ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: munchmeister on November 08, 2017, 03:55:13 AM
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I'm considering a dive into this e-world, maybe a 2017 DS 13. Of course I want a bike capable of getting a quicker charge at public level 2 stations as well as at home. Realistically what would you experienced owners consider as a reasonable budget for a charging accessory, j plugs, the factory options or aftermarket chargers?
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I'm considering a dive into this e-world, maybe a 2017 DS 13. Of course I want a bike capable of getting a quicker charge at public level 2 stations as well as at home. Realistically what would you experienced owners consider as a reasonable budget for a charging accessory, j plugs, the factory options or aftermarket chargers?
Quick answer, for public level 2 stations, charging with a single J1772, $2500 - $3400. At home I've no idea: I just plug my bike in and it charges overnight, i.e, at home I have no need for fast charging. The factory option for 2018 is good (IMO); for older models, not the best chooice.
Please staart here for more info: https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#Charger_Comparison
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The usual use-case for at-home charging is overnight, so the onboard charger is sufficient for most people. If you do long rides, come home, and then do more long rides, rapid home charging makes sense.
Rapid charging is usually done at public stations, and if you do that, there's are several price points depending on your location. For North America, most J1772 chargers are 6.6kw advertised, so a ChargeTank or a 2-unit SCv2 fit that use case nicely. For even more rapid charging, you can get a dub-J or Tesla inlet setup, 2 SCv2 units in addition to the above and get 13.2kw charging at a substantially higher price point. So... budget depends on needs, what are your actual needs or desires?
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It really depends on what you are using the bike for.
Around town: onboard is fine.
Road trips: digiNow Supercharger v2 with at least two 3.3kW units.
Their prices are listed on their facebook page and charging rates include using the onboard charger.
https://www.facebook.com/digiNowInc/
4.6kW = $1,600
7.9kW = $2,000
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Thanks for the replies. Of course, the hard part for a long time motorcycle rider is determining what I want. I have, and will keep, my 2 current motorcycles, an '02 BMW R1150GS which is my long distance machine. And I have a '16 Honda CRF250L which is a light weight (~325lbs) enduro style which I ride around town and into the Colorado hills on a more regular basis.
I love most of what I have read and watched (YouTube) about the Zero. One thing that interests me is the FX or FXS as a bike that is light enough to haul on my Ford F150 with a Four Wheel Camper pop up camper on it. The camper is under 850lbs, so I have some capacity and I'd like to have a motorcycle that could be used when I'm using the camper. Probably mount a hitch carrier on the back. Since it is a truck camper, once I've settled in at a site, I'm usually kind of stuck there unless I want to drop the top again (which is not really very difficult or time consuming) and pack up gear for, say, going into town to sight see, museums, art galleries (erstwhile artist) or breakfast/lunch/dinner. With a small moto such as an FX or FXS, I could zip around and see the sights, go into town for food, sightseeing, etc.
What would really be nice as well, is if the bike could be charged when at camp via solar panels. I will be installing solar on the camper this fall/winter, to run a vent fan, LEDs and possibly, a 12v refrigerator (Engel or Dometic). If a solar setup could be sized to charge a Zero, that would be fantastic. I currently use a GoalZero Yeti 400 portable power pack, which utilizes a 396 Wh AGM battery and I charge it with two GZ Boulder 30s, for a total of 60 watts (max) of charging. I'm pretty sure this is WAY to small for charging the Zero, but I plan to install an on board system with greater capability.
A local dealer has a 2016 FXS 6.5 for a decent price, which is always appealing. I'm sure the 2018 7.2 would have greater range but at considerable cost. The 2016 FXS 6.5 might be the happy choice. Any thoughts on this idea appreciated!
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>One thing that interests me is the FX or FXS as a bike that is light enough to haul on my Ford F150 with a Four Wheel Camper pop up camper on it
I think the FX/FSX would be a terrific fit for you. The 2016 model should be all you need for your purposes.
> if the bike could be charged when at camp via solar panels
You're right: your intended solar setup is way too small for a Zero.
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Others have said what I was going to say, but I'll pipe up on the solar.
> What would really be nice as well, is if the bike could be charged when at camp via solar panels. ... I currently use a GoalZero Yeti 400 portable power pack, which utilizes a 396 Wh AGM battery and I charge it with two GZ Boulder 30s, for a total of 60 watts (max) of charging. I'm pretty sure this is WAY to small for charging the Zero, but I plan to install an on board system with greater capability.
Yeah, it'll need to be a lot larger to charge your Zero battery full. 396Wh, after D/C-A/C inverter and A/C-D/C charger losses, probably gives you 1/3 of a kilowatt-hour off charge, so it would need to be a lot bigger.
What's your goal for use of your Zero when charged by solar? How many miles of what kind of riding a day? At 100 watt-hours per mile (moderate-low freeway use), a 100 watt panel for one hour would give you a mile, minus a bit for conversion losses.
Hope that example helps with the perspective and planning.
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Others have said what I was going to say, but I'll pipe up on the solar.
> What would really be nice as well, is if the bike could be charged when at camp via solar panels.
I work at Lawrence Livermore Nat. Lab, where they just installed a level2 (J1772) charging station that I believe is completely solar powered. My guess is the panel is 10ft square (3M). I'll try to find and post more details. Unf, I can't take a picture -- I'm not permitted to use a personal camera on site without permission.
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The rule of thumb is that bright, direct sunlight delivers about 1000 watts per square meter, so a 3M square panel would receive about 9000 watts worth of sunlight. Given a conversion efficiency of 15%, that means they'd put out about 1350 watts electrical power in peak sunshine. There must be some sort of storage, or more likely, the system is grid-tied. They may be saying it's "completely solar powered" because they expect the usage duty cycle to be fairly low, and the average power the solar panel puts into the grid should about equal the power used by charging vehicles.
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All of this is extremely helpful, enlightening. I've researched the setups many RV'ers and van dwellers have discussed on various websites so, while I still am bewildered by the topic of electrical energy, I have come to conclude that most RVs or truck campers, etc. only get so far with solar, charging batteries for using 12v appliances, fans, refrigerators, etc. Charging a Zero might be more comparable to trying to run an RV air conditioner. Which is often discouraged even for the most robust solar system.
My use of the FXS would be mostly confined to exploring whatever location I happen to be in, be that getting into a town for a museum, a meal, or zipping around a national park whilst the camper is setup and the top popped at a camp site. It might be that I'd find a charging station at some national parks (?) and certainly if I went to RV sites (though that's not the kind of camping I prefer). But, as an example, I spent 2 days at a KOA outside of Cody, WY. I spent a day at the magnificent Buffalo Bill Center of the West (NOT to be missed! World class art museum, Cody Firearms museum, Plains Indians, Photography, all world class!) And another day exploring the South Fork (Shoshone River--beautiful!). I could have left the camper at the KOA and done these with an FXS, not to mention going in for dinner at the world famous Irma Hotel (named after Buffalo Bill's daugter). Such trips would likely not max out the range.... but it would be nice to be able to at least charge it overnight. No problem at a KOA or other RV site with 15A-50Amp service. It's those more remote places where the FXS would not be usable if it could not be charged. Oh well, I'm used to compromise. 8) ;D
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Even if you don't stay at RV parks, many of them are friendly to EV motorcyclists, though some have been burned by Teslas drivers and may have silly policies like $20 regardless of amount of usage etc.
One strategy is to ride up to an empty space, plug in the NEMA 14-50 and then wander over to the office, say hi, tell them you'd like to use 5 kwh of electricity or whatever, retail value like 50c or $1.00 but that you'd happily pay them double or triple, or have a nice meal at their restaurant, or buy an adapter or a snack or a beverage or something. If they want to overcharge you for the electricity, you can say OK then, I'll just use your restroom and be on my way, and you'll have gotten a half hour of charging by the time you are done. If you have a 1C charging setup, you are half full.
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The rule of thumb is that bright, direct sunlight delivers about 1000 watts per square meter, so a 3M square panel would receive about 9000 watts worth of sunlight. Given a conversion efficiency of 15%, that means they'd put out about 1350 watts electrical power in peak sunshine. There must be some sort of storage, or more likely, the system is grid-tied. They may be saying it's "completely solar powered" because they expect the usage duty cycle to be fairly low, and the average power the solar panel puts into the grid should about equal the power used by charging vehicles.
Most RV systems seem to be rated in terms of watts of output at maximum levels (full sun, aimed optimally, etc). A smallish RV/camper with, say, 600 watts of solar generation with a dual "golf cart" battery system with something like 100 amp hours would be considered a fairly beefy system for LEDs, fans, laptops, charging smart phones. Add a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter to plug in the standard Zero charger. Any of you have an idea of whether that would handle charging a Zero in, say, 12 hours, 16 hrs?? I'm really curious about this possibility, not for fast charging, but just to be able to get the motorcycle up to full very couple of days while in a remote setting, using a solar system sized in about this range.
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The rule of thumb is that bright, direct sunlight delivers about 1000 watts per square meter, so a 3M square panel would receive about 9000 watts worth of sunlight. Given a conversion efficiency of 15%, that means they'd put out about 1350 watts electrical power in peak sunshine. There must be some sort of storage, or more likely, the system is grid-tied. They may be saying it's "completely solar powered" because they expect the usage duty cycle to be fairly low, and the average power the solar panel puts into the grid should about equal the power used by charging vehicles.
Most RV systems seem to be rated in terms of watts of output at maximum levels (full sun, aimed optimally, etc). A smallish RV/camper with, say, 600 watts of solar generation with a dual "golf cart" battery system with something like 100 amp hours would be considered a fairly beefy system for LEDs, fans, laptops, charging smart phones. Add a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter to plug in the standard Zero charger. Any of you have an idea of whether that would handle charging a Zero in, say, 12 hours, 16 hrs?? I'm really curious about this possibility, not for fast charging, but just to be able to get the motorcycle up to full very couple of days while in a remote setting, using a solar system sized in about this range.
so the problem with that, is the zero charger does not "slow down" to a couple days of charging. When that inverter is on, it will draw its normal wattage, and kill your batteries... unless they're large enough to fully charge the bike.
If I was charging the zero off of a 12v, 24v, 48v, etc battery source, I would skip the inverter and run a DC-DC converter. This lets you charge it at a more reasonable rate. Downside is it has to be smart enough to tell the bike its charging. You cant use the key-on trick.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that an FX on the back of a truck camper will have to give way to a good ol' internal combustion motorcycle. Tried and true.
And maybe just get that Zero DSR with charge tank and ride the heck out of it from my base at home. Not a bad choice.
Still thinkin'.... :-\
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so the problem with that, is the zero charger does not "slow down" to a couple days of charging. When that inverter is on, it will draw its normal wattage, and kill your batteries... unless they're large enough to fully charge the bike.
If I was charging the zero off of a 12v, 24v, 48v, etc battery source, I would skip the inverter and run a DC-DC converter. This lets you charge it at a more reasonable rate. Downside is it has to be smart enough to tell the bike its charging. You cant use the key-on trick.
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Why not? Key-on, closes the contactor, and full access to the battery is available at the controller terminals. When my enable circuit was broken (failed on the way to my SCv2 install!) I charged with SCv2 for many months, always key-on. (Zero fixed the enable circuit with a firmware update (!) ).
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so the problem with that, is the zero charger does not "slow down" to a couple days of charging. When that inverter is on, it will draw its normal wattage, and kill your batteries... unless they're large enough to fully charge the bike.
If I was charging the zero off of a 12v, 24v, 48v, etc battery source, I would skip the inverter and run a DC-DC converter. This lets you charge it at a more reasonable rate. Downside is it has to be smart enough to tell the bike its charging. You cant use the key-on trick.
Why not? Key-on, closes the contactor, and full access to the battery is available at the controller terminals. When my enable circuit was broken (failed on the way to my SCv2 install!) I charged with SCv2 for many months, always key-on. (Zero fixed the enable circuit with a firmware update (!) ).
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correct, but you're forgetting the other half of it.. the charger will not always be charging. So all night long and intermittently during the day, your bike is on with the key, but its not charging.
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Right, but with an inverter you could charge it an hour here,
and hour there, do a bit of a charge anytime your solar-fed RV
battery bank gets ahead of your RV living usage.
Obviously this kind of living has to be quite liesurely, you aren't
going to be riding 100 miles a day off your RV's solar unless you
have 10+ square meters for your motorcycle ontop of your other
RV-living uses (rough guesstimate based on 10 hours of sunlight,
10kwh battery, 10% efficiency).
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From experience with a loaner 2017 Zero FX, on a MorningStar SureSine 300 (peak 600W) fed by 400W of solar and 100AH 12V AGM battery, made it a few hours of groaning / screeching / clicky noises coming from both the FX' onboard charger and the inverter. The net effect on SoC for these few hours of charging was a gain of 2%.
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Right, but with an inverter you could charge it an hour here,
and hour there, do a bit of a charge anytime your solar-fed RV
battery bank gets ahead of your RV living usage.
Obviously this kind of living has to be quite liesurely, you aren't
going to be riding 100 miles a day off your RV's solar unless you
have 10+ square meters for your motorcycle ontop of your other
RV-living uses (rough guesstimate based on 10 hours of sunlight,
10kwh battery, 10% efficiency).
If you read the entire post I wrote that you took the snippet from, you would see that I was saying NOT to run an inverter at all, but run a high efficiency DC-DC boost supply. Its low wattage so there are tons of options. Running an inverter from lead-acid into a DC charger to charge the battery is just silly.
You get your solar loss to the battery, and then more loss when you do your higher amperage draw from the battery (peukert effect) and then the inverter efficiency loss and then the charger efficiency loss.
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You still get your solar loss to the battery, but then much less peukert effect from constant lower amperage draw, then the DC boost charger loss.
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Shadow: underpowered inverter, yes, you'd expect failure.
MrDude_1: yes, DC-DC would be more efficient. But 12V+inverter could also work, and might be more acceptable for those uncomfortable with setting up the electronics.