Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[stevenvillatoro]

Hi all... new to this forum... I'm spending about $250/month for gas. I'm in my mid-50s, retired, very fit/athletic, and busy building a custom home that requires me to drive 30-50 miles a day (to the construction site and on related errands).

By nature, I'm a minimalist and had a bike for many years with no car. The idea of an electric bike/motorcycle intrigues me. I have no need to carry passengers, groceries, etc. I'm in Southern California, so the weather is generally good. In other words, it's not hard to make a case for an electric bike/motorcycle.

Here are a few beginner's-mind questions:

1. Does anyone know the dealer markup on the ZF9? The local dealer indicated a strong willingness to negotiate price, but I don't know how to research good deals. A $2K discount (or better) would make a big difference in desirability. Haven't seen this topic discussed here.

2. What are the "hidden" costs of ownership? For example, I asked the salesperson about the tread life of tires, and she guessed about 5K miles. She had NO idea about replacement tire cost. What other routine maintenance-only expenses might there be, excluding initial costs of clothing, accessories, etc.

3. Several salespeople have told me that the Brammo Empulse and Zero S (ZF9) are very different in character, but no one can explain what they mean by that. To me, they're both capable of highway speed, have similar range, and are fun to ride. Are most people cross-shopping these brands? Any thoughts about how they'll compare?

4. I hear a lot about the silent/quiet aspect, but the videos don't convey quiet. There is a seemingly loud whine from the bike at speed. The videos also pick up a lot of wind noise, and they have acoustic guitar soundtracks that further make noise evaluations impossible. How loud are they (really) at cruising speeds?

5. If (worst case) I were to buy one, and then decide it wasn't right for me, is there any market for selling used bikes? Would it require a huge financial hit to sell it?

Thanks, all. Looking forward to participating in this forum.

[Brammofan]

Hi Steven - I can't answer all of them, but I'll take a stab.
1. Dealer markup... no idea. 
2.  Hidden costs.  Not much.  Brake pads when they wear out - maybe every 5,000 miles?  Probably about $100 bucks, unless you do your own labor.  Tires are around $100 apiece, and the miles you can get out of them is highly variable, depending on your riding style, terrain, etc.  5,000 seems low to me, though.  My Brammo requires chain wax or lube, but I think the ZF9 has a belt.  Not sure how much that might cost to replace, but you could easily find out.  I hear it's pretty durable. Ummmmm... a tire gauge.  Gotta pay your electric bill.  Gotta buy the proper gear: helmet, jacket (w/armor in elbows, shoulders, maybe the back), gloves, etc.  I also have boots and pants with armor in the knees.  The gear can add up, but it's necessary.
3. I will only get into trouble comparing these two brands.  I'm obviously partial to Brammo.  I think the styling is like apples and oranges.  I'll leave any more detailed analysis up to the others.
4. sound - I hear more wind than anything particularly loud from the the bike.  Sure, it makes some noise, but not much.
5. Financial hit - no idea.

Anyway, I'm 50, ride a Brammo Enertia, and love it.  Welcome to the forum.

[rotoiti]

Don't forget insurance which easily is the biggest recurring "maintenance" cost.

Not sure about a markup, I read somewhere it is pretty slim - around 10%. My dealer was not willing to negotiate the price so if yours is -- good for you.

Welcome to the forum!

[protomech]

Hi all... new to this forum... I'm spending about $250/month for gas. I'm in my mid-50s, retired, very fit/athletic, and busy building a custom home that requires me to drive 30-50 miles a day (to the construction site and on related errands).

Welcome to the forum!

1. Does anyone know the dealer markup on the ZF9? The local dealer indicated a strong willingness to negotiate price, but I don't know how to research good deals. A $2K discount (or better) would make a big difference in desirability. Haven't seen this topic discussed here.

I would guess about $2k. I was offered about $1k in incentives (corbin seat, cosmetic mods, bar-end mirrors, 0% financing) to buy a 2011 bike late last year. Didn't bite due to range. As long as the bikes are selling well you may not get them to budge on the price, but you may get more flexibility in things thrown in with the bike.

2. What are the "hidden" costs of ownership? For example, I asked the salesperson about the tread life of tires, and she guessed about 5K miles. She had NO idea about replacement tire cost. What other routine maintenance-only expenses might there be, excluding initial costs of clothing, accessories, etc.

Yeah, probably 5-10k miles on the rear tire. I would guess closer to 10k, bike is light weight and doesn't have a ton of power. Front tire might last 15k+. Tire cost is about $100 each, maybe less on sale.

Richard230 has posted about changing the suspension oil. This isn't much of an expense if you can handle it yourself, but it looks like a somewhat involved procedure. His thought is change it every few thousand miles.

The manual suggests to check the front forks for oil leakage, but doesn't mention changing the fork oil. It does mention replacing the drive belt every 12k miles, which seems fairly aggressive. Hollywood Electrics has indicated that the drive belt costs about $50.

Other than that, there's very little maintenance .. and almost none of it is specific to electrics. Drive belts, forks, brake pads, tires .. any motorcycle mechanic should be able to handle those items.

Depreciation is a pretty big hidden cost, see below. I expect and hope to get 10 years of use out of the battery, but if it dies within 3-4 years that would represent a very large "hidden cost".

3. Several salespeople have told me that the Brammo Empulse and Zero S (ZF9) are very different in character, but no one can explain what they mean by that. To me, they're both capable of highway speed, have similar range, and are fun to ride. Are most people cross-shopping these brands? Any thoughts about how they'll compare?

Many people are, in part just because there are few semi-affordable highway-capable electric bikes as of yet.

Generally speaking:
* The Zero S/DS is likely quite a bit cheaper, is simpler to operate (no clutch), may be slightly more efficient, is significantly lighter, has regen braking, and is currently available. It also has a slightly better warranty (2 year full vs 1 year full / 1 year parts iirc) and a battery that supposedly lasts longer. Without a transmission the Zero is slower but should be simpler to maintain.
* The Brammo Empulse is likely significantly more expensive, is higher performance (if more complex to use given the clutch), will have somewhat more range in the top spec, has a much faster onboard charger, has a higher top speed if you really want to kill the battery. It has a more advanced instrument cluster and (supposedly) comes with a 12V DC accessory tap. We don't know when it will ship, but August seems to be a reasonable guess. If you preorder now you may not take delivery until October or later .. at which point Zero will be on the verge of refreshing the 2012 bikes.

Styling is subjective, but I think the Empulse is a sexier bike. FWIW.

4. I hear a lot about the silent/quiet aspect, but the videos don't convey quiet. There is a seemingly loud whine from the bike at speed. The videos also pick up a lot of wind noise, and they have acoustic guitar soundtracks that further make noise evaluations impossible. How loud are they (really) at cruising speeds?

At 25 mph you can definitely hear the motor, it's quiet but noticeable. At 45-55 mph I can barely hear the motor over wind noise.

I've been told by friends watching me that the bike is completely silent from 40 feet away and spooky quiet closer up.

5. If (worst case) I were to buy one, and then decide it wasn't right for me, is there any market for selling used bikes? Would it require a huge financial hit to sell it?

I would expect to see significant depreciation on the first year of ownership, in part because every year the new bikes are significant improvements. I plan on keeping mine 3+ years before I evaluate the current stock and decide whether to keep it or not.

Buying and selling within a year is going to be very expensive. Conversely, you might be able to get a great deal on a slightly used bike if the previous model year is "good enough" .. or if you can wait for the current model year to become the previous model year.

[flar]

3. Several salespeople have told me that the Brammo Empulse and Zero S (ZF9) are very different in character, but no one can explain what they mean by that. To me, they're both capable of highway speed, have similar range, and are fun to ride. Are most people cross-shopping these brands? Any thoughts about how they'll compare?

Many people are, in part just because there are few semi-affordable highway-capable electric bikes as of yet.

Generally speaking:
* The Zero S/DS is likely quite a bit cheaper, is simpler to operate (no clutch), may be slightly more efficient, is significantly lighter, has regen braking, and is currently available. It also has a slightly better warranty (2 year full vs 1 year full / 1 year parts iirc) and a battery that supposedly lasts longer. Without a transmission the Zero is slower but should be simpler to maintain.
* The Brammo Empulse is likely significantly more expensive, is higher performance (if more complex to use given the clutch), will have somewhat more range in the top spec, has a much faster onboard charger, has a higher top speed if you really want to kill the battery. It has a more advanced instrument cluster and (supposedly) comes with a 12V DC accessory tap. We don't know when it will ship, but August seems to be a reasonable guess. If you preorder now you may not take delivery until October or later .. at which point Zero will be on the verge of refreshing the 2012 bikes.

Styling is subjective, but I think the Empulse is a sexier bike. FWIW.

I think it's worth pointing out that they haven't released final specs yet (due April 18th) so we don't yet know some of this for sure, but protomech gives an excellent summary of the existing preliminary specs and what we expect to hear next week.

With respect to the clutch, keep in mind that with the Brammo you'd always have the option to put it into a gear that best approximates the top speed of the Zero and then just leave it in that gear for the life of the bike.  It will work fine for all speeds including "stopped".  You'd miss out on its faster low end performance and faster top speed, but technically the clutch is an option to use or not use to change the performance profile, not a requirement to make the bike go like an ICE bike.

[Richard230]

I would be surprised if dealers make $2K on each Zero sale. Ten years ago BMW dealers were making an average of $900 on each bike they sell. They might be making more today, but they don't make nearly enough profit selling new motorcycles to keep the shop open.  Their markup for used bikes is around $1500 and most of the income to run the shop comes from the "backroom", that being the service department and accessory and parts ($$$) sales. My guess is that Zero dealers make about 10% profit on the sale of each bike.

The tires should last about 10,000 miles.  The Zero seems well balanced, front to back, and I would expect both tires to have about the same amount of life, especially as there is not a lot of power being fed to the rear tire.

On my BMW's I typically get around 30,000 miles out of my brakes pads and I use them a lot harder than I do on the Zero.

When BMW came out with the belt-driven F800ST, they initially recommended a 12,000 mile replacement interval for the belt. That was later changed to 24,000 miles, based upon experience in the field.

I think the Zero is a better motorcycle for commuting, compared with the Empulse (which is not here yet). It will be simpler to operate, less complicated and easier and cheaper to maintain, due to its lack of complexity.  Also the Zero is likely to be less of a "thief magnet", as it is kind of dull looking. I expect the Empulse to be stolen a lot more frequently, due to its nicer and flashier looks and likely its rave performance reviews in the motorcycling press.

Maintenance on the Zero should be minimal, other than the hassle of changing the fork oil. However, I may be about the only one that changes fork oil regularly. Everyone else I know just doesn't think about changing fork oil or servicing front forks and their bikes still seem to keep running.

Expect resale value to drop very rapidly, unless gas prices spike and then prices for electric vehicles should stay just as high as the price of gas and drop just as fast as gas prices drop.

Noise is not an issue, compared with any IC motorcycle.  Expect your running costs to be around 2 cents a mile. Compare that with any gas-powered vehicle - and then add in the cost of regular maintenance, which can cost around $500 or more for most motorcycles.  (Just ask other riders what they pay.)

If you pay cash like I do, then you only have to pay for liability insurance, if you are willing to be "self-insured" against collision, comprehensive, theft and being hit by uninsured motorists, your insurance premium can be very cheap. I have a number of discounts with Progressive Insurance, so I get a really cheap rate and I am only paying $32 a year for $250/500K liability insurance for my ZF9.

California will give you a $900 rebate for buying a Zero (as long as the money holds out), but you do have to promise to keep the bike for 3 years.

[stevenvillatoro]

Thanks to everyone for your excellent and comprehensive replies. They were very helpful and much appreciated.

[manlytom]

Hi,

welcome to the forum.

go for a test ride. that convinced me, gave me an idea of the noise and the feel of the bike.

Get the DS if want dual use for some offroading. Get the S for street.

If cost is an issue you might be able to get a 2011 second hand. Range is lower and you would need to charge it up after about 30 miles.

Yes, seems the margins are slim still - and then not much ongoing income for the dealers as nearly no servicing needed compared to the ICE bikes.

Tom
http://www.facebook.com/ZeroElectricMoto

[zap mc]

Hi Steven and welcome to the forum
My overriding advice would be to actually try before you buy, the opinions expressed here are subjective and may not apply to you but you will find a more realistic view of the bikes than believing the manufacturers hype on things like reliability and range.
The Brammo will be a great market innovation but will it be overly complicated white elephant?
I think a dealer will make abut 20% but in their defence they earn every penny by risking their own money on the stock that they have there to sell and as you can see from this forum dealer service varies vastly so pick wisely. Expect the bike to be worth about 50% in a years time as the market price of the offering is presently over inflated in comparison to gas bikes. Some dealers may have deals on demo bikes so always ask or put your name down for when they are de fleeted. I think the market will be awash with unsold bikes by the end of the season as the planned obsolecence starts to bite and the new models are announced with improved features. Let us know how you get on...

[ZeroSinMA]

Did an analysis of resale and it's not pretty between the 2011 and 2012 due to the big jump in range. Look for it half way down this page: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1929.75

FYI, also plotted the EPA range test results for the ZF9 here: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1929.105

You can't compare a theoretical, non-existant Brammo Empulse to an actual, in-production, tried and tested Zero S ZF9.

One of the factors that made me go with the Zero is the company keeps its word. They promised to ship the new 2012 Zero in spring 2012 and that's just what they did. That tells you a lot about a company.

Brammo has claimed that they're soon to ship the Empulse since 2010. They keep missing one pre-announced ship date after another. In my experience this is how the inferior second place player in an industry tries to stall the competition's sales while desperately trying to catch up. It works for a while but then it starts to backfire. The backfiring started for Brammo when the 2012 Zeros started to ship this year. Every Zero ZF9 sale is $$$ out of Brammo's pocket and loss of credibility for Brammo.

All Brammo has to show of the Empulse is a handful of non-production bikes they race that cost $30,000+ to produce. The Empulse specs @ $14,000 are a mathematical impossibility.  The Enertia with the addition of a transmission and other claimed features over the Zero has to cost more than the Zero ZF9 to produce. Zero with years of cost shaving is eeking out ~20% gross margins to dealers, so even the same features on the Enertia as the Zero will cost Brammo more to produce for the first few years.  At $14,000 they'll lose money on every sale. Either the real life Empulse will cost thousands more or have fewer features than the Zero ZF9.

Even if Brammo does miraculously find a way to produce the Empulse with anything close to the claimed features and price, I'd never buy the first year production run. It'll be full of bugs and defects like the early Zeros were.

My bet is Brammo cancels the Empulse and chases the low end of the market where Brammo has a chance of surviving. If they don't I expect they'll run out of money and be out of business within five years trying to compete with Zero head to head.  

Brammo = Dell Computer
Zero = Apple Computer

[CliC]

I guess the question I would be asking is, are you going to be doing all that commuting after your house is built? Normally if you are trying to justify purchase of an e-bike solely on gas and IC vehicle maintenance savings, you are probably looking at 5 years minimum. If you want an e-bike because it's cool, then that may not apply

I don't know what the dealer markup is. I figured the price is what it is, as Zero doesn't have much competition in this niche at the moment. Perhaps that was a mistake, but I comfort myself with the notion that both Zero and the dealer are happy enough with what they are getting to keep making and selling Zeros 

[blake]

dealer near me is selling a lightly used 2011 S for half the price of a new 2012 S-ZF9. That tells me something about likely depreciation on a kind of bike where the technology and range is jumping by leaps and bounds each year.

[craigq]

dealer near me is selling a lightly used 2011 S for half the price of a new 2012 S-ZF9. That tells me something about likely depreciation on a kind of bike where the technology and range is jumping by leaps and bounds each year.

Blake,

You gotta remember that the 2011 Zero S MSRP was $9995 CAD, plus FRT/PDI. New it cost quite a bit less than the 2012 S ZF9.

[stevenvillatoro]

Thanks, guys. Your comments all make sense and are helpful. I'm tending to think it makes better economic sense to stick with my car (for now). Too bad... would have loved to make a case for the bike! Maybe later, hehe.

[protomech]

Keep your eye on them.. they're improving all the time : )

(and if making it work financially is an issue, look at used 2012 bikes in a year or two.. chances are good they'll be avaialble relatively inexpensively, unless the used market heats up significantly)