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[manlytom]

Seems ColoPaul and myself had recently a glitch with our 2011 models.

the bike seemed to have lost all power and the motor just growling when trying to go. the first few occasions a reset (key on/off) got me going again. Found overall the motor working somewhat harder and using a bit more battery.  In fact 3 months ago after a couple of growls it seemed to have fixed itself !?

Here a youtube with the "growl" and some whistling of the brushes:


As it is the 2011 with the brushed Agni motor I suspect some issues with the brushes or something loose or dirt in the motor. A couple of occasions I got "Contactor warning" error blinking as per manual.
Contacted Zero and they said they will send a replacement motor. Sadly motor is out of stock and not readily available. And its 10,000 miles to here...

As my local ICE dealer has lost all Zero experts and is not interested into Zero's anyway we are taking it into our own hands! As motor is still some time away I decided to practice getting the motor out and in. In the 2010 one could go from the front by removing fairings and sliding controller/ charger forward. A lot of items to disassemble. Did that anyway as I wanted to clean up, check all connections etc. Took quite some time to realize motor does not go out that way, 2011 battery case seems a bit larger or so. Then go from the back as Zero service recommended (thanks heaps). So jack up bike, take out rear shock, and rear fan cover, lift rear tyre all the way up. Now the gap is just enough to wiggle the motor out in a turning motion. Thanks to the "bluerider" with his Zero 2010DS for giving a hand on getting that out.

Motor is now out ! As new motor is not here yet or not even an ETA announced lets open the motor. I located the Agni workshop manual and read it to understand all bits and pieces. Plus the guys from PicoAmps in Germany gave me some great guidance.

Edit:
pictures show brush holder taken out. overall brushes looked OK, cleaned them up. Measured them and found they are within 2mm of same length. Ensured that brushes travel freely and springs etc are OK and clean.

[manlytom]

here a further pic with the brush holder on the motor. The wide marker indicates the standard position for the brushes. Found that the brush holder and area is the one that gets the cooling from the fan in the bike. Compared to some of the enhancements that PicAmps has made to the cooling areas of some motors the amount of copper brush holder seems small and hence low heat dissipation. Guess I keep that in mind if we get into performance tuning or I run into heat issues at all.

Man, its fun to be working on the guts of the bike ! 

[manlytom]

2 weeks on and as the new motor had still no ETA I figured that I clean up the existing motor, tighten screws etc. and practice putting that back in. Didn't take to long now after I had some experience.

Once all together at a weeknight, late evening tried to run the bike on the paddock stand - error, nothing coming on. Worried. But found a small 4 pin connector into the controller might not connect properly - to late that night to fiddle... got up earlier next morning and plugged it in properly - all worked. motor turned. Could not ride it as still a lot of pieces to put back on...
so last weekend it game altogether, motor seems to be running fine. A bit noisy, just like on the video - likely the brushes finding the "new grind". Will do some rides around the area and report back.

Edit:
found as well info on the Agni motor from the Voltron team at the Australian TTxGP 2011. they crash, damage the brush holder, take it apart, fix it and at 7:00 show an overheated Agni motor with melted brushes - luckily my one did not look like that ! Guess they could have done with more motor cooling somehow. 

[Doctorbass]

manlytom, I have also a DS 2011.

Did you tried the motor on an external power supply to see how it spin let say at 12V ?

My guess is that this famous glitch might not be due to the motor itself but more due to the MMB ( Mani Bike Board)

In fact the throttle signal is not directly sent to the controller as our normal EV conversion are. It is sent from the throttle grip ( the magura signal) to the MMB and then to the controller.

and i think it could be that MMB that cut the throttle signal from the magura grip to the controller.

I installed a relay that bypass that MMB and instead it take the signal from the magura and send it DIRECTLY to the controller. i guess if the glitch is from the MMB, this would eliminate it, ( just trying) because the MMB is a big safety including low batt detection and will affect the throttle signal depending on all possible alarm detection so bypassing it is only at your own risk.

I wanted to bypass it to let the full current from a dead start to get the great acceleration.. but i know also that it will reduc ethe life of the motor.

Something you could test is the no load current at different voltage, this will give a big idea on the state of the agni motor.

Doc

[ed5000]

Hi Manlytom,
I'm having a similiar problem with my 2010 DS right now.  I overheated it while going up a street called Joaquin Miller Road in Oakland, California which is a mile long steep up hill road with no stops.  Some regular cars race past me and I know they burned at least a gallon of gas (petrol ) getting up there.  There's a beautiful view of the Bay Area once you get there.  I was taking this way home a lot but this day we were having a heat wave and I got half way up the hill and the MMB board cut power and flashed my warning light.  I was happy the MMB board was doing its job but I could still smell an electrical burning smell at the motor.  I let the motor cool for a good 20 minutes and went home without any problems.  After that I took it easy but could occasionally smell that burning smell so I knew something wasn't right so I drove it easy.

Then a week later about 4 blocks from work everything stopped.  The motor tried to go but all I got was a clunking sound from the motor.  So I walked it back to work and trucked the bike home.  These bikes are great for pushing down a sidewalk and are nearly as easy as a pushing a regular bicycle!   At home I took the motor out and found two of the brush holders melted away on the plastic brush plate and also a couple of broken brushes.  You're right, these bikes are great to work on.  I love the CNC work they did on some of the frame parts.

My problem appeared to be the MMB board didn't act soon enough in cutting the motor before the brushes got hot but I can see how it could happen.  The thermister/temp sensor is glued to the outside of the plastic brush plate and the plastic itself was acting as a heat insullator until it was too late, not sending the actual temp to the MMB board soon enough.  I think when I put the motor back together I'll add a thermister with some kind of temp readout at the handlebars so I can see when things get warm. 

This could happen to other 2010 and 2011 bikes with the Agni motor so be careful.  The motor may be getting too warm before the temp sensor can see it.  So far Zero has been very helpful.  Right now I'm working on getting it going again. 



     

[manlytom]

manlytom, I have also a DS 2011.

Did you tried the motor on an external power supply to see how it spin let say at 12V ?

My guess is that this famous glitch might not be due to the motor itself but more due to the MMB ( Mani Bike Board)

In fact the throttle signal is not directly sent to the controller as our normal EV conversion are. It is sent from the throttle grip ( the magura signal) to the MMB and then to the controller.

and i think it could be that MMB that cut the throttle signal from the magura grip to the controller.

I installed a relay that bypass that MMB and instead it take the signal from the magura and send it DIRECTLY to the controller. i guess if the glitch is from the MMB, this would eliminate it, ( just trying) because the MMB is a big safety including low batt detection and will affect the throttle signal depending on all possible alarm detection so bypassing it is only at your own risk.

I wanted to bypass it to let the full current from a dead start to get the great acceleration.. but i know also that it will reduc ethe life of the motor.

Something you could test is the no load current at different voltage, this will give a big idea on the state of the agni motor.

Doc

Hi doc,
thanks for the ideas. I pulled the motor out, cleaned it, tightened the screws and then put it back in. Bike on stand motor works well. Bike on road and was running fine for a couple of days. And I rode it hard to test if anything is still loose or does make problems.
Then last night working very late and looking forward to ride without traffic -- I hopped on, tried to accelarate while still pushing it a little backwards and there it was again. Motor growling at me, bike not moving   . I did a key on/off a couple of time and no success, then pushed it around the car park, 10 metres or so wanting to hear if there is any grinding or so - nothing, then turned throttle and she run. Rode it home hard as empty roads - no PROBLEMS ! And this morning, hopped on, no problems either  !
HOWEVER, then about to ride out again to a meeting to demo the bike to some people being very interested -- she growls again  . Some fiddling with key on/off and pushing along fixed it and I went to the meeting and demonstrated her successfully - no growling 

So what is that temper all about

you mention to measure the "no load current at different voltages, I will check your threads as I vaguely recall you posted installing a shunt or so to do this.

I swapped the throttle assembly already as potential cause, Zero reckons it is the motor.

[dkw12002]

My 2011 S with 3500 miles quit on Mon. and AF1 picked it up yesterday (Tue). I had just started out with a nearly full charge...all bars showing after lunch just a mile from home. 30 sec. into the return trip there was a hesitation, then the motor caught again, followed by a second hesitation and no throttle response. As the bike was coming to a stop I could hear the motor groan just like in the video. No smell, or smoke, just no response at all from the throttle. I tried rebooting and the display worked fine too, but there was no movement or sound from the motor. 

[Harlan]

Tom,

The issue you describe with the motor growling is a typical symptom of a burned up contactor from my experience.  Although, the contactor is a very inexpensive, readily available part, unfortunately, it is in one of the least accessible parts of the bike.  You'll need to remove the battery and then remove the back panel to locate the contactor.  You can then wrestle the old one out and replace it with a new one along with the aid of plenty of electrical tape to cover loose connections and prevent plasma events.

[dkw12002]

  My bike is still under warranty, so I will let the mechanics at AF1 fix it. This may be their first Zero problem, so I'll also e-mail your post to Ed at AF1 to let him know the likely cause for my issue too. Thanks for that info, Harlan.

[Harlan]

After removing the contactor, you can verify the problem by popping it open.  Attached is an example of a burned up contactor I have removed from a Zero.  As you can see, arcing has damaged the surface of the contacts and prevents it from closing properly.

[trikester]

Harlan, since this topic is about a glitch on a 2011 I'm assuming that is the new contactor not the original underrated one like you replaced in my 2010. Am I correct? This one is the better quality contactor that ZERO changed to early on in the 2010 production?

[manlytom]

Tom,

The issue you describe with the motor growling is a typical symptom of a burned up contactor from my experience.  Although, the contactor is a very inexpensive, readily available part, unfortunately, it is in one of the least accessible parts of the bike.  You'll need to remove the battery and then remove the back panel to locate the contactor.  You can then wrestle the old one out and replace it with a new one along with the aid of plenty of electrical tape to cover loose connections and prevent plasma events.

Hi Harlan,

thanks for the feedback. Keep getting the problem even after cleaned motor... so, yes likely another cause and probably to the one you indicate.
For that I guess need to put the bike on a plane or boat to your workshop or give it a go myself
Will contact Zero why they reckon it's the motor ....
does Zero have some vids advising how to go after it ? (OK I asked them now).

as for type of contactor, think DrBass has recommended an alternative better, yet wont get that on warranty...

[dkw12002]

I traded my 2011 S in for a new 2012 Vespa GTS Super today, so I'm no longer a Zero owner. I'll pop in on the forum off and on to see what's new and may even buy another Zero in January when the 2013s come out, or possibly a 2012 demo. Good luck. Just when you thought your motorcycle was highway capable, they go and do this:

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/texas-to-open-fastest-us-highway-with-85-mph-limit.html

So if the speed limit is 85mph, that means you should be able to go 90 without any problem and 90 is an indicated 95 on a motorcycle. Think the Brammo Empulse R could make it the 41 miles at an indicated 95 mph?

[manlytom]

Wow dkw - this altogether another type of riding. I like to look at Vespas but riding them I cannot imagine really. Would like to get a mid size supermoto or so.

anyway, working away on getting the Zero tuned and glitch identified. Have responses from motor problem, Contactor faulty to ball bearings. but she runs most of the time and so I am happy.

[dkw12002]

Vespa is twist and go, just like the Zero although the transmission is a CVT, and the rear brake is on the left handlebar instead of using your right foot. The thing I like most about scooters is the built-in STORAGE. I take stuff with me...phone, glasses, pens, pencils, newspapers, soda, gear. The storage is big enough to store and lock your full face helmet under the seat. Perfect for a light shopping trip too. A lot of scooter riders also have motorcycles it turns out. The GTS300 Super goes 80+ mph so makes a good commuter too. I've owned a lot of scooters..50cc, 100cc, 125cc, 150cc, 250cc, and 300cc, so I guess you could say I like scooters....almost as well as motorcycles.

AF1 Racing already has the parts ordered to fix the Zero I had that glitched, but I  never keep bikes very long and was looking for something new anyway and the glitch was a good excuse to trade.