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[ZeroSinMA]

I've speculated here that if and when the Brammo Empulse ever ships it will either have fewer features or a higher price than originally advertised. Based on the spec released yesterday it looks like Brammo kept all of the features they promised but notice they are not talking about the price.

On the Brammo web site, the pre-order page says: "Price: TBA"

Are folks pre-ordering the bike without knowing how much it will cost? That's crazy.

In this thread we try to estimate how much the final MSRP will be given that the bike has a gearbox, a water cooled motor, 1.4KW more battery capacity and other costly features that the Zero doesn't have, not to mention the fact that Zero has years of production experience to figure out ways to shave cost of goods off their bikes to improve margins. Even with years of experience it's rumored that Zero makes at best $2500 or less than 20% gross margin on each Zero S.

Unless Brammo plans to sell every Empulse at a loss, expect it to cost > $16k. I'm going to guess: $16,995 MSRP.

Anyone else?

[protomech]

Zero S is 7.9 kWh, so the Empulse pack is 1.4 kWh more.

On the Brammo Owner's Forum we've speculated cost at $17-18k. They will have two models, an Empulse R with fancy bits and possibly a fairing, and the standard Empulse which is probably decontented slightly.

[ZeroSinMA]

Zero S is 7.9 kWh, so the Empulse pack is 1.4 kWh more.

On the Brammo Owner's Forum we've speculated cost at $17-18k. They will have two models, an Empulse R with fancy bits and possibly a fairing, and the standard Empulse which is probably decontented slightly.

So Empulse ~$16k and Empulse R ~$18K?

[protomech]

That's a good ballpark guess. It could be easily be $1000 higher .. we'll hopefully see around May 8 timeframe.

[ZeroSinMA]

That's a good ballpark guess. It could be easily be $1000 higher .. we'll hopefully see around May 8 timeframe.

I've been watching carefully because I plan to upgrade from my 2011 Zero S to either a 2012 Zero S ZF9 or a Brammo Empulse.

Best case, if I buy a BE for $16K I'm paying 12.5% more for 23% more weight and 6% more range that should be 12% more range (BE delivers 43 kWh/lb vs Zero 38 kWh/lb).

If we're paying for range, it's a no-brainer, isn't it?  To be $/mile range equivalent the BE cannot cost more than $15,680.

[protomech]

Depends on how you ride. At highway speeds (70 mph), the Empulse R claims 56 miles of range, vs the 43.5 miles the S ZF9 claims (29% better range from 18% more battery). Note that the base Empulse and the Empulse R may have different highway ranges if the Empulse R benefits from an aero fairing.

I do most of my riding between 45-55 mph, and I see a noticeable difference in range when I tuck in. I imagine an aero fairing would do much better. I get about 60-70 miles of range in my typical riding, I would imagine with an Empulse R I would see around 20-25% longer range.

I don't really view it as $/mile though - the S has "enough" range for my around-town needs, it's more a question of whether the Empulse has extra capabilities that I would use. The fast charger makes limited touring *possible* if not ideal, assuming you can find a level 2 charger; very few installed in my area now, but that may change in the next couple of years. The extra range at high speeds would make trips down to visit mom (80 miles away on 50-65 mph roads) possible, even if a short layover was required halfway between. The extra performance? I wouldn't turn it down, but I don't do track days and I can already ride the Zero faster than I should on public streets. It's bragging rights and sex appeal, which are fine by me.

Keep in mind by the time Brammo is building the Empulses (and clears out their preorder list), Zero may be getting ready to reveal their 2013 bikes. Noone knows what those will look like - surely they will continue to use the EIG cells, but Brammo has a supposed battery advantage now.

[Lipo423]

Are you also considering riding position/stile?.
The empulse has been designed (both models) with a very agressive racing concept in mind...not sure what your experience is with racing bikes (I owned 3), but the riding stile/position + comfort -if there is any- has nothing to do with the Zero ZF models.
Zero is what we call in Europe a "F" model, while Brammo is an "R" one

Just a thought...

[flar]

I do most of my riding between 45-55 mph, and I see a noticeable difference in range when I tuck in.

Hi proto, I wonder if you could quantify "noticeable difference" and "tuck in"?  Is this "lie flat on the tank" type tucking, or something a little more suitable for a moderate highway ride?  How much of the 20-25% you predict with a faired Empulse do you see with tucking on the Zero?

[protomech]

Maybe 5-10% difference in range. If I have a long straight it's also noticeable as I can accelerate by tucking in, or decelerate by sitting up (while keeping the accelerator held steady).

About as far as I go with tucking is to scoot my butt back as far as I can and bring my head on the same vertical plane as the bars .. maybe 12" above. Definitely not laying flat on the tank.

From the highway range figures I guess Empulse R has about 80-85% as much drag as Zero. Combine with 18% more battery, slightly lower drivetrain efficiency, and slightly better motor efficiency to get 27% more highway range @ 70 mph.

Ish. Lots of hand-waving there.

[Lipo423]

I would agree with these assumptions, as there is some logic behind, but still see some vaporware in their specs...

Not sure if this is the right wording, but the bars on a raging bike are positioned underneath/below the stem. This is something + the bike geometry, that makes the main difference between a "F" bike and a "R" one...and yes, you lie flat on the tank (there are two main purposes for this, one is the tucking benefit, and the other one is to concentrate the weight a bit more on the front wheel).
Have you ever noticed in a bike race that some pilots when approaching a curve place one of their legs out of their footrest?

stretching their leg? 

[Brammofan]

The empulse has been designed (both models) with a very agressive racing concept in mind...not sure what your experience is with racing bikes (I owned 3), but the riding stile/position + comfort -if there is any- has nothing to do with the Zero ZF models.
Zero is what we call in Europe a "F" model, while Brammo is an "R" one

Just a thought...

You are probably looking at videos of the prototype Empulse, which had clip-ons instead of handlebars.  The production Empulse has handlebars and the rider position is much more upright than the prototype.  No need to be a tank-hugger.

[Lipo423]

I have looked at videos & pictures and the riding position is a racing one...unless they are offering a different model of the advertised one.
Is there any other site/blog to see the final model you mentioned?

[Brammofan]

Until May 8, no one knows what the production model looks like, because that is when it is scheduled to be unveiled. However, the  existing photos and videos show a bike with clip-ons. Brammo has since said that the Empulse will come with handlebars that allow a more upright position. This has been discussed, at length, over on the Brammo forum, if you're interested: brammoforum.com

Of course, anyone can customize their bike as they see fit.

[manlytom]

wouldnt mind to try a lower and sportier setup on my Zero S for a change. primarily to reduce drag.

as for the pricing -- it will be a market determined pricing and not to cover potential production costs. With that they need to see how position themselves etc. etc. anyway, they will be the experts. studying these forums, know some early adopters might pay premium.

my 2 cents.

[Lipo423]

With all due respect I do not get it.
Why do they show a bike (and advertize it), that in the end it will be totally different?
Riding position on a bike is a big deal -this is leaving aside the final performance, which is also a big factor because of drag.
Probably this is not the right place to raise this business -as you nicely pointed out- but, this is my opinion.