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[manlytom]

Lucky for us, I heard that the bikes are going to stay the same until 2016.

a good one. Do u mean $ or features ? On both terms your comment sounds like or rumour - or share with us your deeper insights and source pls.

[Richard230]

When I spoke with Richard Walker, Zero's CEO, on a conference call, I asked him about their future plans and got the impression that they would be improving the bikes each year for at least the next three years.  I gather that their current model improvement plans are pretty much laid out for that period.  No doubt the new motor will stay the same, but I am pretty sure that you will see constant improvements each year. Zero has a lot of development engineers and I am sure that they want to keep them busy.

[dkw12002]

I've only heard anecdotal comparisons of the 2012 S and the 2013 S. I was wondering what the 0-60 mph times are for the two models with the largest batteries off the showroom floor?

[protomech]

I would guess approximately 10s 2012 ZF9 and approximately 6s 2013 ZF11.4.

[iJustride]

Great, now my 2012 ZF6 will be worthless and impossible to sell, thanks Zero. They really need to do a buy back program if they're going to advance their bikes so drastically.

[cirrus pete]

Ijustride,
We discussed this issue in another thread not too long ago. All a buy back program would do would be to ensure a higher retail price on the purchase of new bikes or divert capital from new bike development as the dealer would be subsidizing the market and the money has to come from somewhere.  With emerging technology such as this the buyer needs to recognize the probability of extremely high depreciation upfront and either choose to enjoy the bike they just bought for years to come or suck it up and accept the hit when upgrading... Unfortunately, there is no free lunch!

[iJustride]

Well, there has to be something they could do to lessen the blow.

[NoiseBoy]

In 30 years time you can lawd it over the people that waited until 2013 to buy an electric bike. What more do you want?   First out of the gate, ahead of the curve, on the cutting edge. Etc.

[Richard230]

Or you could keep your Zero for 50 years and donate it to an electric motorcycle museum for a tax write-off.   

[zeromotorcyclesofutah]

Since my Zero S does not have a helmet lock, what I do is to place my helmet on the "tank" and fasten it to the center of the handlebar with a short locking cable run through the chin guard of my full-face helmet.

I know of a handlebar helmet holder, or you could install the Kuryakin grips with the integrated helmet lock.

[lolachampcar]

I do not buy the margin argument......

and as we discussed on another thread, there are ways to support the aftermarket without dramatically impacting margins (dealer or mfg).  It does take time and focus but the payback is lower cost of ownership thus improved sales.  It also increases turn over at the retail site.  

If Zero has all the customers it needs and no bandwidth to look into how to manage the aftermarket then ignore it and leave your customers to fend for themselves.  If not, then put some thought into how you can have a play in the secondary market in addition to new bike sales and improve your lot along with those that bought your product.  The trade in sales tax credit alone gives you a leg up not to mention the first contact for most people interested in the product usually goes to the mfg/dealer.  All dealers will place an intersted party with the Certified Pre-Owned group if they just can not or will not go the full new route.

Zero may simply not have enough resouces to put together and manage a CPO program.  They are doing a heck of a job designing and producing bikes and that alone is fantastic.  The CPO is just one more opertunity for the company and one I personally hope they take full advantage of.

The decision will tell you something about Zero (or any company for that matter).  Watch what people do, not what they say:)

[Richard230]

I believe that BMW has a CPO program for their autos, but I don't believe that they or any other motorcycle company, has a similar program for their motorcycles.  And those companies have an established dealer network, make tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of units each year and are mufti-billion dollar corporations.  If they can't, or won't, do something similar, I don't see how Zero can, considering that they are just trying to make enough motorcycles to stay in business long enough for EV's to catch on.  And the way gasoline and oil prices are dropping, and more new IC models are being announced every day, that is getting more difficult all the time.

[ZeroSinMA]

I do not buy the margin argument......

and as we discussed on another thread, there are ways to support the aftermarket without dramatically impacting margins (dealer or mfg).  It does take time and focus but the payback is lower cost of ownership thus improved sales.  It also increases turn over at the retail site.  

If Zero has all the customers it needs and no bandwidth to look into how to manage the aftermarket then ignore it and leave your customers to fend for themselves.  If not, then put some thought into how you can have a play in the secondary market in addition to new bike sales and improve your lot along with those that bought your product.  The trade in sales tax credit alone gives you a leg up not to mention the first contact for most people interested in the product usually goes to the mfg/dealer.  All dealers will place an intersted party with the Certified Pre-Owned group if they just can not or will not go the full new route.

Zero may simply not have enough resouces to put together and manage a CPO program.  They are doing a heck of a job designing and producing bikes and that alone is fantastic.  The CPO is just one more opertunity for the company and one I personally hope they take full advantage of.

The decision will tell you something about Zero (or any company for that matter).  Watch what people do, not what they say:)

I "traded" a 2011S for a 2012S through a dealer. After much back and forth it became obvious that even though the dealer had a buyer for my 2011S the price was far below the list price I'd paid 1 year earlier. The difference was several times the profit that Zero makes on a bike, never mind a small profit for the dealer. So there are two factors that limit Zero's ability to help with upgrades: 1) rapid improvement means rapid depreciation and 2) low margins means Zero can't do much for customers to often the depreciation hit they take in upgrades.

Zero's options are: 1) stop making the bikes better so fast (silly) or 2) keep working to lower cost-of-goods (correct).

By making their own motors and other specialized expensive components Zero should be able to drive down costs and improve margins. That will give them more flexibility over time to help with upgrades via dealers.

In the mean time it's our decision: Buy a uniquely great product and enjoy it for a year or wait for the next even better product next year and miss out on a year's enjoyment. I plan to skip a year and buy a 2014 rather than take the bid depreciation hit two years in a row; my 2012S is still a better bike than anything else out there.

[Richard230]

That is my plan too.  I would like to give my 2012 bike to my oldest granddaughter when she becomes 16. It would make the perfect vehicle for her to learn how to deal with traffic, in my opinion.  Not having to deal with a clutch and shifting should allow her to focus more on what is going on around her.  Then that would give me a space in my garage for a 2014 model.     Both her parents ride motorcycles but who knows if she would want to do so too, or if her parents feel the same about letting their daughter ride like they do.  Time will tell, I guess.

[protomech]

I'll hold onto my 2012 for now, but in a couple of years I'll be taking a hard look at a new bike vs a used bike. New 2014 vs used 2013? New 2015 vs used 2014?

There are a handful of things that hurt the secondary electrics market:

1. Limited numbers of local buyers, and no centralized place to sell online.
2. Rapid improvements year-over-year. "What, your old bike doesn't have smartphone connectivity? How 2012!"
3. Lack of confidence in electric powertrain reliability.
4. Buyer interest in supporting the manufacturer by buying new and spurring further developments.
5. State or federal incentives which can dramatically cut the "real" price paid when new.

Zero has some options to address some of these .. perhaps primarily through their dealer market, which is still significantly in flux.

A certified pre-owned program would help #1 and #3, possibly #4 too. Combine this with a central dealer used inventory listing. Someone walking into the store may be drawn in by the $7995 XU 2.8, but turned off when they find they have to step up to the $10495 XU to get the range they want. "But what about this $5995 like-new 2011 S? I can have it here Thursday."

Providing an (optional?) long powertrain warranty should cost Zero very little. They talk of hundreds of thousands of miles of lifetime on the battery but only offer a 2 year extended warranty. A long warranty would help #3 significantly - and the BMS collects enough information to be able to offer a reasonable estimate on how gently the battery has been treated.

Loyalty rebates would help #2, but hurt #5.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that "alternative powertrain" incentive money would be far better spent at the state and federal level building up a charging infrastructure rather than offering fleeting purchase rebates. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of bitter fighting ahead of us with respect to charging standards, and this hurts any rollout plans. J1772 level 2 is pretty entrenched (new rollouts should supply AT LEAST 30A), but wireless charging may become more prominent in several years. CHAdeMO and J1772 level 3 DC charging have a tough fight ahead of them.. and in the short term at least, EV owners will suffer.