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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on January 11, 2018, 09:31:46 PM

Title: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 11, 2018, 09:31:46 PM
I figure that with Zero it is never too early to start moaning about what we would like to see in the way of their future models. (Although my guess is that they likely already have the 2019 models pretty much worked out by now.)  Anyway, I'll start my modest list:

1. I am still looking for a softer seat.
2. I would like to see a larger chassis that would offer more battery storage room, more room for passenger comfort and mounting luggage.
3. A change in the styling and a return to shiny paint.
4. A more streamlined front end, or at least a model with a 1/4 or 1/2 fairing, such is offered by most Japanese manufacturers.
5. It is probably time for Zero to introduce a cruiser design as that market appears to be pretty much wide open.
6. Real firmware updates via smart phone, as is currently advertised in their product description, but not currently available.
7. A longer tire hugger that would do a better job of keeping gorp off of the shock assembly and the controller.
8. Factory installation of the "rain guard", or something similar, to keep road gorp from being flung on to passengers.
9. Improved factory spare parts stocking and more rapid shipping after receiving customer or shop repair orders from their retail dealers.
10. Finally (for the moment) I think it about time for a new TFT color instrument display, which is rapidly becoming the standard in the motorcycle industry.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Shocker on January 11, 2018, 10:49:44 PM
Looking to jump into an electric bike this spring and at first glance I thought Zero was the ticket but because Zero hasn’t addresses some of these wish list items already I’m a little reluctant. I can see from this forum most of these wish list items have been desired for years with no change. Is my take on this correct or am I being unfair to a relatively young company? 🧐
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: heroto on January 11, 2018, 11:50:31 PM
What people will and won't buy is highly personal and no doubt the subject of intense research by the manufacturers.
With the longer range and new charge tank in the 2018 SR, Zero finally makes a moto I'm willing to buy, despite the crazy high price. For others, the threshold is different.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Keith on January 12, 2018, 01:29:44 AM
Read this. We need more riders not more features. http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Home/News-Story/advocating-for-motorcyclings-future

Scott Harden...is well known as a brand builder, team manager, sales professional and product planner with such companies as Husqvarna, KTM, BMW and Zero Motorcycles.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: domingo3 on January 12, 2018, 02:53:26 AM
Ha ha.  I thought about posting a thread for this the day after the 2018s were announced, but I showed a little restraint  8)

 
My primary list is short:

1.  Ability to program three rider modes instead of just custom.
2.  Progressive regen.

Another thing I'd like to see in the future:

3.  Poor man's traction control - a defeatable option that limits spinup of the back wheel

Then there's the obvious:

4.  More range
5.  Lower cost

And the hopeful:

6.  Firmware updates that don't break the bikes
7.  A change log for firmware updates
8.  Better dealer network and responsiveness to issues
9.  Less performance surprises, e.g. current limiting in cold weather
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: JaimeC on January 12, 2018, 02:53:40 AM
Right.  Keep them practical and affordable.  A lot of the things people have on their wish lists would blast the MSRP up into "Lightning" or "Energica" levels.

It would be nice if Zero developed some accessories that we could add at extra cost, but I'd leave the base bike alone and just work on refinements.  The 2018 Charge Tank is a HUGE improvement in my eyes.  Hollywood Electrics is working on a frame-mounted sport touring fairing that should be available "Real Soon Now."

Corbin makes replacement saddles, and there are several custom saddle makers out there that would be more than happy to take your stock seat pan and build your ideal saddle.

Just keep evolving the battery and motor technology.  Everything else will fall into place on its own.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 12, 2018, 02:53:50 AM
I think Zero is doing the best that they can, considering their financial resources and the state of the electric motorcycle market, which is pretty limp compared with trying to sell any other electric vehicle, thanks to the very conservative nature of most motorcycle buyers.  But that doesn't mean we can't dream about the future and give Zero some hints regarding what their customers would like to see them introduce some day should they get another big infusion of cash.  ;) 
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: vinceherman on January 12, 2018, 03:55:09 AM
Since it was asked again, I will answer again; Cruise Control
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Cama on January 12, 2018, 04:08:01 AM
Cruise control is my favorite, too.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 12, 2018, 05:00:51 AM
I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition.  More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two.  Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Marshm on January 12, 2018, 05:05:04 AM
From what I read, I would think reliability would be the top item.  I have heard reasons people do not buy a zero is due to reliability issues. Based on the numbers in the spec sheet the bikes look good. They don't want a project bike. 
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: ZeroPointZero on January 12, 2018, 08:53:09 AM
I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition.  More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two.  Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.

Isnt your 2018 S technically as powerful as an SR, with the same 600AMP motor?
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: calamarichris on January 12, 2018, 11:42:07 AM
Nothing that will add any weight or complexity to the bike, only a retrofittable sport-touring fairing.
Preferably one made as truly aerodynamic as possible, instead of resembling the latest origami stealth-bomber graphics.

(http://stat.overdrive.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Kawasaki-ZX10R-vs-Austa-MV-F4-37.jpg)

And I must respectfully disagree with cruise control, as these are not really interstate bikes.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: TheGap on January 12, 2018, 06:38:09 PM
I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition.  More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two.  Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
Same experience on my 2017 SR.
Even lowsided it once.  :(   ... still have the footage from my helmcam  ;)
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: JaimeC on January 12, 2018, 07:12:13 PM
Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle.  ABS yes... but traction control?  You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it.  Learn how to "read the road."  If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle.  It is THAT simple.  If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.

Some of those things include:

Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 12, 2018, 09:11:58 PM
I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition.  More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two.  Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.

Isnt your 2018 S technically as powerful as an SR, with the same 600AMP motor?

My S apparently uses an updated Sevcon controller that will put out 550 amps for a few seconds.  I think I read somewhere that it is good for 200 amps, continuous. I believe that the SR uses a more powerful controller that will produce more power from the motor, at least for a while until things start getting too hot.  (I don't know how much difference the different motor magnets used in the S and SR motors make during power production in the long run, but I am sure that the SR can likely generate more power than an S for a longer period of time.)  ???

In any case, it doesn't feel any faster than did my 2014 S, with its 400 amp controller.  However, it would be interesting if someone would test the stock Zeros at a drag strip to see how much difference there is between an S and an SR.  I can tell you that both my 2014 and 2018 models feel really heavy with their power tanks in place of the stock stuff box. I believe that the 2018 S weighs 452 pounds, about 10 more than the 2014 S (likely due to the better suspension components and the ABS system). In any case, there is quite a variation in weight between the various Zero models based upon the batteries installed and that would likely have a considerable impact on acceleration (and handling), but probably not top speed.   ???
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: stevenh on January 12, 2018, 09:15:05 PM
Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle.  ABS yes... but traction control?  You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it.  Learn how to "read the road."  If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle.  It is THAT simple.  If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.

Some of those things include:

Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network

I have a different opinion on traction control.  I have dumped the bike once when traversing a puddle in my driveway under acceleration, it seems the bike has a real tendency to kick the tire out while spinning, more so than any other bike I have had.  I've also had some bad experiences with paint at intersections.  While I agree some of this simply due to overdoing it on my part, there is no reason NOT to include traction control on an electronic speed controlled vehicle (as an option).   Has anyone else noticed the tendency for the wheel to kick out really quickly?  Anything that helps keep me off the pavement is "useful" in my book!

Steve

Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 12, 2018, 09:16:22 PM
Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle.  ABS yes... but traction control?  You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it.  Learn how to "read the road."  If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle.  It is THAT simple.  If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.

Some of those things include:

Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network

That is about the same for me. I have ridden IC motorcycles for about 800,000 miles and never spun a rear wheel.  However, I have found that the Zero produces power so much differently than my IC bikes that I am having difficulty estimating the traction available from the rear tire under adverse conditions. I am just not getting the same feedback as I do with an IC motorcycle, which is why I would appreciate a traction control system.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 12, 2018, 09:17:34 PM
Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle.  ABS yes... but traction control?  You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it.  Learn how to "read the road."  If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle.  It is THAT simple.  If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.

Some of those things include:

Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network

I have a different opinion on traction control.  I have dumped the bike once when traversing a puddle in my driveway under acceleration, it seems the bike has a real tendency to kick the tire out while spinning, more so than any other bike I have had.  I've also had some bad experiences with paint at intersections.  While I agree some of this simply due to overdoing it on my part, there is no reason NOT to include traction control on an electronic speed controlled vehicle (as an option).   Has anyone else noticed the tendency for the wheel to kick out really quickly?

Steve

I certainly have.   :o
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: heroto on January 12, 2018, 10:03:59 PM
Please offer cornering ABS, switchable TC, and electronic cruise control, thank you very much.
And the semi active suspensions on BMWs and Ducatis tranform the bikes. If you haven't ridden one, try it on a rough road. You will be amazed!
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Fred on January 12, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
I'd like a bit more control over how the power is mapped, for those who decide we like it a little less tame. My FXS should be a wheelie monster but it isn't. Ludicrous mode (with disclaimer) is what I want!

With regard to traction control I've only had the bike spin up unexpectedly once. I was bolt upright on a wet road and have it a full handful. All I noticed was an odd ziiiiiiiip noise. As it was upright nothing dramatic happened and it took a second or so for me to realise the back had broken loose. Could it be the lack of an audible signal (i.e. engine revs rising) that makes an electric bike trickier when it loses traction?
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Keith on January 13, 2018, 12:06:18 AM
Yes something like traction control would be nice. My experience with FX off road in very gnarly conditions is that the bike breaks loose and the rear wheel spins up very quickly compared to even an open class two stroke. Off road riding is all about sliding and wheel spinning so a pavement oriented system would probably be just as useful as ABS off road (turn it off!). But some RPM rate of change limiting with regen to control it might be a big improvement. When stuck on rocks and roots it is very hard to get a burst of torque to get started without unleashing insane wheel spin that makes getting traction impossible. The market for off road bikes is not what Zero is targeting so I don't expect to see anything like this. Overall the smooth toque is fantastic off road but it can be too much too soon.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: MorbidBBQ on January 13, 2018, 01:17:35 AM
After years of riding, modding, upgrading, and fixing mine; someone else here hit the jackpot.

A Shop Manual / Service Manual!

It was much easier for me to work on my 250 Ninja, or Fz6 back in the day because I could find wire diagrams, step by step R&R instructions, and parts parts parts!
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: NEW2elec on January 13, 2018, 02:09:13 AM
Burton has you covered.

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7599.0
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: MostlyBonkers on January 13, 2018, 11:15:00 AM
Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle.  ABS yes... but traction control?  You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it.  Learn how to "read the road."  If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle.  It is THAT simple.  If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.

Some of those things include:

Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network

I also have to disagree with you about traction control.  What about unexpected patches of black ice? Diesel on the road?  A rider doesn't have to be gunning it for the rear wheel to break loose. When it does though, the wheel spins up so quickly that things can go bad in the blink of an eye. I'd rather keep a general view of the road surface, rather than trying to look for every almost invisible problem.  I like to look out for hazards like vehicles and pedestrians.

It's also much more dangerous to explore the limits of traction without traction control. It doesn't hurt to let TC kick in occasionally to give yourself a better feel for where that limit is. It means you can adjust your riding to get the most fun out of the bike and still have confidence that you have some grip to spare.  I'd say TC is a useful learning tool as well as something that will save lives.  Not all riders have the skills and experience that you do.  Should they be punished for that? I feel you have the same attitude as those who say ABS is a waste of time. No it isn't.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: ultrarnr on January 13, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
I would like to see a new platform from Zero. With the frame design on the S/SR any increase in battery size is going to be limited to new technology. And these are physically small motorcycles compared to most other bikes out there. I have a 650 V-Strom and KTM 1290 SA and the size difference is pretty obvious. Would love to see Zero make their version of the Brutus V9 cruiser that you can get with a 33.7 kWh battery and DCFC. This is one of the electric motorcycles I would love to ride but BCC is in Nevada and I am on the east coast.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: NEW2elec on January 13, 2018, 08:14:13 PM
The team up of Zero and the old bike company Confederate will be where your cruiser will come from.  I doubt they would have agreed to a team up if they were going to build a cruiser themselves.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: ChainGun on January 14, 2018, 04:29:22 AM
1. Traction Control.
2. Inspired design.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: BrianTRice on January 14, 2018, 05:50:02 AM
I'll chime in with my votes:

Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Richard230 on January 14, 2018, 07:31:41 AM
I think we all forgot about a different and more robust on-board charger.  I could also live with one that had a little more oomph, as I have 20 amp circuit breakers in my home.  ;)
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: MostlyBonkers on January 14, 2018, 12:18:33 PM
I think we all forgot about a different and more robust on-board charger.  I could also live with one that had a little more oomph, as I have 20 amp circuit breakers in my home.  ;)

Well said Richard, top marks from me for mentioning that. I've always felt the onboard charger was weak. Also, to my mind, it is far too big and heavy for what it does.  What we need is a consolidated unit that is capable of level 1 & 2 charging. It seems crazy that people have to buy the charge tank as an option and that it takes up valuable space in the tank area. It also raises the centre of gravity a little.  One unit, in place of the current charger, should provide both.  This is an absolute necessity in my mind if Zero want to sell more bikes.  It should come as standard too, although I accept that these things cost money so it probably would have to be an option with a view to it becoming standard in the future.

You've also reminded me that the 2018 charge tank is now capable of 6kW charging, IIRC. Suddenly I'm very interested, but I don't know if they are supplying it to Europe with a Mennekes socket yet.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: KrazyEd on January 14, 2018, 01:18:53 PM
   As far as the on board charger goes, I agree that a level one / level two hybrid would be a good thing.
I disagree with a more powerful level one charger. Zero replaces tons of onboard chargers
( FOUR so far on MY 2016 SR ). My personal belief is that a major cause of that is too little voltage coming
in to the charger. Rather than giving up, the Zero continues to try to charge and breaks itself.
Something like the Chevrolet Volt has would be perfect. If plugged into the supplied
Level One charger, or a commercial Level One charger, you have the option of 8 amp or 12 amp charging
with 8 being the default. If 12 amps is selected, a warning is displayed about possible consequences. If plugged
into a Level Two charger, it charges at Level two speeds ( Volt is a SLOW Level Two ).
Given advances in technology, I would anticipate Level Two standard charging in the not too distant future
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Hansi on January 14, 2018, 08:09:51 PM
For me I have the same wish as I've had since they removed the DC charging option, faster charging. I'm very happy that they updated the charge tank, but I've  done some calculations and in my opinion it's still not possible to go for longer trips with a Zero. 11kW or faster AC accepting 3-phase Mennekes in Europe would work, DC would be best. That way you could drive for a couple of hours, charge about an hour and drive another 1-1.5 hours. 2 hours charging from ~10% - ~90% is still  too long to wait in my opinion. Because of the relatively slow charging you're still fairly limited to driving about 50% of the range and turn back so you don't run out of battery.

An aerodynamic option/frame would be nice also.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: MostlyBonkers on January 15, 2018, 07:19:05 AM
For me I have the same wish as I've had since they removed the DC charging option, faster charging. I'm very happy that they updated the charge tank, but I've  done some calculations and in my opinion it's still not possible to go for longer trips with a Zero. 11kW or faster AC accepting 3-phase Mennekes in Europe would work, DC would be best. That way you could drive for a couple of hours, charge about an hour and drive another 1-1.5 hours. 2 hours charging from ~10% - ~90% is still  too long to wait in my opinion. Because of the relatively slow charging you're still fairly limited to driving about 50% of the range and turn back so you don't run out of battery.

An aerodynamic option/frame would be nice also.

May I sway your opinion a little Hansi?

I agree with you if you are talking about the kind of touring that includes long stretches of motorway and fast roads.  However, if you prefer taking the shorter and more twisty routes, I've found that it is rather difficult to cover much more than about 35 miles per hour.  I know this because it's the type of riding I do for pleasure on my 2014DS.  It has a range of 65 miles with that kind of riding and I'll regularly get the best part of two hours in the saddle.  I think it's fair to say I could get another 30 miles of range from a 2018 SR, so shall we say two and a half hours of riding? Probably more if taking it easy.

If I ever get chance to go touring, I think a day like this could be rather civilised:

10am  Get on the bike after a nice lie in and a full English.

11:30am  Stop for a cup of tea and a charge if possible.

12:00pm  Continue journey

1pm  Stop for lunch and charge.

2-3pm  Continue journey with a full charge (or at least 90%)

6pm  Reach destination (having stopped for another break since lunch somewhere).

That's about 5-6 hours of riding a day covering about 210 miles or so.  Probably more like 250 miles with a few faster sections thrown in and getting a little more juice during a tea break.

I know it's not like jumping on a GS and covering 350 miles a day, but I think it would be a lot of fun and not too tiring. 
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Hansi on January 16, 2018, 07:08:56 PM
My opinion isn't very easily swayed when it comes to this MostlyBonkers.
While I can agree with you something like the scenario you've pictured is the most common, what about the times every once in a while something important comes up and you're not really willing/able to wait that long for a refill or when you're in a hurry and want to keep moving? That's what it comes down to for me. I very rarely DC charge my Opel Ampera-e (European version of Chevrolet Bolt), but I would never have bought the car without the DC charging option..
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: Doug S on January 16, 2018, 09:18:52 PM
...what about the times every once in a while something important comes up and you're not really willing/able to wait that long for a refill or when you're in a hurry and want to keep moving?

That's why very few of us have our electric motorcycles as our only vehicle (though there are a few). I think, at least here in my area (southern California) the same is true for motorcycle owners in general. Every once in a while (even here) the weather isn't very motorcycle friendly, or you need to carry something fairly large, or you need to carry more than one passenger.

Just for fun one day (and to join the 250-miles-in-one-day club), I did do a 260-some mile trip a few months ago on my 2014 Zero SR. It was a wonderful day's ride and I look forward to doing it again next riding season, probably more than once. I actually kind of like the fact that it makes you get off periodically for a while to recharge. There's none of this "I can make it to the next gas station" macho attitude that just winds up making you sore and miserable. It enforces a nice relaxed pace that I find very enjoyable.
Title: Re: What do we want for 2019?
Post by: KrazyEd on January 17, 2018, 02:20:15 AM
I did the 250 plus a couple times. An adventure each time. I am planning to go to ReFuel in Monterey in June.
Debating on towing SR or riding it. Still a Challenge to get from Primm ( state line ) to Victorville. Once there,
charge time is the only issue. Before Victorville, charge time is a MAJOR issue. I have  QuiQ and Elcon external
chargers but no Y cable so can charge at about 4KW per hour max. Don't have the money to spring for SuperCharger
and too cheap to spring for the Y cable. Neither of those options would really help between Primm and Victorville.
From what I hear, RV parks are becoming more EV friendly these days so that would help with that section.
We'll see