ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: atldinan3 on June 12, 2017, 02:48:20 AM
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Interestingly enough, I went from an F800R (2011) to a Zero S. The Beemer was a great bike as it was agile, powerful, fairly comfortable​ and has ridiculously good gas mileage. I switched over to the Zero because it beat my F800R in all these metrics. I dare (maybe more like beg) anyone to find me a better highway commuter. The upfront cost on the Zero is obviously higher, but the BMW would prompt me for service once, maybe twice, per year. Road tripping was more simplistic with the BMW, but the parallel twin's vibration become more like buzzing at 70mph leaving my limbs numb within an hour. Not sure I'd ever be interested in going cross country with that. Charging options for the Zero are getting very attractive though.
As far as stocking Zero's go, the dealer closest to me mentions they only keep demo bikes on hand. Customers would have to place an order to be built and delivered from the factory (Scotts Valley, California). Or the dealer might sell you a demo bike if they're done with it. Of course that dealer you're seeing might have a different situation.
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When I bought my Zero I put down a $1000 deposit with my dealer (who closed a couple of years ago due to Yamaha franchise issues), they then ordered the bike and it was built by the factory and shipped to the dealer for sale. I think that process takes about 2 weeks. But things might have changed so you obviously need to check with the dealer for the current process. I might add that I am surprised to hear of a shop being open on a Monday. Around here most shops are closed on Sunday and Monday, probably due to the cost of keeping a small business open for 6 or 7 days a week.
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Hey AtlDinan! I'm glad you discovered the Zero and are looking into it before you pulled the trigger on the BMW. (Not that the F800R isn't a great bike, but the Zero is really a breed apart!)
And, since you're already an EV driver, you have a good understanding of the advantages and things to consider about the Zero vs an ICE bike.
In the first 2 minutes of my test ride, I knew I had to have one.
There may be exceptions, but all the dealers I talked to don't stock bikes for immediate sale, only demos (which of course they'll eventually sell.) When they ordered my SR, it took less than a week to get it, but I'm just about 100 miles from Scotts Valley.
I looked at 2016 demos, but even given the savings, I ultimately went with the 2017 due to the ZF13 battery (if you're in fact looking at the ZF13, and the fact that 2017 models' software can be updated remotely, without having to go to the dealer.)
Hope you can test ride one this week; please keep us posted!
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The Leaf and the Zero are about equal in terms of practicality in their respective mode of transport (Four-wheel and Two-wheel). The Zero is however quick as a Tesla Luxury sedan at 1/10th of the cost. You already have a Leaf and you know that 100mi (?) range is limiting where you can use it. Why did you get a Leaf? Does a motorcycle need to have better range than the Leaf to be useful for you?
"What's the deal with buying a Zero" (in the USA)?:
I convinced my dealer to take $500 cash in my pocket as a down payment (they wanted $1000 or $2000 I think?) and they make an order for the bike you want, it gets shipped from Zero Motorcycles factory in Scotts Valley CA to the dealer, and then you go through the dealership for final payment + taxes + fees. I paid cash to the dealer because financing is completely stupid for me on a depreciating asset such as this. Zero Motorcycles does not have a license to sell to you directly so you have to do it this way through a dealership. The absolute best deal you could hope for is a dealer willing to sell you a bike just to look busy and move a unit through their shop, in which case you're looking at paying MSRP and an adjustment to include the taxes, plus some kind of ridiculous shipping and destination fee. You take possession of the bike as you would any other motorbike purchased from a dealership, subject to rules of the state i.e. insurance, registering at the DMV location for your county. Then you ride it as you like and if it is less than 30% battery state of charge when you're done riding for the day you just plug it into a wall socket or it can void the warranty leaving it less than 30%. The suggested state of charge to mind for best long term pack health is 60%-80%, though when you recharge just let it go to 100% and there is some firmware and battery management magic that works only above 90%. Leaving the pack at 100% doesn't have the drastic negative effect like it might on some early Nissan Leaf vehicle batteries. Keeping battery state of charge at least 60% is known to be helpful for long term pack health. The battery itself can take a 3C charge but the bike will prevent you from charging more than 1C, which effectively limits you to a 1-hour charge 0% to 95% if you can get enough charging electronics hooked up - Zero Motorcycles has difficulty to qualify all these electronics around the world so if you need a fast charging then you will look to aftermarket products for your part of the world.
On the matter of purchase price, warranty, and insurance. If you really truly want a purely practical ev motorcycle and don't need the "snap" of a performance model, know that the performance "-R" models are classed as sport bikes or super bikes by insurance underwriters, and cost $100's more to insure. I own and think a 2016 performance model is great, and suggest a 2017 "standard" model is just as fun. The 2017 performance model is wholly unnecessary loads of torque and performances I think you might find interesting if you don't mind the extra insurance premium. This may also be reason enough to consider a used 2016 Zero SR and compare to a new 2017 Zero S which is approximately equal amounts bike but perhaps different purchase price and insurance costs.
The key feature of 2017 models for long term ownership is they are built to allow a firmware upgrade at home without any dealership and this is great because dealerships tend to fuck up the service on Zero bikes, I don't know why, but it seems to be a trend at any traditional motorcycle shop they forget completely how to do their job instead of blame everything on the factory, whenever they see "Electric Vehicle" they just lose their minds completely and turn into stumbling idiots who cannot change a tire correctly. Ten out of ten times, in my experience, it would have been quicker and cheaper (even for a warranty-covered service) to avoid completely the dealership and just figure it out yourself. Thankfully the community is very active and we make our own Unofficial service manual: http://zeromanual.com (http://zeromanual.com)
Parts are not easy to figure out and then there is a one-in-three chance that even if the dealer orders correctly on your behalf, and the factory fulfills that order in good understanding of what you wanted, that the warehouse will just completely fuck it up and send out the wrong part. It happens all the time to me. I imagine that it will be a long time before all the problems of the past are uncovered, so you just have to kind of expect this if you ever order a part. Great dealerships who know how to interact with Zero Motorcycles will know better than to expect any part delivered to be the part that was ordered.
The bike itself is easy but a new bike will not have any fancy technology gadgets. I've added a windscreen, handlebar guards, heated grips, handlebar 2-in riser, 10kW of charging electronics on-board (for a 1C charge rate), top rack, top case, auxiliary J1772 EV charging inlet, primary J1772 EV charging inlet bracket and cowl plastics, and 12V accessory power port. I'm about $20k usd into this $15k usd bike, and it is about par in my mind to a Nissan Leaf. A Leaf would be more useful on snow and ice roads. The Zero charges pretty fast the way I have it now and I can do a 300-500mi day if I want to.
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You should ask your dealer to check Zero's "COV" list (Company Owned Vehicles). I learned about this list when shopping for my DSR...at the time it was full of bikes that were used by the press, etc. Bikes on this list have not been registered so are eligible for all of the rebates, but do have less time left on the warranty because they are often at least one MY old. Could be a way for you to save a few bucks as well as get you one without needing to order.
But be careful on the test ride...all it took for me to decide to ditch my Triumph Tiger was one 20 minute ride on the DSR I ended up purchasing. It was that nice.
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I test drove a Zero a while back and put my BMW F800 street bike up for sale that afternoon. I bought the Zero a year ago. Now, if BMW (or anyone) offered me two gas bikes for my Zero I would say no.
Do you remember how we had these wonderful film cameras and then digital cameras started getting really good? In a matter of 5 years your $1,000 film camera was worthless. You ICE bike will be the same, its just a matter of when.
When batteries go solid state everything will change.
good luck
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You should ask your dealer to check Zero's "COV" list (Company Owned Vehicles). I learned about this list when shopping for my DSR...at the time it was full of bikes that were used by the press, etc. Bikes on this list have not been registered so are eligible for all of the rebates, but do have less time left on the warranty because they are often at least one MY old. Could be a way for you to save a few bucks as well as get you one without needing to order.
This is how I came across my Zero SR for a pretty sick price. You're still considered the original owner which makes you eligible for incentives if offered in your state.
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As far as price paid, I recommend shopping around and seeing what is available. Should you not find a demo or company owned MC, you can still shop around and price dealers against each other on a new unit that must be ordered from the factory. I am fortunate that here, in SoCal, there are three dealers within a couple hours. I contacted all three of them and asked for their lowest price on a 16 SR. The lowest of the three was just south of $1000 off MSRP. Just like any vehicle transaction, price is negotiable. Just need to figure out which dealer is most willing to take a bit of a haircut to move a unit. And need to be lucky enough that there are a couple or more dealers in your area to make it happen.
As far as the bike... this is my fourth MC purchase and the one I enjoy the most by far.
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The unofficial manual does have a page just for this, but as usual there are a lot of good posts here worth incorporating:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide)
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What's involved with buying it?
Fairly similar to buying any other dealership motorcycle that is not on the floor. They take some money, order it, and when it comes it you come back and finish the paperwork. The date of sale is when you pick it up, not the downpayment.
There's some more info in buyers guide on the Unofficial Zero Manual (http://zeromanual.com/) website:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide)
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The unofficial manual does have a page just for this, but as usual there are a lot of good posts here worth incorporating:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide)
You beat me by 2 mins while I was writing a response at work.. LOL.
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My bike arrived 3 weeks from the day I ordered it, however, all the accessories including power tank did not come with the bike. Took another month for those (yes, that's F'd up but that's how they do it.) Demand that everything come at once. I'm still upset that they coudnt install power tank at the factory, instead forcing me to pay dealer $300 to put it in.
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Long story short, thoughts on the sufficiency of a 34hp Zero S ZF6.5?
I'm a little concerned that your dealer's demo is an SR. When you throw a leg over that bike, especially if your friends have been using terms like "weak" and "wimpy", it's going to be an eye-opening experience, and one that the S just won't give you, especially the 6.5. Due to the smaller battery, it can't put out as much current, so it doesn't have as much horsepower or, the thing you'll get addicted to on your first taste, torque.
Seriously consider the SR. Sure, it's pricier. But I'd be willing to bet there isn't an SR owner out there who wishes he'd bought an S, and there are a fair number of S buyers who wish they'd stepped up. Remember the only upgrade path is to buy another one.
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...I'd be willing to bet there isn't an SR owner out there who wishes he'd bought an S, and there are a fair number of S buyers who wish they'd stepped up. Remember the only upgrade path is to buy another one.
I agree the 2016 DSR feels quicker than the 2016 S, and enough so that I think a 2016 S is not interesting to spend money on. However if you offered to trade me a 2017 (or newer) DS for my 2016 DSR, I would probably agree because it has some refinements that I want with the firmware upgrade and also the insurance rates are much lower.
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I have been happy with the power of my 2014 S. It has plenty of power and torque for my usage and I don't think I have ever needed to use full throttle on my bike.
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Also, if you ride the SR, Eco mode might be somewhat helpful in getting an idea of how lower torque feels in the S/SR form.
I don't know how Eco mode on the SR translates to the response of the S 6.5, but my dealer said it would give me some sense of it, and that the S 6.5 was more spirited than the SR's Eco.
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Seriously consider the SR. Sure, it's pricier.
MSRP of a S ZF13 is $14k and an SR ZF13 is $16k....so....yeah....pricier. But an S ZF6.5 is only $11k....that's a big jump from $11k to $16k. Although, I agree that if you can afford it then the SR is the way to go.
So I'm stuck with the S ZF6.5.
What about a used bike? You can find a good deal on 2014-2016 bikes. I'm going to be listing a Black 2014 Zero S ZF11.4 in the next week for less than a 2017 Zero S ZF6.5 as soon as I can finish detailing it and take some fresh pics. Battery warranty is good through August 2019 and if the battery does ever get replaced under warranty Zero seems to replace with whatever the latest battery is they have laying around....in other words....if they replaced the battery under warranty today it would get a ZF13.
Is this an apples-to-apples comparison? Comparing the riding experience of your 14.2 kWh S to a 6.5 kWh S? (a genuine question, not a smarty-pants remark)
This also leads me to the question of: What is the effective difference between an S ZF6.5 and a ZF13.0? In terms of throttle response. (not interested in charge times, distance, etc for the purposes of this question)
Not apples-to-apples but illustrates that you don't need SR performance to get a bike that is a lot of fun to ride.
Between a ZF6.5 and ZF13....ZF6.5 is ~100lbs lighter so even though it has less power it's still going to be a sporty bike. I haven't ridden a ZF6.5 and Zero doesn't list 0-60 times anymore so it's hard to say how much different they will be but I think the ZF6.5 will be a fun bike to ride. The biggest issue you will run into is that your quick new electric bike won't feel as quick after about a week....but that will be true even if you get an SR....still just as fast but you lose that new feeling and the acceleration becomes 'normal' feeling even though you will still leave every ICE standing still at a light.....literally before ICE drivers can even react to the light change and move their foot from the brake to the gas and start rolling you will already be a block away and accelerating with a big grin on your face.
One other thing to keep in mind is resale value....an S ZF6.5 will be harder to sell than an S ZF13 or SR ZF13 since most people want the bigger battery and most that don't will go for an FX or FXS. Although, Zero probably won't sell many of them so maybe when one does go for sale used there will be people waiting for one??
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The SR is just too far out of the price range to consider. I'm already 300% over-budget for what was supposed to be a small side project/toy. Even the ZF13.0 will be too far. So I'm stuck with the S ZF6.5. Which I'm still hopeful will be totally suitable.
Also consider a used bike with larger battery to compare with. I really think an EV motorbike should be minimum 16kWh for the best rider experience but that's just not where the technology is today yet.
I checked the dealer site and see that they have a DS ZF6.5. I'm not interested in dual-sports, and the seat height is waay to high for my meager inseam-challenged 5'10" self. However, perhaps it will give me a realistic glimpse into how the lower-power bike feels. Seem realistic?
Yes. The DS is identical riding position to the S, just rides a little taller because of suspension, and so there is more aerodynamic drag on the DS over the S. You can ride an S down and up concrete stairs, and the DS you can ride right over a concrete wall, they're both very capable. "Hands off" the S is very stable and I would trust it in corners more than the DS, but on straights at speed I have no worry about the DS. The DS can unload its suspension pretty quickly if you're trying to save it from a low-speed tip over, where the S you can kind of just grab it and that point of no return is not as sudden.
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I have been happy with the power of my 2014 S. It has plenty of power and torque for my usage and I don't think I have ever needed to use full throttle on my bike.
Is this an apples-to-apples comparison? Comparing the riding experience of your 14.2 kWh S to a 6.5 kWh S? (a genuine question, not a smarty-pants remark)
This also leads me to the question of: What is the effective difference between an S ZF6.5 and a ZF13.0? In terms of throttle response. (not interested in charge times, distance, etc for the purposes of this question)
Thx!
I can't answer your question as I have never even seen a ZF6.5, much less ridden one. I should point out that I use my Zero as a replacement for local trips to locations where I might normally drive my car. I use the Zero strictly for transportation, not for entertainment, although I do enjoy riding the bike and I also appreciate that it costs only about 2 cents a mile to ride. I don't ride my motorcycles unless I have somewhere to go.
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Hi Atldinan3. From your screen name and looking at Bluemoon I take it your here in Atlanta.
I'm on the south side with a 2013 DS that I bought from a private seller over two years and 10,000 miles ago.
If your looking to go on any Atlanta interstate you want an R bike, if not others will get the "job" done but if motorcycle riding really appeals to you than you will be addicted to these bikes quickly.
I'm not a fan of the 6.5 bikes because in my opinion you will out grow the power and range limits and have a hard time finding a buyer with the same "limited" needs of a 6.5 battery to resale it.
There are 2015 SRs that have sold for around $11,000 not too long ago and I'll give you fair warning there is about a $3000 value drop when you ride a new bike off the lot (based on the R price).
That being said I'm your height and by lowering my forks so that 1 inch is above the clamp my DS fits me just fine, and the DS forks and rear spring are more forgiving on bad roads.
Since price is an issue I'd really look at the used market and just add the price of shipping (about $500) you will make out better in the long run.
Good luck.
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There are a fair number of S buyers who wish they'd stepped up.
I'm one of them ;)
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I just had to chime in again. Obviously there are a lot of us who have been very taken with the performance-oriented Zeros, and will give them up when you pry them from our cold, dead fingers. But, of course, there are always budget concerns.
My best advice is to throw a leg over them before making up your mind, either about what performance level is sufficient for you, or about your budget. Costs are relative and value is relative, as well. In motorcycling just like life in general, you can't make an educated decision without understanding the subject matter. Give them a ride, then you can make an informed decision.
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If I was buying a cheaper zero than the SR.. I would probably go with the supermoto. Tons of fun, cheaper and light.
at least test ride one.. they will have the battery/controller sized closer than demoing a SR.