ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: calamarichris on December 06, 2017, 03:39:53 AM
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Is it possible to get the same efficiency and range in Sport Mode by taking it easy on the go-stick?
I ask because in SoCal traffic can really fluctuate. On our test ride, I was on the freeway in Eco mode, topped out at 70 in the slow lane with a car a few yards behind me. I couldn't close the throttle to make the jump to lightspeed from Eco mode, so I just had to tuck, hold the throttle wide-open and pray.
And for those of you who've done some research or testing on the subject, how do you have your custom settings and why? Or is there another thread where everyone's already revealed their custom settings?
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Yes. I've been advocating it forever. I leave my bike in Sport mode, exercise some discipline, and I've done enough testing to satisfy myself that I lose no range just from being in Sport mode. And when I need to get around a truck because I've almost missed my offramp, no problem at all.
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Glad to hear it, thanks Doug.
Really looking forward to getting mine in a few weeks and fiddling with it.
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In any case, you can change from one mode to another very quickly while riding.
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The best way I found to maximize range is to use custom mode.
100% Max Torque
0% Max Regen
50% Max Regen Brake (100% can get even better range but I have found it's a little aggressive for me)
From there use your wrist to control energy use just like you suggested. Name of the game is coast as much as possible and brake as little as possible. If you do have to brake you can pull the lever just a little and regen will engage but disk brakes will not. Accelerating hard isn't so bad as long as you use all the momentum you gained from the energy use (i.e. don't accelerate hard then hit the brakes hard). You will use slightly more energy if you accelerate hard but doing it a little bit won't make a significant difference in range. High speed kills range more than anything. For every little bit you reduce speed you will get a huge gain in range.
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The only time I use Eco Mode is for slow maneuvering around people (like at the local Cars and Coffee where I can slowly wind my way through the crowd - impossible on a gas bike) and in the wet. I had a nasty fishtail in the rain when i wasn't even accelerating that hard but Sport Mode was too much for the slick road. I've learned my lesson. Other than that it's full juice all the time - that's the reason I bought the bike. I don't really think it lessens my range that much and I don't care if it does.
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In any case, you can change from one mode to another very quickly while riding.
I don't believe you can change modes when your speed is above 50mph.
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You can indeed change it, but you have to close the throttle completely.
Learned that on my first test ride.
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In any case, you can change from one mode to another very quickly while riding.
I don't believe you can change modes when your speed is above 50mph.
on 2014 SR, you have to drop to 60mph and be throttle neutral before a mode change will take.
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The best way I found to maximize range is to use custom mode.
100% Max Torque
[...]
I've noticed that the 100% Max Torque is a bad idea for me if I want to maximize range.
WAAAAY to much fun twisting the throttle.
I'd need a 5 year secluded training in Zen Buddhism at monastery in Nepal before I'll have the necessary discipline to go easy on the throttle with a Zero
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There is discussion of this in several different threads. Lots of people, including me, use 100% torque, 0% coasting regen, 100% brake regen and no limit on max speed.
100% torque - max fun and ability to accelerate out of a situation, if needed
0% coasting regen - coasting is more efficient than regen
100% brake regen - regen is more efficient than friction brakes ; also saves wear on brake pads
max speed - no limit to prevent situation as described in OP
These custom settings will be more efficient as long as you go easy on the throttle.
I never use sport mode and only use eco when I want to limit torque in slippery situations. It's quicker to switch to eco than it is to open up the app and change the custom torque. I wish we could change the settings for the other two modes. I'd make eco with 0% coasting regen and max speed - just limiting the torque. Some people use the custom setting to limit top speed for a pseudo cruise control. I don't do this because I never go on long rides at constant speed and prefer to have the extra reserve if I need it.
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There is discussion of this in several different threads. Lots of people, including me, use 100% torque, 0% coasting regen, 100% brake regen and no limit on max speed.
100% torque - max fun and ability to accelerate out of a situation, if needed
0% coasting regen - coasting is more efficient than regen
100% brake regen - regen is more efficient than friction brakes ; also saves wear on brake pads
max speed - no limit to prevent situation as described in OP
These custom settings will be more efficient as long as you go easy on the throttle.
I never use sport mode and only use eco when I want to limit torque in slippery situations. It's quicker to switch to eco than it is to open up the app and change the custom torque. I wish we could change the settings for the other two modes. I'd make eco with 0% coasting regen and max speed - just limiting the torque. Some people use the custom setting to limit top speed for a pseudo cruise control. I don't do this because I never go on long rides at constant speed and prefer to have the extra reserve if I need it.
That is the way I have my custom mode set. Yesterday I rode 105 miles on 75% of my battery capacity at speeds that varied between 40 and 60 mph, with a lot of up and down riding in the Santa Cruz Mountains and along the Coast Highway.
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My custom mode used 100% regen at all times. I can ride the twisties and hardly ever touch the brakes. I like the fact that I'm not scrubbing off kinetic energy by turning it into heat and black dust, but rather putting the unused energy back into the battery so it can be used later.
Did you know that regen only kicks in when you roll the throttle forward to the stop? If you don't, the bike will coast without regen so you don't have to get that deceleration if you don't want it.
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Ive ridden home from work in Sport mode and can average the same range being light on the throttle. Its a little more work because it is more touchy. What I have been doing is using custom mode to give me a little more excelleration, more coasting on regen but full max speed if needed. That seems to work well in situations like your talking about
Settings are
Max speed:104
Torque: 40%
Regen: 66%
Regen brake 100%
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My custom mode used 100% regen at all times. I can ride the twisties and hardly ever touch the brakes. I like the fact that I'm not scrubbing off kinetic energy by turning it into heat and black dust, but rather putting the unused energy back into the battery so it can be used later.
Did you know that regen only kicks in when you roll the throttle forward to the stop? If you don't, the bike will coast without regen so you don't have to get that deceleration if you don't want it.
That's really cool and I'm glad to hear it! I was wondering about the wiggle-room on the throttle to engage the regen, but you put it into words more elegantly than I could.
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I used to use eco mode in wet weather when I was running on the stock Kendra tyres my DS came with. They were rubbish and were actually quite dangerous when the were nearly worn out.
With good tyres and more miles under my belt I still occasionally use Eco mode when I need maximum range. The reduced torque and throttle response encourages steady riding. It's boring though and gets switched back to custom as soon as possible. I never use sport mode because I like full throttle-off regen. It helps with cornering, by the way, in much the same way as entering a corner in a lower gear does on an ICE bike.
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My vote is on using self-restraint. The muted acceleration with Eco mode means you may not be able to accelerate away from a dangerous situation leaving you with one less option in dealing with the situation. The potential for extra range is not worth the risk.
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My "eco" mode is my right wrist. ;)
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Basically, when I ride around town, I use my "Custom" mode which is 100% for both torque and regen. I get acceleration when I need it, and I don't have to use the brakes very often. HOWEVER, when I hit the highway for my daily commute, I switch to "Eco" mode and use that like a "Poor Man's Cruise Control." The speed limit here in New York may be 55, but unless you're doing 70 or better you're more than likely to get run off the road.
So, I put it into Eco mode (which still gives me more than enough acceleration to pull into traffic from the entrance lane) and just hold the "throttle" WFO till I reach my exit, at which point I thumb it back into "Custom" mode to decelerate on the exit ramp and back on to surface streets.
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So, I put it into Eco mode (which still gives me more than enough acceleration to pull into traffic from the entrance lane) and just hold the "throttle" WFO till I reach my exit, at which point I thumb it back into "Custom" mode to decelerate on the exit ramp and back on to surface streets.
I guess that maybe WOT with a speed limiter is less efficient for long rides than moderating the throttle.
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In any case, you can change from one mode to another very quickly while riding.
I don't believe you can change modes when your speed is above 50mph.
on 2014 SR, you have to drop to 60mph and be throttle neutral before a mode change will take.
2016 SR, same experience.
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So, I put it into Eco mode (which still gives me more than enough acceleration to pull into traffic from the entrance lane) and just hold the "throttle" WFO till I reach my exit, at which point I thumb it back into "Custom" mode to decelerate on the exit ramp and back on to surface streets.
I guess that maybe WOT with a speed limiter is less efficient for long rides than moderating the throttle.
Well, using a speed limiting mode will necessarily mean more and less thrust as you go up or down hill. A throttle lock will hold the thrust steadier, but you might still have to adjust it if the hills are too steep.
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I only use custom mode with everything set to the max. Then I use self-restraint in the wet or if on a long ride.
ECO mode has no magic to it, if you don't put much power in, you can go further. I have done 200km on my 2015 SR in custom mode and self-restraint on the highway. Around town I can get 260km, you just have to go slow.
I like to know that I can have full power if something unexpected happens, and it always does sooner or later.
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I ride my DSR in Custom mode in every weather condition, with 20% coasting regen and 100% brake regen.
Even in some very slippery rainy conditions, Eco mode does not seem necessary. BUT I ride with two crampbuster wide paddles on my throttle handgrip - this is how I control torque and smooth out the use of the throttle.
I had quite a few fishtail situations when riding my 2013 DS year-round in Seattle, so I can't say that a new rider will get the same result as I do now and a lot of it might be due to experience. But the crampbuster makes it very easy to tell where the throttle position is by feel and to reduce adjustments to whatever finesse is needed to merge in traffic.
I also use an Atlas throttle lock for highway operation - this maintains a certain amount of torque / current that is fairly effective at keeping my efficiency up.
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I just leave it all the way up and use my wrist as self-restraint.
The bike already has less power than the other bikes I ride, I see no need to handicap it more.
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In any case, you can change from one mode to another very quickly while riding.
I don't believe you can change modes when your speed is above 50mph.
on 2014 SR, you have to drop to 60mph and be throttle neutral before a mode change will take.
2016 SR, same experience.
I stand.... er sit corrected.
60mph it is (2016 DSR).
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I stand.... er sit corrected.
60mph it is (2016 DSR).
Under 60mph on my 2016 DSR. Mode changes are queued at 60mph indicated, but at 59mph indicated the new mode will activate. If I remember correctly...
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I will have to try this. I have 100% on both regen and brake regen. Just got a 2016 sr last week. I get home from work (40 miles round trip) only have 30% or less battery. That’s going 50-70 mph. Does this sound right or is battery possibly bad. Was expecting to have more range. Worried if it gets cold might be cutting it close.
The best way I found to maximize range is to use custom mode.
100% Max Torque
0% Max Regen
50% Max Regen Brake (100% can get even better range but I have found it's a little aggressive for me)
From there use your wrist to control energy use just like you suggested. Name of the game is coast as much as possible and brake as little as possible. If you do have to brake you can pull the lever just a little and regen will engage but disk brakes will not. Accelerating hard isn't so bad as long as you use all the momentum you gained from the energy use (i.e. don't accelerate hard then hit the brakes hard). You will use slightly more energy if you accelerate hard but doing it a little bit won't make a significant difference in range. High speed kills range more than anything. For every little bit you reduce speed you will get a huge gain in range.
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I will have to try this. I have 100% on both regen and brake regen. Just got a 2016 sr last week. I get home from work (40 miles round trip) only have 30% or less battery. That’s going 50-70 mph. Does this sound right or is battery possibly bad. Was expecting to have more range. Worried if it gets cold might be cutting it close.
The best way I found to maximize range is to use custom mode.
100% Max Torque
0% Max Regen
50% Max Regen Brake (100% can get even better range but I have found it's a little aggressive for me)
From there use your wrist to control energy use just like you suggested. Name of the game is coast as much as possible and brake as little as possible. If you do have to brake you can pull the lever just a little and regen will engage but disk brakes will not. Accelerating hard isn't so bad as long as you use all the momentum you gained from the energy use (i.e. don't accelerate hard then hit the brakes hard). You will use slightly more energy if you accelerate hard but doing it a little bit won't make a significant difference in range. High speed kills range more than anything. For every little bit you reduce speed you will get a huge gain in range.
That doesn't sound too bad to me. Your regen settings won't make much difference, maybe a 1 or 2% improvement in range and that is only if you spend a lot of time with the throttle closed or braking, which is why I prefer coasting with the throttle closed. Expect the battery capacity to decline a bit as time marches on and recharge cycles accumulate. Also, it appears (from my limited observations) to me that the computer needs to have the battery run down to near zero at least once before it starts providing really accurate guesses of battery pack capacity used. That seemed to be the case with my 2014 S. Once I ran it down to zero (not an easy thing to do should you live on a hill), the computer seemed to do a good job of providing the pack capacity and range estimates.
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I will have to try this. I have 100% on both regen and brake regen. Just got a 2016 sr last week. I get home from work (40 miles round trip) only have 30% or less battery. That’s going 50-70 mph. Does this sound right or is battery possibly bad. Was expecting to have more range. Worried if it gets cold might be cutting it close.
There's less overall range when going any faster than say 50mph (80kph) unless you have a full aerodynamic fairing. It's easy to relax and maintain 50mph with a cramp buster on the throttle grip, that helps to have constant power. If you want to do better than 1mi per percent on a ZF13.0 you'll have to try a full run going no faster than 50-52mph. I would expect 70mi or less total range from a ZF13.0 when traveling faster even only 62mph will use much more energy. You said up to 70mph which if I go 70mph sometimes depending on grade and environment could be a range of only 50mi from a full charge! At the very far end of extreme usage I've dumped a 12kWh charge on my ZF13.0 in 30mi... for science...!? ::)
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At the very far end of extreme usage I've dumped a 12kWh charge on my ZF13.0 in 30mi... for science...!? ::)
Team WFO
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I am seeing responses for both 0% and 100% regen. Both camps seems to argue efficiency as at least one of the reasons. I understand that 0% regen allows coasting which may be more efficient than putting power back into the battery. However, the factor not really directly addressed so far is the wear on the brake pads. Has anyone thought about whether it is more efficient to use 0% regen, but replace brake pads more often, vs 100% regen and barely use the brakes? Or is the difference minor?
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... the wear on the brake pads. Has anyone thought about whether it is more efficient to use 0% regen, but replace brake pads more often, vs 100% regen and barely use the brakes? Or is the difference minor?
Regen makes a real impact on brake wear. I have Custom mode set to 80% or 100% regen-on-brake (depends on road trip) and otherwise regen is not active for off-throttle. On Highway I'm using Custom, and as I approach an onramp for suburban or city areas I switch to Eco for that off-throttle regen. I find that in really slow lanesplitting-ideal traffic I will also use Eco because off-throttle regen makes it simpler for me to balance and maneuver the bike at lower speeds versus using the higher settings of regen-on-brake.
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I have been riding / driving electric vehicles for about a dozen years. Everyone cranks up the regen as high as possible when they first get their vehicle in order to help range.
I have found that this generally causes you to slow too much then have to accelerate again because you stopped too short. I run around 15%~20% under trailing throttle
with full for braking. Has worked well for my FX and SR. Also had a lifetime regen rate of 22% on my Focus Electric using Drive with LOW for slowing down. Many Volt owners
feel that it is best to keep in low all the time. I keep my 2017 Volt in Drive, using the paddle almost exclusively for slowing and stopping, only using the foot brake for keeping the
car from moving forward once stopped. Chevrolet says it should get 53 miles on electric. I AVERAGE 80~90 miles on a charge ( extreme hypermiling ).
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I have been riding / driving electric vehicles for about a dozen years. Everyone cranks up the regen as high as possible when they first get their vehicle in order to help range.
I have found that this generally causes you to slow too much then have to accelerate again because you stopped too short. I run around 15%~20% under trailing throttle
with full for braking. Has worked well for my FX and SR. Also had a lifetime regen rate of 22% on my Focus Electric using Drive with LOW for slowing down. Many Volt owners
feel that it is best to keep in low all the time. I keep my 2017 Volt in Drive, using the paddle almost exclusively for slowing and stopping, only using the foot brake for keeping the
car from moving forward once stopped. Chevrolet says it should get 53 miles on electric. I AVERAGE 80~90 miles on a charge ( extreme hypermiling ).
I do the same, except I have the regen turned completely off on a trailing throttle and max regen when braking. That seems to work best for city riding between stop signals. I get up to speed and then coast to the next signal. ;)
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I thought I would chime in with a few comments on the subject. I've only recently started playing around with the custom mode. I now have motor regen set to 0% and brake regen set to approximately 100%. These are the settings I prefer for my daily commuting and I pretty much now only ride in custom mode. The 0% motor regen allows me to give the bike a quick burst of the throttle and then coast the rest of the way.
Perhaps someone can answer this question for me. When using the Zero app to adjust the regen, torque, and speed settings, should I be able to set the percentage anywhere between 0 and 100? I went into the custom mode setting the other day and the app kept resetting the brake regen to 87% when I would set it at 100%. The speed would also revert to 90 MPH when I tried to set it at maximum.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I find the Eco mode on my 2017 DSR to be practically useless.
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I thought I would chime in with a few comments on the subject. I've only recently started playing around with the custom mode. I now have motor regen set to 0% and brake regen set to approximately 100%. These are the settings I prefer for my daily commuting and I pretty much now only ride in custom mode. The 0% motor regen allows me to give the bike a quick burst of the throttle and then coast the rest of the way.
Perhaps someone can answer this question for me. When using the Zero app to adjust the regen, torque, and speed settings, should I be able to set the percentage anywhere between 0 and 100? I went into the custom mode setting the other day and the app kept resetting the brake regen to 87% when I would set it at 100%. The speed would also revert to 90 MPH when I tried to set it at maximum.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I find the Eco mode on my 2017 DSR to be practically useless.
I agree with Eco mode being pretty much useless, except when the streets are very slippery. My custom mode seems to be relatively stable. Perhaps that 90 mph top speed is fixed to the top speed of your model Zero? ???
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I took a look at the specs again for my bike and noticed that the top "sustained" speed is 90 MPH so maybe that is why the app maxes out at that speed in custom mode.
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I tried 0% off-throttle and 100% brake regen, and I am loving it. Watching the range estimate it definitely appears to be more efficient than eco mode, at least anecdotally. I only have about 20-30 miles on this but so far its looking like I will live in Custom mode from now on.
Another benefit not mentioned so far, is if I am slowing, my brake light is on. It always weirded me out slowing down substantially via regen, with my brake light not on. Just pulling in the front brake enough to activate the regen and brake light is enough to do all my "planned" braking until I'm under 5mph.
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I am seeing responses for both 0% and 100% regen. Both camps seems to argue efficiency as at least one of the reasons. I understand that 0% regen allows coasting which may be more efficient than putting power back into the battery. However, the factor not really directly addressed so far is the wear on the brake pads. Has anyone thought about whether it is more efficient to use 0% regen, but replace brake pads more often, vs 100% regen and barely use the brakes? Or is the difference minor?
Oversimplified.
1. coasting is more efficient then accel + regen
2. accel + regen is more efficient than accel + friction braking
What's your riding style and route? If you can do #1, then regen is pointless for you.
Brake pad wear is a different issue. It's an expense, but it's not energy efficiency.