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Author Topic: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties  (Read 962 times)

protomech

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***Repost from another thread***

It seems Zero is not the only one with a cold range estimation problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all

Quote
Tesla’s chief technology officer, J B Straubel, acknowledged that the two East Coast charging stations were at the mileage limit of the Model S’s real-world range. Making matters worse, cold weather inflicts about a 10 percent range penalty, he said, and running the heater draws yet more energy. He added that some range-related software problems still needed to be sorted out.

Tesla does have a pretty decent range estimation page here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#range

Range loss from dropping from 50F to 32F (HEAT ON) at the following speeds:
55 mph, 7.4%; 60 mph, 6.8%; 65 mph, 6.0%.

With heat off, range loss from dropping temperatures is 2-3% typically.

Range loss at 32F (NO HEAT) for increasing speed:
50 -> 55 mph, 8.0%; 55 -> 60 mph, 8.0%; 60 -> 65 mph, 8.0%.

Note these are cumulative, so 50 -> 65 mph is 22.1% range loss.

I'll edit this post in a bit with a better description of the trip and what Tesla's range estimation software seems to do.


***Repost from another thread***

Edit: Note that I assumed the suburb to Newark trip took approximately 100 miles. Tesla indicates this was at 114 miles into the trip - so add 14 miles to my mileposts below.

I doubt anything in the story was fabricated - unlike say the Top Gear Tesla Roadster review. But I also don't doubt Tesla has their own side of the story.

So what went wrong?

1. Presumably, the driver did not charge overnight. Even a 1 kW 110V charge could have helped keep the batteries warm. Not charging at low SOC (33%) followed by a drop down to 10 degrees F resulted in a similar spook to my trip that prompted this thread.

2. The driver did not wait for a full charge at the Milford, CT charging station. His planned Stonington -> Groton -> Milford route is around 135 miles. With 185 miles indicated, I can see how he thought there was sufficient buffer. Nevertheless, if he knew ahead of time that he was not planning to charge overnight then an extra 15 minutes here could have saved him a ton of grief.

3. The Newark and Milford, CT Supercharger stations are a stretch for the 85 kWh Model S in cold weather. The 60 kWh Model S would have little chance of making the trip in the best of circumstances - I imagine Tesla eventually plans to build a midpoint station. Tesla's optimistic range indicators did it no favors here.

4. Either the driver was not adequately prepped for this trip with respect to points 1-3 or he neglected them. While the Supercharger is badass, a ~800 mile weekend trip in 10-30 degree weather is just four stops to charge is at the edge of the Model S's capabilities. Electing to not wait for a full charge and to not charge overnight is either operator neglect or education neglect. I guess we'll hear more about this soon.

***

Google Maps approximation of his route. 100% guessing as to the delivery subdivision location, but figure it's about 100 miles from Newark. Letters correspond to the locations on the map.


A Maryland suburb, near Washington DC

0 miles into trip. Car delivered with full charge. 30 degree temps, heat on, drove at "normal highway speeds" toward Supercharge station in Newark, DE.


B Newark, DE Supercharger station (~100 114 miles from suburb)

~100 114 miles into trip, ~50% SOC. Charge until full, 49 minutes. 242 miles range indicated.


C Levittown, NY (68 miles from Newark)

168 182 miles into trip. 157 miles range indicated. Climate control turned to low, cruise control set to 54 mph.


D Manhattan, NY (~134 miles from Newark)

234 248 miles. "After a short break". 79 miles range indicated. 73 miles to go to Milford, CT.

287 301 miles. < 10 miles range indicated. 20 miles to Milford, CT.

~300 321 miles. 0 miles range indicated. Car shuts off heater and informs user to "Recharge Now". Journalist presumably coasts on "fumes" into Milford, CT.


E Milford, CT Supercharger station (~210 miles from Newark)

310 324 miles. 0 miles range indicated. Charged for "nearly an hour". Car probably at 75% SOC.

310 324 miles. 185 miles range indicated. Car departs for Groton, CT driving "slowly". Stop at Stonington, CT for dinner.


G Groton, CT (46 miles from Milford, CT)

389 403 miles, evening. 90 miles of range indicated. Overnight stay, no charging. Plan to return to Milford, CT in the morning.

389 403 miles, morning. 25 miles of range indicated. Temps now 10 degrees. After battery conditioning cycle, 19 miles range indicated.


H Norwich, CT (~11 miles from Groton)

400 414 miles. Charged at 6 kW J1772 station "for an hour". Drove towards Milford, CT Supercharger @ 45 mph.

447 461 miles. Ran out of charge near Branford, CT. Car shut down and coasts down an exit ramp. Tow truck dispatched. Tesla pulled onto flatbed (parking break would not release), towed to Milford, CT.


J Milford, CT Supercharger station (~71 miles from Manhattan)

462 476 miles. Charged for 80 minutes. 216 miles of range indicated. "Uneventful" trip back to Tesla dealer in Manhattan, NY.


K Manhattan, NY

533 547 miles. 124 miles of range indicated. Presumably journalist rents a car (ha!) or more likely scores another press vehicle to return home.
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protomech

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2013, 05:18:14 AM »

Tesla has responded, publishing data they claim shows the NYT journalist (John Broder) outright lied, misled, and otherwise attempted to portray the Model S in a negative light.

Tesla's bullet point summary and my thoughts:

Quote
As the State of Charge log shows, the Model S battery never ran out of energy at any time, including when Broder called the flatbed truck.
Pedantic. There's a technical distinction between "running out of energy" and "BMS disabling the battery with a small amount of energy left"; from the end user perspective, the car disabling itself at a low SOC is effectively the same thing as running out of available energy.

Quote
The final leg of his trip was 61 miles and yet he disconnected the charge cable when the range display stated 32 miles. He did so expressly against the advice of Tesla personnel and in obvious violation of common sense.

In his article, Broder claims that “the car fell short of its projected range on the final leg.” Then he bizarrely states that the screen showed “Est. remaining range: 32 miles” and the car traveled “51 miles," contradicting his own statement (see images below). The car actually did an admirable job exceeding its projected range. Had he not insisted on doing a nonstop 61-mile trip while staring at a screen that estimated half that range, all would have been well. He constructed a no-win scenario for any vehicle, electric or gasoline.
The Norwich charging station was a J1772 level 2 EVSE, probably a 30A station that could deliver a maximum of 7 kW to the Model S's onboard charger. An hour of charging did heat the battery some, but it only put about 20 miles of charge into the car. Considering that he drove 11 miles in the opposite direction to reach the charger, he barely broke even vs the original amount of charge available.

Mr. Broder is quite clear in the original article: "Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford." This directly contradicts Elon's blog post above.

Quote
On that leg, he drove right past a public charge station while the car repeatedly warned him that it was very low on range.
Sounds like he rode it into the ground.

Quote
Cruise control was never set to 54 mph as claimed in the article, nor did he limp along at 45 mph. Broder in fact drove at speeds from 65 mph to 81 mph for a majority of the trip and at an average cabin temperature setting of 72 F.
It is curious that his recorded speed was 60-62 mph during a period when Mr. Broder claims he set the cruise control to 54 mph. A small distinction perhaps.. yet it undermines the NYT report.

Quote
At the point in time that he claims to have turned the temperature down, he in fact turned the temperature up to 74 F.
The original NYT article isn't exactly specific regarding when the climate control was turned down. I noted it above @ 168 miles, so I assumed that he did so at the time indicated.

It is curious that he suffered so intensely with the climate control set to 64F. "Nearing New York, I made the first of several calls to Tesla officials about my creeping range anxiety. The woman who had delivered the car told me to turn off the cruise control; company executives later told me that advice was wrong. All the while, my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white."

Quote
The charge time on his second stop was 47 mins, going from -5 miles (reserve power) to 209 miles of Ideal or 185 miles of EPA Rated Range, not 58 mins as stated in the graphic attached to his article. Had Broder not deliberately turned off the Supercharger at 47 mins and actually spent 58 mins Supercharging, it would have been virtually impossible to run out of energy for the remainder of his stated journey.
Curious.

Quote
For his first recharge, he charged the car to 90%. During the second Supercharge, despite almost running out of energy on the prior leg, he deliberately stopped charging at 72%. On the third leg, where he claimed the car ran out of energy, he stopped charging at 28%. Despite narrowly making each leg, he charged less and less each time. Why would anyone do that?
The first charge was because he charged in "Normal" mode, which stops at 90%. "Max Range" would be more appropriate for his intended trip. Probably user error.

The second charge is curious. He charged to a point where he had more estimated range than his overnight trip would require - 185 estimated vs 135 map - but he had already seen that estimated range was dropping faster than actual miles traveled in the cold. In hindsight, 10 minutes longer spent charging here - or actually staying the 58 minutes he claimed in his report - would have allowed him to safely return to Milford the following morning.

The third charge is contentious. He was charging on J1772, which would have taken approximately 90 minutes longer to give enough estimated range to reach Milford. Mr. Broder claims Tesla personnel cleared him to leave the charging station. Mr. Musk claims Tesla personnel advised against doing so.

Quote
The above helps explain a unique peculiarity at the end of the second leg of Broder’s trip. When he first reached our Milford, Connecticut Supercharger, having driven the car hard and after taking an unplanned detour through downtown Manhattan to give his brother a ride, the display said "0 miles remaining." Instead of plugging in the car, he drove in circles for over half a mile in a tiny, 100-space parking lot. When the Model S valiantly refused to die, he eventually plugged it in. On the later legs, it is clear Broder was determined not to be foiled again.
Broder responded that the Tesla Supercharger station was unmarked and unlit. Acceleration logs would be interesting for Manhattan, but I can buy the "over half a mile" looping through the parking lot hunting for the charger.
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protomech

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 05:20:53 AM »

Mr. Broder has a response up here:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-what-it-says-and-what-it-doesnt/

Gist of the article: He claims he didn't set out to sabotage the review, but he can't account for the speed discrepancies or the duration of charge discrepancies.

Margaret Sullivan, the NYT public editor, has a quick post up here:
http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/conflicting-assertions-over-an-electric-car-test-drive/

She's calling for Tesla to publicly release the driving logs, says she's looking into it but rejects Mr. Musk's contention that Mr. Broder set out to fail from the start.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 06:37:50 AM by protomech »
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wainair

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 08:34:16 PM »

This good and bad. I love the fact that Tesla has proven the article was purposely set up to make the car fail it's trip and that the reporter was working too his personal agenda against EV's and has no credibility. But it's sad that Tesla has to data log media runs to prove that reporters are truthful and not slandering the car.

Now if the New York Times is truly a reputable paper it should publish this Tesla report in their automotive section! Word for Word, Chart for Chart, Image for Image!!
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benswing

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 09:47:55 AM »

This thing has been blown out of proportion, but it has people talking about EVs, so that is good. 

Here is a summary of the tete-a-tete:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082296_teslas-elon-musk-ny-times-disturbing-discrepancies-on-model-s-range-reporting

Here is CNN Money taking a trip from DC to Boston (going further than the NYTimes author, but it doesn't include info about a return trip):
http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/autos/tesla-model-s/

6 Tesla owners doing the same drive as the NYTimes author:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082366_tesla-model-s-owners-crowdsource-trip-to-counter-ny-times-report

The NYTimes auto section has their response to the data logs as well.  So far I have kept up with most of the articles and have read a great deal about this.  It seems that most of Musk's rebuttal has merit, though he does exaggerate a bit in his claims.  However, the author was very much at fault and behaved in ways that no thinking person would behave while driving a car. 

I have written a letter to the editor of the times recommending there be some penalty for the author since he has damaged the reputation of the paper.
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Richard230

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2013, 09:24:44 PM »

Consumer Reports is testing the Tesla Model S.  It should be interesting to read their comments about the car as they typically come from the "glass half empty" side of a product evaluation.  If they end up liking it, then just about anyone else should, also - except maybe Top Gear, who no doubt will want to try to destroy the car if they can get their hands on one.   ::)
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wainair

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »

I'm really rather disappointed with TopGear, a show I've enjoyed for years. I can understand how they are hard on most economy cars seeing as they want and their viewers want to see fast powerful cars. Diesels and Hybrids traditionally have been dismal in all but saving fuel and generally don't fall under the fun to drive sporty category.  But I really think they are missing out with the modern electric vehicles. Everything Tesla has made have been amazing. The Volt is no Prius, it is quick and is fun to drive as well as a good looking car. The ELR will be out this coming year and will be a Caddie through and through. Frisker has all the luxury bells and whistles as well as being quick and good looking. BMW, Porsche, Roll Royce, all the big players are developing Electric drives for their model lines and they will prove to be amazing cars I'm sure. I know Top Gear is mostly an entertainment show but to reinforce out of date ignorant stereotypes about what electric vehicles are today is just dumb. For the most part they are not golf carts. Range estimations are getting much better and the power is definitely there. With the Rush Limbaugh's of the world this is an industry that has enough disinformation around it and it doesn't need TopGear reinforcing the lies.
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protomech

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2013, 11:56:34 PM »

Top Gear is like professional wrestling - its primary focus is entertainment, not accurate information. The problem is that Top Gear often does present accurate information, so it's easy to miss when it switches back to entertainment.

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protomech

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 02:19:59 AM »

Margaret Sullivan, the NYT public editor, has a quick post up here:
http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/conflicting-assertions-over-an-electric-car-test-drive/

She's calling for Tesla to publicly release the driving logs, says she's looking into it but rejects Mr. Musk's contention that Mr. Broder set out to fail from the start.

Ms. Sullivan has posted what I hope is the terminal post to this sordid saga. Excerpt below:
http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/

Quote
My own findings are not dissimilar to the reader I quote above, although I do not believe Mr. Broder hoped the drive would end badly. I am convinced that he took on the test drive in good faith, and told the story as he experienced it.

Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight – were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending.

In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored. A little red notebook in the front seat is no match for digitally recorded driving logs, which Mr. Musk has used, in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) ways possible, as he defended his vehicle’s reputation.
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benswing

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Re: New York Times vs Tesla regarding Model S roadtrip difficulties
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 07:32:34 AM »

This has been a fascinating news media extravaganza, and I'm glad there have been some resolution to it.  However, so far it seems that everyone has missed out on one of the most amazing tidbits of this whole thing!   Here is an excerpt from one of the articles following the trip:

http://asia.cnet.com/tesla-model-s-owners-debunk-the-nyt-62220484.htm

Quote
Seven Tesla Model S cars started out on the journey, and while one of the cars encountered technical issues that led to a hour's delay, all of them were able to finish the trip on their own power. 

Tesla fixed the car sitting in Delaware from California!!!  Is that not absolutely mind blowing!!!  The 2013 Zero's have this ability, but as far as I know Tesla and Zero are the only 2 transportation manufacturers that can do this.  I certainly hope someone in a highly circulated media outlet picks up on this point. 
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