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[Spires]

My fear is the bikes are just going to get heavier.. I doubt anything with the motors as they just switched to these regen friendly types.. Battery? Unlikely.. New model maybe? possible, I've been bugging them for years about making a stripped down DS version that is light, fast and dirt oriented.. My 2011 I bought strictly to strip down and use in the dirt worked out really well.. IT just lacks about 10-15 miles of range as it tops out at 30miles.. The newer ZF6 would do it and keep the bike weight the same as mine.. THe ZF9 would be about 300lbs stripped down.. Just too heavy for hard dirt riding.

So thoughts on 2013 bikes and if I should wait... I want a bike now haha..

[dkw12002]

I don't see how it can get lighter really. Looks like to get more speed they need to water cool the motor and battery, plus increase the battery size for more range. Looks like more weight to me too. They could just continue to have an air-cooled, light-weight bike as an option though, but it won't be their showcase S bike. That will be even more expensive of course. I think $17999 with an advertised range of 130 miles and 100 mph with sustained 85 mph. I don't think they will go to gears so the acceleration won't be quite as fast as the Empulse, but still better than the 2012. The 2013 S with the ZF 10 battery will still be 40 lbs less than the Empulse. New motor, new cooling system, new battery pack, everything else pretty much the same, 45 lbs. heavier than the 2012 S model. 

[Spires]

Yeah.. That is where its heading isnt it? Heavier bikes... Electric is so nice for dirt riding... I cannot explain it unless you guys rode my bike in all the nasty spots I've hit with it.. I will try to get some nice video of the bike in action and post it here for everyone to see. For dirt riding its not just the bike but the 2 hours of cleanup and maint. after every ride. No air filters, no oil filters etc.. I swear my KTM was wonderful to ride but all the expensive oil changes, lubing and air filter maint. was a pain! I get on the bike and go! I live in the pacific northwest and it can get COLD.. NO more warm ups, no stalling, no gears just HIT IT! When Im done I park it haha.. Every now and again I wash it down a bit and lube the chain.

[trikester]

I agree! Electric is the best for dirt riding. That's what I mainly use my 2012 DS ZF6 for and the 2010 DS before that. I haven't stripped either of them down but I admit it is tempting. I'd love to have it lighter especially since my 2012 is 20 pounds heavier than my 2010.

I have said many times, since I started dirt riding ZEROS, that when dirt riders "discover" electric they will want to switch from gas. I don't ever want to take a gas bike onto the dirt again.

[Spires]

You can do a fair amount of stripping down before you begin "cutting" off stuff haha.. I really went at it! I removed and modified everything.. There are a couple other things I'd like to do but I think I'd rather have a ZF6 with the 50% more battery to make it worth it. I suspect a 250lbs ZF6 would achieve a steady 40-50 mile range of hard riding, which really is a good days range of riding.

[protomech]

I've been bugging them for years about making a stripped down DS version that is light, fast and dirt oriented..

Isn't that the X?

IMO 2013 will have standard J1772 + faster 2-3kw charger. I think they will keep the existing ZF3 / ZF6 / ZF9 battery packs, system voltage, and motors. Cooling may be improved. Highway range will go up a bit, may offer aero fairings on the S. Prices will drop a bit.

We may see a super sport "halo" offering. Could have a ZF12 battery, standard aero fairing, dual Agni maybe.

[Spires]

I had a Xero X with an '11 battery and it got about half the rang my DS gets.. It's also less powerful. Maybe the 2012 MX would be lighter and faster for dirt but it really is only geared up for track riding.. Im sure trail riding would be fun with it but at only 15-20 mile range it is pretty much useless to me. So it really is looking like a stripped down '12 DS ZF6 is the sweet spot for some nice 40+ mile trail riding..

I'd entertain a ZF9 but the weight.. ugh.. I could not imagine wrestling that beast around on a nasty hill.. they need a DS Dirt ZF6 fully rigged for dirt..

[Electric Terry]

I think the base price ZF6 and ZF9 will stay about the same, but a lot of options will be available to purchase to compete with the only option on the market next year, the Empulse, which will be between $16k and $18k

So much development went into the batteries and BMS system, I think this will stay the same for another year.  It's a great setup.  Perhaps half the 40AH pouch cells from EIG vs twice the number of 20AH cells to slightly reduce weight would be the my only guess as they're a little more wh/kg.

For the flagship Zero S im looking for:

1) A more powerful Gen 4 size 6 Sevcon controller upgrade option

2) Better motor airflow at freeway speeds when the only real overheating occurs, perhaps with special ducting

3) An aerodynamic fairing option

4) A specificied mounting postion for the J1772 upgrade option

5) A BMS that will support up to the same 4kw charging for the ZF6, but allow up to 6kw for the ZF9 (same exact C charging rate)

6) LED head and tail light factory upgrade options

7) A higher mounted kickstand and options for rearsets that allow higher footpeg mounting

8 ) Use of a higher density kw/kg wide range voltage, sealed weather proof charger like an Elcon PFC 1500 or 2000 or other that communicates with the BMS enable circuit that charges at a full 1500-1875 watts (max output for a 15A 120V Standard NEMA plug)

9) An option to allow max regen in sport mode.  Hopefully a fully adjustable regen option via the throttle.  (you can twist as much regen as you want ---> letting go of throttle can give max regen or you can twist it just slightly to have progressively less, where free wheel coasting might require a 15% twist and acceleration begins to occur after 15% rotation.

10) A $1500-$3000 option to add up to 2 additional saddle bag ZF3 packs for up to 15kwh total on the ZF9, or 12kwh on the ZF6 that would have their own separate BMS board.   And would simply connect in parallel to the + and - battery terminals on the Sevcon controller

11) A slightly longer or further rear mounted seat for more tie down area or passenger seat room

That's it.  the 2012 Zero is such a great bike already, doing those things would make it even more attractive to potential new buyers or repeat buyers looking for something better enough to justify upgrading, so I expect to see some if not all of those available as higher cost options that are available for additional purchase in 2013.

Just my .02, i guess we'll find out in the next few months.

[Richard230]

I agree that lighter is better when riding off road. But for on-road riding, I would prefer a little larger frame and a weight of around 400 pounds.

I note that in the survey that was sent out earlier this month, Zero asked if you would be willing to pay an additional $2000 for another 20 miles of range.  My guess is that the 2013 bikes will have a slightly larger batter pack (something like 10 or 11 kWh), a faster charger and a 240 volt level 2 charging option such as Brammo is offering for their Empulse. All of those changes would be fairly easy to do without sinking a lot more money into R&D and production cost.

What Zero actually does may have a lot to do with how the Empulse is received by the press and the purchasing public. My guess is that the Empulse RR will get a lot of favorable press, but sales will take quite a while to get pass the first 100 bikes. When you start forking out around $20K, that Aprilia, Ducati, BMW, Kawasaki, KTM, etc. super bike for that price or less starts looking pretty good.

[trikester]

I love dirt riding but I'm not a "balls out" gonzo rider, so I'm fairly easy on the throttle (I'm also 77 which probably contributes to that riding style).

My dirt range on my 2012 DS ZF6 is about 65 miles! That covers just about all of the dirt rides I do. My riding is mostly SoCal desert and some Utah desert and CA mountain Forest roads. I posted on this forum the results of my big Klamath Forest road climbs (in June) where the bike far exceeded my expectations on range. When I get my handlebar lever switch done, to move between SPORT and ECO frequently while riding, my range should increase some. Especially if I get SPORT reprogrammed to eliminate all regen there so I can coast the shallower grades without any throttle.

[Spires]

Wow 65 miles is awesome! I am a medium dirt rider and on my 2011DS I get 30miles max.. My poor 4kw battery just isnt as good as your 2012 6kw battery..

[trikester]

My 2010 DS would get me about 38 miles in dirt so now with about 65 miles for the 2012, it has opened up a whole new world of dirt riding for me. I could not have done those Klamath Forest rides with my 2010 DS. If I ever had any doubts (I didn't) about buying another ZERO, less than two years after buying the first one, they would have vanished on those mountain rides. Its been over a month since I did those Klamath Forest rides and I still can't wipe the smile off my face 

BTW - In a week of daily riding different USFS fire-roads I never saw another vehicle or person on those roads.

[manlytom]

Wow 65 miles is awesome! I am a medium dirt rider and on my 2011DS I get 30miles max.. My poor 4kw battery just isnt as good as your 2012 6kw battery..

The 2012 MX batteries have new tech and seem at a range similar to the 2011 DS/S models.

[wainair]

...IMO 2013 will have standard J1772 + faster 2-3kw charger. I think they will keep the existing ZF3 / ZF6 / ZF9 battery packs, system voltage, and motors. Cooling may be improved. Highway range will go up a bit, may offer aero fairings on the S. Prices will drop a bit...

That would be great, then I could use my 240V J1772 charger at home for a quick charge and still have the ability to plug into 110v at work. Thermal management of the battery would be a plus and it will make the battery last longer. I don't know how much people need heating of the battery but from reading around here it seems a cooling circuit would be a good idea.

[trikester]

Of course the ability to charge faster is always good, however, I would like to see a change in the opposite direction - the ability to select a slower charging rate. I'll explain: I would like the ability to throw a switch and lower the charger to say something like 200 watts input power. Then when camped out with my bike, and my truck, I could charge all day from a solar panel. Often times I will devote a day to hiking or boating and the next day to riding. When I'm engaged in other activities the bike would be back in camp charging for the next day's riding. I've done this using a 1600 w gas generator but that is disturbing to the quiet, and I have to carry a gas can in the truck. Plus I don't leave that unattended like I could a solar panel on top of my truck. However, a 1 KW solar panel, to use with the present charger, is just too much to haul around.

I wonder if anybody makes a lithium  charger that can be "turned down" to a slower charging rate?

Trikester