ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Doctorbass on June 30, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
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Hey guys, i'm" proud" to be in teh 0020 BMS Isolation Fault !! :-\ ;)
The bike: My brand new 2017 SR with powertank!!
No rain, did not washed the bike yet.. .. it only hapenned after the bike sitted for 2 hours on teh parking of a friend we visited me and my wife tonight. There was some moisture on the seat as well as during the evening when the sun is down... but nothing more..
Everything work fine.. except that the red triangle flash in the dash... It accept charging too...
I know BMS and electronic.. and alread read multiple thread here about that famous error 0020 and 0028...
But what is the final solution?.. well in average?... clear teh code and hope that it does nopt happen again? what is the most probable area /connnector etc where that low resistance is usually?
I have parked the bike in my garage for teh night where air is more dry... wel see tomorrow... the cell blalance is 5-6mV ( not perfect but not bad....
Yesterday when i got the bike at the dealer ( 250km from my home) the bike was in a trailer and we had intense rain during thunderstorm while i was driving the car at about 100kmh... I just hope that that simple/normal event woudl not affect too much the Zero... as it is 100% normal situation that a motorcycle must tolerate.. the Zero was straped in a trailer while driving and got some rain .. nothing more..
Doc
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Dman it!! as you knwo i have the diagnostic kit that the dealer have.. so i connected to the OBD!! and got the description:
That BMS isolation code error is described as:
Chassi Isolation Fault: 13kohms to cell 3 !!!!
Damn ! it look like it is even the BMS or the brick or monolith itself.. ::)
Bike is brand new! :(
But from now it is impossible to know if it is from the power tank or the Monolith...
Doc
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Ok now i get error 0020, 0028, 0044 and 0045!!
Please got no lemon for me!! :P
Ok ... 0044 and 0045 are normal but not 0020 and 0028:
44 Kill Switch Disable
45 Kickstand Switch Disable
Doc
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Well i dont know how to condider it as 13 kohms isolation problem....
think about it: at let say 3.8V nominal per cell it is about 292uA leak current at 13000ohms so it would take about 56 years to fully drain the 145Ah total pack if fully charged... but might get worst as electrical corrosion can take place?
Doc
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Ok now added to the list: 0029: BMS ISOLATION DANGER..
witch next? ::)
Doc
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Last update: Chassis Isolation DANGER: cell 3 droped from 13kohm to 2kohm! ( 1.9mA current leak)
Doc
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Damn... droped to 1 kohm... and then last error is 0 kohm...
not sure it is so low.. but it could be anywhwere between 999ohms and few ohms...
Doc
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Sorry to read that, really. I saw how much you were looking forward to the new bike.
How is the warrenty for a bike DOA? Do they exchange it? (I fear not...)
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I see chassis isolation faults all the time, but never that low. Also, my warning light does not come on...
Might give our Californian friends a call...
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My guess, doctor, is that it's got a lot to do with the trailer ride home. The only isolation error I've ever had on my 2014 DS was after I washed it. I was pretty careful too.
I've ridden my bike through very heavy rain and it has a pretty hard life as a commuter bike. All weather, all year.
My theory, and it is just a theory, is that the wind flow is different on your trailer. There will be all kinds of different eddie currents hitting your bike. They could have concentrated the rain into something similar to a jetwash spray that found its way into areas that would never get wet under normal riding.
My advice is to simply let the bike dry out as much as possible. Providing you aren't getting a massive cell imbalance, ride it in the dry as much as you can. Perhaps even drive it round on your trailer in the dry.
It may take a few days, but hopefully the water will leach out or evaporate from where it shouldn't be and everything will be fine.
Good luck!
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UPDATE.
Good morning guys.. well dependent on where you are on earth actually =))
I had a conversation with the battery designer yesterday. He said that the indication of the cell 3 for the isolation fault is not necessary related to one of teh cells in the battery bt more like an interpretation of the voltage level of the isolatino fault. he said that cell 3 mean about 12V witch could probably related to the 12V line somewhere. the cell 3 of all brick are all at the same voltage is at the level of 3 x the voltage of the cells witch is about 12V. It might be about the DC-DC connections near the aux port.
But he also suggested to disconnect the brown powertank connector and clear all possible water intrusion and see if i still get these errors.
The bike spent all the nigt in my dry garage with a 24" air blower at full speed directly pointing to all wiring with the seat removed.. but i stil get the errors but i havent not reset these yet.
I also have sent the full report thru the Zero apps to the Zero service.
I will keep you updated on that .
Oh btw the bike still charge and is now 100% ( was 42% yesterday night)
Doc
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OK i tried to reset teh BMS with each of the the 3 possibles combine ( Right button, watched if it clear the code: CODE 29 is cleared, Left button, Still code 20 and 28, Both at the same time: Still code 20 and 28
So the Danger Isolation fault level cleared during the night Good..
Now code 20 adn 28 to go.....
Doc
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Ok i connected the diagnostic tool and see actually that the famous "cell 3" isolation fault is now at 18kohm.. witch is good new
I will make a ride around here and hope that the hot wind will dry everything and get that resistance isolation to continu to go up
Doc
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Keep us updated Doc! I also have a powertank and sometimes would get a flashy dash after riding in the rain this past winter where it felt like it rained for 2 months straight. But it never kept the bike from charging or riding and would usually go away after a couple days to dry out. I would just assume water got in the powertank connector and like you said, formed a water bridge that could discharge the pack in 50 to 100 years if left like that so I never worried about it one bit. But let us know if it doesn't go away in a couple days! You need a Zero that is definitely perfect before you start adding your mods to it. I can only imagine what it will look like in 2 years lol
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I will make a ride around here and hope that the hot wind will dry everything and get that resistance isolation to continu to go up
Doc
[/quote]
You want some hot wind on it, bring it to Vegas. Going to be 110 degrees F here tomorrow, so, I guess around 43 of YOUR degrees.
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Ok yesterday i did another 110km ride and the only code i was seeing was 0020. the 0028 and 0029 was not.
But this morning after a full charge in teh garage it show 0020 and 0028 again.
Yesterday i removed the tank and seat and disconnected the powertank and have put back the loopback connector to reconvert it to only regular ZF13 and all code dissapeard.
So i have dryed all connector with hair dryer and added dielectric grease to the center pin block of both brown connectors of the ZF3.3 powertank adn also teh connector that connect to it. I was sure it would solve the problem..
But no.. i still get 0020 and 0028 and 0029... damn it!
I paid full price on a brand new Zero have one plug and play to not have to spend time to troubleshoot or diy everything... and have time to ride instead ...
Fortunatly it operate anyway... but i hate having to troubleshoot 2 days and 200km after i got it....
Doc
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That's definitely a frustrating situation for a new bike.
I suppose we should all express gratitude that Doctorbass can at least describe some knowledgeable troubleshooting approaches that we can learn from.
If we can figure out a safe, systematic way to troubleshoot and isolate various ground issues, I'll try to write it up as such.
Yesterday i removed the tank and seat and disconnected the powertank and have put back the loopback connector to reconvert it to only regular ZF13 and all code dissapeard.
Well, that's certainly a good troubleshooting step. Can you describe how to do it safely in detail?
So i have dryed all connector with hair dryer and added dielectric grease to the center pin block of both brown connectors of the ZF3.3 powertank adn also teh connector that connect to it. I was sure it would solve the problem..
But no.. i still get 0020 and 0028 and 0029... damn it!
Are the faults reading from the BMS#1 log, or via the MBB only when the Power Tank is connected? Does the fault happen if the cable is connected but not the Power Tank itself? (I'm not sure that makes sense but it seems possible.)
It's not much comfort that a Power Tank is under warrantee with a long distance to the dealer.
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Try running with just the loopback connector for now. I have done that too when I took the powertank out to use it as a template. It is possible the module itself has poor isolation perhaps. It would be interesting to check it with a different module. With a DMM if you check the outside diagonal pins on the 8 way connection in the middle of the Anderson pins you can find pack voltage. I would check voltage to the battery case from both pos and neg. if you have leakage, of course take the powertank back to the dealer. another short term solution that could help is to isolate the frame from touching the module. There is enough room that you could insulate the base tray, back wall and top front corner where the J hooks tighten down the angle bracket with some 1/8" PVC plastic which are the only places the module touches the bike aside from the connector itself. But best just to let the dealer deal with it.
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Thanks Terry for the tips ;)
UPDATE July 4 and odo showing now 530km on my 2017 SR!
Still have the 0020 and 0028 and 0029 error code but the entire motorcycle work 100% no prob. It charge and run just fine, except this red triangle christmas light flashing on the dash....
I contacted Zero to open a service call thru the Zero apps and this sent the log of the bike. I also contacted my Zero Dealer witch is 250km from home. I wanted to keep him updated.
As you all know I will probably have to solve the problem mylelf as i have the experience to do it and also have the zero diagnostic harness kit and software to diagnose. But i will need all the help from the Service dep at Zero as well !
I guess they have already meet that problem with other customer's Zero and there is a chance that they know exactly where to look at.
Fortunatly it work fine!.. I hust hate to know that there is about 10kohm isolatino problem somewhere waiting to be corrected and maybe that there is some slow corrosion build up in that area...
Doc
I will try what terry suggest and will comeback with results.
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Sad to read these problems. Personally I don't have this powertank, but I did had those Chassis Isolation errors also. I managed to get rid of them (almost for half a year now) completely. And I ride the bike even in heavy rain showers.
Here's what I did on the bottom of this post:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6679.msg53503#msg53503 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6679.msg53503#msg53503)
Hope this is of any help.
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UPDATE at 850km
PROBLEM FOUND!!! ( according to the zero diag flow chart)
I still have 0020, 0028 and 0029 Error.
The 0029 is called DANGEROUS
I followed the Zero flow chart to locate where the problem is. I used Teraterm and the level 2 acces to the BMS.
Here is a sumarry:
step 1: I first removed the powertank ( ZF3.3) to see if it could be that option that cause the error.
Result: Still have all 3 errors. Problem could not be related to rthe powertank then...
Step 2: key off the bike
step 3: connected my portable PC to the Monolith BMS using my Zero diagnostic harness. ( We must make sure the laptop is not connected to the 120V as it can caus some error in the isolation test)
step 4: login using the level 2 acces
step 5: type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm
step 6: did the test passed?
-Yes: continu the diagnostic
-No: Is this a SDS motorcycle?
-Yes: Disconnect M1, M2 and M3 and the motor sensor connector type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm
step 7: did the test pass?
Yes: replace the motor
No: Disconnect B+ and B- and the motor sensor connector and type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm
step 8: did the test pass?
Yes: replace the motor CONTROLLER
No: disconnect the charger output connector and the charge signal connector and type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm
step 9: did the test pass?
Yes: Relace the charger
NO: Battery isolation problem and need to be replaced.
For my case it is the Controller that have isolation fault. When i disconnect the battery + and - lead to the controller the test PASSED !
CONCLUSION: CONTROLLER IS IN PROBLEM OF ISOLATION ! ( well according to that flow chart...)
When i reconnected these the test failed...
I also tried to only connect the B+ or the B- on the controller and both make isolation problem!
I will contact Zero tech on monday. to share this with them.
All that story wold have cost hundred of dollars of time to my dealer..
fortunatly for him i have the skill to do that. But i woudl appreciate more that time to ride my Zero than to diagnose it brand new 2017....
Doc
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Here is the log of the isolation test before and after disconnecting the motor controller:
ZERO BMS> test isolation -v
Running test "isolation"...
Testing Chassis Isolation...
- ADC VREF calibration value: 2 mV. ( Actual VREF: 3002 mV )
- Raw Measured Voltage On : 83 mV
- Raw Measured Voltage Off : 0 mV
- Calibrated Voltage On : 3337 mV
- Calibrated Voltage Off : 0 mV
- Off lower current : 0 nA
- On upper current : 506445 nA
- On lower current : 16270 nA
- Equivalent Resistance To Cells (ohms):
+=====+================+================+================
Cell On Off Difference
+=====+================+================+================
00 6807 2147483647 2147476840
01 -826 2147483647 2147484473
02 -8456 2147483647 2147492103
03 -16084 2147483647 2147499731
04 -23718 2147483647 2147507365
05 -31352 2147483647 2147514999
06 -38988 2147483647 2147522635
07 -46620 2147483647 2147530267
08 -54254 2147483647 2147537901
09 -61890 2147483647 2147545537
10 -69520 2147483647 2147553167
11 -77152 2147483647 2147560799
12 -84786 2147483647 2147568433
13 -92424 2147483647 2147576071
14 -100054 2147483647 2147583701
15 -107681 2147483647 2147591328
16 -115313 2147483647 2147598960
17 -122952 2147483647 2147606599
18 -130588 2147483647 2147614235
19 -138226 2147483647 2147621873
20 -145860 2147483647 2147629507
21 -153500 2147483647 2147637147
22 -161134 2147483647 2147644781
23 -168770 2147483647 2147652417
24 -176400 2147483647 2147660047
25 -184036 2147483647 2147667683
26 -191672 2147483647 2147675319
27 -199310 2147483647 2147682957
28 -206944 2147483647 2147690591
- Minimum Passing R : 20000 ohms
- Cell with lowest R : 00
- R[00] On : 6807 ohms
- R[00] Off : 2147483647 ohms
- Isolation Resistance : 6807 ohms
- Isolation Resistance : 0,006,807 ohms
- ISOLATION LEVEL DANGEROUS!! RES BELOW 10000 OHMS
FAILED.
"Doc: Then disconnecting B+ and B- and the signal connectors on the controller"
ZERO BMS> test isolation -v
Running test "isolation"...
Testing Chassis Isolation...
- ADC VREF calibration value: 2 mV. ( Actual VREF: 3002 mV )
- Raw Measured Voltage On : 920 mV
- Raw Measured Voltage Off : 0 mV
- Calibrated Voltage On : 37038 mV
- Calibrated Voltage Off : 0 mV
- Off lower current : 0 nA
- On upper current : 337965 nA
- On lower current : 180585 nA
- Equivalent Resistance To Cells (ohms):
+=====+================+================+================
Cell On Off Difference
+=====+================+================+================
00 235341 2147483647 2147248306
01 211570 2147483647 2147272077
02 187800 2147483647 2147295847
03 164036 2147483647 2147319611
04 140259 2147483647 2147343388
05 116482 2147483647 2147367165
06 92699 2147483647 2147390948
07 68935 2147483647 2147414712
08 45151 2147483647 2147438496
09 21375 2147483647 2147462272
10 -2395 2147483647 2147486042
11 -26159 2147483647 2147509806
12 -49930 2147483647 2147533577
13 -73713 2147483647 2147557360
14 -97483 2147483647 2147581130
15 -121241 2147483647 2147604888
16 -145018 2147483647 2147628665
17 -168801 2147483647 2147652448
18 -192591 2147483647 2147676238
19 -216374 2147483647 2147700021
20 -240151 2147483647 2147723798
21 -263947 2147483647 2147747594
22 -287730 2147483647 2147771377
23 -311513 2147483647 2147795160
24 -335277 2147483647 2147818924
25 -359060 2147483647 2147842707
26 -382844 2147483647 2147866491
27 -406627 2147483647 2147890274
28 -430404 2147483647 2147914051
- Minimum Passing R : 20000 ohms
- Cell with lowest R : 00
- R[00] On : 235341 ohms
- R[00] Off : 2147483647 ohms
- Isolation Resistance : 235341 ohms
- Isolation Resistance : 0,235,341 ohms
- PASSED
PASSED.
Doc
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Ah, that's great that you can identify where something went wrong!
That description is very helpful, too, thank you! The test series makes a lot of sense. I assume each step requires up to a half hour to perform disconnects or reconnects safely. It'd be attractive if the connections could be safely directed by software commands, using the contactor and then CAN messages or other terminals to direct other components to manipulate their own disconnects.
Does the BMS serial terminal require anything more than the dealership cabling? Dealer software seems to be all Windows where drivers are often needed to deal with proprietary hardware arrangements.
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Ok some MORE update!
I have made videos, but before to show yu these i want to ask Zero if they agree with that as i'm using the dealer diag tools, then on monday probably i'll have the answers if i can post these public or not.
I made more test as the test i made in the video gave me different results again !!! ::)
CHECK THIS OUT!!:
Last test i made is to completly disconnect everything from the controller except to leave it bolted to the chassis, so M1,. M2 adn M3 and 35 pins are all disconnected. I tested the ohms resistance and discovered that I GET 5 ohms betwen M2 connection of the controller and the chassis ground of the Zero !!!!!!!
5 ohms!! it's like the phase 2 of the controller must radiate on the chassis alot of EMI under my butt when i crank the throttle and push 775A to it !!!! :o.. My Zero is now an big battery powered ANTENNA!!.. but mo goal is not to make any radio show but to ride it !!!
Controller isolation seem the problem.. and to diagnose it no need the Zero tool.. just need a DVM , patience and safety...
That kind of problem make me think that the isolation between one of the multiple mosfet and controller alumimum case inside and the aluminum heat sink must be compromized....
Doc
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Ok there is nothing cnofidential on the Part II so i can show you it... Part 1 will ne confirmed on monday!
https://youtu.be/RVLdxre53V4 (https://youtu.be/RVLdxre53V4)
Doc
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Okay, a DVM run through once de-energized could be described pretty easily. It would eliminate a number of conditions without proprietary diagnostic equipment.
It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.
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Okay, a DVM run through once de-energized could be described pretty easily. It would eliminate a number of conditions without proprietary diagnostic equipment.
It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.
Brian, i'm not sure if you know that i have mentionned the controlelr was not connected to any motor or anything else.. the only electrical path between the controller and teh rest of the Zero is the aluminum heatsink plate bolted to teh frame. The motor was not connected to it . I get infinite ohms between the motor phase and the chassis. It should have no electrical current circulating in the motor shaft , rotor or case... all the chassis is simply directl to one of the phase.
Doc
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I think that your dealer, Zero Corporation or a combination of the two should reward you with something more than just riding time.
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A word to wise. If you are poking around the high voltage wiring for any reason, be aware that there is stored charge of 100 volts or more around waiting to bite you, make arcs or worse. This is especially true of the motor and controller connections, but also the DC/DC, MBB and charger connectors.
I have found a way to discharge the bike that is quick, easy and works. A regular incandescent light bulb is of course rated for 120V and is low resistance and capable of quickly and safely discharging the wiring. A low wattage bulb will have a lower surge current while discharging. I find the best place to connect such a bulb is across the external charger contacts. No guarantees that doing that removes all of the hazards, but this method has worked well for me.
The Zero owners manual says don't touch the orange wires, good advice for sure.
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It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.
Brian, i'm not sure if you know that i have mentionned the controlelr was not connected to any motor or anything else.. the only electrical path between the controller and teh rest of the Zero is the aluminum heatsink plate bolted to teh frame. The motor was not connected to it . I get infinite ohms between the motor phase and the chassis. It should have no electrical current circulating in the motor shaft , rotor or case... all the chassis is simply directl to one of the phase.
Doc
Yes, I understand that and thanks for making it clear for everybody, but I don't think it eliminates the possibility of an asymmetrically applied field. What I'm suggesting is that while operating, the voltage applied to one phase could be affected by the altered frame ground state, even without a complete circuit.
I mean, my reasoning here is sketchy but I'm trying to understand risks.
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A word to wise. If you are poking around the high voltage wiring for any reason, be aware that there is stored charge of 100 volts or more around waiting to bite you, make arcs or worse. This is especially true of the motor and controller connections, but also the DC/DC, MBB and charger connectors.
I have found a way to discharge the bike that is quick, easy and works. A regular incandescent light bulb is of course rated for 120V and is low resistance and capable of quickly and safely discharging the wiring. A low wattage bulb will have a lower surge current while discharging. I find the best place to connect such a bulb is across the external charger contacts. No guarantees that doing that removes all of the hazards, but this method has worked well for me.
The Zero owners manual says don't touch the orange wires, good advice for sure.
Right. Various parts of the Zero have capacitor banks or capacitive qualities, so there's some energy that can give you more than a sting, potentially.
And if the state of the contactor is ever in question, the charge won't decay. Although the light bulb could be okay, using a digital voltmeter first never hurts.
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The light bulb will stay lit if the contactor is closed, you can light up your workshop with it. ;D And use a voltmeter after discharging just to be sure it worked.
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A word to wise. If you are poking around the high voltage wiring for any reason, be aware that there is stored charge of 100 volts or more around waiting to bite you, make arcs or worse. This is especially true of the motor and controller connections, but also the DC/DC, MBB and charger connectors.
I have found a way to discharge the bike that is quick, easy and works. A regular incandescent light bulb is of course rated for 120V and is low resistance and capable of quickly and safely discharging the wiring. A low wattage bulb will have a lower surge current while discharging. I find the best place to connect such a bulb is across the external charger contacts. No guarantees that doing that removes all of the hazards, but this method has worked well for me.
The Zero owners manual says don't touch the orange wires, good advice for sure.
Keith, Thanks for the advice, However i am aware of that as well i have the special Zero discharge tool witch is also a lightbulb and a charger plug... I am familar with electronic and caps stored energy as well as 100+V ebike setup.
100V can kill as well as 40V.. it all depend on various conditions... personally i have dry skin so toutching 100V is not painfull but anyway i'm making sure everything is discharged as well because it can also zap $$$ components...
Doc
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Keith, Thanks for the advice, However i am aware of that as well i have the special Zero discharge tool witch is also a lightbulb and a charger plug... I am familar with electronic and caps stored energy as well as 100+V ebike setup.
100V can kill as well as 40V.. it all depend on various conditions... personally i have dry skin so toutching 100V is not painfull but anyway i'm making sure everything is discharged as well because it can also zap $$$ components...
Doc
I think Keith has the same concern I have, which is to inform people who read this discussion, not you specifically.
Sometimes it's not clear enough what practices underly an experienced professionals recommendations, and the literal advice given might cause damage if performed without the right care or safety practices.
This is exactly why I think speculatively about danger and how to be extra safe. I'm never advising you, just imagining a 19 year old kid around complicated equipment and helping them navigate it safely. (I was this kid learning to run navy nuclear reactors and 4160V electrical distribution equipment once.)
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Yes, Brian is correct, my intention was to advise caution to others, and was not directed at the expert who started this thread. I am pleased to learn that the special Zero discharge tool uses the same method as my original idea of a good way to do it.
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Old thread but reading it - DoctorBass - did replacing the controller end up being the correct fix ?