatsink.

The photos are left side and right side views. In the right side view you can also see the Sevcon HVDC to 12 VDC converter mounted across the back of the motor mounts.

Next thing (& last) to find a mounting position for is the MBB. I think it will end up on the frame behind the steering shaft ("X" shaped member). The little basic dashboard they supply with the powertrain kit will go where the filler cap was on the gas tank. The tank has been cut and re-painted to be used as the body trim above the batteries and under the seat front.

I will be using the off-board charger so I don't need to find a way to mount that item.

Trikester

[ReverseTrike]

Good progress.

Can you comment on how far away I can mount the battery modules from the controller and the motor.
1. Does the kit has long enough wires to move the battery by a few inches or by a few feet away from the controller?
2. Are you using any power extension chords for mounting the batteries side by side to fit?
3. If not, how much more room is left to move the batteries. I am trying to get a good handle of the tolerances I have to fit my design.

Also, I have read somewhere to keep the batteries as close to the controller as possible. Does this also hold for spacing between the controller and the motor if the correct wire gauge is used that avoid resistive losses. how much can I move the battery away from the motor specifically for the FX kit is my question. Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am a aerospace guy.

Also regarding using this for self launch gliders (not to take this thread away) as an aerospace engineer let me clarify a few things,
1. A modified Agni motor (from earlier year Zero) is available as a complete kit from electravia (http://www.electravia.fr/) for sometime now so this FX kit at a fraction can be directly plugged in at a max 3700rpm to a 50" prop.
2. The limitation is not the max power but "sustained" max powered for take off & climb(5 minute duration at 27HP/44HP for FX is required to reach altitude safely). I do not know if the motor can achieve enough air cooling
for 5 minutes. But if it can, this is indeed a plug and play aviation package and the "BEST" one out there too!
3. I do not want to get into the details of the flight but power relates to velocity^3. At 10HP you can still have fly at 70% of the top speed of the aircraft with a 28HP rated engine. Most gliders only need 3-10HP to sustain flight and that is the key that electric is so effectively used in self launch gliders now. You need full power for take off and climb and then reduce throttle to 15% and enjoy the scenery .......BTW, an ICE is not even close to practical in doing so!
I hope it clarifies some facts and I hope to get back to this wonderful build thread.

[emotofreak]

Directly relevant.

I'm waiting to see the FX power system in an ultralight aircraft! If I was 40 years younger that could be me. I was flying hang gliders back then.

Trikester

Hmmm... You think it has enough power to do that?

now that certainly peaked my interest......

[trikester]

I'm jealous! I never went from hang gliders to ultralights because I didn't want a screaming engine in my ears. I would love to fly electric launch glider (I fly the R/C ones now).

The wiring harness that comes with the kit is very restrictive. It is set up for the FX where the battery connectors are side by side. The negative high current cable is a "Y" that doesn't allow the batteries to move apart. I bought another negative cable and cut the "Y" section off of both of them. I will now run the two cables, one from each connector. There are also signal wires going between the battery connectors and I will splice longer wires into the center section of that bundle. There is a twisted pair in that signal cable so I sure hope I don't get electrical noise problems with it extended. Zero already warned me that I need to be careful routing the motor position sensor cable, especially if I extend it (I don't think I'll have to). They have had motor cut-out problems with noise pickup on that cable. I may have to shield it.

Basically, the factory harness has everything in close (like on the bike) so it is very difficult to work with on custom designs. I think I got everything except the battery connectors close enough that I won't have to modify any more of the harness than what I described. As for the motor, which is not very far from the Sevcon, I still needed to extend the three power cables (they are very short). I ordered three 19" (shortest I could find) automotive starter cables from Auto Zone (on the web). They are 4 gauge copper with lugs swagged on each end. I'll splice them onto the motor wires by bolting the lugs together. The motor cables are 2 gauge but I should still be OK using 4 ga extensions, since they will be in the moving air.

Since location of the battery connections seems to be the most difficult problem, because it involves large gauge high current cables, I would like to see Zero produce a plug-in extension (connectors on each end) for one battery. The stock cable could go directly to one battery and then the extension adapter from the other connector to the other battery.

I had assumed all along that the wiring would present more of a problem than the mechanical design. I'm beginning think that I was correct in that assumption.

Trikester

[BSDThw]

I am following your progress with big respect, don't want to interfere always with commentary.

Talking of wiring, did you take in mind to make a revers "gear" to the trike?

I have rewired a lot of my 2012DS and did a revers switch as a gadget. But on your trike it could be a real advantage.

The Sevcon use an I/O Input as a Forward signal, Zero did all safety things (Side stand switch, main power, Throttle opened ...) inside their MBB. If all is OK the MBB switch the forward I/O Input active.
I have installed a second wire to a free I/O and use it as a revers input. A switch leads the MBB OK signal now to the forward or revers I/O Pin (It is a tactile always on(forward) and change to the second output as long as I hold it pressed (revers)). The nice thing it will always work with the original settings only the Revers is out of work when you get eq an update.
You need some one like Harlan to reprogram the Sevcon. BTW if you press it while running the bike it is the same as you do a regen brake. The forward to revers has a separate ramp setting and you can reduce revers speed separately . but never slip off => you will accelerate again

Unfortunately I have no experience with the 2013 wiring!

If you need more details let me know.
BTW The 2012  has a "dead" line in the harness that "being brave" could be cut and used for that so you don't need to insert new contacts to the Secvon plug.
   

[ReverseTrike]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I knew there was more going on the background than just your mechanical effort. Also this is the part about the design that makes me very nervous as I am not an electrical engineer. I am all ears and really appreciate you logging your progress here for people like me.

I also have another question about reverse. Your spyder RT has a reverse and I read on one of the forums that it is easy to incorporate reverse in a DC motor using the controller. You may not need it due to the low weight of your trike but is it something that can be incorporated in a strightforward way if needed?

Thanks again.

BTW, that gull is an excellent example of what can be done today with the Zero powertrain. Mark Beierle also posts every now and then on electric lazair 100%scale thread. The general aviation industry needs these desperately.

I'm jealous! I never went from hang gliders to ultralights because I didn't want a screaming engine in my ears. I would love to fly electric launch glider (I fly the R/C ones now).

The wiring harness that comes with the kit is very restrictive. It is set up for the FX where the battery connectors are side by side. The negative high current cable is a "Y" that doesn't allow the batteries to move apart. I bought another negative cable and cut the "Y" section off of both of them. I will now run the two cables, one from each connector. There are also signal wires going between the battery connectors and I will splice longer wires into the center section of that bundle. There is a twisted pair in that signal cable so I sure hope I don't get electrical noise problems with it extended. Zero already warned me that I need to be careful routing the motor position sensor cable, especially if I extend it (I don't think I'll have to). They have had motor cut-out problems with noise pickup on that cable. I may have to shield it.

Basically, the factory harness has everything in close (like on the bike) so it is very difficult to work with on custom designs. I think I got everything except the battery connectors close enough that I won't have to modify any more of the harness than what I described. As for the motor, which is not very far from the Sevcon, I still needed to extend the three power cables (they are very short). I ordered three 19" (shortest I could find) automotive starter cables from Auto Zone (on the web). They are 4 gauge copper with lugs swagged on each end. I'll splice them onto the motor wires by bolting the lugs together. The motor cables are 2 gauge but I should still be OK using 4 ga extensions, since they will be in the moving air.

Since location of the battery connections seems to be the most difficult problem, because it involves large gauge high current cables, I would like to see Zero produce a plug-in extension (connectors on each end) for one battery. The stock cable could go directly to one battery and then the extension adapter from the other connector to the other battery.

I had assumed all along that the wiring would present more of a problem than the mechanical design. I'm beginning think that I was correct in that assumption.

Trikester

[trikester]

I didn't know I could do a revers command to the controller. That's something to consider, if I decide to do that I'll get Harlan's help as suggested.

I've gotten pretty used to riding the gas "Yamaha" trikes without a revers but it would be handy to have.

Trikester

[trikester]

Here's a photo of the finished and painted tank "body" on the trike. I'll machine a fitting for the old filler hole that will mount the simple "dash board" that comes with the Zero powertrain. The black vinyl trim around the tank edge is car door trim from AutoZone.

Trikester

[BSDThw]

Hi Trikester,

How is the FX power train; at your 2012 (DS) we had the BMS in the battery-box and the MBB on the top of the battery-box. Do you have also some separate MBB?
Is your system assembled with the bluetooth interface?