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[gasdive]

the 2012DS weighs 64 pounds MORE than the 2010DS  it needs a diet
guess that extra speed and range has resulted in a very very heavy battery?
what else could they have added to make it weight so much!

The quoted wieght of the frame has increased by 10% as well.  I'd imagine that the other cycle parts have also had to increase in size and weight to cope with the heavier frame and heavier battery.  This is exactly what Neil Saiki was talking about when he said that lightness was the key.  Once you start chasing "performance" phantoms by adding kg, it doesn't stop and they keep piling on.  Adding just a few kg here and there doesn't look like much but then it begins to snowball.  To make up for the increased weight you have to add power.  To make up for the increased power demands from the motor you need bigger controllers.  To feed the bigger controllers you need bigger wires and batteries.  To house the bigger wires, batteries and controllers you need a bigger bike.  To move the bigger bike through the air you need a bigger motor....  The more you add the more you have to add.  Then having added all that stuff it doesn't actually go any better than the light bike but it costs twice as much.   I still think Zero were nuts to let gas bike people design for them.  Neil knows how to do this stuff right.  Light weight, inexpensive and upgradable.  He knew that the best advertising is having people out there riding them.  Zero seems to have abandoned all three of those principles.  Perhaps in the same way that Apple threw out Jobs and then realised their mistake, Zero might get Neil back, but I doubt it.   I expect this will spiral out of control and the company will bomb.  I hope not.  (I want spare parts in the future...)

=:)

[zap mc]

Although Neal is still on the board he and Banman have been ousted by the money men,
remember Zero is owned by the investment company Invus now NOT enthusiasts
they want to see a return its that simple, this may explain why they are trying to sell the bikes in Feb to leapfrog Brammo. He was a good innovator but he did not understand how to make a mass production item, the two things are different and it is precisely this difference that can mean making money or not. I dont think Zero are making any money now.
Investment $23M :  bike sales = say 1200 bikes @ $8000 maybe $10M over 4 years
Its not a "business" is it?
How many bikee do they have to sell to make a profit?
Think of the massive wage bill for all their chiefs too

[Richard230]

Very true. Heck, after years of work, lots of sales, government grants, great press, lots of investment, a wonderful product, etc. Tesla has yet to turn a profit.  After seeing how they have performed financially, I really wonder how anyone developing, manufacturing and selling an electric motorcycle can ever make a profit. They have to be doing it for love not profit. It would take a complete oil embargo (such as if Iran gets nuked) for the money to really roll in sufficiently to pay back the development costs, pay back investors and make a few bucks on the side.

[dirtride]

With the current momentum of the industry it seems this co. will do great things for our transportation needs. 
-as far as the range.....the hwy range is the minimum distance available based on full throttle riding which is what most people do! The max is stop and go and conservative riding which is how some people ride. So a very accurate analysis indeed.

-most of the added weight is from the power pack and someday when the power storage decreases in weight the motorcycle industry will be amazing......can you imagine a 110 lb mx  or a 215lb street or DS?

[Richard230]

The new Zero S is already about 100 pounds lighter than any of my IC motorcycles. I consider anything under 400 pounds to be light and three of my bikes are just over 500. So the Zero would be plenty light enough for me. And the lighter a motorcycle is, the more fun it is to ride.   

[gasdive]

...can you imagine ... a 215lb street or DS?

No need to tax the old imagination.  The Zero XU street bike is only 221 lb.  That's "fueled" and ready to go.  Anyone able to think of an ICE road bike of more than 100 cc that's as light as that?  

=:)

[zap mc]

-as far as the range.....the hwy range is the minimum distance available based on full throttle riding which is what most people do! The max is stop and go and conservative riding which is how some people ride. So a very accurate analysis indeed.

I would have to disagree with your analysis of range here, the max is based on the USSD which is an average speed of below 20mph and the highway speed is a combination of another hypothetical consumption mated to the ridiculous USSD mileage which make both of them bogus in my estimation. I know what i got on my old Zero (26-27 miles) in mixed riding and i can accept that battery cells have improved 10% per year so we are probably looking at a 6kw bike that can do 33 miles and a 9kw bike that can do 50 miles(  but is $14000 )
big deal, its about half of what they are quoting in my estimation.
We will see what the true range is when people actually have the new models and i hope i am proved wrong for the sake of the industry.

[gasdive]

Interestingly back around 2000 I read a road test of the Yamaha R1 where they checked it's minimum range, just run full throttle on the highway.  That ICE bike ran dry and left the rider stranded on the highway at 50 miles.  So full to dry in just over 10 minutes.

As all the comments sections of every electric bike story say: it's useless unless it can go 200 miles and back without refuelling and must cost less than 3000 dollars or it's just not worth buying...  (perhaps you could plant a rape seed farm on top and make your own oil as you ride, has anyone thought of that?)

=:)

[zap mc]

in the post 2 above i estimate the range of a Zero S (DS) at 33 miles and in a post in an alternative thread Gasdive says " I know I can get 50 km from the 4 kWh DS " which is 33 miles so my reasoning must be correct.

If you are in the business of selling electric bikes then you need to offer a bike that people will buy. If they think they need a bike that will do 200 miles and cost 5 grand and will not buy anything unless it does then you need to either make that product or resign yourself to the fact that you will sell bikes only to a  handful of customers. I invested a 5 figure sum and a lot of time in electric motorcycles only to find to my initial instincts were wrong regarding the saleability of the product. basically the range is poor ( less than stated by the manufacturer) and the price is too high (and getting higher!). The industry will not reach escape velocity until these two factors are fixed and at the moment they are getting closer to one and further away from the other!

[manlytom]

regen power

after watching this night/morning the last F1 - and yes - Webber finally won ! I was riding my Zero and while going downhill and yet another red traffic light stopping my cruise was wondering if a regen breaking - either integrated into the disk brakes or by means of left hand "throttle" or lever would be a way to go. If manually controlled one could try to use that as much as possible - thus controlling the charging directly and avoiding wear of the usual brakes. normal brakes only for fast stops ....
so my  2c without any solid physics supporting it ....
so how do the new 2012 models realise the regen ?

T
btw missed Zero at the Sydney MC show this w/end .... did not see them on the exhibitors list and decided not to go...

[Richard230]

My guess would be that the regen function is tied into the braking system and probably activated by the stop light switch on either brake lever/pedal.  That would be the easy way to activate the system. Vectrix used the throttle, which when pushed past idle, opposite the normal throttle direction, would active regen. That works well too, but would be more complicated and Vectrix may have a patent on that idea.

[zap mc]

yes i think vectrix patented that, a very good idea, it seemed to energise the motor backwards and harvest the energy via the motor, which is why F1 says the brake balance changes when they are charging KERS

[gasdive]

I still don't think regen braking on the rear wheel of a motorcycle is a good idea.

Our petrol bike breatheren go to extrodinary lengths to avoid engine braking, why on earth would we add it intentionally?

The lack of engine braking is one of the *advantages* of electric.

Have a look at this advertising video from Ducati.  They begin discussing braking at the 3.40 mark if you would like to skip ahead.  The back brake is discussed from the 5.00 mark.  He mentiones the "slipper clutch" which if you're unfamiliar with more expensive racing bikes and high end sports bikes, is basically a way of stopping the engine from braking through the back wheel.  They're only on high end bikes because they're far more expensive to produce but people pay the money because they're so good!  However they're not perfect, they still allow some engine braking force to reach the back wheel.  That force destablises the bike on corner entry so to get rid of it Ducati had gone to a fly-by-wire throttle that actually opens the thottle slightly under brakes to ensure there's no engine braking.

[gasdive]

Actually, it's worth watching the whole video and while doing so, keep in mind that Zero has increased the weight from 122 kg to 155 kg.  They've *added* 33 kg to the bike.  Then look at the amount of effort (and expense) Ducati has gone to in order to reduce the weight of their bike.  Remembering that the bike they scrapped to produce the panigale was already the lightest in it's class.  Look at the comparison, 2010 the Zero was 122 kg and the Ducati was 188 kg.  Now in 2012 they're much closer together.  155 kg and 177 kg respectively.   Sure the Zero is lighter and if it made the same power as the Ducati it would be very impressive.  However the Ducati has nearly 10 times the power!

=:)

[Biff]

Actually, it's worth watching the whole video and while doing so, keep in mind that Zero has increased the weight from 122 kg to 155 kg.  They've *added* 33 kg to the bike.  Then look at the amount of effort (and expense) Ducati has gone to in order to reduce the weight of their bike.  Remembering that the bike they scrapped to produce the panigale was already the lightest in it's class.  Look at the comparison, 2010 the Zero was 122 kg and the Ducati was 188 kg.  Now in 2012 they're much closer together.  155 kg and 177 kg respectively.   Sure the Zero is lighter and if it made the same power as the Ducati it would be very impressive.  However the Ducati has nearly 10 times the power!

=:)

According to the Spec page for the 2012 Zero, http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php the ZF6 based bike (which I am pretty sure has more battery capacity than the 2011 bikes) is 135kg, but you have the option of buying the 155kg bike if you want to have the larger range.

-ryan