ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Rugby4life on September 12, 2017, 10:50:19 PM
-
Given the currently available equipment/technology, are there any insurmountable issues to prevent developing a SAE Combo charging system for a Zero? I've read bits and pieces in various threads about why it can't be done currently but I haven't seen the information laid out in a format of "This is what can be done to make it happen." For traveling serious miles in a day, a condition I've been suffering with for 3+ decades, a combo setup would be the most convenient. I could use DC when available and standard J plug the rest of the time.
While we're at it, was the lack of compatible Chademo chargers on the west coast the only reason Zero discontinued the option which would greatly benefit east coast riders? We have many compatible chargers especially at almost every Nissan dealership (of which I have 3 within 17 miles).
As I said, I'd like to hear "This is how we can make it happen" instead of "We can't because". Looking forward to learning something new.
-
SAE Combo AC charging is just J1772.
SAC Combo DC charging is runs "homeplug"
ethernet-over-powerline signalling to identify
voltage required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
"support charging at 200–450 V DC"
So DC voltage is too high, but if you are
carrying chargers to charge off AC input,
the same chargers should be able to charge
with DC input (modern switch-mode power
supplies rectify first, and a rectifier fed DC
is usually just rectifier with very bored diodes.)
So, yeah, "just" the signalling to be reverse-
engineered, and an ethernet-capable controller
to be embedded do the signalling.
(BTW, I have found a scientific paper with
plans for a 30kw bidirectional DC-DC converter
that's 98% efficient from 10-90% load that I'm
trying to build- if it works out, it may be applicable
to this project as well as storing solar, etc.)
Re Chademo- the testing was reportedly done on
stations in a network that did not do the lower voltage
the FET-based Zero systems require, but that network
did not expand, and the compliant networks did, so
there's no reason to believe the Chademo devices,
tested today, would not have more success. But no,
I don't think there was a conspiracy against east coast
Zero owners. I think that until Zero starts making a
profit for their investors they have to be very careful
how they spend their limited R&D budget, and that
making better motorcycles with better components and
longer range is, IMHO, doing the right thing.
-
Are you sure any charger can be DC-supplied? I have confirmed it with very small "USB" chargers, but with bigger ones it may not be possible, because of the PFC circuit which expects an AC signal input to synchronise the boost converter with a sine-wave-like input current or voltge waveform.
-
No, I am *not* sure *any* AC charger can be DC supplied.
*Only* the ones that start with a rectifier stage.
That is to say modern switch-mode power supplies.
Please, don't overstate me.
You may have a point about PFC, I may not understand
that part sufficiently.
-
Togo, I believe you misunderstood my question about the Chademo option. I wasn't inferring a conspiracy against east coast riders. I was questioning if there was some other reason to withdraw it as an option for those unaffected by the out of spec chargers. The R&D has already been done so there's no major investment needed to offer it again (with the proviso that it may not work with certain units).
Concerning the DC-DC converter, how would it be fed Chademo or SAE Combo? As I said, I'm trying to understand the hurdles and facilitate a conversation on the present or near future possibilities. As I read your response, the major problem with SAE is the 200v minimum charge rate. So other than charging 2 bikes concurrently from the same plug, is there another work around? Keep the info coming, I'm slowly learning.
-
As I understand it they had developed a product, found it didn't work on
enough of the stations tested that it would be frustrating and expensive
to sell and support. At the time. For the sample of stations available at
the time.
But I don't really know the whole story, that's just what I pieced together.
Yes, I know, not a conspiracy, but you know, you set it up with an East Coast
West Coast kind of comment.
Workaround to the 200v minimum would be, if you have a AC charger that
also works on DC, to run it through that.
In other words, tell the station that you require within the range they can do that
overlaps what the charger can handle, say, 240VDC and use that to run the charger
at a rate limited to what it can do and what your battery can handle.
For example, I'd expect that my diginow SCv2 9.9kw system would (if compatible
with DC, which I have yet to test), be able to take 240VDC to charge my battery at
1C, i.e. 9.9kw, up to 116.5VDC.
So if that's true, then the missing piece is the signalling to tell the station that a vehicle
is present, and that the vehicle is ready to charge at 240VDC.
And the inlet itself.
-
The signalling for Combo CCS is ethernet over powerline, homeplug style.
The signalling for Chademo and Tesla is Canbus.
People having working Chademo or Tesla could help by recording the signalling during live charging sessions, maybe this stuff can be reverse engineered.
-
I just got word that the SCv2 bricks have been tested on DC input, and they run at full power from ~170-360VDC
(And that at < 170VDC they run at reduced power, which is like wall plug / rescue cable mode.)
-
Togo, does that make a SCv2 and Chademo plug a viable option? Also, can the SCv2 be wired to accept both a J-plug AC and a Chademo DC input? not both at the same time, of course, but it would let you use either input based on what's available at that station. Just asking because my understanding of the topic is the figurative equivalent of drawing wiring schematics with crayons.
-
And another crazy idea for those of us with modular FX packs is charge two packs in series, right up to 232VDC. Possible?
-
Meta note: Please title the thread with the actual topic at-hand. "Insurmountable issues" is broad and doesn't indicate whether I should read or archive a thread for the wiki. The topic is SAE Combo charging.
-
Meta apologies Brian. I didn't know there was a titling protocol. Actually, the object of this thread is not as narrow as just SAE Combo charging. I'm hoping to develop an understanding of where we are with DC charging currently and what issues need to be overcome to make it an accessible feature. I started my questions with the combo set up because it builds off the level 2 J-plug that seems to be the most popular. I also asked about Chademo even though it would require a separate J-plug port for level 2 charging. How about a title of "DC Charging Options"? Is changing the title as simple as editing the first post?
Togo's replies are exactly what I am hoping for to answer 3 questions.
1. Where are we now?
2. What are the hurdles to implementation?
3. Here's how we overcome each hurdle. (not technically a question but you know what I mean)
-
I didn't know there was a titling protocol. Actually, the object of this thread is not as narrow as just SAE Combo charging. I'm hoping to develop an understanding of where we are with DC charging currently and what issues need to be overcome to make it an accessible feature. .... How about a title of "DC Charging Options"? Is changing the title as simple as editing the first post?
Done.
Use "Report post to moderator" link and explain what you would like the thread titles changed to. Each post can have its own different title within the same topic. Moderator can help change all titles within the topic. Thanks for contributing!
-
Now that we know what we're talking about, does the DC charging EVSE control the current as well as voltage? Or does it just select and provide a more or less constant DC voltage and leave it up to the vehicle to regulate charging current? As in when to switch from CC to CV etc.
-
I scanned through the CHAdeMO spec briefly a while ago, and IIRC it allows you to specify both voltage and current. So if I understand it correctly, and if the charging stations met the spec (which we know they don't all), we could rig up an interface that told the charger "116V @ 100A" and it would give us 100 amps until we hit 116V, then hold at that voltage while the current ramps down. In other words, a nice clean CC/CV charge that would charge at maximum speed all the way up to 100%.
If only. But it does seem possible to instruct the CHAdeMO station we need, say, 250V @100A, and run one of the high-speed chargers off of that DC voltage, presuming the charger has a rectifier bridge front end, as togo points out. It seems really silly to carry a high-power charger around to make up for the deficiencies of the DC charging equipment that's out there, but it would seem to be possible. If there's nothing around but a CHAdeMO station, you could use it.
I'd imagine that's how CCS handles DC charging too -- it seems like a no-brainer. So assuming a bridge front end, you could do the same thing.
-
Yes I think that's a good explanation of the current situation. With front end signaling decoded it just might work. Thanks, Doug.
-
So direct DC to Zero battery charging won't happen anytime soon, so don't get your hopes up anytime in the near future. The best charging solution for Zero's right now is to use the powerful AC plugs available to us, and to use multiple plugs when available as this is the standard installation pattern I've been seeing the past 4 years is 4, 8, or 20 stations going in all in a row.
I know there are many people who would like to tour on their Zero, which I just mentioned in the 2018 wish list thread that I thought was odd as most touring riders probably didn't buy a Zero. Which is even more reason Zero needs to at least have a 2-3 year plan to release a touring bike that is focused on highway riding speeds.
Right now the best thing going is the Diginow chargers and using Tesla adapters. As battery sizes go up (perhaps next year?) you could run 5 Diginow superchargers off 1 Tesla plug that is 240v and on 100 amp breaker. It will run continuous at 80% of that load which is 20,000 watts, and Tesla tells you that you actually receive 16 kW into your battery after charging losses.
Since 5 Diginows only pull about 16 kW it's well under the max. Hopefully in the future the 1C charge limit will be raised (all logical thinking would have expected this to happen already) as Farasis cells are 3-4 times more power dense than other EV manufacturers Panasonic 18650's or LG Chem cells, yet those car manufacturers will allow 3-4 C charging for the first 40-50%. If we could even just get 2C charging, we could tap 2 of these Tesla plugs. As in many locations there are 4 or more side by side for 64 kW of AC power easy to tap. And these Tesla destination chargers are going in like wildfire right now. The number of stations in the US has doubled in the past 3 months from looking at the map, and I'll bet it continues to double again and again many times over the next 2 years in preparation for the flood of model 3's set to hit the road.
Say you're traveling from Lake Tahoe to Los Angeles. (Shadow? lol) You pick a place to charge in Sacramento. Lets say the Hyatt Hotel to have lunch.
https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/16987
There are 20 Clipper Creeks that are 40 amp units and will do 8000 watts each - so you could tap 4 of these to get 32,000 watts
But even better there are 6 Tesla destination chargers that are 100 amps and can do 16,000-20,000 watts continuous. so if you tapped all 6 of these you could charge at 120 kW, which is current Tesla supercharging speed.
We really need Farasis and Zero to agree on a nice tapered charge curve beginning at 4C as long as the batteries are warm and tapering to 1C around 85% and finishing at a CV charge. The cells are capable of doing it, the Diginow chargers are small powerful and lightweight so it's easy to carry many, and the power is available everywhere and expanding daily.
So why can't we do this yet? Not sure, there really isn't a reason. Hopefully we will be able to soon. Just need Zero to program a tapered charge rate into the BMS firmware. But until Zero themselves offers a charge tank that can do say 25 kW (maybe in 3 years with ultra high switching and efficient SiC mosfets or GaAsFets) there really is no reason to rush into allowing over a 1C charge rate.
Lets hope this happens soon.
-
Here is @electricterry charging up Zak Vetter's bike with DC from his mother ship.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZAPjFUB67E/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BZAPjFUB67E/)
(https://scontent-dft4-3.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/21577102_280665619097248_5335081639196229632_n.jpg)
-
I was trying to do more research on the Diginow SC v2 but the company's website seems to be down/gone. I also looked on Hollywood Electrics site and found the data reaper but nothing on the supercharger. Is something happening with them or am I looking in the wrong places?
-
Redoing site and backend to tie it all in with invoice and shipping. Shoot me an email with any questions, brandon@diginow.it
-
A bit of a shameless plug but I have an experimental ChaDeMo top case for sale if somebody is interested.
-
Terry, dont you think that the reason most Ev battery are 3-4 time less compact could be due to active cooling system implemented and also structural features to add to the car strengh?
I mean the reason why my Volt 2014 can charge at 4C while regen or 5c while in Mountain mode witch use the onboard 55kw generator to keep it to 50% SOC is probably due to liquid cooling...
If Zero would allow their Farasis cells to charge at higher C rate and keep battery life reasonable they would need to implement active cooling witch would make these larger and reduce the Wh/L and Wh/kg..
This wold also be opposite to the mentality that zero want to keep witch is "make it simple" ( use air cooling etc..)
Or.. that zero would work in the next years on a ultra low internal resistance battery and no more need to bother with battery heat.. and then open possibility to 3-4C charging ...
Maybe Luke could inform us on that if and when it happen...
Doc
-
I didn't know there was a titling protocol. Actually, the object of this thread is not as narrow as just SAE Combo charging. I'm hoping to develop an understanding of where we are with DC charging currently and what issues need to be overcome to make it an accessible feature. .... How about a title of "DC Charging Options"? Is changing the title as simple as editing the first post?
Done.
Use "Report post to moderator" link and explain what you would like the thread titles changed to. Each post can have its own different title within the same topic. Moderator can help change all titles within the topic. Thanks for contributing!
Thanks to both! I'll explain that I'm very behind on checking on forum threads and am just asking for assistance with thread titles so I know where to pay attention. Glad all this conversation is happening and easy to work out.
-
I think we are *very* rapidly hitting the point where Zero needs to seriously think about their bikes charging strategy.
As Terry has ably demonstrated, its no longer that hard to put together a 35kWh bike. At that point the 1.3kw charger on the bike is almost pointless, heck even on a 20kWh bike the 1.3kw charger is just dead weight as it's never going to charge the bike in a reasonable time frame. At the very bare minimum Zero seriously needs to put at least a 3kW charger on the bikes as standard.
-
While I agree with Justin's overall point that Zero needs to re-evaluate their charging strategy, I disagree that the onboard 1.3kW charger is past its prime. Even if we did all have the battery capacity Terry's got, it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up and be ready to commute again the next day. Just because you have several dozen kWh of capacity doesn't mean you're going to use it all every day.
-
...it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up...
There's little difference between having L2 charging standard and only L1 charging than the cost, and a slightly more robust (bulky) cable or adapter. For Zero MC one bike one world methodology this could be satisifed with an accessory inlet or adapter. It's currently not just as simple as plugging in since that kettle cord is needed and it's famously prone to melting with frequent use.
The development timeline on Zero MC charging tech does seems to lag far behind what is possible to achieve for a comparable supply cost. Must be a tight budget...
-
While I agree with Justin's overall point that Zero needs to re-evaluate their charging strategy, I disagree that the onboard 1.3kW charger is past its prime. Even if we did all have the battery capacity Terry's got, it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up and be ready to commute again the next day. Just because you have several dozen kWh of capacity doesn't mean you're going to use it all every day.
Ideally, we would have a 3kw or higher charger that would drop to the amp limit of a wall socket when plugged into one.
In an ideal motorcycle, the limitation for charging would be the power available for input. not the charger or the battery.
-
...it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up...
There's little difference between having L2 charging standard and only L1 charging than the cost, and a slightly more robust (bulky) cable or adapter. For Zero MC one bike one world methodology this could be satisifed with an accessory inlet or adapter. It's currently not just as simple as plugging in since that kettle cord is needed and it's famously prone to melting with frequent use.
The development timeline on Zero MC charging tech does seems to lag far behind what is possible to achieve for a comparable supply cost. Must be a tight budget...
Since most L2 charging units have smart enough firmware to automatically use half the power in the range of 110V (like the Elcon PFC 2500 and probably the SuperCharger given custom setup), I think the issue is getting a reliable vehicle-rated unit that is lightweight and compatibly-shaped. The Charge Tank for example is very clearly some kind of compromise at the end of what must have been a long and frustrating process. Everything I've overheard indicates that they intended to ship a more powerful product.
I think there was an earlier comment about how the Calex development effort must have cost a significant amount and now it's a sunk cost on an investment that had a higher failure/return rate than desired.
That said, Zero from all accounts has been very risk-averse over the years.
Ideally, we would have a 3kw or higher charger that would drop to the amp limit of a wall socket when plugged into one.
In an ideal motorcycle, the limitation for charging would be the power available for input. not the charger or the battery.
Agreed about scaling down for 110V. It's just that the simplest widely-available signaling for power available is the J1772 signal, so most of these setups really need to hardcode 11-13A for 110V to avoid damaging surprisingly-varying household breakers. (Reminder of how poorly-setup some houses are: at my previous rented house, I had plug fuses and wiring old enough to likely be aluminum at my last house, and had to schedule EV charging around my housemate's electrical usage.)
-
How big is Teslas ~16kW charger? I think something like that would be a good option if Zero can't/won't support DC charging. Maybe the older 11kW units would suffice? I think about 1 hour from approximately 0-80% is the maximum amount of time that could be considered usable (semi-)quick charging.
I'm very disappointed in Zero when it comes to charging, basically 0 development in how many years (IMO charge tank can't be considered usable for trips)? IMO quick charging is what's needed for electric transportation to become mainstream (in addition to sufficient range, IMO Zero has fairly sufficient range now, if they offered quick charging).
-
How big is Teslas ~16kW charger? I think something like that would be a good option if Zero can't/won't support DC charging. Maybe the older 11kW units would suffice? I think about 1 hour from approximately 0-80% is the maximum amount of time that could be considered usable (semi-)quick charging.
I'm very disappointed in Zero when it comes to charging, basically 0 development in how many years (IMO charge tank can't be considered usable for trips)? IMO quick charging is what's needed for electric transportation to become mainstream (in addition to sufficient range, IMO Zero has fairly sufficient range now, if they offered quick charging).
except the voltage of the tesla is three and a half times too high.
-
You can easily get 11.2 kw from a Tesla station and it fits right in your tank.
-
As Terry has ably demonstrated, its no longer that hard to put together a 35kWh bike. ...
Let's not underestimate Terry's accomplishment.
-
You can easily get 11.2 kw from a Tesla station and it fits right in your tank.
Let's not underestimate the cooling challenge of putting 3 diginow SCv2 units under the factory tank plastics.
So far everyone who's done it has required significant tank modifications for ventilation.
2 units, EC's solution is perfect, under tank area remains cool, fans exhaust hot air through the triple fork. Third unit, still a challenge. Ideally it would be ducted to the front as well, but so far all the installs I've seen, people are perforating the tank plastics to get the air out.
(My own 3-unit tank setup works great, but it doesn't count for this claim, I'm not trying to keep my bike looking stock, I've got an ebay CBR600R tank cover)
-
As Terry has ably demonstrated, its no longer that hard to put together a 35kWh bike. ...
Let's not underestimate Terry's accomplishment.
I'm not, but Terry, and Brandon are forging the path that means the engineering is getting easier for the rest of us, for example remember the days when you had to hand solder Meanwell stacks together.
-
The SCv2 units accept DC at their AC input . i'm not sure if they accept as high as the lowest voltage a Tesla supercharger can do but it would be cool to Dc supply our SCv2 with Tesla supercharging DC station.
In theory AC (rms) power is the same voltage as DC so let say the Ac input of a SCv2 can take up to 250VAC.. that would mean it can also take 250VDC input too...
I think the level 3 chargers usually can go as low as 200 or 250Vdc... so if someone have the interface that can talk /activate these level 3 charge stations we could use as many SCv2 as we want up to 50kW or 135kW 8)
Doc
-
The SCv2 units accept DC at their AC input . i'm not sure if they accept as high as the lowest voltage a Tesla supercharger can do but it would be cool to Dc supply our SCv2 with Tesla supercharging DC station.
In theory AC (rms) power is the same voltage as DC so let say the Ac input of a SCv2 can take up to 250VAC.. that would mean it can also take 250VDC input too...
I think the level 3 chargers usually can go as low as 200 or 250Vdc... so if someone have the interface that can talk /activate these level 3 charge stations we could use as many SCv2 as we want up to 50kW or 135kW 8)
Doc
We have tested to 350v DC with success.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
We have tested to 350v DC with success.
I'm drooling.
-
It looks like my wallet will be in dire jeopardy in the near future.
-
The SCv2 units accept DC at their AC input . i'm not sure if they accept as high as the lowest voltage a Tesla supercharger can do but it would be cool to Dc supply our SCv2 with Tesla supercharging DC station.
In theory AC (rms) power is the same voltage as DC so let say the Ac input of a SCv2 can take up to 250VAC.. that would mean it can also take 250VDC input too...
I think the level 3 chargers usually can go as low as 200 or 250Vdc... so if someone have the interface that can talk /activate these level 3 charge stations we could use as many SCv2 as we want up to 50kW or 135kW 8)
Doc
We have tested to 350v DC with success.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Wow so the rectifier caps inside are probably rated 400 or 450Vdc ?
-
You think Tesla uses capacitors? : - )
-
I keep being surprised at places where Chademo makes sense for people.
One owner of an older Zero says that in her neighborhood, the J-plugs are always occupied and that the Chademo are available, so she would use her Zero a lot more if it had Chademo available. Even if it was at a lower charge rate.
A New Zealander tells me that Chademo and Mennekes are the dominant connectors in his area, with Chademo being a lot more available and J-plugs being present but fairly rare.
-
It varies pretty widely by country, but it sure does seem like Chademo is a technology in its decline, at least here in the States. I love the concept of DC charging (let's get the charger off the vehicle and into the stationary equipment, where it belongs), but it just doesn't seem like there's a lot of good options for us at the moment. Chademo would still work for us, but I think that tree was poisoned early by non-conforming equipment, and it doesn't seem like there are a lot of new installs these days either. Big, awkward connector, too.
I'd love to tap into the Tesla supercharger network, but I don't think that network is really suitable for us, since it's designed for a vehicle with 200+ mile range. It's sure impressive how much power they can push through a relatively small, manageable connector, though! I doubt Tesla would be willing to work with us on our "serious amateur" level, either.
CCS DC charging (or combined) looks like a good possibility coming up. It seems like the standards are reasonably well obeyed if not enforced, so it should be reliable station to station, seems like it would accommodate our voltage/current requirements, and it seems like installs are gaining steam here in the States...it's already common in Europe. Has anybody checked into the CCS DC protocol? My guess is it's fairly complicated, but is the protocol under license or open source?
-
Closed, based on Homeplug style ethernet over powerline
-
Yes CHAdeMO is easier since it's a simple canbus.
I keep being surprised at places where Chademo makes sense for people.
One owner of an older Zero says that in her neighborhood, the J-plugs are always occupied and that the Chademo are available, so she would use her Zero a lot more if it had Chademo available. Even if it was at a lower charge rate.
A New Zealander tells me that Chademo and Mennekes are the dominant connectors in his area, with Chademo being a lot more available and J-plugs being present but fairly rare.
Apart from a few super rare pre-2009 plugs that are grandfathered in you will never see J-plugs and Mennekes together.
-
So is there a source for the optional Chademo system Zero offered in 2013?
-
We got recently our tesla superchargers and the good new is that these can do as low as 50Volts DC output !!
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/22197491_10210171438938497_701096859_o.jpg?oh=430fed7849ab18799d12257e2c98b1a5&oe=59D18FF5)
Doc
-
OK, so sniff us some signalling : - )
-
So is there a source for the optional Chademo system Zero offered in 2013?
No it's a third party.
-
I read a while back that the superchargers are(were) simply a stack of ten of the chargers the cars have(had) built in, in parallel. CC/CV mode chargers could do that easily, with no mods. Is that still true?
-
I read a while back that the superchargers are(were) simply a stack of ten of the chargers the cars have(had) built in, in parallel. CC/CV mode chargers could do that easily, with no mods. Is that still true?
Possible.. I saw few 50kW Chademo charge stations that also was using few 12kw charge units all in parallel.
Doc
-
Just so I correctly understand what's been presented, say you have an SCv2 which is compatible with both level 2 AC and level 3 DC, you would have separate plugs for each feeding into the same charger. In one case you would have a Chademo socket for DC and a J-plug socket for AC. In the other case you'd just have a CCS combo socket and the charger would work out what juice is coming in. If so, that only leaves the hurdle of communication between charging station and SCv2. Please don't bust my chops too hard over the word "only". It simply indicates that all the other technical hurdles have been overcome, even if the individual components haven't been woven together yet.
-
That's how I read it, yes.
-
There is one other hurdle, sourcing the inlet.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
There is one other hurdle, sourcing the inlet.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Do you mean availability or cost? I found this one http://tucsonev.com/chademo.html (http://tucsonev.com/chademo.html) with a little Google-fu.
-
Is there any reason (other than outlet cost) that you couldn't put a CCS combo outlet instead of a J-plug outlet on your SCv2 (new install) in anticipation of the bike to DC station communication issue being solved? You'd be able to use a standard level 2 J-plug today and still be ready for future level 3 usage, Right?
-
Great idea, CCS Type 1 as an option for the US and CCS Type 2 option for the EU would be very nice..
-
There is one other hurdle, sourcing the inlet.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
EC, Is it difficult to find a CCS inlet or is it just much more expensive?
-
Is there any reason (other than outlet cost) that you couldn't put a CCS combo outlet instead of a J-plug outlet on your SCv2 (new install) in anticipation of the bike to DC station communication issue being solved? You'd be able to use a standard level 2 J-plug today and still be ready for future level 3 usage, Right?
CCS Combo inlet instead of vanilla J1772 is a cool idea. Leaves room for expansion : - )
On the other hand, CCS Combo signalling is proprietary Ethernet-over-power, it may be more difficult to reverse engineer than chademo, which has canbus signalling.
-
Togo,
I admit it's a small financial gamble that the CCS communication issue may never be solved. But I've been lurking on this forum for nearly a year and have seen some impressive innovations come about. Even if the solution doesn't come, I can still use it as a J-plug every day. BTW, does anyone know the price difference between the 2 inlets?
-
I am totally with you, and I have no idea.
J1772 inlets are fairly easy to find, and CCS Combo seem to be much harder to price.
-
Wow, maybe not.
http://evtv.me/2016/04/hitting-cylinders-electric-automobile/
"obsolete-on-introduction frankenplug (SAE Combo at a miserly 90kw)"
-
Wow, maybe not.
http://evtv.me/2016/04/hitting-cylinders-electric-automobile/
"obsolete-on-introduction frankenplug (SAE Combo at a miserly 90kw)"
* written by a Tesla fanboy a year ago*
His prediction of CCS becoming obsolete isn't going to happen in the next 5 years. I just don't see a wholesale DC charging infrastructure overhaul across the entire US anytime soon. By the time that happens I'll have a new Zero and probably looking for another replacement for the still stock 1.3kw level 1 charger Zero will continue to use with their new 25kw/h battery pack. ;-)
-
Yeah, those are fair points. Looks like CCS will be able to go to 350kw soon. That's 3.5C for a 100kwh car, the highest capacity on the road right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
-
It's important to know that those 350 kW will only be reached with battery voltages of 800V or higher. Same as i.e. the Tesla Superchargers, the CCS plugs are current limited. Depending on the manufacturer and source they currently talk about 200-300A of current. So on 400V, they will no be able to deliver more than Tesla already does.
And most importantly, as you already noted, the cars capable of actually taking that much power are still to be announced ;-)
-
I am totally with you, and I have no idea.
J1772 inlets are fairly easy to find, and CCS Combo seem to be much harder to price.
A CCS inlet is about €1300-1400.
-
As I understand it they had developed a product, found it didn't work on
enough of the stations tested that it would be frustrating and expensive
to sell and support. At the time. For the sample of stations available at
the time.
But I don't really know the whole story, that's just what I pieced together.
Yes, I know, not a conspiracy, but you know, you set it up with an East Coast
West Coast kind of comment.
Workaround to the 200v minimum would be, if you have a AC charger that
also works on DC, to run it through that.
In other words, tell the station that you require within the range they can do that
overlaps what the charger can handle, say, 240VDC and use that to run the charger
at a rate limited to what it can do and what your battery can handle.
For example, I'd expect that my diginow SCv2 9.9kw system would (if compatible
with DC, which I have yet to test), be able to take 240VDC to charge my battery at
1C, i.e. 9.9kw, up to 116.5VDC.
So if that's true, then the missing piece is the signalling to tell the station that a vehicle
is present, and that the vehicle is ready to charge at 240VDC.
And the inlet itself.
I Think that’s the way to go.
Then you have the option for both ccs and type 2 charging. But there isn’t any real benefit from the ccs charging, when the ac charging is just as fast.
If any body builds something, I would love to test it. We have our own 50kw ccs and chademo charger, and we can set it to go as low as 50vdc. And I have a zero, we can use for testing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I am totally with you, and I have no idea.
J1772 inlets are fairly easy to find, and CCS Combo seem to be much harder to price.
A CCS inlet is about €1300-1400.
You can get them from the BMW I3.
I got ahold of two, with the wrong wire color for about 120€. But I don’t know if I can get more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I am totally with you, and I have no idea.
J1772 inlets are fairly easy to find, and CCS Combo seem to be much harder to price.
A CCS inlet is about €1300-1400.
You can get them from the BMW I3.
I got ahold of two, with the wrong wire color for about 120€. But I don’t know if I can get more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Duh, why didn't I think of that. Hat tip to motornissen.
-
It's important to know that those 350 kW will only be reached with battery voltages of 800V or higher. Same as i.e. the Tesla Superchargers, the CCS plugs are current limited. Depending on the manufacturer and source they currently talk about 200-300A of current. So on 400V, they will no be able to deliver more than Tesla already does.
And most importantly, as you already noted, the cars capable of actually taking that much power are still to be announced ;-)
CCS will become the new standard in Europe, and the 350kw charge stations is as far as I know a demand from manufacturers.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Agreed Tony and Motornissen, this makes the most sense. Zero is not going to go to the 300v range any time soon if ever, and many CCS stations only work (for now) between 300 and 450 volts DC. Trouble is I think that would be over the max input voltage range of the chargers unless you combine 2 chargers in series on the input side, tell the station you want the full 450 volts and get 225 vdc as input per charger. Wow then you can also parallel chargers this way to get more amps out of the station.
For right now, you can source enough power using 2 J plugs to max the 1 C charge limit out of a Zero, or just 1 Tesla destination charger. In fact the Tesla destination charger is just a good to us as the CCS or CHAdeMO but there are 700% more of them out there. So if the 1C limit were ever to go to 2C you could still charge with 2 Tesla plugs, but then it might make sense to figure this out. For now using the DC charging network to try to charge a Zero doesn't make much sense when there are so many better options.
Again I wish the fast charging police would come in and force all the stations to go down to 50 volts, but because of the desire to reduce cost of the stations, making them only run 300-450 volts must have been a consideration and property owners have the ability to buy the lowest cost DC chargers which are probably not ones that go to 50 volts.
Because one day it would be nice to charge without having to carry the chargers onboard, but this past year with the Diginow superchargers now being so small, carrying 1C of charging on any Zero is not impossible anymore. And that's the best you could get anyway!
-
My only fear in buying a set up for Tesla stations is if Elon Musk gets his panties in a wad over a bunch of scruffy Zero riders making his high brow customers uncomfortable hanging around "their" chargers, he clicks a few keys and poof, no more access for those scruffy Zero riders. Then what?
-
My only fear in buying a set up for Tesla stations is if Elon Musk gets his panties in a wad over a bunch of scruffy Zero riders making his high brow customers uncomfortable hanging around "their" chargers, he clicks a few keys and poof, no more access for those scruffy Zero riders. Then what?
Good thing a few of those scruffy riders own Teslas and Zeros and know how to use Twitter. ;D
-
My only fear in buying a set up for Tesla stations is if Elon Musk gets his panties in a wad over a bunch of scruffy Zero riders making his high brow customers uncomfortable hanging around "their" chargers, he clicks a few keys and poof, no more access for those scruffy Zero riders. Then what?
Destination chargers are owned by businesses, not Tesla. Also, there's no way for Tesla to remotely turn off destination chargers as that feature doesn't exist on them.
-
My only fear in buying a set up for Tesla stations is if Elon Musk gets his panties in a wad over a bunch of scruffy Zero riders making his high brow customers uncomfortable hanging around "their" chargers, he clicks a few keys and poof, no more access for those scruffy Zero riders. Then what?
Destination chargers are owned by businesses, not Tesla. Also, there's no way for Tesla to remotely turn off destination chargers as that feature doesn't exist on them.
Do you ever run into the issue of the business (mostly upscale hotels around here) not allowing you to use their charger unless you're a registered guest?
-
CCS and Chademo both go from 200-500 v on almost all stations. And average from 50-150A mostly 100A. I'm sitting at one in my leaf now doing 100A. With the SCv2 we can do 128A at far more places, 2 jplugs or 1 Tesla plug. The CCS and Chademo stations are always busy, and there just are not enough of them. If I didn't lease my leaf, I would already have SCv2 on it so I could charge faster. As it stands, I can travel much faster from LA to SF on my bike than my leaf because there are not enough chademos to make the trip in the leaf. I must use jplugs because there is no other option. Which means on your Zero you would need to spend the night using your onboard if you only had Chademo. And charge slower than you could with an SCv2 the whole trip. Seems like a silly choice all around.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
Is there a J-plug to tesla adapter to use in case you find the next tesla station is out of range? From my home to either Chicago or New Orleans (2 of my fav destinations) there is a dead zone of about 150-200 miles. I think I've read about a 14-50 to tesla adapter for RV parks.
-
CCS and Chademo both go from 200-500 v on almost all stations. And average from 50-150A mostly 100A. I'm sitting at one in my leaf now doing 100A. With the SCv2 we can do 128A at far more places, 2 jplugs or 1 Tesla plug. The CCS and Chademo stations are always busy, and there just are not enough of them. If I didn't lease my leaf, I would already have SCv2 on it so I could charge faster. As it stands, I can travel much faster from LA to SF on my bike than my leaf because there are not enough chademos to make the trip in the leaf. I must use jplugs because there is no other option. Which means on your Zero you would need to spend the night using your onboard if you only had Chademo. And charge slower than you could with an SCv2 the whole trip. Seems like a silly choice all around.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I'm just wondering, are the Tesla destination chargers in North America 3-phase(capable)? Because they do offer a 3-phase 22kW charger.
On charging your Leaf, do you mean connection the SCv2 directly to the controller/pack? You could wire a chademo plug to your supercharger like this:
(http://www.electway-store.com/images/6-12kW%20mobile%20fast%20charger%20catalogue.jpg)
But with a SCV2 in the middle of course.
Is there a J-plug to tesla adapter to use in case you find the next tesla station is out of range? From my home to either Chicago or New Orleans (2 of my fav destinations) there is a dead zone of about 150-200 miles. I think I've read about a 14-50 to tesla adapter for RV parks.
You can just use the Tesla mobile connector for that:
(https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/charging/na_mobile_connector.jpg)
-
Is there a J-plug to tesla adapter to use in case you find the next tesla station is out of range? From my home to either Chicago or New Orleans (2 of my fav destinations) there is a dead zone of about 150-200 miles. I think I've read about a 14-50 to tesla adapter for RV parks.
Yes. Zak Vetter showed me the one that came with his mom's Model X, and I went and bought one right away. You can get them for $125 on eBay or cheaper directly from tesla. They are awesome, smaller than a can of soda.
-
J1772 to Tesla adapter:
https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-s_x_3-sae-j1772-charging-adapter.html?sku=1067348-00-A
You don't need to own a Tesla to buy one!
-
Do you ever run into the issue of the business (mostly upscale hotels around here) not allowing you to use their charger unless you're a registered guest?
Most places that have a Tesla charger also have a restaurant when you can spend your money. They are happy to take it.
-
Do you ever run into the issue of the business (mostly upscale hotels around here) not allowing you to use their charger unless you're a registered guest?
Most places that have a Tesla charger also have a restaurant when you can spend your money. They are happy to take it.
If I ate something every 100 miles of a road trip, I's soon exceed the GVW of the bike. ;)
-
I am totally with you, and I have no idea.
J1772 inlets are fairly easy to find, and CCS Combo seem to be much harder to price.
A CCS inlet is about €1300-1400.
You can get them from the BMW I3.
I got ahold of two, with the wrong wire color for about 120€. But I don’t know if I can get more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ah using scrapped I3's is a smart move. Is the whole CCS IP over plug thingamajig actually open source?
-
How many SCv2 modules (plus OEM charger) can be run with 1 Tesla plug?
-
Tesla plugs are typically up to 18kw according to the tesla map.
For example, https://www.tesla.com/findus/location/charger/dc33080
18 divided by 3.3 is 5.45, so you could run 5 diginow units at full tilt from one.
That's 16.5kw, so you could expect any Zero under 16.5kwh total *nominal* capacity to disconnect itself if you try that (the 1C limit).
Some Tesla plugs are lower capacity, I've seen as low as 6kw. (I don't put those stations on the touring metamap unless they are the only game in town.)
-
How many SCv2 modules (plus OEM charger) can be run with 1 Tesla plug?
You can charge with 5 from a single 16 kW (underrated) Tesla plug at 16.5 kW
-
(I don't put those stations on the touring metamap unless they are the only game in town.)
It might be handy to do that for when the beefier charger is occupied.
-
> > (I don't put those stations on the touring metamap unless they are the only game in town.)
> It might be handy to do that for when the beefier charger is occupied.
That's what plugshare is for. To show you *all* the stations.
The e-touring metamap is not intended to replace tools like plugshare-- it's intended to reduce clutter, help you find the best stations to try first. The goal is to have no more than 2-3 stations in each neighborhood or town.
-
> If I ate something every 100 miles of a road trip, I's soon exceed the GVW of the bike. ;)
Espresso doppio counts : - )
-
Last week I rented an Energica bike. It was incredible.
It has a combined CCS inlet. I charged it 5 times, always taking between 15 and 25 minutes (starting from between 30%-50% and charging to 95-100%) at 15 kW!
Very clear: that's the future!! This is (for me) the major selling point. I love my zero, but this makes me think about switching. (Energica is, however, rather expensive, and I don't like the noise it makes.)
And yes, it can also charge from AC, but only with up to 13 Amps (so about 3 kW).
-
Neuer_User,
Couldn't agree more! And the future is now! There is a thread here about the 250 mile club. I have done that with my Zero SR and while clearly possible, it makes for a long day. A few weeks ago I rode my Eva about 277 miles in one day and it was not a big deal at all. That meant roughly 6 hours of riding and about 2 hours of charging. Charging times varied, 20-30 minutes. And what is even nicer is that the CCS system is built into the motorcycle, no additional chargers in side cases or top boxes. And what is sad is Zero had developed a DCFC for the Zero back in 2014. I had one on order for about 6 months for my SR before Zero canceled the order. But it didn't work with all systems and rather than work the bugs out of it Zero just gave up. Worst yet the systems that it did work well with were the kind of systems near me and that I would be using most of the time.
For all of these years Zero has had no real competition and as a result, could take their time on developing new features. Now with Energica on the market Zero has serious competition. For those who want to put serious mileage a day on an electric motorcycle, Energica is the only game in town. Want serious regen and one control riding? I rarely use my brakes when using the high regen setting on my Eva. Roll on the throttle to go, roll off to brake. When I go back to my SR it is hard to tell there is even any regen at all. Again, this is another area where Energica is far ahead of Zero. No question about it, competition is good for customers and if Energica forces Zero to innovate faster we all benefit.
-
Do you by chance know what battery voltage the Energica is running on? Also somewhere on 100V or do they use a >200 V battery?
-
About 300V.
-
About 300V.
That probably makes it easier for them then. What I find incredible is that the standard configuration of the bike already includes AC (3kW) and DC (15 kW) fast charging. As the price of the bike is here about 20% more than a current SR with charge tank, considering the much higher quality components used on the bike, it is actually much better value for money then the zero. [emoji50]
Anyway, let's hope for new development by either Zero or even the entry of some more brand producers into this market. Then this fast charging will become default for us one day.
The feeling is just completely different, if you're able to recharge in half an hour at so many places around. It really takes off any big fears.
I am planning for a 600 km trip in June and am already planning for four charge stops. But each of them will take me 2-3h (with my self built '"fast"' charging solution). So that makes that a two days trip already. With charging only 30min, I would have tried to do it on one day.
-
This make me think more and more about another solution for being able to use the DC level 3 charging on the 102V Zero :
BUCK CONVERTER!
How big would it need to be for a 13kW 400Vdc in 102Vdc out BUCK CONVERTER? ( a kind of “serie†DC-Dc)
It seem that it would only need a big coil caps and few discret components…. but would be smaller than our actual AC-Dc solutions
Maybe it really worth… ???
Doc
-
This make me think more and more about another solution for being able to use the DC level 3 charging on the 102V Zero :
BUCK CONVERTER!
...
Maybe it really worth… ???
Doc
What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and some Controller ...
Gesendet von meinem S60 mit Tapatalk
-
What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and some Controller ...
Keep in mind your "big switch" would need to be able to handle the maximum current, just like the main contactor does. That's well over 600 amps at full throttle. Big switch indeed.
I don't remember whether it was Tesla's "insane mode", "ludicrous mode" or whichever, but I remember one of them primarily consisted of the introduction of a higher-current contactor, which had been the bottleneck. They wound up making the spring out of Inconel, which can tolerate much higher temperatures before it loses its springiness than steel can.
Making mechanical OR electrical switches at these current levels is no joke.
-
What about switching 4 Packs from parallel to in series and charge with DC directly ?
Needs a big switch and some Controller ...
Keep in mind your "big switch" would need to be able to handle the maximum current, just like the main contactor does. That's well over 600 amps at full throttle. Big switch indeed.
...
Making mechanical OR electrical switches at these current levels is no joke.
True, but needs switching only with power off, a Kind of recabling which could be done more easily, but still a challenge... But maybe less than a buck converter...
Gesendet von meinem S60 mit Tapatalk
-
I had to look. "Big switch" is an extreme understatement. Connecting four batteries in series or parallel to a charger or load needs a 4PDT switch. Here's a catalog http://www.filnor.com/pdf/Knife-Switch-Catalog-Full.pdf A four pole double throw 600 amp 600vdc switch is in their standard line, in fact they have a few choices. However the weight of the "smallest" one is 65 pounds! That's the D-9746 on page 19. The base plate is 28 by 16 inches. You would also need another contactor to make sure there was no charger power while switching. And of course an enclosure for the whole thing. ::)
-
switching parallel serie is simply Not reliable and safe ans cheap.
A couple years ago i have used that principle with my 2nd electric bicycle made of 18650 cells. it was in 2008.
The bike was charging at 12s ( 44.4V) and used at 24s(88.8V) to power the motor.
I had 4 DIY brick of each having 6 serie of 18p group of cells.
I was connecting twice 2x 6s as a single 12s18p module that i connected in parallel or serie.
I also ysed a 4PDT switch but it filed.. So i have used 3 of the TYCO contactor Ev200 rated 500A each.
I also used a old style blade switch to make sore both contactor conditions can not happen which would create a big short circuit!!
That bike was the first to get 210km range without pedaling with 2.3kWh of salvaged cells from makita Li-Ion packs
(http://www.evalbum.com/img/1947/1947i.jpg)
(http://www.evalbum.com/img/1947/1947c.jpg)
(http://www.evalbum.com/img/1947/1947b.jpg)
(http://www.evalbum.com/img/1947/1947h.jpg)
(http://www.evalbum.com/img/1947/1947d.jpg)
Doc
-
I have to agree with most of the things said. I have also ridden both Ego and Eva, technically and performance wise they are definitely superior. But they are really lacking a good handling and are way too heavy., that’s why currently I wouldn’t want to swap it with my Zero. But if that’s solved there’s not much to worry about anymore.
DC fast charging is a game changer and there’s no doubt that it’s the future. Currently the availability of DC stations in Germany is still limited compared to AC of up to 22kW, but that’s changing very quickly. Taking a look at the Netherlands, it’s already solved with networks like Fastned.
I’m pretty sure that not too far from now we will see bikes with batteries around 25 kWh and charging capacities of up to 50 kW (at least on low SOC), the Energica already does up to 20 kW. Even with rectifier technologies improving there will be no way to archive such charge rates by carrying a big amount of AC chargers on the bike. It will waste too much space and weight and will produce tons of heat you need to get rid of.
Additionally it doesn’t make any sense from an economic perspective. “Shared†chargers in a charging station will distribute the cost way better than a single person buying all that charging power for using it just 20 times a year. The first Fastned charging stations have actually passed the operational break even.
If you ask me, every day Zero is waiting to switch to a high voltage system is a lost day. There’s no way around it. I hope we don’t have to wait too long.
-
There's something else I forgot to add which might be part of the reason why Zero had such difficulties to find a proper supplier for a new ChargeTank and why charging a 116V bike will be more difficult than a 400V bike.
All the research and development for vehicle chargers is currenty focused on high voltage applications, as the sales numbers will be way higher for those. Check i.e. the 22 kW charger from Brusa: Link (http://www.brusa.biz/en/products/charger/charger-400-v/nlg664.html)
The footprint is so small, it might even fit under the Zero in place of the onboard! But it's only available for either 400V or 700V, and I believe that won't change. Of course it's watercooled to get rid of the heat, but that's also something Zero will have to add sooner or later.
And from Eltek (their automotive line now belongs to Siemens Valeo) I know that they discontinued their 120V IP67 charger, because demand was too low and they are focussing on 400V now. It was stock i.e. on the Brammo Empulse and had 3 kW in a size smaller than the current onboard charger. Siemens Valeo just presented a new one, but of course it's 400V.
-
Lenny,
The specs for CHAdeMO charging allow for voltages as low as 50 volts to be charged. So in theory it should be no problem to have CHAdeMO systems on a Zero. Zero claimed the some CHAdeMO systems did not follow the specs and would not charge a Zero. You can download the installation manual for an Eaton DCFC systems and there is no mechanism for adjusting the charging voltage, only the wattage. There were several models of CHAdeMO systems that worked well with the DCFC system Zero designed. Unfortunately for those of us on the east coast most of the systems we have out here were the ones that worked with the Zero system. Zero just couldn't see past the state of California and canceled the development of a DCFC system. The more I use CCS charging on my Eva the less likely I will ever take my Zero out with my Elcons chargers again. 20-30 minute charging sure beats 1 1/2- 2hour charging.