ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

  • January 19, 2018, 07:27:44 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Electric Motorcycle Forum is live!

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Zero 2012 models now announced  (Read 3001 times)

zap mc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Zero 2012 models now announced
« on: November 08, 2011, 05:20:46 PM »

They are headlining with a 114 miles range claim, again setting an unrealistic expectation for the customer, time will tell how many miles they really go but they do look to have some technological leaps and bounds.
The battery and motor combination seems to go twice as far even allowing for the 36% reduction for the claimed mileage.
Regen braking looks very good and how much this contributes to the overall mix will remain to be seen but a good step forward technologically.
What the bikes gain in features they lose in lightness and affordability weighing in at a whopping 300 and 341 lbs, who wants to ride a Zero DS on the dirt with that tonnage?
Who will buy a $10 000 electric bike anyway even with rebates? Zero previously said they were avoiding regen because it only gained about 10% range but added over $1000 to the price but now they seem to have reversed that opinion as maybe it was more cost effective to engineer that feature into their own drive train.
Alloy wheels look nice and may save some weight and there is the ongoing fetish with brakes but you have to question the sanity of having a mostly black and silent bike like the DS that will appear in your mirrors at 88mph?
The off road bikes still have the woefully inadequate suspension that is the achilles heel of the off road range. Interestingly the MX retains the chain drive which seems to hint at the limitations of the belt drive for dirt use. It will be interesting to see how this line up fares against the Brammo geared offering...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 05:29:08 PM by zap mc »
Logged

skadamo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 10:36:01 AM »

Sorry, not sure how I missed this post!

They are headlining with a 114 miles range claim, again setting an unrealistic expectation for the customer, time will tell how many miles they really go but they do look to have some technological leaps and bounds.
Wes at Hellforleathermagazine.com said he talked to Scott (i think) at Zero and he said they are very accurate on this. Like you said, we will see :D

The battery and motor combination seems to go twice as far even allowing for the 36% reduction for the claimed mileage.
Regen braking looks very good and how much this contributes to the overall mix will remain to be seen but a good step forward technologically.
What the bikes gain in features they lose in lightness and affordability weighing in at a whopping 300 and 341 lbs, who wants to ride a Zero DS on the dirt with that tonnage?
Who will buy a $10 000 electric bike anyway even with rebates? Zero previously said they were avoiding regen because it only gained about 10% range but added over $1000 to the price but now they seem to have reversed that opinion as maybe it was more cost effective to engineer that feature into their own drive train.
I think Neil Saiki felt this way about regen. I'm glad that line of thought has changed. Electric motorcycles need to exploit the geek factor. I rode a motorcycle with regen (Enertrac TTXGP bike) and got a huge kick out of hitting the regen to stop. Major cool points in my book.

Alloy wheels look nice and may save some weight and there is the ongoing fetish with brakes but you have to question the sanity of having a mostly black and silent bike like the DS that will appear in your mirrors at 88mph?
The off road bikes still have the woefully inadequate suspension that is the achilles heel of the off road range. Interestingly the MX retains the chain drive which seems to hint at the limitations of the belt drive for dirt use. It will be interesting to see how this line up fares against the Brammo geared offering...

Don't forget the extremely large and vulnerable sprocket on the MX :D

I think they will fix all these things next year. Brammo played the 100 mile range card early and that kind of forced Zero to go that direction. Now KTM is in the game with good suspension and some steps up in many places. I'm betting Zero is working on that for 2013. KTM will be trying to fix their power and range issues :D
Logged

manlytom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
    • View Profile
    • Fans of Zero MC for Australia - pls support
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 06:10:25 PM »

I think Neil Saiki felt this way about regen. I'm glad that line of thought has changed. Electric motorcycles need to exploit the geek factor. I rode a motorcycle with regen (Enertrac TTXGP bike) and got a huge kick out of hitting the regen to stop. Major cool points in my book.

now tell me why regen would add so much weight. Formula 1 cars use regen PLUS "kers" to even store engery. now the later adds weight and they are running ICE. With electric motors regen is "build in" - just the electronics are more complex... happy to learn from you experts if I am off. I just know that the Agni motor with brushes is not my favourite ... used it, used it.,,...

T
Logged
Tom
bikes: Kreidler RMC, Kawasaki Z650, Honda VT600, Zero 2010S, Harley XL1200 roadster, Zero 2011S -- all of them sold, Zero 2014S
http://www.facebook.com/ZeroElectricMoto

zap mc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 04:16:46 AM »

Sorry, not sure how I missed this post!

They are headlining with a 114 miles range claim, again setting an unrealistic expectation for the customer, time will tell how many miles they really go but they do look to have some technological leaps and bounds.
Wes at Hellforleathermagazine.com said he talked to Scott (i think) at Zero and he said they are very accurate on this. Like you said, we will see :D

Yes i agree that the statement is accurate BUT...Just look at eactly what they are saying "As measured by the EPA UDDS, the Zero S is capable of respectively achieving 76 or 114 miles."

Has anyone actually looked at the cycle for the EPA UDDS? basically its riding at an average speed of under 20mph!! no wonder they are quoting large range figures! Its just weasel words in my book as they bear no relation to what people will do in the real world but Zero now proobably feel duty bound to match Brammo in the bullsh1t war and make a mockery of the whole industry. Someone needs to actually ride one NORMALLY and see what it does, as we can see from this site what is claimed and what you get are two different things.
Logged

Biff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 06:31:40 AM »

Sorry, not sure how I missed this post!

They are headlining with a 114 miles range claim, again setting an unrealistic expectation for the customer, time will tell how many miles they really go but they do look to have some technological leaps and bounds.
Wes at Hellforleathermagazine.com said he talked to Scott (i think) at Zero and he said they are very accurate on this. Like you said, we will see :D

Yes i agree that the statement is accurate BUT...Just look at eactly what they are saying "As measured by the EPA UDDS, the Zero S is capable of respectively achieving 76 or 114 miles."

Has anyone actually looked at the cycle for the EPA UDDS? basically its riding at an average speed of under 20mph!! no wonder they are quoting large range figures! Its just weasel words in my book as they bear no relation to what people will do in the real world but Zero now proobably feel duty bound to match Brammo in the bullsh1t war and make a mockery of the whole industry. Someone needs to actually ride one NORMALLY and see what it does, as we can see from this site what is claimed and what you get are two different things.

On Zero's website on the specs of the bikes (example: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php ), they also list a Highway commuting range, if you click on the little question mark they explan the logic behind it.  For the ZF9 battery you should expect 63miles of commuting, with the ZF6 battery, expect around 43miles.  This seems to match the ratio of real world mileage that people are achieving vs UDDS simulations for the 2011's.  Are there any other electric motorcycle manufacturers who are actually performing true UDDS or other repeatable range simulations?

-ryan
Logged

gasdive

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 10:45:33 AM »

I still think it's a very strange choice to put regen on a motorcycle.  The increase in range is going to be tiny (I think 10% is a huge over estimate).  The down side is rear wheel braking that upsets the dynamics of the bike.  The gas bikes are spending lots of money looking for ways to eliminate engine braking with things like one way clutches.  Why on earth would we *intentionally* put in something that they're trying to engineer out????

=:)
Logged
Blogging my Zero DS from day one.
http://zerods.blogspot.com/

Biff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 01:03:04 PM »

I still think it's a very strange choice to put regen on a motorcycle.  The increase in range is going to be tiny (I think 10% is a huge over estimate).  The down side is rear wheel braking that upsets the dynamics of the bike.  The gas bikes are spending lots of money looking for ways to eliminate engine braking with things like one way clutches.  Why on earth would we *intentionally* put in something that they're trying to engineer out????

=:)

I don't believe that Zero claims 10%increase in range through regen.  I agree 10% is a huge over estimate. If done well, having a throttle that can have regen when totally off throttle or when applying brake, but coast when the throttle is cracked just a bit should be rather nice.  Having a sport mode and eco mode that have different levels of regen and aggressiveness of that regen would be a nice feature as well.  I would bet that there has been quite a bit of development on how the regen system feels from a variety of different riders with different styles at zero, and they are putting something out there that will best suit a wide variety of customers.

-ryan
Logged

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4991
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 10:00:18 PM »

I own a GPR-S (whose batteries died after about 1000 miles) with regen and I live in a very hilly area. The regen provided between 1 and 2% additional range, compared with turning it off (which I could do by reprogramming the controller). Regen saves brake pads and can be fun to use, but does not make a big difference in range on a lightweight vehicle. I can live without it.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

skadamo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 10:27:04 PM »

Thanks for the real world experience Richard. Wonder if Zero will be able to get more than 2%?

I've heard some cells will charge via regen faster than others and a constant rate or recharge is not always as fast as pulsing the charge. (heard this from Chip Yates in a phone conv.) I wonder if Zero has worked on the technology at all.
Logged

zap mc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 02:48:54 AM »


On Zero's website on the specs of the bikes (example: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php ), they also list a Highway commuting range, if you click on the little question mark they explan the logic behind it.  For the ZF9 battery you should expect 63miles of commuting, with the ZF6 battery, expect around 43miles.  This seems to match the ratio of real world mileage that people are achieving vs UDDS simulations for the 2011's.  Are there any other electric motorcycle manufacturers who are actually performing true UDDS or other repeatable range simulations?

-ryan
[/quote]
Ryan thanks for pointing that out. So what they are saying is that the standard bike does 43 miles. I think i am right in assuming it did 42 miles last year? no great improvement then. This is what they have to say about the basis for their highway calculation
"For 2012, in order to give our customers additional range information, Zero collaborated diligently with the Motorcycle Industry Council on the development of a new "Highway range" test and reporting standard for electric motorcycles. This new standard is meant to provide a range value riders can expect to achieve when using the motorcycle for highway commuting. It is based on an extensive 3rd party research which concluded that, when coupled with the distance traveled on city roads getting to and from the highway, as well as the distance spent in highway congestion, the average "highway commute" is made up of 50% steady-state high speed riding and 50% city-like riding. For Zero's higher top-speed S and DS models, the steady-state high speed used in this test and reporting standard is 70 mph. For Zero's lower top-speed XU, this speed is 55 mph.
The Formula:
S and DS 70 mph Highway Commuting Range = 1 / [0.5/(70 mph steady-state range) + 0.5/(EPA UDDS range)]
XU 55 mph Highway Commuting Range = 1 / [0.5/(55 mph steady-state range) + 0.5/(EPA UDDS range)]

I cant really understand what that ratio is meant to mean but i can see that a large proportion is based on the EPA UUDDS calculation which is  a bit bogus in my opinion.
Logged

gasdive

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 04:36:14 AM »

I'd be interested to see what the actual range at 70 mph is.  The "highway commuting range" is too confusing for words...  From what I can figure out the range estimates for commuting include things like idleing time which is of no use at all. 

=:)
Logged
Blogging my Zero DS from day one.
http://zerods.blogspot.com/

rollandelliott

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 04:41:05 AM »

Well the 2010DS does around 20 to 25 miles at 50 to 55mph from my own experience
the 2011DS accoridng to memebers of this board gets a few more miles which agrees with Zero's claims on improved battery life of around 20%
And the 2012 claims around 42 miles at highway speeds which is double the zero 2010DS which is exactly what they claim on their web site, that the battery is about 2x the power.

NOW I'D LOVE TO PUT THAT BATTER IN MY 2010, BUT I DOUBT I'LL BE ABLE TO!!!! I'LL JUST WAIT A FEW YEARS AND BUY A USED 2012 FOR HALF THE PRICE OF A NEW ONE!
Logged

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4991
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 04:45:41 AM »

I might add that the regen on my bike would peak at around 60 amps when slowing down from 60 mph, but 30 amps (into the 72 V, 50 Ah battery pack) was more typical when riding down a hill at around 40 mph. However, this amperage (which showed up on my Cycle Analyst) would only last for a few seconds as the bike had a high percentage of regen programed into the controller and would slow down relatively rapidly when the brakes were being used (which activated the regen).

I would have preferred the Vectrix system of pushing the throttle passed closed to activate regen, so that you didn't have to use the brakes to get it.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Biff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Zero 2012 models now announced
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 04:56:17 AM »

Ryan thanks for pointing that out. So what they are saying is that the standard bike does 43 miles. I think i am right in assuming it did 42 miles last year? no great improvement then.
In 2011 the EPA UDDS range was 42 miles (I believe).  I know that if you ride around town, on streets with 25-35mph speed limits, adhere to those speed limits and don't accelerate faster than the cars around you, you will actually get really close to that 43 miles.  I also know that nobody actually rides like that; in reality most people report getting between 23-27miles on a charge.  So the ratio mileage reported by riders to UDDS is 25:43 or about 0.6 .  In 2012 the UDDS advertised range for the S is 76miles / 114miles (zf6/zf9 battery) and the Commuter expected range is 43 / 63 miles.  Those ratios work out to 43:76 = 0.56  and 63:114 = 0.55.  So I would bet that most people will actually be able to go the advertized "commuter" distance, hopefully when people start reporting their actual mileage from their 2012 bikes this will be the case, if that commuter calculation doesn't match up to "real world" I am sure Zero will try and adopt a different way of calculating / simulating real world range. 

I know that when traveling at 70mph rider position will have a huge effect on range.  Sitting up straight and riding along at 70mph will eat up your battery pretty quickly.  Getting in a tuck will probably decrease your power consumed at 70mph by 15-20%.  This will probably have a pretty large effect on the range that people get on these bikes which are capable of such high speeds.

-ryan
Logged

rollandelliott

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
the 2012DS weighs 64 pounds MORE than the 2010DS it needs a diet
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 06:32:33 AM »

the 2012DS weighs 64 pounds MORE than the 2010DS  it needs a diet
guess that extra speed and range has resulted in a very very heavy battery?
what else could they have added to make it weight so much!
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3