ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on January 11, 2018, 09:31:46 PM
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I figure that with Zero it is never too early to start moaning about what we would like to see in the way of their future models. (Although my guess is that they likely already have the 2019 models pretty much worked out by now.) Anyway, I'll start my modest list:
1. I am still looking for a softer seat.
2. I would like to see a larger chassis that would offer more battery storage room, more room for passenger comfort and mounting luggage.
3. A change in the styling and a return to shiny paint.
4. A more streamlined front end, or at least a model with a 1/4 or 1/2 fairing, such is offered by most Japanese manufacturers.
5. It is probably time for Zero to introduce a cruiser design as that market appears to be pretty much wide open.
6. Real firmware updates via smart phone, as is currently advertised in their product description, but not currently available.
7. A longer tire hugger that would do a better job of keeping gorp off of the shock assembly and the controller.
8. Factory installation of the "rain guard", or something similar, to keep road gorp from being flung on to passengers.
9. Improved factory spare parts stocking and more rapid shipping after receiving customer or shop repair orders from their retail dealers.
10. Finally (for the moment) I think it about time for a new TFT color instrument display, which is rapidly becoming the standard in the motorcycle industry.
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Looking to jump into an electric bike this spring and at first glance I thought Zero was the ticket but because Zero hasn’t addresses some of these wish list items already I’m a little reluctant. I can see from this forum most of these wish list items have been desired for years with no change. Is my take on this correct or am I being unfair to a relatively young company? 🧐
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What people will and won't buy is highly personal and no doubt the subject of intense research by the manufacturers.
With the longer range and new charge tank in the 2018 SR, Zero finally makes a moto I'm willing to buy, despite the crazy high price. For others, the threshold is different.
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Read this. We need more riders not more features. http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Home/News-Story/advocating-for-motorcyclings-future
Scott Harden...is well known as a brand builder, team manager, sales professional and product planner with such companies as Husqvarna, KTM, BMW and Zero Motorcycles.
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Ha ha. I thought about posting a thread for this the day after the 2018s were announced, but I showed a little restraint 8)
My primary list is short:
1. Ability to program three rider modes instead of just custom.
2. Progressive regen.
Another thing I'd like to see in the future:
3. Poor man's traction control - a defeatable option that limits spinup of the back wheel
Then there's the obvious:
4. More range
5. Lower cost
And the hopeful:
6. Firmware updates that don't break the bikes
7. A change log for firmware updates
8. Better dealer network and responsiveness to issues
9. Less performance surprises, e.g. current limiting in cold weather
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Right. Keep them practical and affordable. A lot of the things people have on their wish lists would blast the MSRP up into "Lightning" or "Energica" levels.
It would be nice if Zero developed some accessories that we could add at extra cost, but I'd leave the base bike alone and just work on refinements. The 2018 Charge Tank is a HUGE improvement in my eyes. Hollywood Electrics is working on a frame-mounted sport touring fairing that should be available "Real Soon Now."
Corbin makes replacement saddles, and there are several custom saddle makers out there that would be more than happy to take your stock seat pan and build your ideal saddle.
Just keep evolving the battery and motor technology. Everything else will fall into place on its own.
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I think Zero is doing the best that they can, considering their financial resources and the state of the electric motorcycle market, which is pretty limp compared with trying to sell any other electric vehicle, thanks to the very conservative nature of most motorcycle buyers. But that doesn't mean we can't dream about the future and give Zero some hints regarding what their customers would like to see them introduce some day should they get another big infusion of cash. ;)
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Since it was asked again, I will answer again; Cruise Control
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Cruise control is my favorite, too.
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I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition. More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two. Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
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From what I read, I would think reliability would be the top item. I have heard reasons people do not buy a zero is due to reliability issues. Based on the numbers in the spec sheet the bikes look good. They don't want a project bike.
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I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition. More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two. Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
Isnt your 2018 S technically as powerful as an SR, with the same 600AMP motor?
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Nothing that will add any weight or complexity to the bike, only a retrofittable sport-touring fairing.
Preferably one made as truly aerodynamic as possible, instead of resembling the latest origami stealth-bomber graphics.
(http://stat.overdrive.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Kawasaki-ZX10R-vs-Austa-MV-F4-37.jpg)
And I must respectfully disagree with cruise control, as these are not really interstate bikes.
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I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition. More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two. Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
Same experience on my 2017 SR.
Even lowsided it once. :( ... still have the footage from my helmcam ;)
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Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle. ABS yes... but traction control? You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it. Learn how to "read the road." If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle. It is THAT simple. If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.
Some of those things include:
Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
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I know that it was mentioned above, but traction control (like the BMW C-Evolution has) would be a very nice addition. More than once, I have had my rear wheel spin on damp pavement, or when riding over a painted line or manhole, and cause the rear wheel to step out and the entire bike shake violently for a second or two. Kind of scary and I don't even have an SR, which really must suffer this issue.
Isnt your 2018 S technically as powerful as an SR, with the same 600AMP motor?
My S apparently uses an updated Sevcon controller that will put out 550 amps for a few seconds. I think I read somewhere that it is good for 200 amps, continuous. I believe that the SR uses a more powerful controller that will produce more power from the motor, at least for a while until things start getting too hot. (I don't know how much difference the different motor magnets used in the S and SR motors make during power production in the long run, but I am sure that the SR can likely generate more power than an S for a longer period of time.) ???
In any case, it doesn't feel any faster than did my 2014 S, with its 400 amp controller. However, it would be interesting if someone would test the stock Zeros at a drag strip to see how much difference there is between an S and an SR. I can tell you that both my 2014 and 2018 models feel really heavy with their power tanks in place of the stock stuff box. I believe that the 2018 S weighs 452 pounds, about 10 more than the 2014 S (likely due to the better suspension components and the ABS system). In any case, there is quite a variation in weight between the various Zero models based upon the batteries installed and that would likely have a considerable impact on acceleration (and handling), but probably not top speed. ???
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Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle. ABS yes... but traction control? You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it. Learn how to "read the road." If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle. It is THAT simple. If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.
Some of those things include:
Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
I have a different opinion on traction control. I have dumped the bike once when traversing a puddle in my driveway under acceleration, it seems the bike has a real tendency to kick the tire out while spinning, more so than any other bike I have had. I've also had some bad experiences with paint at intersections. While I agree some of this simply due to overdoing it on my part, there is no reason NOT to include traction control on an electronic speed controlled vehicle (as an option). Has anyone else noticed the tendency for the wheel to kick out really quickly? Anything that helps keep me off the pavement is "useful" in my book!
Steve
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Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle. ABS yes... but traction control? You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it. Learn how to "read the road." If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle. It is THAT simple. If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.
Some of those things include:
Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
That is about the same for me. I have ridden IC motorcycles for about 800,000 miles and never spun a rear wheel. However, I have found that the Zero produces power so much differently than my IC bikes that I am having difficulty estimating the traction available from the rear tire under adverse conditions. I am just not getting the same feedback as I do with an IC motorcycle, which is why I would appreciate a traction control system.
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Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle. ABS yes... but traction control? You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it. Learn how to "read the road." If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle. It is THAT simple. If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.
Some of those things include:
Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
I have a different opinion on traction control. I have dumped the bike once when traversing a puddle in my driveway under acceleration, it seems the bike has a real tendency to kick the tire out while spinning, more so than any other bike I have had. I've also had some bad experiences with paint at intersections. While I agree some of this simply due to overdoing it on my part, there is no reason NOT to include traction control on an electronic speed controlled vehicle (as an option). Has anyone else noticed the tendency for the wheel to kick out really quickly?
Steve
I certainly have. :o
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Please offer cornering ABS, switchable TC, and electronic cruise control, thank you very much.
And the semi active suspensions on BMWs and Ducatis tranform the bikes. If you haven't ridden one, try it on a rough road. You will be amazed!
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I'd like a bit more control over how the power is mapped, for those who decide we like it a little less tame. My FXS should be a wheelie monster but it isn't. Ludicrous mode (with disclaimer) is what I want!
With regard to traction control I've only had the bike spin up unexpectedly once. I was bolt upright on a wet road and have it a full handful. All I noticed was an odd ziiiiiiiip noise. As it was upright nothing dramatic happened and it took a second or so for me to realise the back had broken loose. Could it be the lack of an audible signal (i.e. engine revs rising) that makes an electric bike trickier when it loses traction?
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Yes something like traction control would be nice. My experience with FX off road in very gnarly conditions is that the bike breaks loose and the rear wheel spins up very quickly compared to even an open class two stroke. Off road riding is all about sliding and wheel spinning so a pavement oriented system would probably be just as useful as ABS off road (turn it off!). But some RPM rate of change limiting with regen to control it might be a big improvement. When stuck on rocks and roots it is very hard to get a burst of torque to get started without unleashing insane wheel spin that makes getting traction impossible. The market for off road bikes is not what Zero is targeting so I don't expect to see anything like this. Overall the smooth toque is fantastic off road but it can be too much too soon.
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After years of riding, modding, upgrading, and fixing mine; someone else here hit the jackpot.
A Shop Manual / Service Manual!
It was much easier for me to work on my 250 Ninja, or Fz6 back in the day because I could find wire diagrams, step by step R&R instructions, and parts parts parts!
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Burton has you covered.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7599.0
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Having nearly a million miles under my belt I have never ever seen the need for traction control on a street motorcycle. ABS yes... but traction control? You have all the traction control you need in your right wrist if you know how to use it. Learn how to "read the road." If anything looks shiny or wet up ahead then back off the throttle. It is THAT simple. If Zero is going to add any technology to their bikes, I'd rather it be something USEFUL.
Some of those things include:
Vectrix-like regen (proportional to roll-off).
Aerodynamics (to reduce wind resistance)
Faster charge times
Brighter colors (like the good old days)
A shop manual!!!!
Better dealer network
I also have to disagree with you about traction control. What about unexpected patches of black ice? Diesel on the road? A rider doesn't have to be gunning it for the rear wheel to break loose. When it does though, the wheel spins up so quickly that things can go bad in the blink of an eye. I'd rather keep a general view of the road surface, rather than trying to look for every almost invisible problem. I like to look out for hazards like vehicles and pedestrians.
It's also much more dangerous to explore the limits of traction without traction control. It doesn't hurt to let TC kick in occasionally to give yourself a better feel for where that limit is. It means you can adjust your riding to get the most fun out of the bike and still have confidence that you have some grip to spare. I'd say TC is a useful learning tool as well as something that will save lives. Not all riders have the skills and experience that you do. Should they be punished for that? I feel you have the same attitude as those who say ABS is a waste of time. No it isn't.
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I would like to see a new platform from Zero. With the frame design on the S/SR any increase in battery size is going to be limited to new technology. And these are physically small motorcycles compared to most other bikes out there. I have a 650 V-Strom and KTM 1290 SA and the size difference is pretty obvious. Would love to see Zero make their version of the Brutus V9 cruiser that you can get with a 33.7 kWh battery and DCFC. This is one of the electric motorcycles I would love to ride but BCC is in Nevada and I am on the east coast.
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The team up of Zero and the old bike company Confederate will be where your cruiser will come from. I doubt they would have agreed to a team up if they were going to build a cruiser themselves.
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1. Traction Control.
2. Inspired design.
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I'll chime in with my votes:
- Updated frame, robust for carrying more cargo and mounting fairings (even if Zero leaves this to the aftermarket). That tail assembly should support a lot more mass as shipped, and the top plate hardware should be integrated into the tail assembly to reduce metal fatigue.
- Traction control; mainly for wet conditions, but in general any safe measure should be shipped, even a stopgap. I've had the wheel spin up when I didn't want it to.
- A 6-brick-equivalent option supported by the OEM in some form for travel enthusiasts.
- For others: take the longbrick S/DS bikes and relocate the underseat cabling and circuit boards into the new storage area. Customize this model to accommodate shorter riders, and as a bonus it provides additional protection for the core equipment.
- A more robust use of CANBus signaling. I think the bike could be much more fault-tolerant and debuggable without a ton of investment.
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I think we all forgot about a different and more robust on-board charger. I could also live with one that had a little more oomph, as I have 20 amp circuit breakers in my home. ;)
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I think we all forgot about a different and more robust on-board charger. I could also live with one that had a little more oomph, as I have 20 amp circuit breakers in my home. ;)
Well said Richard, top marks from me for mentioning that. I've always felt the onboard charger was weak. Also, to my mind, it is far too big and heavy for what it does. What we need is a consolidated unit that is capable of level 1 & 2 charging. It seems crazy that people have to buy the charge tank as an option and that it takes up valuable space in the tank area. It also raises the centre of gravity a little. One unit, in place of the current charger, should provide both. This is an absolute necessity in my mind if Zero want to sell more bikes. It should come as standard too, although I accept that these things cost money so it probably would have to be an option with a view to it becoming standard in the future.
You've also reminded me that the 2018 charge tank is now capable of 6kW charging, IIRC. Suddenly I'm very interested, but I don't know if they are supplying it to Europe with a Mennekes socket yet.
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As far as the on board charger goes, I agree that a level one / level two hybrid would be a good thing.
I disagree with a more powerful level one charger. Zero replaces tons of onboard chargers
( FOUR so far on MY 2016 SR ). My personal belief is that a major cause of that is too little voltage coming
in to the charger. Rather than giving up, the Zero continues to try to charge and breaks itself.
Something like the Chevrolet Volt has would be perfect. If plugged into the supplied
Level One charger, or a commercial Level One charger, you have the option of 8 amp or 12 amp charging
with 8 being the default. If 12 amps is selected, a warning is displayed about possible consequences. If plugged
into a Level Two charger, it charges at Level two speeds ( Volt is a SLOW Level Two ).
Given advances in technology, I would anticipate Level Two standard charging in the not too distant future
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For me I have the same wish as I've had since they removed the DC charging option, faster charging. I'm very happy that they updated the charge tank, but I've done some calculations and in my opinion it's still not possible to go for longer trips with a Zero. 11kW or faster AC accepting 3-phase Mennekes in Europe would work, DC would be best. That way you could drive for a couple of hours, charge about an hour and drive another 1-1.5 hours. 2 hours charging from ~10% - ~90% is still too long to wait in my opinion. Because of the relatively slow charging you're still fairly limited to driving about 50% of the range and turn back so you don't run out of battery.
An aerodynamic option/frame would be nice also.
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For me I have the same wish as I've had since they removed the DC charging option, faster charging. I'm very happy that they updated the charge tank, but I've done some calculations and in my opinion it's still not possible to go for longer trips with a Zero. 11kW or faster AC accepting 3-phase Mennekes in Europe would work, DC would be best. That way you could drive for a couple of hours, charge about an hour and drive another 1-1.5 hours. 2 hours charging from ~10% - ~90% is still too long to wait in my opinion. Because of the relatively slow charging you're still fairly limited to driving about 50% of the range and turn back so you don't run out of battery.
An aerodynamic option/frame would be nice also.
May I sway your opinion a little Hansi?
I agree with you if you are talking about the kind of touring that includes long stretches of motorway and fast roads. However, if you prefer taking the shorter and more twisty routes, I've found that it is rather difficult to cover much more than about 35 miles per hour. I know this because it's the type of riding I do for pleasure on my 2014DS. It has a range of 65 miles with that kind of riding and I'll regularly get the best part of two hours in the saddle. I think it's fair to say I could get another 30 miles of range from a 2018 SR, so shall we say two and a half hours of riding? Probably more if taking it easy.
If I ever get chance to go touring, I think a day like this could be rather civilised:
10am Get on the bike after a nice lie in and a full English.
11:30am Stop for a cup of tea and a charge if possible.
12:00pm Continue journey
1pm Stop for lunch and charge.
2-3pm Continue journey with a full charge (or at least 90%)
6pm Reach destination (having stopped for another break since lunch somewhere).
That's about 5-6 hours of riding a day covering about 210 miles or so. Probably more like 250 miles with a few faster sections thrown in and getting a little more juice during a tea break.
I know it's not like jumping on a GS and covering 350 miles a day, but I think it would be a lot of fun and not too tiring.
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My opinion isn't very easily swayed when it comes to this MostlyBonkers.
While I can agree with you something like the scenario you've pictured is the most common, what about the times every once in a while something important comes up and you're not really willing/able to wait that long for a refill or when you're in a hurry and want to keep moving? That's what it comes down to for me. I very rarely DC charge my Opel Ampera-e (European version of Chevrolet Bolt), but I would never have bought the car without the DC charging option..
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...what about the times every once in a while something important comes up and you're not really willing/able to wait that long for a refill or when you're in a hurry and want to keep moving?
That's why very few of us have our electric motorcycles as our only vehicle (though there are a few). I think, at least here in my area (southern California) the same is true for motorcycle owners in general. Every once in a while (even here) the weather isn't very motorcycle friendly, or you need to carry something fairly large, or you need to carry more than one passenger.
Just for fun one day (and to join the 250-miles-in-one-day club), I did do a 260-some mile trip a few months ago on my 2014 Zero SR. It was a wonderful day's ride and I look forward to doing it again next riding season, probably more than once. I actually kind of like the fact that it makes you get off periodically for a while to recharge. There's none of this "I can make it to the next gas station" macho attitude that just winds up making you sore and miserable. It enforces a nice relaxed pace that I find very enjoyable.
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I did the 250 plus a couple times. An adventure each time. I am planning to go to ReFuel in Monterey in June.
Debating on towing SR or riding it. Still a Challenge to get from Primm ( state line ) to Victorville. Once there,
charge time is the only issue. Before Victorville, charge time is a MAJOR issue. I have QuiQ and Elcon external
chargers but no Y cable so can charge at about 4KW per hour max. Don't have the money to spring for SuperCharger
and too cheap to spring for the Y cable. Neither of those options would really help between Primm and Victorville.
From what I hear, RV parks are becoming more EV friendly these days so that would help with that section.
We'll see
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- Enable 1C charging for people that have the Power tank!
1C for ZF13 is 13kW charging power
1C for ZF13 + ZF3.3 is 16.3kW charging power!
Actually BMS limit to 1C for the monolith ( ZF13 on the 2016-2017) without taking account of the presence of the power tank or not.
- Time for new fairings ! The actual Zero fairing platform is already 5 years old!
Chineese electric motorcycles look better than the Zero today... maybe a time for a change?
https://youtu.be/WoTo6YdDzvk?list=PLIKut_pH6iugnnWiuEfP1EDtXfrQ8edQn (https://youtu.be/WoTo6YdDzvk?list=PLIKut_pH6iugnnWiuEfP1EDtXfrQ8edQn)
All the following are 3000$ only....
(https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1miSCSVXXXXbyXVXX760XFXXX3/Hanbird-3000w-Adult-Electrical-Motorcycle-with-Led.png_350x350.png)
(https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1s_y_QFXXXXaXaXXX760XFXXX8/229960000/HTB1s_y_QFXXXXaXaXXX760XFXXX8.png)
(http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1C4MLhdzJ8KJjSspk762F7VXaM/adult-racing-electric-motorcycle-with-big-wheel.png)
Doc
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- Enable 1C charging for people that have the Power tank!
1C for ZF13 is 13kW charging power
1C for ZF13 + ZF3.3 is 16.3kW charging power!
Actually BMS limit to 1C for the monolith ( ZF13 on the 2016-2017) without taking account of the presence of the power tank or not.
Is the new Charge Tank just software restricted to 6kW, or is it hardware restricted?
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-- Optional sport-touring fairing that would improve 70mph range by 25%-30%
-- A standard 3kW onboard AC charger
-- A (likely optional) factory onboard fast charger (either CCS 20kW like Energica, or something like DoctorBass' belly pan solution (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7421.0) for adding 10kW AC charging for a total of 13kW)
(neither of the above two taking any space in the "tank", rear luggage etc.)
Small stuff:
-- Real, standard, parking brake. This should be legally required given no transmission, and it's ridiculous Zero wants $600 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=243) for it when the required HW should cost <$10.
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Is the new Charge Tank just software restricted to 6kW, or is it hardware restricted?
It is not "restricted" - that's the level it can operate at without overheating.
The bike's limits are imposed by a combination of software (reading sensor outputs) and hardware (contactor operation and some critical fuses).
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Power....
I agree with the "ludicrous mode" type thing. I had a smaller back sprocket put on my '16 DSR and always ride in Custom mode (max speed, torque, nil throttle regen, max brake regen) and I am always kinda left wanting. It's a quick bike, but I wouldn't mind it winding out a little quicker off the line, then again above 50. I want it to have a mode where it has the ability to put the front wheel up - not that I want to do that, but I will control the bike, jsut give me the power!
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It just occurred to me that what I want from Zero is no changes next year. :o Any improvements would reduce the resale value of my 2018 model. ;)
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It just occurred to me that what I want from Zero is no changes next year. :o Any improvements would reduce the resale value of my 2018 model. ;)
:P
But... If they make changes that make the bikes significantly more attractive, there'll be much more demand, which according to the law of supply/demand will cause prices (of both new & used bikes) to go up; I'm sure that Zero isn't yet set up for a massive increase in production.
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I wonder why they haven't upgraded their lighting to full LED yet. I'm a simple man... and it annoys me that an electric bike is *burning* filament to generate light. :p
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I wonder why they haven't upgraded their lighting to full LED yet. I'm a simple man... and it annoys me that an electric bike is *burning* filament to generate light. :p
To keep the cost down. If you're dead set on LED you can always change the bulb yourself.
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1) Service manual (here's the Alta manual (https://www.altamotors.co/ownersmanual) for reference)
2) 4.0 FX brick
3) 'Port out' the MBB and/or controller to allow 3rd-party development (with Zero's permission, of course)
of features like throttle maps, traction control, reverse, powerband simulation, etc., with the eventual
goal of offering dealer-installed upgrades covered by warranty.
Ray
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I did the 250 plus a couple times. An adventure each time. I am planning to go to ReFuel in Monterey in June.
Debating on towing SR or riding it. Still a Challenge to get from Primm ( state line ) to Victorville. Once there,
charge time is the only issue. Before Victorville, charge time is a MAJOR issue. I have QuiQ and Elcon external
chargers but no Y cable so can charge at about 4KW per hour max. Don't have the money to spring for SuperCharger
and too cheap to spring for the Y cable. Neither of those options would really help between Primm and Victorville.
From what I hear, RV parks are becoming more EV friendly these days so that would help with that section.
We'll see
For others' info:
Refuel at Laguna Seca is
June 29, 2018 - 9:00am - July 1, 2018 - 6:30pm
according to
http://www.mazdaraceway.com/track-rental/refuel-speed-ventures
I'll try to head there too. Last year there were at least 3 people from SF and at least a couple dozen from zero factory/scotts valley/santa cruz area.
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I second this optional “ludicrous mode.â€
Just got an SR and don’t like that initial lag when taking off. Maybe because I was used to an fz09 where you had to always back off the throttle to keep the front wheel down.
Other minor things would be keyless start and outdoor temp gauge
q
[/quote]
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1) Service manual (here's the Alta manual (https://www.altamotors.co/ownersmanual) for reference)
2) 4.0 FX brick
3) 'Port out' the MBB and/or controller to allow 3rd-party development (with Zero's permission, of course)
of features like throttle maps, traction control, reverse, powerband simulation, etc., with the eventual
goal of offering dealer-installed upgrades covered by warranty.
Ray
For the "Port out", yesterday i came across this site that claims to have this new diagnostics cable
http://shop.ecmcables.com/tuning-cables/Zero-Electric-Motorcycle-Tuning-OBDII-to-USB-Cables/Diagnostics-USB-Cable-for-ZERO-Motorcycles (http://shop.ecmcables.com/tuning-cables/Zero-Electric-Motorcycle-Tuning-OBDII-to-USB-Cables/Diagnostics-USB-Cable-for-ZERO-Motorcycles)
I have a bit of a starting problem and I was wondering if any one tried this out yet?
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As it stands I dont think we will ever see anything we really want from zero as a manufacturer, so I believe we should just go ahead and make it ourselves, my next big project for my bike will be a cruiser style fairing, haven't decided on materials or mounting yet however.
In a few years, I will also replace the batteries in the stack with graphene lithium.
I'm still searching for a cost effective way to add more batteries until then.
Ultimately I'd love to just rip the bike apart and redesign it into something between the bike from akira and a monotracer.
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You can make your own cable https://zeromanual.com/index.php/How_to_build_a_cable_to_access_the_MBB The OBD connector also has CANbus, that cable is a serial port connection. It won't tell you much that you can't see in log files https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Official_Mobile_Application
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A move to 200V+ battery pack so that we can utilise CCS DC fast charging (and allows for more performance within the existing cable current constraints).
Energica built CCS fast charging into their bike from day one. If they and every EV manufacturer can do 200V+ safely, then so can Zero.
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I'd like a better dealer network as i really would like to buy a zero but when i see all the problems some of you have, i NEED a dealer in my city, not 250km far away.
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What do I REALLY want for 2019?
A proper, professional Software QA team at Zero. Actually, I'd like that to happen sooner than 2019.
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A move to 200V+ battery pack so that we can utilise CCS DC fast charging (and allows for more performance within the existing cable current constraints).
Energica built CCS fast charging into their bike from day one. If they and every EV manufacturer can do 200V+ safely, then so can Zero.
It's not just about safety, it's also about efficiency. At 116VDC you can use OptiMOS power transistors, but at 200+V you need less-efficient IGBTs. I mean, with the obvious circuits. (A clever engineer might do better, but vehicular folks generall do integration (save time? money? maybe not in the long run) by going with a controller with from a third party rather that building one in-house.)
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What's all this talk about wanting traction control. No thanks, don't need that.
But I would like to have more control over the BMS when it comes to reducing performance (speed/torque) in order to maximize SOC. Why not let the rider decide when they want to ride more conservatively in order to save battery power? The current algorithm that manages that is way too conservative and kicks in way too soon. Get rid of it and let me decide.
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...I would like to have more control over the BMS when it comes to reducing performance (speed/torque) in order to maximize SOC. Why not let the rider decide when they want to ride more conservatively in order to save battery power? The current algorithm that manages that is way too conservative and kicks in way too soon. Get rid of it and let me decide.
It's not entirely (or even mostly) to maximize range. The cells have a maximum safe discharge rate, and that rate varies quite a bit as a function of SoC. Discharging faster than that can easily and quickly damage the battery, so the ramp-down of discharge rate enforced by the BMS settings is probably intended to ensure good battery lifetime more than to increase range.
What year is your bike? My 2014 SR originally had a fairly aggressive ramp-down. It was clear that it cut in by no lower than 60% SoC, and by 40% the bike was considerably slower to accelerate. But since my battery pack was rebuilt to 2016 specs, the ramp-down is quite a bit less severe. I'm pretty sure that in recent years, the battery cell manufacturer has up'ed the spec as far as allowable discharge rate is concerned, especially at reduced SoC.
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Doug, thanks so much for the explanation. I thought is was all about trying to maximize range. I have 2017 DSR. I'm going to took a look at the logs to see if I can pinpoint what percent SOC the reduction starts to take effect.
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Since it was asked again, I will answer again; Cruise Control
AKA Custom mode.
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Since it was asked again, I will answer again; Cruise Control
AKA Custom mode.
Not even close.
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Ha ha. I thought about posting a thread for this the day after the 2018s were announced, but I showed a little restraint 8)
My primary list is short:
1. Ability to program three rider modes instead of just custom.
2. Progressive regen.
Another thing I'd like to see in the future:
3. Poor man's traction control - a defeatable option that limits spinup of the back wheel
Then there's the obvious:
4. More range
5. Lower cost
And the hopeful:
6. Firmware updates that don't break the bikes
7. A change log for firmware updates
8. Better dealer network and responsiveness to issues
9. Less performance surprises, e.g. current limiting in cold weather
I fully support this. Only i would put #3 first.
The one time i forgot that i was riding on wet surface i lost traction trying to pass a slow car. I know it was stupid move, but not having less than 10 lines of code that could have saved my shoulder from 6 months of recovery seems equally stupid. (My shoulder is mostly fine, but i still cannot reach behind my back properly which makes stuff like wearing a jacket or a backpack cumbersome).
Now of course traction control should be an option just as setting custom regen. What I don't understand is why anyone would argue against such a safety feature as long as it can be switched off.
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My 2017 DSR already has traction control.........it's called Eco mode. Seriously, the power reduction in Eco mode on my DSR is so significant that I doubt I could spin the rear wheel on anything but maybe a solid sheet of ice. The Eco mode on my FXS wasn't as pronounced.
Is this everyone's experience that owns a DSR? How about those who have other models?
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My 2017 DSR already has traction control.........it's called Eco mode. Seriously, the power reduction in Eco mode on my DSR is so significant that I doubt I could spin the rear wheel on anything but maybe a solid sheet of ice. The Eco mode on my FXS wasn't as pronounced.
Is this everyone's experience that owns a DSR? How about those who have other models?
I agree that eco mode can work to prevent wheel spin, but I don't want to ride around on a neutered bike. That takes away power and top speed when I want/need it and would defeat the purpose of owning an R bike. Putting it in eco is mostly acceptable if it's raining or the road conditions are otherwise poor for an extended period of time, but it's not ideal to flip between eco and custom frequently during the ride. I fully accept that most of the issues can be prevented with experience and good throttle control. It's probably a little more than 10 lines of code, but I still believe that it should be pretty easy and inexpensive to implement.
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What do I want for 2019? I think Zero should NOT concentrate on new models or features. I think they should put ALL of their resources into establishing a "Technical Excellence" center in every State or Country where their bikes are sold. I think every dealership that sells Zeros should be able to send at least one technician to these centers where they can be fully trained on every aspect of these bikes.
Zero should also publish an actual SERVICE MANUAL that the technicians can reference when there are issues. Making the dealerships call the factory everytime there is any kind of an issue is BULLSHIT. Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT. Could you imagine if you had to do that with your Chevy or Toyota???
Later: Having a "Technical Excellence Center" in every State is not really feasible, but they SHOULD have multiple centers around the country nevertheless.
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What do I want for 2019? I think Zero should NOT concentrate on new models or features. I think they should put ALL of their resources into establishing a "Technical Excellence" center in every State or Country where their bikes are sold. I think every dealership that sells Zeros should be able to send at least one technician to these centers where they can be fully trained on every aspect of these bikes.
Zero should also publish an actual SERVICE MANUAL that the technicians can reference when there are issues. Making the dealerships call the factory everytime there is any kind of an issue is BULLSHIT. Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT. Could you imagine if you had to do that with your Chevy or Toyota???
+1, with the exception of adding traction control. It's only a matter of time before someone sues Zero for not providing it as standard, at least in the R models.
In the absence of any real competition, I'm now of a mind that they should concentrate on reducing the price. They are selling a very standard mid range motorcycle at a premium price. A Zero S needs to be £6k on the road here in the UK. Then they'll start selling to commuters, which is the market the product is designed for. At the moment, I think the price is roughly double that. Maybe a little less after the subsidy. The cheap running costs need to be an extra incentive to make the switch to electric.
I keep thinking about what to do next. There's no point in staying with Zero unless I get an R model. I might as well stick with my 2014DS even though it's only got another 9 months warranty. However, a new SR is around £15k. I could buy a Yamaha MT10 SP for that money and still have enough left over to run it for a year. Or go for the standard MT10 and be able to run it for 3 years; petrol, servicing and road tax included...
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Here is a suggestion for pseudo code for a poor mans traction control
(yes it will probably be more than 10 lines in the end, but the idea can be conveyed as this)
Assuming that the current variables are available current_velocity, requested_torque (or current- it will be the same)
Also available from this routine will be previous_velocity, erroneous_torque and torque (torque will be the output)
Interrupt routine - assuming this runs 100 times per second as an example :
1 if( current_velocity - previous_velocity > max_allowable_velocity_change) { // if we have too much change in speed, set torque limiter
2 torque_limit = 100;
3 erroneous_torque = torque;
4 }else previous_velocity = current_velocity; // otherwise, update the velocity memory
5 if ( requested_torque < erroneous_torque*(100-torque_limit)/100 ) torque_limit = 0; // reset limit if we have moved throttle into safe area
6 torque = (requested_torque*(100-torque_limit))/100); // set torque according to limits
7 if (torque_limit > 0) torque_limit--; // count down torque limit within 1 second or so...
8 previous_requested_torque = requested torque; // set torque memory
Now one can debate on using a line or two to speed up the routine by doing less math and operating with min( requested_torque, erroneous_torque*(100-torque_limit)/100) but generally i believe this code should give you a second to reduce throttle when the wheel starts spinning, when properly reduced, you should be able to start using throttle again, as the torque limit is reset. The timing, countdown etc can of course all be tuned to fit real world reaction times.
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> ... Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT. ...
I was told Energica has been having to do that for their German customers...
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Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand. The demand is luke warm at the moment because the technology is still relatively new and the prices are too high for the average motorcycle buyer. I would expect to pay a little more than a gas bike but not as much as a brand new car or nice used car.
I've been lurking these forums, YT videos, and the Zero website for years. Every year I check back in to see what changes they've made. The prices are the main thing holding me back.
As MostlyBonkers stated above "I'm now of a mind that they should concentrate on reducing the price. They are selling a very standard mid range motorcycle at a premium price." I completely agree. For the price you're paying for these motorcycles you should never have to wait a month for the company to respond to your issues, as JaimeC has experienced.
The longevity of these bikes is also a concern to me. The warranty doesn't seem to cover everything. I've also read plenty of issues people have had within the first 2 years of owning one. I'd be curious to know factual stats as to how many people have a problem with their bike within the first 2 years (actual problems, not something like needing new tires because they're worn out). I really want to own a Zero but I feel like they need a few more years to work out some kinks and improve everything.
There's no way I'm going to drop $11-$16k on a brand new bike to have something like this happen on day 1...if this had happened to me, I would've returned it the same day for a full refund and never looked at the company again. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence but that's just crazy. Makes you wonder how it passed quality control on the way out of the factory... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc-Qek-0y9s
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RE: the video.
I have seen that exact thing happen after you interface with the bike via DVT ... typically you have to power cycle the bike and then it clears up.
Would be interesting to see that guys logs.
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Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand.
Zero would take a loss on every bike they sold and go out of business. If Zero sold their bikes for $5000 each, sales would increase even more. I am by no means a Zero Apologist ® :D but I think we need to be realistic at this point. Buying a Zero was a splurge for me and I'd love to see the price come down, but I believe they are selling at a fair price.
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For DECADES all the traction control anyone needed was in their right wrist. If you can't control yourself, maybe you should look at another form of transportation (unless, of course, you are competing on a race track; then traction control might be the difference between finishing the race, or high-siding). On the street? Not so much.
I'd much rather see Zero spend their money on building up their support and service system. My bike has been in the shop for over a month now. It took over a month for Zero Tech Support to FINALLY remote into the shop's system and diagnose the issue. That was a week ago. We STILL don't have a tracking number or shipping estimate for the replacement motor.
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I'd much rather see Zero spend their money on...
That's really the key phrase, isn't it? I'd agree investing in their support network should be a very high priority, but even before that, I'd say they need to FIX THEIR FIRMWARE! Their neck of the woods is very rich in people who would eat this sort of thing up, they need to get over the high cost of a good firmware engineer, hire one and do the job right.
THEN I'd prioritize improving their support network. A lot of people have had problems in this area, but every single one of their riders would benefit from improved firmware.
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Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand.
Zero would take a loss on every bike they sold and go out of business. If Zero sold their bikes for $5000 each, sales would increase even more. I am by no means a Zero Apologist ® :D but I think we need to be realistic at this point. Buying a Zero was a splurge for me and I'd love to see the price come down, but I believe they are selling at a fair price.
They wouldn't go out of business. How much do you think their profit margin is? In other words, how much do you think it costs in actual parts and labor to build 1 motorcycle versus what they sell it for and make a profit on? Examples: If it costs them 9k to make one and they sell it for 14k, they're making 5k per motorcycle. If it costs them 5k to make a bike and they're selling it for 14k, they're making 9k per bike. I'm guessing it costs 4-7k to build 1 motorcycle depending on specs. They could easily drop the price and still make a profit, it just wouldn't be as big of a profit as before.
Perhaps an alternative could be to run limited time discounts every year. Example: anyone who orders a Zero between February 1st and April 1st gets $3k off the normal price. After April 1st, price goes back up to normal. Give the customer some incentive to think "It's that time of the year for the discount, I better jump on it while it's here."
For me personally, 10k is the MAX I've always had set in stone for a motorcycle. If I really dig deep, want to burn a hole in my pocket, and the circumstances are perfect, I might go up to about 12k max, that's it. Unfortunate for me since I'm eyeing up either the DS ZF13.0 with quick charger & without power tank OR the S ZF13.0 with the same options. They're both showing as around $14,595 per the Zero site. Add on taxes and fees and it's more like $16,500-$17,000 which is about 4-6k over my budget. For wealthy people price is never an issue. For the rest of us average folks, we have mortgages and bills to pay. They won't get too many middle class buyers with the current prices. That explains why I've never once seen a Zero motorcycle in my area.
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A Zero costs far more than $5k per bike to design, manufacture, test, warehouse, distribute, support and market.
Some of those costs scale better than others. For example, the cost to market gets less expensive per bike, the more bikes you sell. However, Zero is a mid sized company that has outside investors who need to get paid so there's a limit to how deep they can go into their own pockets as they try to scale up. (they're not public like Tesla and can't spend against their share price on the stock market)
And they already offer seasonal discounts and promotions. I got my 2017 DSR at a $3000 discount and they threw in $1500 worth of accessories.
Yes, list price on the bikes is expensive, and dealers don't have a lot of room to discount new bikes, but you're getting a relatively rare piece of seriously high technology with a much lower cost of ownership than a comparable ICE bike.
I'm on my second Zero and complaining about the price hasn't entered my mind for one second.
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What would I buy?
Put 8 bricks of battery packs together in a beefed up frame, add Tesla compatible charging and a slick aerodynamic package making for a long-range (~200 mi.) cruiser. Oh, then we would need cruise control.
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My 2017 DSR already has traction control.........it's called Eco mode. Seriously, the power reduction in Eco mode on my DSR is so significant that I doubt I could spin the rear wheel on anything but maybe a solid sheet of ice. The Eco mode on my FXS wasn't as pronounced.
Is this everyone's experience that owns a DSR? How about those who have other models?
I own an FXS and we had dealer days this past weekend at our local dealership, so I rode the SR. In eco mode it is a dog, more so than my FXS, so yes, I can confirm what you state. I am guessing that the actual programming may be very similar, but the SR is a lot heavier than the FXS.
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I'd like to see active variable re-gen some day- I know there are some posts for it on the unofficial Zero manual, but I'd love to convert my vestigial left foot downshift motion into anywhere from coasting at 0 Re-gen to enough to stop the bike decently quickly -- like the finesse of stopping with your rear brake only.
-- Oh, and +1 better firmware/testing. I purchased my 2018 SR with the Quick Charger and I've only had it for a total of 7 days since my March 14th purchase due to charger errors. I've taken it in three times and my most recent issue may be inherent to all quick chargers -- an inability to tolerate a quick charge station throttling from 6kW to 3kW. I'm also the one to thank that now Zero must test all quick chargers for a minimum of 20 minutes as they were having overheating issues at the 20 minute mark. Woo...
Cheers,
PS, can you make this variable regen reverse compatible with previous gen models? Thanks! =o)
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I still can't shake the need for an Alta Supermoto !!!!
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Summary of several prior "You kids get off my lawn" posts by luddite elitists:
"I don't need no stinkin' ABS/traction control/cruise control/ etc etc -- and therefore neither do you!"
Pretty much every major manufacturer offers traction control on motos with far less torque than the Zeros. Why? Because it's a good idea!
It can be turned off if that's your preference. Congrats to you that you are motorcycle God and don't need it, fine, but don't bitch if other riders do. It's a performance and safety feature that helps a lot of riders.
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Summary of several prior "You kids get off my lawn" posts by luddite elitists:
"I don't need no stinkin' ABS/traction control/cruise control/ etc etc -- and therefore neither do you!"
Pretty much every major manufacturer offers traction control on motos with far less torque than the Zeros. Why? Because it's a good idea!
It can be turned off if that's your preference. Congrats to you that you are motorcycle God and don't need it, fine, but don't bitch if other riders do. It's a performance and safety feature that helps a lot of riders.
I have never felt the need for ABS or traction control on my IC motorcycles, but I feel differently when riding my Zero. The Zero has no flywheel effect (having no flywheel ;) ) and therefore if the rear wheel slips when accelerating or braking, there is no delay once the wheel start spinning or skidding. It happens faster than I can react. So I appreciate ABS and would also appreciate traction control.
Whereas with most IC motorcycles, their engine inertia will somewhat control and dampen the rapid spinning of the rear wheel so that you have at least a little time to react and reduce engine or braking power to match the amount of perceived traction, that doesn't seem to be the case with an electric motor drive system.
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Summary of several prior "You kids get off my lawn" posts by luddite elitists:
"I don't need no stinkin' ABS/traction control/cruise control/ etc etc -- and therefore neither do you!"
Really? I definitely don't need or want traction control, but I've never said you shouldn't be allowed it. I don't think anyone's said that either.
(Also, I think instead of "luddite elitists" you mean "riders more skilled than yourself". ;) )
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Summary of several prior "You kids get off my lawn" posts by luddite elitists:
"I don't need no stinkin' ABS/traction control/cruise control/ etc etc -- and therefore neither do you!"
Pretty much every major manufacturer offers traction control on motos with far less torque than the Zeros. Why? Because it's a good idea!
It can be turned off if that's your preference. Congrats to you that you are motorcycle God and don't need it, fine, but don't bitch if other riders do. It's a performance and safety feature that helps a lot of riders.
I have never felt the need for ABS or traction control on my IC motorcycles, but I feel differently when riding my Zero. The Zero has no flywheel effect (having no flywheel ;) ) and therefore if the rear wheel slips when accelerating or braking, there is no delay once the wheel start spinning or skidding. It happens faster than I can react. So I appreciate ABS and would also appreciate traction control.
Whereas with most IC motorcycles, their engine inertia will somewhat control and dampen the rapid spinning of the rear wheel so that you have at least a little time to react and reduce engine or braking power to match the amount of perceived traction, that doesn't seem to be the case with an electric motor drive system.
I have experienced this directly, fishtailing in oily situations on rough-pavement hills in Seattle in the rain. The bike (my 2013 DS in that case) is controllable and recoverable but it's at least worth considering tweaking the "poor man's traction control" of limiting the RPM ramp rate in the Sevcon controller to avoid spin-up which can be scary or at least catch the rider off-guard and cause them to low-side in (say) an intersection where they are vulnerable to traffic.
Eco mode is the workaround for now - if you suspect that traction is limited, put the bike in Eco mode so you don't get a sudden surprise.
Zeros do get damaged because of a loss of traction and this feature would address that.
Naturally, anyone who wants to perform a burnout or something will want to override this, so it is a feature request if applied generally and not just a settings update.
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Summary of several prior "You kids get off my lawn" posts by luddite elitists:
"I don't need no stinkin' ABS/traction control/cruise control/ etc etc -- and therefore neither do you!"
I think instead of "luddite elitists" you mean "riders more skilled than yourself". ;) )
Sure, Fred, I readily accept that there are many riders more skilled than me. I'm downright sure of it. If they don't want traction control, fine.
My point is NOT that everyone should want TC. If you don't need it even with the instant torque Zeros deliver good on you.
Rather
I wish that Zero would offer TC, just like pretty much every other moto manufacturer. Even Vespa has TC! It's not that exotic. Sure make it optional or switchable so you can turn it off if you prefer. Like for riding on gravel or trails or whatever. But make it available.
And I still object to smug posts that tell me that what I want is wrong because it's not what the superior poster thinks I should want.
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To all who think you can always control a Zero SR if the back tire breaks loose you are fooling yourself, because you can't, because you won't even realize what is happening to you. I speak from personal experience. A few years ago I was charging my SR at the Deals Gap campground. The ground was damp but all pavement was dry. When I got done charging I headed out to ride the Tail of the Dragon, never giving a thought that my back tire was damp and that traction may not be what I was expecting. As soon as I got heading straight up US-29 I pinned the throttle which I distinctly remember doing. Instantly I had no idea what was going on or what was happening or when it might end. When I came to I was about ten feet away from my SR, laying on the ground. I looked over to Deals Gap and riders were rushing over to help me and get everything out of the road. Based on all the scrapes to my helmet and riding gear I clearly took quite a tumble off the bike. I don't remember any of it. The left handlebar hit my left leg so hard it took a month and a half for the pain to completely go away. Can only compare it to someone hitting my leg with a baseball bat as hard as they could. But my left leg is only about 18 inches from the handlebar. So in that short of a movement the handlebar was able to inflict a very severe soft tissue injury. Having put over 38K miles on a Zero SR the one aspect of the bike that impresses me far more than any other aspect is how violently you can get removed from the bike if the back tire breaks loose under the right conditions.
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To all who think you can always control a Zero SR if the back tire breaks loose you are fooling yourself, because you can't, because you won't even realize what is happening to you. I speak from personal experience. A few years ago I was charging my SR at the Deals Gap campground. The ground was damp but all pavement was dry. When I got done charging I headed out to ride the Tail of the Dragon, never giving a thought that my back tire was damp and that traction may not be what I was expecting. As soon as I got heading straight up US-29 I pinned the throttle which I distinctly remember doing. Instantly I had no idea what was going on or what was happening or when it might end. When I came to I was about ten feet away from my SR, laying on the ground. I looked over to Deals Gap and riders were rushing over to help me and get everything out of the road. Based on all the scrapes to my helmet and riding gear I clearly took quite a tumble off the bike. I don't remember any of it. The left handlebar hit my left leg so hard it took a month and a half for the pain to completely go away. Can only compare it to someone hitting my leg with a baseball bat as hard as they could. But my left leg is only about 18 inches from the handlebar. So in that short of a movement the handlebar was able to inflict a very severe soft tissue injury. Having put over 38K miles on a Zero SR the one aspect of the bike that impresses me far more than any other aspect is how violently you can get removed from the bike if the back tire breaks loose under the right conditions.
Aye to that! Having had a very similar experience, I'm all for traction control. Even Brian's idea for a poor man's version would be a giant leap beyond what we have now.
I was thrown off in the blink of an eye. No time to react.
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Everybody's got an opinion, including me. :)
When I was younger, I got in trouble on the motorcycle fairly often. Low-siding when a misty rain had made painted markers on the pavement very slippery or when gravel made the traction disappear, just plain misjudging a curve when riding too fast, etc.
But it's been years, maybe decades, since anything like that happened to me. Maybe I just don't feel the need to ride as fast as I used to, or maybe more experience leads me to not over-drive my line of sight, or whatever. It's not necessarily about being a better rider, it's about higher experience and awareness levels keeping me from getting INTO the kind of jams I used to be unable to get out of. I now know just how slippery those painted markers can be, and to look for gravel on the outside of curves. Everybody has to learn these things at a young age; some of us have already learned those lessons.
For that reason, I don't care for traction control. I don't really want to spend the extra money to amortize the development and/or licensing costs. I don't want to pay for any extra components (I don't think my 2014 SR even has wheel speed sensors), nor do I want to carry the extra weight around. I can see the value in traction control for those who don't have the experience levels of some of us yet, but I also think those lessons about traction are important ones and should be learned by every rider at some point. If we keep catering to the lowest common denominator, we'll all be riding around with outriggers soon.
That's my opinion, FWIW. Yours may vary.
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Everybody's got an opinion, including me. :)
When I was younger, I got in trouble on the motorcycle fairly often. Low-siding when a misty rain had made painted markers on the pavement very slippery or when gravel made the traction disappear, just plain misjudging a curve when riding too fast, etc.
But it's been years, maybe decades, since anything like that happened to me. Maybe I just don't feel the need to ride as fast as I used to, or maybe more experience leads me to not over-drive my line of sight, or whatever. It's not necessarily about being a better rider, it's about higher experience and awareness levels keeping me from getting INTO the kind of jams I used to be unable to get out of. I now know just how slippery those painted markers can be, and to look for gravel on the outside of curves. Everybody has to learn these things at a young age; some of us have already learned those lessons.
For that reason, I don't care for traction control. I don't really want to spend the extra money to amortize the development and/or licensing costs. I don't want to pay for any extra components (I don't think my 2014 SR even has wheel speed sensors), nor do I want to carry the extra weight around. I can see the value in traction control for those who don't have the experience levels of some of us yet, but I also think those lessons about traction are important ones and should be learned by every rider at some point. If we keep catering to the lowest common denominator, we'll all be riding around with outriggers soon.
That's my opinion, FWIW. Yours may vary.
I accept your points about paying for development costs, equipment and weight. This may be naivety on my part, but I would think that the "poor man's" version would be extremely low cost. No wheel sensor would be needed since you already have motor RPM. It would seem to me that the programming would be pretty simple using the tech that's already on the bike.
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And I still object to smug posts that tell me that what I want is wrong because it's not what the superior poster thinks I should want.
You're still missing the point. You want traction control. I don't. We're both right. I've never said you're wrong or shouldn't want it. (Remember the post title is "what do we want for 2019".)
Also, didn't your post say something entirely different before you edited it? I got an email notification to that effect anyway.
I was only joking about more skilled riders by the way. Sorry if you thought I was being serious.
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> I still can't shake the need for an Alta Supermoto !!!!
Are you in the right forum?
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> I was only joking about more skilled riders by the way. Sorry if you thought I was being serious.
"Sorry if you thought" is harsh.
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What? How is a genuine apology a bit harsh? If people on this thread are going to take offence where none is intended then I'm just going to shut up and leave you to it. I hope everyone gets what they want for 2019.
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Everybody's got an opinion, including me. :)
When I was younger, I got in trouble on the motorcycle fairly often. Low-siding when a misty rain had made painted markers on the pavement very slippery or when gravel made the traction disappear, just plain misjudging a curve when riding too fast, etc.
But it's been years, maybe decades, since anything like that happened to me. Maybe I just don't feel the need to ride as fast as I used to, or maybe more experience leads me to not over-drive my line of sight, or whatever. It's not necessarily about being a better rider, it's about higher experience and awareness levels keeping me from getting INTO the kind of jams I used to be unable to get out of. I now know just how slippery those painted markers can be, and to look for gravel on the outside of curves. Everybody has to learn these things at a young age; some of us have already learned those lessons.
For that reason, I don't care for traction control. I don't really want to spend the extra money to amortize the development and/or licensing costs. I don't want to pay for any extra components (I don't think my 2014 SR even has wheel speed sensors), nor do I want to carry the extra weight around. I can see the value in traction control for those who don't have the experience levels of some of us yet, but I also think those lessons about traction are important ones and should be learned by every rider at some point. If we keep catering to the lowest common denominator, we'll all be riding around with outriggers soon.
That's my opinion, FWIW. Yours may vary.
Doug S, one way to reduce per unit development costs and keep motorcycle costs down is to create a larger market for them. Making motorcycles safer for inexperienced riders helps to increase the size of the market.
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Amen to that.
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1. More range
2. Lower cost
3. More speed
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1. More range
2. Lower cost
3. More speed
We say that every year, but I haven't seen much progress towards those three goals since 2014. ??? My 2014 S (which my daughter is now riding) had just about the same range, speed and cost as my 2018 S.
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Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand. The demand is luke warm at the moment because the technology is still relatively new and the prices are too high for the average motorcycle buyer. I would expect to pay a little more than a gas bike but not as much as a brand new car or nice used car.
I've been lurking these forums, YT videos, and the Zero website for years. Every year I check back in to see what changes they've made. The prices are the main thing holding me back.
As MostlyBonkers stated above "I'm now of a mind that they should concentrate on reducing the price. They are selling a very standard mid range motorcycle at a premium price." I completely agree. For the price you're paying for these motorcycles you should never have to wait a month for the company to respond to your issues, as JaimeC has experienced.
The longevity of these bikes is also a concern to me. The warranty doesn't seem to cover everything. I've also read plenty of issues people have had within the first 2 years of owning one. I'd be curious to know factual stats as to how many people have a problem with their bike within the first 2 years (actual problems, not something like needing new tires because they're worn out). I really want to own a Zero but I feel like they need a few more years to work out some kinks and improve everything.
There's no way I'm going to drop $11-$16k on a brand new bike to have something like this happen on day 1...if this had happened to me, I would've returned it the same day for a full refund and never looked at the company again. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence but that's just crazy. Makes you wonder how it passed quality control on the way out of the factory... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc-Qek-0y9s
That's my video, cool.
Well, as that person who had that failure, here's my suggestion:
-Make a firmware stack that is reliable
-Fix the OTA update
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I want for the bikes to be more reliable.
A warranty that covers everything (except for usual maintenance and accidents, of course) within the first 5 years (or 100.000 miles) would make people a lot more optimistic about its longevity.
I want the shops to be able to quickly fix any problems.
So a better repair/workshop manual, backoffice software and reduced shipping times (in EU) would go a long way.
They advertise the Zeros as being basically maintenance free. Now they have to put the money where their mouth is.
This year I had repair costs of about 2500 EUR already, and I expect another 2000 EUR in the second half of 2018. (axle, motor, MBB & BMS)
That's for a MY2014 - so Zero should "prove" that the newer bikes are actually as robust as they want them to be.
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I ride a 2013DS 32000km with 12.5kW battery replaced previous owner (11.4kW battery was fine, but <free> recall by Zero because of possible production error).
Ride in any weather for over 10000km now and bike was/is perfectly performing.
Went to my new dealer and he was surprised:
* 2013 had better front brakes (Nissin) than 2018 model (floating both pads on 2013, on 2018 1 side floating)
* he saw some other minor differences better on 2013
So on a 2018 model u would expect better, for sure because of the (his words) "insane" prices.
But, I'm really happy with my bike and its very reliable, sure I have my wishes.
Zero should/could offer:
* standard: 4kW/h charging in belly pan (really, no increase from 2013 till now is really like.........)
* optional: 8kW/h, 12kW/h, ... in belly pan (something like Diginow 2.5 proves it's possible), get rid of charge tank option, weight to high on bike
* standard: use all space available in dummytank for storage, maybe even possible get a helmet in there???
* standard: make frame wider and little higher (like "normal" bikes) to have the battery options: 8kW, 16kW, 24kW, ... (standard 8kW to keep price lower but still acceptable range for most)
* optional: faring with options: >10% , >20%, >30% increased range at 100km/h
* optional: battery heating if temperature <0 degrees in winter (now my charging sometimes will start after 1 hour, even if I've just been riding it in winter...)
* standard: LED
* standard: make the long front fender of DS/DSR model more rigid (I now have put the metal guard on it, so I don't get sick watching it bouncing on highway speeds, and more stable ride!)
* optional: 3 different seats (comfort)
* optional: ALL possible adapters connecting house / chargestations options to your bike and different lenghts of cables
* better communication with dealers and deliver items faster, watch out dealers will drop out (for sure if Honda, BMW or any large brand will making large quantities electric bikes in future)
* warranty on battery <80% capacity should be 200000km OR 10 years, AND 200000km on electronics/motor: so every potential buyer and owner is not thinking about it anymore. Also for reselling would be better.
* have a Europe based storage so bikes/items are cheaper and faster to get in Europe (my Givi topbox and Zero rack was 5 weeks waiting)
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A dealer "certified" used extended warranty would help trade ins. Higher on board chargers only work for higher non U.S. outlet options. That why those have stayed at the same 1.3W rate.
I expect at least one big new bike option for 2019. I'll see if I'm right soon enough.
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What? How is a genuine apology a bit harsh? ...
"Sorry if you thought..." says you are not sorry about what you said. You are throwing the blame for the offence on the person offended. I.e. it sounds not genuine, regardless of how genuinely you meant it.
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I first want to say that for such a young company they are doing rather well.
My wish list. :) Most of this should not break the bank for Zero.
Fairing. Full or partial. Streamlined to increase range and comfort.
Redesigned rear with a mudguard. Who wants dirt all over the rear of the bike. The current back end looks stylish but is not very functional.
Cruise control. Why not. You can already set max speed. Why not set cruise speed too.
Traction control. Optional of course. Not everyone has tens of years of experience to help with the right wrist throttle control.
More profiles. 3 is very basic.
12 volt 10-20 amp outlet. For heated grips, wests, etc.
USB plug. For charging phone or powering SatNav.
Low power high output light. LED or similar.
Better options for mounting top box and panniers.
Easily mountable range extending battery packs. That you can rent when going on longer trips. Current range of up to 200 km mixed for the S ZF14.4 is plenty for me for daily use.
OBDII connector.
Lower price for mid level models. I cannot justify the cost to my bank manager. I could buy used but they are expensive too and the unknown condition of the battery pack makes it a high risk gamble.
Get rid of firmware issues.
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More than one custom mode.
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Traction control is nice but I think several power modes would work just
as good and be way cheaper to implement.
Aprilia has a Rain mode on entry level bikes like the Shiver.
To the experienced riders that say all the traction control you need is in your
wrist. Just remember that on a gas bike you also are using your 5-6 speed
transmission as a form of traction control. Think short shifting.On the Zero
you do not have this option.
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Traction control is nice but I think several power modes would work just
as good and be way cheaper to implement.
Aprilia has a Rain mode on entry level bikes like the Shiver.
To the experienced riders that say all the traction control you need is in your
wrist. Just remember that on a gas bike you also are using your 5-6 speed
transmission as a form of traction control. Think short shifting.On the Zero
you do not have this option.
The problem with multiple power modes is you never get MORE power.. only less.
a single "low power, im scared because its raining" mode is fine. All the power limiting modes do is make me have to hit the button more times to get it to "off".
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It's not about you and not wanting to sellect from 3,4,5 power modes. Electric
motorcycles are bringing newbs in to the game. They are not scared off by the
traditional motorcycle - clutch and shifting. Twist and go appeals to them.
Anything we can do to expand the market gets more bikes out there. More bikes
to split R&D on. That brings the price down. Lower prices and larger market will
bring more dealers in. I would love to have a dealer open closer to me.
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>Traction control is nice but I think several power modes would work just
>as good and be way cheaper to implement.
I disagree. If I'm in a high torque mode, I'd like the moto to detect slippage and reduce torque. Setting a different mode doesn't fix that.
Detecting overspin would have another advantage too- fewer broken belts.
> Aprilia has a Rain mode on entry level bikes like the Shiver.
Eneregica has a rain mode too. Which I enabled after I wheelied by mistake.
To the experienced riders that say all the traction control you need is in your
wrist. Just remember that on a gas bike you also are using your 5-6 speed
transmission as a form of traction control. Think short shifting.On the Zero
you do not have this option.
[/quote]
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I remember 35-40 years ago (yes I'm old) the cars started coming out with this thing called "cruise control". Mostly we laughed at it and made up bad "true stories" about someone engaging it and going to the back of his RV to make himself a drink. That thing doesn't do anything you can't do with your right ankle!
But cruise control is pretty useful, and it's hard for me to imagine buying a car without it nowadays. I love the "adaptive" one on my 2016 RAV4 -- when the idiot in front of me slows down, so does my car. Personally, I'd love to see Zero add a cruise control and a backup mode, both of which should be possible to add fairly easily, cheaply and safely.
I keep my bike in "sport" mode all the time. It doesn't make sense to me to limit the bike's performance -- I'll control that myself, thank you. If I had ABS like the new bikes, I'd probably leave it on as long as it didn't "false positive" a lot and effect normal riding. Same if I had traction control. I do consider myself an advanced enough rider that I can keep from spinning the rear tire, but many aren't, and as long as there's an off switch, isn't it better to have the option?
I'm sure all of our opinions are subject to change, and we'll see how we feel about it all in ten years. For now, I say it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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#1 thing that needs to improve is customer service.
The fact that I can call at any time of the day and invariably get "no one can answer leave a message" and my messages are never returned makes it really hard to recommend a Zero to anyone. It's atrocious. I'm pretty sure if I said I wanted to buy a bike through the phone menu they'd answer though!
Aside from that it's pretty much all the basic stuff. Traction control would be nice. A reverse button would be nice. I'd love to be able to back it into my garage since the driveway is on an incline. Cruise control is great, especially since this is billed as a commuter bike.
I don't necessarily need more than 3 modes but being able to modify sport and eco to my liking would be nice (I hate the roll-off-to-regen on this bike)
In general though I think 6 years is quite long enough for one generation, and it's time for a redesign of the entire line. Would like to see the offerings grow to include other market sections like minibikes and cruisers.
I really would like to see a better more thoughtful charge/power tank solution. Should be an option to do both. Charge tank up top, without the need for the stock charger, and power tank in the belly pan. Or even just an upgraded belly pan charger so you can have fast charging and still have the storage up top/ability for power tank.
The stock charger in general is disappointing since we've seen how powerful and small the diginow chargers are.
I really, really want better regen with smooth variable control. Replace the flash to pass trigger with a pot-box trigger that controls regen on demand, like how the new volt and bolt have a regen lever on the steering wheel. If they added that it would be really hard for me not to upgrade.
Zeros are great bikes, and they've come a long way in 12 years. But there are still endless ways they can improve and the last few years have felt very stagnant. I'm hoping this new logo is going to come with bolder new changes for 2019.
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I'd like to see active thermal management for the battery pack. Or in other words, the ability to cool the cells during use and warm them when cold.
That would lead to much faster charging and less power reduction due to thermal management.
It would be good to have a bike that can consistently provide the power and torque figures Zero claim. In practice, I'm only seeing them for brief moments at full throttle before amps, kW and torque figures are cut back dramatically. That's even without the motor or the battery overheating. I don't think a Zero would cope with a track day very well at all and it soon complains when ridden hard on the road.
Other essentials:
More range
Aerodynamic fairing for better range and weather protection
Torque control
DC rapid charging
Better customer support (already happening in the UK thanks to Dale)
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caza, I agree with just about everything you said, but especially that it's time for a new model. I doubt Zero has engineering resources to modify all their offering at once, but in my mind, this would be a good time to drop a new model with the following traits:
1) A full-sized bike, as opposed to the smaller bikes Zero has been focusing on. The size itself isn't necessarily attractive to me, but see the next item.
2) A bigger battery, at least as an option. I think a larger frame could accommodate twice today's battery if done properly. Goodbye chatter about "range anxiety".
3) DC charging. I think it's safe to get onboard with CCS at this point. Or take up Tesla on their offer to share their supercharger technology. Better yet, both.
4) An aerodynamic full fairing package, at least as an option. Matching baggage would be nice, too.
To me, all this adds up to either a basic cruiser or maybe a bagger type of bike. Maybe the cruiser could be turned into a bagger with an optional aero package. I'd keep it clean and simple though, no hog wannabes, no gigantic interstate monsters.
Or maybe a nice-looking retro-styled bike, similar to the new bikes Norton and Triumph are bringing out. The industry seems to be offering more "standard" bikes than they did for years. Maybe something reminiscent of the old CB750 Four would interest people...but in general, something bigger, more comfortable, with better range, built for the open road.
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Speaking of HOG wannabes: You will note that H-D's vision of electric motorcycles does not include a cruiser model. That should tell you something about what they think the size of that market is. And they ought to know. Personally, I don't understand why someone hasn't come out with a traditional-styled cruiser platform, but I guess EV manufacturers know more than I do about marketing such a vehicle. ???
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I like the size of the Zeros. I am a fairly big guy 6'3" and after riding bigger bikes, (last one was a Triumph Tiger 1050) I find the lighter quicker handing 2015 Zero DS that I ride more fun than the bigger bikes. Of course I mostly use it around town. I would be happy with basically the same bike with more range, faster charging and a better seat. I am looking at getting a DSR when the 2020 models come out. I would like to set it up with side boxes and a good windshield for longer trips and get a Corbin seat and hit the road.
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@mostlybonkers
I'm a little more conflicted about thermal management. I think in general it is a great idea with a ton of benefits but also, in my day to day riding, even on 100 degree days, my battery doesn't overheat.
The lack of thermal management is a very intentional tradeoff decision for zero. No thermal management means they can have a denser battery. Only so much space in the bike, so denser means more range, and no thermal management means less cost.
Not convinced that thermal management would make a hugely dramatic difference on charge times since we can already get quite a bit of range in under an hour with the charge tank. Hard to find other EVs that give you this much range/minute without DC fast charging.
Where it would make the biggest difference is for the people using the Zero for road trips, switching between fast charging and fast riding all day. This is not normal EV use right now, and even with the bike tuned to the best possible configuration, able to do this without overheating, it's still not going to be a great choice for a road trip as long as the charging availability is what it is now. Zero has chosen to not prioritize these outliers and instead prioritize the most likely people to buy EVs right now. The people who are going to use it around town and for their commute and charge it overnight.
Thermal management is a great feature but I can't really fault zero for making the decision they made. The first question anyone asks about any EV is "what's the range", so Zero's going to make the choice that gives them the biggest number there. Nobody asks about thermal management.
@Doug S
I'm kind of at a "chicken or egg" impasse with DC fast charging. I'm in the SF Bay area, and even here these chargers are incredibly scarce. So I'd have trouble forking over more money for a feature I'll almost never use. But if we don't buy vehicles with DC fast charging ports, there's little incentive to build more stations.
Definitely on board with fairing and baggage options though.
A retro looking bike would be great.
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@Caza
I agree with you about battery density etc. I think that after owning my Zero and having it as my only bike for over two and a half years, my mind is turning to what I miss from an ICE bike. Like Doug, I'm keen for electric bikes to make the leap from commuters to tourers.
There are very few bikers out there willing to hang around for a couple of hours while their bike charges. We do need active thermal management and rapid DC charging to achieve 20-30 minute charge times. This will inevitably mean a much bigger bike and I think it would appeal to those that ride big adventure bikes. They all enjoy comfortable bikes with long range and effortless power. I'd love to see what Zero could come up with for that market.
Sadly, I don't think the commuter market is embracing Zero, possibly because it is very price sensitive. The touring market has a lot of fifty somethings in it who have money to spend on expensive bikes. I'd love to see an electric GS!
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I've been thinking about a compact, lightweight system for cooling pouch cells for quite some time, and I think it could be done fairly cheaply and easily.
Take a thin piece of aluminum sheet, maybe 1/16" thick. Cut pieces as long as the battery cells, but a bit wider. Put a piece in between each of the cells. Gather the excess width on one side of the stack of cells, forming a small "tunnel" on one side of the assembly. A small blower could blow air through the tunnel to cool the ends of the plates, drawing heat out of the cells. Thermostatic control would provide airflow only when needed, preventing over-cooling and increasing the life of the blower.
You wouldn't have any concerns with water pumps, radiators, leakage or coolant maintenance. It wouldn't give you a ton of cooling, but you don't need all that much. We're making due with none right now, with the cells all jammed together and really no opportunity for cooling at all for the cells in the middle. The amount of heat transferred could be increased by etching the ends of the plates and/or creating turbulence in the tunnel. It would increase the size of the assembly a bit, but not by a huge amount. I think a small penalty in volume would be well worth keeping the cells from overheating.
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@mostlybonkers
I do really like the idea of a huge, decked out electric adventure bike with a giant battery and every feature we crave
I really wonder what pricing would be like. A 1200GS adventure is 25k. though, so Zero could probably go as high as 30 and still have it seem fairly reasonable to someone in the market for that kind of bike.
@Doug S
I like your idea. We don't need top of the line bombproof cooling, just something slim and simple.
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@mostlybonkers
I do really like the idea of a huge, decked out electric adventure bike with a giant battery and every feature we crave
I really wonder what pricing would be like. A 1200GS adventure is 25k. though, so Zero could probably go as high as 30 and still have it seem fairly reasonable to someone in the market for that kind of bike.
@Doug S
I like your idea. We don't need top of the line bombproof cooling, just something slim and simple.
The problem with pricing any motorcycle, much less one with completely new technology, at a price of $25-$30K USD is that pricing at that level is not going to grow the market. You will always be able to sell some vehicles at that price, but not many. The BMW GS is being mostly bought by the same demographic that purchases the H-D and Indian brand at that price range. Older "baby boomers" who are retired and have a lot of spare cash to spend since their homes are paid off and their kids are on their own (like me).
But eventually customers like me will die off. Already, I am seeing my motorcycle riding friends and acquaintances giving up on riding, taking their motorcycles and stuffing them into the back of their garage to remind them of their younger days, retiring to the easy chair and spending their days watching fake news on the internet and pharmaceutical commercials on the TV.
What Zero needs to do (and I think they know it) is to lower the price of their electric motorcycles as much as possible to attract new customers into the "fold". They can always introduce a high-end model with all of the bells and whistles if they want, but their "meat and potatoes" need to be the lower price bikes that will attract new younger customers who would like to ride electric but just can't afford to spring for the big bucks for a loaded model. They need to concentrate on relatively inexpensive commuter models to attract young working customers who will see that electric motorcycles are not only practical for getting to their jobs, but can also offer an inexpensive mode of transportation that is quiet, environmentally clean and also fun to ride - and doesn't require a lot of expensive maintenance to keep running.
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When Streetbike had five 2014DSP bikes to sell at 6,500 GBP they all went quickly. They do need to be at the same price point as a comparable petrol bike for them to sell. I don't think the battery costs have come down enough for that to happen yet.
Unfortunately I don't think most prospective buyers are willing to pay more for an electric bike on the understanding that running costs will be lower and total cost of ownership will be less. They just want a bike that's going to be cheap to purchase. If they want cheap running costs they'll buy a 250cc and the bike will only cost about 4,500 GBP. Zero have got a long way to go to compete with that.
The time will come, but I think we'll be waiting a good few years. Could Zero release a budget model right now? I'd like to see that.
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I mean for me the key is adding one thing doesn't mean abandoning another. An expanded range means an expanded customer base.
Yeah the $30k adventure bike isn't going to push out record numbers, but it will get more people into the zero brand.
The budget bike or minibike won't be for everyone either, but it will allow people to try a good electric bike without having to invest so much.
I'm just saying they should cast a bigger net.
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t's not just about sales numbers, either. The Tesla Roadster never sold enough to make Tesla profitable, but it made one hell of a splash. Even the Model S was just a springboard, attracting attention and changing opinions about what an EV could be. It's over a decade later and Tesla is only now getting close to being profitable.
I still, all the time, get the head-spinning "Is that an electric motorcycle??" question. Even motorcyclists don't realize it's happening, let alone what it could be. Those that realize electric motorcycles are a real thing are mostly only aware of the Harley LiveWire. I think Zero needs to make an attention-grabbing motorcycle, not just to sell it for itself, but also just to show people what electric motorcycles can be. People might actually aspire to a bike like that, and take a look at the other models. That's what premium models are for, to bring traffic into the dealership.
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Yesterday at the NEV event I only had three people stop by and ask me about my Zero. None of them had heard of Zero, where they are located, or knew that electric motorcycles even existed. Sounds to me like Zero needs to step up their advertising campaig, or at least get some news into the general public's eye somehow.
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Yesterday at the NEV event I only had three people stop by and ask me about my Zero. None of them had heard of Zero, where they are located, or knew that electric motorcycles even existed. Sounds to me like Zero needs to step up their advertising campaig, or at least get some news into the general public's eye somehow.
I heard from a few people at our Reno event who'd sold their (older) Zero bikes how difficult it was to find their buyer(s). They wanted to know if the newer model years are fully maintainable by owners, how had things changed since they sold their bikes and Zero Motorcycles doubled down on the dealership model. Basically if there's no dealership then that geographic region is not likely to be interested in the bike anyways. Even the really motivated adventure family (from an encounter earlier this summer I'm recalling now) that had eight or nine Zero bikes said it was a pain in the ass to trailer them all 150mi+ to a dealership and they were just glad to only have to do it once or twice a year; When they had a problem with a Zero or the older model would not be worthwhile to repair, it got relegated to the garage and they bought a new one.
These aren't bikes meant to be ridden more than a few thousand miles under warranty or outside of a town that has a dealership. I've tried a reasonable effort to purchase dealer tools to maintain my own, and was told that it is too risky (in the liability sense). Together with the awful state of charging electronics on OEM Zero bikes as a market, this message to me is that the market for resale is limited exclusively to towns where a dealership exists or to persons who are willing to trailer their bikes 150mi+ for maintenance.
They are toys.
Yet, people who have purchased a Zero with the expectation of it being merely an expensive toy are blown away by how quickly it becomes a favorite vehicle to ride. Apparently some of these people enjoy their bikes for many hundreds (and possibly even a few thousand) of miles never touching a bolt or having a problem of any kind - save for trying to resale the bike which is still to an artificially limited market I describe.
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I've ridden my 2016 DSR for 8500 miles, hard, and haven't had to touch a bolt... Save for the two belts I snapped jumping gutters and speed humps :P
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So.. nothing yet on the 2019 models. No leaks, nothing?
I have my finger ready on the buy-button as soon as they are available, and at least some of the "wants" here have been met. I am om board with (adaptive) traction control (yes, even as a very experienced rider. Sudden and unexpected loss of grip happens you know). Heated grips stock on EU-models at least should be a no-brainer on a bike with so much power on hand (pun intended). Both features are selling points if Zero wants to move bikes in the colder regions.
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So.. nothing yet on the 2019 models. No leaks, nothing?
I have my finger ready on the buy-button as soon as they are available, and at least some of the "wants" here have been met. I am om board with (adaptive) traction control (yes, even as a very experienced rider. Sudden and unexpected loss of grip happens you know). Heated grips stock on EU-models at least should be a no-brainer on a bike with so much power on hand (pun intended). Both features are selling points if Zero wants to move bikes in the colder regions.
Zero has been pretty good at keeping everything close-hold, so that it really is a reveal when the models are announced. From the past few years, I don't recall anything being leaked or even hinted at aside from the somewhat predictable moderate increase in range/capacity.
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Late October or November before anything official. January or so before they hit the showrooms. Just for fun I'm betting FX/S "R".
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Late October or November before anything official. January or so before they hit the showrooms. Just for fun I'm betting FX/S "R".
I used to think the same thing - until I bought my 2018 Zero S with PT in November 2017. ;)
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Zero would likely fire anybody who leaks details ahead of their official unveiling or announcements.
I have a very strong impression that such firings have happened before. If someone gives you privileged information, and you are excited to tell someone, consider whether they can be identified from your report and fired for it.
We can disagree about how a manufacturer does business, but let’s at least agree to not make enemies so that the ecosystem relationships keep improving.
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I think we'd all be happy if Zero froze all bike developments for a year and just put their house in order. Sort out support, quality control, distribution and do some proper marketing. Give the engineers a year to do something worthwhile, like active thermal management for the battery pack along with DC rapid charging. I get the feeling they're all wrapped up in a cycle of incremental improvements. They need to step out of that rut and do something really worthwhile that will make their bikes compelling.
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...DC rapid charging.
I've probably said it before:
This is the key to Zero making it or not in my opinion. If Zero don't do it soon I'm convinced one or more of the bigger brands will, and that would be the beginning of the end for Zero, in my opinion.
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I really think we're years of from DC rapid charging being a "must have"
There aren't enough DC charging stations for it to make a big difference. I live in the SF Bay Area and if my bike had DC charging it would literally never be used because there aren't any around me or the areas I ride to. If that's my experience here, in one of the most heavy adoption areas for EV's, I imagine DC chargers are even less common in the rest of the country.
I really think the charge tank being the standard charger is a much more important step for 2019. Every EV should be able to use a level 2 charger, and 3k extra is too much for a feature that should be standard.
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I have to disagree with you Caza. I was so close to buying a brand new DSR with a charge tank this summer and the main thing that stopped me was charge times. If I'm riding a bike for leisure, I want to go a decent distance and sometimes ride with others. Those others might tolerate the odd stop for twenty minutes at a rapid DC charger, but they sure as shit won't hang around for up to two hours. I wouldn't want to myself, even when trying to talk myself into long lunches etc. Nope, I just want to get back on the road quickly. I want the same range my bladder can cope with at decent speeds and charging that takes as long as a pee stop.
Yes, there are the likes of Benswing out there and occasionally I'd be happy to do that kind of touring. After all, I absolutely love riding my Zero and that's after 25,000 miles and well over two years. Most of my bikes get swapped out much quicker than that.
Electric bikes need rapid charging like ducks need water. They also need active cooling for the battery to support rapid charging. I can state that with some authority. Not necessary for a commuter bike, but absolutely necessary for anything beyond that. In fact I'm so convinced of it that I think that it will be the tipping point for electric motorcycles. Bring that to market at a reasonable price and sales will rocket. Until then, I'm afraid it's a very niche market of enthusiasts and wealthy commuters.
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There aren't enough DC charging stations for it to make a big difference. I live in the SF Bay Area....
Let's check. I'm attaching two screenshots from plugshare, one in the San Diego area where I live, and a larger shot showing a good part of California. I set it to show CCS stations only. Unfortunately plugshare doesn't differentiate between CCS stations, so it's not guaranteed that a particular station has the combo plug for DC charging, so you'd have to call ahead. But I'm sure the newer ones mostly use the combo plug, and the percentage is only going to go up.
I'd have no problem getting from here (San Diego) up to Palm Springs, or even up to the bay area on either the 101 or the 99 (not sure why them instead of the 5, but who cares?), depending on whether I prefer to go through Santa Barbara or Bakersfield. Can't quite get to Arizona or Vegas yet, but it shouldn't be too long now.
I'd have conceded that argument, even made it myself, when I bought my bike in 2014. I think it's a much harder argument to make today, and it will be impossible in another 4 years.
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+1 Doug and I forgot to mention there are plenty of DC rapid chargers in the UK now. We'd always like a lot more to reduce the risk of bad luck, queuing and so on, but they're coming.
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+1 Doug and I forgot to mention there are plenty of DC rapid chargers in the UK now. We'd always like a lot more to reduce the risk of bad luck, queuing and so on, but they're coming.
Just as long as you don't want to go into Wales. Wales seems allergic to DC charging... ;)
As for the announce of the 2019 models, I'm guessing mid October?
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Traction control.
The off the line acceleration is obvioulsy throttled back so that riders don't loose traction and crash or loop the bike and crash. I want my Zero to go as fast as it can.
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In slightly related news: Motorcycle Consumer News has a "teaser" on the last page of their magazine stating that a full test of a Zero DSR will be in next month's issue. I assume that will be a test of the 2018 model and not a 2019 bike. My guess is that Zero still has some unsold DSR's in the inventory pipeline that they felt will make good test bikes for magazine reviewers to generate a little positive press before the 2019 models are announced - whenever that will be. ???
Another news item that I heard this morning is that bicycle parts are becoming much more expensive due to most of them being made in China and are now being taxed when sourced from that country. Future prices of bicycles and bike parts from Chinese manufacturers are being quoted to retailers as much as 25% more than last year and the bicycle retailers (Mike's Bikes were quoted) are scrambling to find part sources in other bicycle manufacturing countries, such as Taiwan, in order to keep prices for new bicycles and their replacement parts within reason. I sure hope that Zero is not going to be affected by this issue as they probably don't have alternate choices for their parts manufacturers.
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In slightly related news: Motorcycle Consumer News has a "teaser" on the last page of their magazine stating that a full test of a Zero DSR will be in next month's issue. I assume that will be a test of the 2018 model and not a 2019 bike. My guess is that Zero still has some unsold DSR's in the inventory pipeline that they felt will make good test bikes for magazine reviewers to generate a little positive press before the 2019 models are announced - whenever that will be. ???
Another news item that I heard this morning is that bicycle parts are becoming much more expensive due to most of them being made in China and are now being taxed when sourced from that country. Future prices of bicycles and bike parts from Chinese manufacturers are being quoted to retailers as much as 25% more than last year and the bicycle retailers (Mike's Bikes were quoted) are scrambling to find part sources in other bicycle manufacturing countries, such as Taiwan, in order to keep prices for new bicycles and their replacement parts within reason. I sure hope that Zero is not going to be affected by this issue as they probably don't have alternate choices for their parts manufacturers.
I guess those parts manufacturers will just have to open up factories in the U.S. then... Wouldn't you like to see manufacturing come back to your home country? I'm not a fan of Trump, but I do think that manufacturing should come home. Automation should make it affordable.
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In slightly related news: Motorcycle Consumer News has a "teaser" on the last page of their magazine stating that a full test of a Zero DSR will be in next month's issue. I assume that will be a test of the 2018 model and not a 2019 bike. My guess is that Zero still has some unsold DSR's in the inventory pipeline that they felt will make good test bikes for magazine reviewers to generate a little positive press before the 2019 models are announced - whenever that will be. ???
Another news item that I heard this morning is that bicycle parts are becoming much more expensive due to most of them being made in China and are now being taxed when sourced from that country. Future prices of bicycles and bike parts from Chinese manufacturers are being quoted to retailers as much as 25% more than last year and the bicycle retailers (Mike's Bikes were quoted) are scrambling to find part sources in other bicycle manufacturing countries, such as Taiwan, in order to keep prices for new bicycles and their replacement parts within reason. I sure hope that Zero is not going to be affected by this issue as they probably don't have alternate choices for their parts manufacturers.
I guess those parts manufacturers will just have to open up factories in the U.S. then... Wouldn't you like to see manufacturing come back to your home country? I'm not a fan of Trump, but I do think that manufacturing should come home. Automation should make it affordable.
That is a nice thought, but I don't see it happening. Manufacturers will go wherever they can to cut costs. Even the Chinese are moving factories to Vietnam to cut costs as the labor in that country is even cheaper than in China. But I think several of Zero's components are so specialized that they may be stuck with higher prices if things don't get sorted out soon. I don't think they can eat any increases, so we might see prices for Zero motorcycles climbing next year, unless they can get innovative about cutting costs. Perhaps they were able to place a big order for the parts that they needed for MY19 earlier this year and that will buy them some breathing room next year. I am really going to be interested to see what changes the 2019 model year will have and how they will be priced.
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In slightly related news: Motorcycle Consumer News has a "teaser" on the last page of their magazine stating that a full test of a Zero DSR will be in next month's issue. I assume that will be a test of the 2018 model and not a 2019 bike. My guess is that Zero still has some unsold DSR's in the inventory pipeline that they felt will make good test bikes for magazine reviewers to generate a little positive press before the 2019 models are announced - whenever that will be. ???
Another news item that I heard this morning is that bicycle parts are becoming much more expensive due to most of them being made in China and are now being taxed when sourced from that country. Future prices of bicycles and bike parts from Chinese manufacturers are being quoted to retailers as much as 25% more than last year and the bicycle retailers (Mike's Bikes were quoted) are scrambling to find part sources in other bicycle manufacturing countries, such as Taiwan, in order to keep prices for new bicycles and their replacement parts within reason. I sure hope that Zero is not going to be affected by this issue as they probably don't have alternate choices for their parts manufacturers.
I guess those parts manufacturers will just have to open up factories in the U.S. then... Wouldn't you like to see manufacturing come back to your home country? I'm not a fan of Trump, but I do think that manufacturing should come home. Automation should make it affordable.
That is a nice thought, but I don't see it happening. Manufacturers will go wherever they can to cut costs. Even the Chinese are moving factories to Vietnam to cut costs as the labor in that country is even cheaper than in China. But I think several of Zero's components are so specialized that they may be stuck with higher prices if things don't get sorted out soon. I don't think they can eat any increases, so we might see prices for Zero motorcycles climbing next year, unless they can get innovative about cutting costs. Perhaps they were able to place a big order for the parts that they needed for MY19 earlier this year and that will buy them some breathing room next year. I am really going to be interested to see what changes the 2019 model year will have and how they will be priced.
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Automation is happening, and going to continue to happen, everywhere anyway (by every single metric the US is manufacturing a lot more that it ever did with a lot fewer workers; ditto in agriculture where self-driving combines are starting to be used, as well as drones for monitoring growth & water usage).
But nevertheless, given identical automated plants in two different locations, the one with lower labor costs will still win, even if the labor costs are now the engineers & technicians that design, install, oversee and monitor the industrial robots.
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What Wavelet said. "given identical automated plants in two different locations, the one with lower labor costs will still win"
I thought that the US import China tariffs were only on bicycle parts. But I could be wrong. It would be no fun for Zero otherwise. They'd have to pay tariff to import the parts to US and then tariff if they'd export the bikes from US to EU. God bless the US president, he is really helping Zero to do their business, not.
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I guess we will have to wait to find out. I doubt that the electric motorcycle parts business is large enough for any reporter to investigate if those items are on anyone's hit list. ???
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> But nevertheless, given identical automated plants in two different locations, the one with lower labor costs will still win, even if the labor costs are now the engineers & technicians that design, install, oversee and monitor the industrial robots.
It becomes the cost of *skilled labor* that wins, then. And engineering is complicated. A really effective engineer can be worth 10 or 100 engineers that have the skills "on paper" when it comes to keeping an automated plant running.
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Had a chat with a Zero Dealer today.
I've been told they will have the news we've all be waiting for next week :D
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Had a chat with a Zero Dealer today.
I've been told they while have the news we've all be waiting for next week :D
I am surprised that Zero is apparently keeping the date of the introduction of their 2019 models confidential. ??? They certainly wouldn't want to build up any suspense for their potential customers who might be interested in the new models. ::)
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The part of bicycle imports that will be hurt the most by Trump tariffs is the ebike portion, that is bikes with electric assist, which is small but recently exploding segment.
Jobs coming back here at Chinese wages is not much of a plus for the US.
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In slightly related news: Motorcycle Consumer News has a "teaser" on the last page of their magazine stating that a full test of a Zero DSR will be in next month's issue. I assume that will be a test of the 2018 model and not a 2019 bike. My guess is that Zero still has some unsold DSR's in the inventory pipeline that they felt will make good test bikes for magazine reviewers to generate a little positive press before the 2019 models are announced - whenever that will be. ???
Another news item that I heard this morning is that bicycle parts are becoming much more expensive due to most of them being made in China and are now being taxed when sourced from that country. Future prices of bicycles and bike parts from Chinese manufacturers are being quoted to retailers as much as 25% more than last year and the bicycle retailers (Mike's Bikes were quoted) are scrambling to find part sources in other bicycle manufacturing countries, such as Taiwan, in order to keep prices for new bicycles and their replacement parts within reason. I sure hope that Zero is not going to be affected by this issue as they probably don't have alternate choices for their parts manufacturers.
I guess those parts manufacturers will just have to open up factories in the U.S. then... Wouldn't you like to see manufacturing come back to your home country? I'm not a fan of Trump, but I do think that manufacturing should come home. Automation should make it affordable.
I agree. I'm willing to pay more if an American can hold the job. As for automation, while we will lose manufacturing jobs there will be a whole new sector for automation equipment design, manufacturing, repair, and maintenance.
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Agree, but don't think for a second that this sector will employ as many as the "good ol days" of Motor City, etc. manufacturing dominance. In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Now it's the opposite, and no amount of treaty tweaking, tariffs, sloganing, blustering, or similar will change that. The new reality is what it is. So do we in the US put our heads in the sand pining for a past that simply will never come back, or embrace and become leaders in the new reality? Look forward!
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Please be aware that China is actually really good at automation. If you don't think so, look at your phone.
Automation is great, but its expensive and time consuming to design custom production lines, so in most cases, it requires volume. Good manufactures do manual where it makes sense and automation when it makes sense. Tesla is learning this lesson right now.
The problem with Zero is that Zero has zero volume. Other industries would laugh at Zero's volume and that means that Zero does not have a lot of buying power. I'm sure some of Zero's parts are off the shelf, but I don't think there is much volume there either.
What I want in 2019 is for Zero to increase it sales, make a profit and improve their company - better service, better reliability, lower prices, more models and accessories. I don't know, but based on Zero's cash injections last year, I don't think they are profitable yet. I've heard former employees say that they need to double there sales to break even.
I think tariffs are stupid. They may protect a American job that his hanging by a thread, but I don't think it would get one back.
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Please be aware that China is actually really good at automation. If you don't think so, look at your phone.
Automation is great, but its expensive and time consuming to design custom production lines, so in most cases, it requires volume. Good manufactures do manual where it makes sense and automation when it makes sense. Tesla is learning this lesson right now.
The problem with Zero is that Zero has zero volume. Other industries would laugh at Zero's volume and that means that Zero does not have a lot of buying power. I'm sure some of Zero's parts are off the shelf, but I don't think there is much volume there either.
What I want in 2019 is for Zero to increase it sales, make a profit and improve their company - better service, better reliability, lower prices, more models and accessories. I don't know, but based on Zero's cash injections last year, I don't think they are profitable yet. I've heard former employees say that they need to double there sales to break even.
I think tariffs are stupid. They may protect a American job that his hanging by a thread, but I don't think it would get one back.
+1
It just seems so damn difficult for Zero to sell their bikes. Putting aside Policemen patrolling parks, movie makers (conveniently local) and nerds (I include myself in that category), nobody wants to touch them. Zeros are motorcycles after all, which seems to exclude about 99% of the population. 99% of bikers stop listening as soon as you start talking about range and charging times. It's a really a tough sell.
So perhaps Zero should invest in some marketing that firstly spreads the word and then challenges some of the false assumptions people have.
I've just spent two and a half years riding my Zero and have clocked up 25,000 miles. During those two years I've benefited from extremely low running costs. Putting reliability issues aside, it has been a dream to own and use regularly. No maintenance, no visits to petrol stations, etc, etc... All that time I thought I was riding the very best bike for my commute bar the more powerful SR or DSR models.
Just recently I bought a Honda CB1000R, you know, the funky new one. It drinks fuel, needed a service after only 600 miles, has gears to change, a chain to lube every 200 miles (every few days for me) and I've managed to stall it, crunch the gears, find false neutrals, put it in neutral when I needed a gear, etc, etc...
So, which is the best bike for my commute? The Honda. It is just so much more fun! In fact, it's so much fun that I absolutely don't give a damn about how much it's costing me in petrol. The act of filling it up has become a welcome reminder that I'm using it and having the time of my life! What an amazing bike!!! It's lively, has a real spirit to it, suits me perfectly and is a dream to ride. What's more, it's a lot safer than my Zero because it accelerates faster, breaks quicker, has more grip and has that all important traction control. The fact that it looks superb is just the icing on the cake.
Bikes like the Honda CB1000R are what Zero is up against. They need to make a bike that is more compelling than the current crop of top end bikes. I think it's possible. Why? Because of all the shortcomings that ICE bikes have and we're all so familiar with.
There is no doubt in my mind that electric motorcycles will get a healthy share of the market eventually. My list of things they need to introduce as soon as they can is:
Aerodynamic fairings for a touring bike.
200 miles+ of range at a constant 70-80mph.
Active thermal management for all the components that need it (motor and battery mainly).
Traction control
Rapid charging capable of 20-85% SoC in five minutes.
Weight as low as possible, but keeping in mind that a BMW 1600RT weighs around 380kg. You can get a really decent battery pack in a big bike like that.
I'd make a big tourer that was inspired by the 1600RT but weighs 350kg, has a range of 250 miles and all the gadgets etc with a price tag a couple of thousand below the RT. Chuck in a really sweet breakdown recovery package too so if someone does get stuck while touring, they get very quick five star treatment. So good in fact that they'll be begging the bike to breakdown because their holiday will improve!
Make a no frills commuter that is the same price as the competition, faster and costs nothing to run.
I'm sure that some of that is possible with current technology. If not, it will be in five years time.
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Good post.
Gotta have traction control, heated grips, 12v port, and a real windshield or better yet fairing and windshield.
Also: upgrade regenerative braking. Right now it is just on or off, would be improved if proportional to lever effort. And right now there is a short time lag before activation and a similar lag in deactivation compared to brake lever position. You notice this more if you ride in custom mode with no coasting regen. Just too primitive for 2019.
How long until next gen batteries are in production?
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I'm worried if the Zero quality and the dealer network will stay that way and the Elektor hype is over it will be even more difficult for Zero
Even the debacle of the 2012 Zero this year is likely to deter some customers next year as well.
https://www.christian-jog.de
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I’ve been following this tread for quite a while and thought I would chime in with some comments. First, I think some of the opinions and expectations expressed in this thread may be a bit unrealistic and overly critical of Zero as a company. I think what Zero has accomplished thus far is amazing. The current model line offered by Zero, in my opinion, is spot on and has something to offer for just about everyone. Everything from an entry level FX to the sport oriented SR. I think Zero should just focus on the current six models they produce and work to make them the best that they can be.
Yes there have been some service and support nightmares and Zero definitely needs to work on that. However, I have owned an FXS and currently own a DSR and have had zero (no pun intended) issues with either one of them. The firmware updates are also a problem, if from nothing other than a perception standpoint. I’ve read so many posts about problems that have occurred after performing a firmware update that I’ve put off doing it out of fear that it might mess something up. I still have the original firmware that came with the bike when it was new. Since I’m happy with the way my bike is performing I plan to keep it that way unless I can be thoroughly convinced the update will be an improvement. So far that hasn’t happened. Zero needs to do a much better job of communicating exactly what the firmware update is intended to fix, what it will affect, and what results to expect. There should also be a way to revert back to a previous firmware version if we’re not happy with the results or something goes awry.
Secondly, I don’t think that Zero should attempt to compete in the world of large cruisers or liter class race bikes as some posts have suggested. Those bikes are built for a completely different purpose and I think trying to compare the Zero line up to either of those types of bikes is misguided. The Zero’s are built for short to medium range commuting. That is where they excel and that is what I think Zero should stay focused on. I use my DSR for every day commuting and don’t think I would ever go back to a conventional ICE bike for that. My DSR is perfect for that role. I also have a Honda Valkyrie that I use for highway cruising, day rides, and long range touring and I think the Valkyrie is perfect for that role. I would never think of interchanging the roles for either of those bikes. They are two completely different bikes, built for two completely different purposes.
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They made the Black Forest edition for Europe just because of high demant of touring.
I think good.
Just ad some fairing also.
Touring in Europe is mostly 150-300km a day, perfectly doable on a Zero.
Cruiser would be great for that role also.
Room for 2 battery packs and weight is no issue.
Shouldn't be to hard to make 1 with current parts, tho new frame is needed.....