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Author Topic: Soak up the sun  (Read 2724 times)

ColoPaul

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Soak up the sun
« on: April 30, 2012, 12:30:06 AM »

Drove home my 2012 ZF6 #47 3 days ago.  The bike is a hoot!  All my buddies want one now.
So the manual cautions against hot temps: "Do not ... leave the power pack in direct sunlight."
Can I park it outside in the sun while I'm at work?
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CliC

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 05:26:41 AM »

I've left my DS/9 out in the sun for several hours with no apparent ill effects. But it's not quite summer here yet, only 80-85 degF out. We'll see in July when it's in the high 90s. [I'm also curious to hear from some more northern dwellers how it works when it's 20 degF out, though no one may be crazy enough to ride in that weather.]

I presume there's a thermal cutout on the batteries, but I suspect thet the motor's thermal limiter would kick in first.

I usually cover it, though, so it doesn't get spray-painted, misted by cooling towers, etc., as I work at an industrial facility.

This kinda leads into what would be one of my wish-list items for the Zero: a full digital dash that could tap into the bike's CAN or whatever bus it uses and display info like this. I understand their OEMing a generic unit like they did, to reduce cost and development time, but having temperature info, instantaneous kW and cumulative kWh readings, kWh when charging (no more Kill-a-Watt needed), etc. would be uber-cool. Besides, I never look at the speedo needle, just the digital numbers. Seems like such a waste of space :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:32:23 AM by CliC »
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Doctorbass

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 06:07:07 AM »

I've left my DS/9 out in the sun for several hours with no apparent ill effects. But it's not quite summer here yet, only 80-85 degF out. We'll see in July when it's in the high 90s. [I'm also curious to hear from some more northern dwellers how it works when it's 20 degF out, though no one may be crazy enough to ride in that weather.]

I presume there's a thermal cutout on the batteries, but I suspect thet the motor's thermal limiter would kick in first.

I usually cover it, though, so it doesn't get spray-painted, misted by cooling towers, etc., as I work at an industrial facility.

This kinda leads into what would be one of my wish-list items for the Zero: a full digital dash that could tap into the bike's CAN or whatever bus it uses and display info like this. I understand their OEMing a generic unit like they did, to reduce cost and development time, but having temperature info, instantaneous kW and cumulative kWh readings, kWh when charging (no more Kill-a-Watt needed), etc. would be uber-cool. Besides, I never look at the speedo needle, just the digital numbers. Seems like such a waste of space :)

The real best tool every zero owners need ia a cycle analyst!!! i still dont understand why people dont install them on their moto!!

This is exactly the tool everyone need to get all these data!!

it already exist and is really popular from years now!!  at 150$... it IS the solution !

Now you also can also record and datalog every of these data and also can have the GPS option that record each trip with data combined to the GPS position.. all this is recorded in a small micro SD card!

http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml
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CliC

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 09:11:14 AM »

The real best tool every zero owners need ia a cycle analyst!!! i still dont understand why people dont install them on their moto!!
http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

That looks cool, but it seems to be geared more to DIY applications. If you want to get data directly off the controller, it appears that the controller must speak the special protocol this device requires; otherwise, there's some more hardware hacking involved (and shunt resistors? Where are the Hall-effect sensors for DC current measurement?). The smallish two-line display probably relegates it to auxiliary use as well, i.e., I wouldn't want to be trying to read my speed from that while riding. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, just that it's not going to replace the dash unit that the Zero comes with.
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electricdominic

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Re: Re: Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 01:46:07 AM »

So the manual cautions against hot temps: "Do not ... leave the power pack in direct sunlight."

Well, if this is true, it puts a huge damper on people from owning one in places like the desert southwest and florida.  I live in   Phoenix and wanted to buy one as my commuter.   But if this is true, I cannot own one.  What a HUGE design flaw this is!!!
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oobflyer

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 07:11:40 AM »

According to the Owner's Manual:

Quote
The lithium ion cells should not get above 71°C (160°F). Do not store in a hot car or trailer, or leave the power pack in direct sunlight.

It gets very hot where I live (San Joaquin Valley), but I can usually find some shade at work (and I also cover it) and I park it in the garage at home. I can't imagine the pack exceeding 160 degrees Fahrenheit.

My Vectrix battery pack got up to 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) in the summer, but only when charging on a hot day - and THAT was with NiMH batteries. The new LiFePo batteries in my Vectrix only get up to about half of that - I think the Li-ion chemistry is much more stable.

I don't plan on losing any sleep over it  ;)
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Richard230

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 08:27:10 PM »

I wonder if covering the sides of the black battery box with aluminum foil would help keep it cooler when parked in the sun?
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electricdominic

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 10:22:52 PM »


I don't plan on losing any sleep over it  ;)

Just wait until you lose your warranty because you parked it in the sun, then you'll be loosing sleep :O :O
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protomech

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 12:04:56 AM »

Parking it in the sun isn't the issue, parking it in the sun in high ambient temperatures causing the cell temperatures to surpass 160 degrees Fahrenheit is the issue.

For most of the US that shouldn't be a huge problem - without actually testing, I would guess the temperature rise inside the battery box would be < 30 degrees Fahrenheit. But testing is really the only way to determine.
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electricdominic

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 12:24:48 AM »

Our asphalt gets to 170F in the summer!!!  All that heat radiates up (of course) and if a bike is parked on it while I'm in at work, wouldn't you think that the 170F cooking surface (um, er, pavement) would raise the temperature of the bike to around 160F. and doing that daily 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, would do some real damage?   

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blake

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 12:58:25 AM »

I for one hope this is not an issue. Because even here in "frigid" Canada (ok, less so now with climate change) it can be 100F in the shade and I have no choice but to park on the street in the sun in the summer at work or at the commuter rail station. I find it hard to believe someone would design a bike that could not spend time outside like every other motorcycle does. Cripes!  Until now I was more concerned about frying my ass on that black seat after it sits in the hot sun all day. :-|
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ColoPaul

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 05:40:18 AM »

I'm less worried.  I did some searching, and found several websites where people were measuring inside temperatures of cars parked in the sun.  That should be worse than the bike case because of the 'greenhouse effect'.  The batteries on the S are not in an airtight enclosure, there's no glass, and the enclosure is partially shaded by the seat/"tank".
So from the car data, even with windows closed and ambient of 90F+, inside temps were always less than 160F, typically less than 140F.

http://ggweather.com/heat/
http://www.injuryprevention.org/states/la/hotcars/hotcars.htm
http://www.mydogiscool.com/x_car_study.php
http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/106718-safety-arizona-sun-your-car.html

The last example is from Phoenix.  Which states that on a 109F-in-the-shade day, a SUV in the sun, the seat temperature (the seat was 'shaded' by the car body, i.e. sun wasn't shining through the window on the seat) was only 135F.

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electricdominic

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Re: Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 06:21:20 AM »

Asphalt in phoenix reaches over 170°f in the summer...heat rises....bike is parked on asphalt for 10 hours....I don't have a bike, but I presume the batteries are low down on the bike for better cg...so theyre going to be inches from a 170° surface...logic tells me that those batteries are going to get heated from both the direct sun as well as the heart rising off the asphalt....
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protomech

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 07:00:32 AM »

The bottom of the battery box is 12" from the ground, when the bike is parked on its kick stand.

The internal box temperature should be substantially less than the asphalt temperature. Try putting your hand 12" above the asphalt - usually 150 degrees F is enough to burn you.
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blake

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Re: Soak up the sun
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 09:10:45 PM »

thanks ColoPaul for that additional 'homework' you did for us all - I feel more reassured.
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