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Author Topic: 2011 XU died on me  (Read 2676 times)

Harlan

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 02:24:41 AM »

I beg to differ, Harlan. You can switch modes with the throttle open but the mode change won't take place until the throttle is closed. Even though the mode switch has been changed, nothing happens until the throttle is rolled to the closed position.

I do this frequently with my handlebar momentary switch. When I'm riding in Sport mode, and I'm approaching a point at which I know I'm going to want regen, I actuate the switch while still on the throttle. Then as soon as I release the throttle the mode switches to Eco and I have the regenerative deceleration I want. Also, if I change modes while the throttle is closed, I have to briefly open the throttle and re-close it to make the mode change take place. I've gotten very used to doing this.

Yes, it is a safety feature but it doesn't mean you can't switch while on the throttle it just means nothing will change until you roll off the throttle. Same thing for going from Eco back to Sport. I don't think this has anything to do with the problem he is experiencing.

Harlan, I'm wondering if he is having the same problem my 2012 DS had (when it was brand new) in Eco mode, before you replaced the circuit board? Remember that?

Trikester


The implementation of the Sport/Eco switch on MY11 and earlier bikes, with their DC motors and Alltrax controllers is completely different than on the new 2012 bikes.  The new Sevcon controllers have the performance control integrated into the controller whereas Zero had to do some re-engineering to get it to work on earlier models.
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Harlan Flagg
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 08:28:34 AM »

Hi Pinaz,
The reason OBD2 doesn't work on these, the same way it does in cars, is that the OBD2 protocol was based around fuel injection and not electric vehicles.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

I'm already perfectly familiar with OBDII and wrote my own implementation years ago.  Yes, there are quantities that can be measured with OBDII that don't apply to EV, but that doesn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Reading DTC error codes, for example, is not remotely EFI specific.

Zero already had a CAN bus wired up to the right pins.  There is no reason why they couldn't implement just enough OBDII functionality to be useful (and legal), and then use the CAN bus for whatever else they wanted.

There is no excuse for bad design.
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 08:40:34 AM »

Just an update: I spoke with another individual in Zero's support structure.

Regarding the ECO/SPORT oddity I noticed...

As Harlan said, the Alltrax-based implementation for the MY11 is entirely different from the one employed on trikester's  MY12.

Zero's attitude seems to be along the lines of 'of course it won't work'.

Regarding the original bike problem...

They just seem to want to send me a replacement throttle and see if I go away... I mean... if the problem goes away.

I tried to sound out why he thought this was the problem, but I couldn't get a clear answer.  Perhaps it is as Richard230 suggested that some of the throttles have issues.

I also conveyed to them a warning message I saw from the MBB (listen only), but I've emailed it twice and communicated it over the phone as well, but he just sidestepped or ignored the topic each time.

Here is the message in case someone wants to chime in on what it means:

DEBUG: EepromFindNextAvailableEventLogEntrySlot Timeout

---

Edit for an addition:

Oh, the other thing I was told was that the bike logs everything down to each time the stand is raised or lowered.  When I asked if this information could be used to diagnose the problem, I just got a cagey 'only authorized people are allowed to do this'.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:46:50 AM by pinaz »
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trikester

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 12:21:38 AM »

Quote
The implementation of the Sport/Eco switch on MY11 and earlier bikes, with their DC motors and Alltrax controllers is completely different than on the new 2012 bikes.  The new Sevcon controllers have the performance control integrated into the controller whereas Zero had to do some re-engineering to get it to work on earlier models.

Point taken, Harlan. I didn't know there was a difference in how Eco / Sport mode was implemented between 2011 and 2012. Of course I don't even have that option on my 2010 DS, so I couldn't compare.

Trikester
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Doctorbass

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 09:02:50 AM »

I discovered something after some investigations on my zeros  2010 and 2011

According to the wiring of the 2010 and 2011, the throttle signal wich is 0-5Kohm  is not going directly to the alltrax controller throttle input. It is modified  by the MBB and then the MBB send the mooded signal resistance to the controller.

I wrote some topic about that few month ago.

Now what i tried is to make a kind of bypass ;)

I installed a relay that can switch the throttle signal sent to the controller between the MBB output or the throttle output  ;)

When i tried it... i was impatient to see it in bypass mode ( the no MBB  effect)  once i twisted the throttle the rear wheel started turning really quickly as i turn the throttle.. ( really responsive and not smooth like when the MBB is affecting it)

But when i turned the throttle too quickly, the alarm light activated and the main power relay from the battery just cut!  :o

Fortunatly i know from wheer it came ;)..

It was the Motor current sensor that detected a current spike higher than ithe MBB is programmed to allow and the MBB just cut the power to the controller.

Then.. the next thing i wanted is to fake a lower amp detection from the current sensor of the motor to let the MBB to not cut the main power and allow that high current demand 8)

I have downloaded the specsheet of that current sensor and tried many things to divide that output 0-5V signal  ( proportional to the motor current detected) with a resistor divider but it never worked!... I also tried to determine wich impedense the MBB is supposed to receive form that current sensor signal and to try matching it with the resistor without succes...
The last thing i wondered is if i should add a buffer or not but i dont think it could help...

Now the easy thing would be to just have the wire from the motor to have a bypass ( that allow a part of the current to not be measured by the sensor ;D to make it to see ).. in other words it could have two wires in parallel instead of one and one would not pass thru the current sensor.

I still sont tried it yet but i'm nearly sure it would work.

BUT !

after i have read few weeks later that electric cowboy, offthegris and others was able to read the MBB and some was able to reprogram it with various performances, i decided to put on hold that HARDWARE mod and to continu with the  software mod wich save some weight on the bike ( no adeed wires etc).. just few bits at 1 and 0 and that's it !

Doc
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2013, 08:42:11 AM »

I had another failure of the 2011 Zero XU today.

I was at a red traffic light; it turned green.
 
I went to turn the throttle, and nothing happened. The dash just sneered at me with a full battery indicated and 0 MPH speed.

There was no blink code.

I was in the leftmost lane of a road with six lanes total, and so the only option was to park in the median.

I turned the key on and off, but it didn't make a difference.

After a minute or so, the throttle suddenly started responding again.
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Richard230

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2013, 09:39:12 PM »

That is exactly what happened to me randomly every few days with my 2012 Zero S when it was new.  The problem was resolved with a new throttle assembly.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 06:47:09 AM »

The situation with the bike just gets worse and worse.

I only got about 0.2 miles away from home this morning before the bike died again.

This time, it didn't start back up again after a few minutes.  I had to push it all the way back home.

Zero support is no help; they treat me like a pest instead of a customer.  I clearly document (written and verbal) the problem, and they just tune it out.

They are still saying that they will send me a throttle (just like they did last week), even though they openly admit that a throttle problem would have a blink code.
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Doctorbass

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 11:31:40 AM »

The problem is that often, when you show that you have a bit of skill  or understand the issue, they seem to hesitate to give you the full support.
And..  a person that really have no skill and know nothing in electronic, will have great support  because they know  the solution only depend on their support.

i'm not necessarely talking about zero motorcycle suport, but i'm talking in general similar situation.

This happened to me alot of times and i finally understod that you better have to show that you know absolutly  nothing about the problem and they will see you ONLY rely  about them.

Doc
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Zero Drag racing bike: 12.2s 1/4 mile and 7.3s 1/8 mile

T w i t t e r  :     http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon

WindRider

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 11:55:04 AM »

Pinaz,

Why not just swap the throttle out and see if that helps?   Should only take a few minutes to do. 

Sounds like that Is what Zero would like to try and it has been known to fix issues like this. 

If nothing is changed it will not get resolved and after you have swapped the throttle it will be either fixed or you can move on to the next steps with Zeros help. 
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2013, 10:51:18 PM »

Why not just swap the throttle out and see if that helps?   Should only take a few minutes to do. 

I would if I could, but they keep on saying that they are going to send me a throttle, but then never do.
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2013, 10:52:47 PM »

The problem is that often, when you show that you have a bit of skill  or understand the issue, they seem to hesitate to give you the full support.
...

How sad but true.  Thanks for the good advice.
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cirrus pete

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2013, 01:15:57 AM »

Has your dealer stepped in to help?
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pinaz

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 02:09:29 AM »

Has your dealer stepped in to help?

Yes, I'm trying on every front.  Note: the nearest dealer is something like 700 miles away.

Note this is the 2011 warranty that Zero is supposed to stand behind:

"In the event that a dealer is not in your state, province or country you can contact Zero Motorcycles Inc. directly (888)786-9376 (North America) or +31 (0) 72 5112014 (Europe) or via e-mail at support@zeromotorcycles.com. In any written or telephonic communication, please state the specific nature of and any circumstances leading to the problem."

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/support/warranty-general.php

And here are two (optimistic) quotes from director of customer service Richard Kenton:

"We’re working to minimize that risk for new dealers and customers. All of our current owners and buyers are essentially E.V. advocates. We touch base with our riders for real-world feedback on usage, problems, potential changes and accessories. We are currently small and agile enough that we can really reach out to our customers and incorporate what we hear."

"We now have flat rate manuals, parts fiche and service manuals all online, in multiple languages to service our different markets."

http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution

My experience definitely doesn't seem to support this.
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cirrus pete

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Re: 2011 XU died on me
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2013, 04:31:14 AM »

Sorry to hear that. I have had an experience with them that follows their  written statements. They were very responsive to a number of teething pains I had with my 2010.
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