ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: TheGap on April 16, 2017, 09:07:46 PM
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As mentioned in my very first post to this forum, I recently bought a Zero SR 2017.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8.msg55305#msg55305 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8.msg55305#msg55305)
Although (especially in Sport Mode) I’ve been giggling like a little girl on a swing while riding this bike I notice a few things are … off.
I’ve already uploaded the logfiles to Zero and created a support ticket with them. I also made an appointment with my dealer but additionally would like to get some feedback from people who don’t have any … how should I put it … “commercial conflict of interestâ€.
First of all, from day one I’ve noticed the same sound as mentioned in this post:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5785 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5785)
Also, while driving at constant speed, the typical electric motor sound appears to be modulating.
When I unplug my bike from the mains after my batteries are charged to 100% (this doesn’t happen below 100% SOC) the Charging Indicator remains lit. Even after being unplugged for over 8 hours the indicator is still lit.
This happened only one time, but last week my turn signals completely refused to do anything:
While splitting lanes I turned on all four turn signals for safety (more visible to other drivers). Because I kept my eyes on the road I didn’t notice they didn’t turn on (reviewed it later, from footage on my helmet camera) and the whole ride home they never functioned, even when using the normal left/right turn signal switch.
Turn signals worked perfectly again the next day, a glitch perhaps?
Somewhat more annoying (as in: A LOT) is that very often and completely random the Charging Indicator lights up during my rides (This often even resets the Trip1 counter).
I’m already happy that this doesn’t trigger a safety which shuts down the bike while moving. Still there is a safety mechanism that (understandably) prevents the motor engaging when standing completely still and the Charging Indicator is lit up.
This means, of course, when I’m waiting at a traffic lights and for some odd reason the bike thinks that it’s plugged in, it refuses to move.
Resulting in a decent amount of honking going on behind me; such fun! :(
The first few times I didn’t notice what was going on and the indicator went out while twisting the throttle … after which the motor engaged with quite the firm jolt. I’m sure that was very healthy for my belt.
Probably related to the previous issue is that almost each time I come to a full stop (75~80% of the time) the ‘armed’ indicator goes out for about one~two seconds. During that time, the engine won’t engage. If I didn’t notice and wanted to make a stop and go, I get a ‘High Throttle’ (error code: 1) error which even lengthens the duration I must wait until everything kicks in again.
Then there are some issues relating to the Zero app itself:
- Home View/Statistics mode: While the bike's model and year, SOC and other values are displayed, the "Time to Full Charge" is always 0:00 while charging.
- Home View/Riding Mode: All the available selections for the riding screen remain at their initial values as displayed when the Home View first switched from Statistics mode to Riding Mode. They never change when riding. Torque, kWatts and battery amps remain at zero (see also the video), temperature remains at the values when started and the same goes for time/distance to empty. Time only updates sporadically.
- When I remove the bike from the kickstand and set the killswitch to ON, the app switches correctly to Riding Mode. But switching back to Statistics mode I need to close the app, turn off my bike and !maybe! I’m back to statistics mode when I start them again. This usually takes several tries … if I get it at all. In case you were wondering: yes, killswitch is set to OFF and kickstand is down.
- I've set the units to metric in the Drive Setup screen; this displays the temperature correctly in Celcius but for torque the units are still displayed in Ft-Lbs instead of Nm
- I can’t easily set the ICE bike comparison values because the app only accepts a point as decimal symbol an refuses to accept my local setting of comma as decimal symbol
Are these upstart issues for a new model, all due to my ineptitude or did I buy a lemon?
I absolutely love the bike and wouldn’t want to trade it back to an ICE bike for the world, but some of these issues do dampen the enthusiasm a bit. :'(
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Back when Zero did customer direct support - even with a few of the items you report - the suggestion was to check all the connectors, even specific pin seatings in the connectors. Even if the problem has not been reported before or solved this way.
Zero themselves wouldn't open a ticket for me directly anymore, instead pushing that down to the dealers.
Because dealers are best equipped through those things. So owners are back to feeling kind of helpless looking at all the cables when things don;t go right.
I would press the dealer for a full discovery and explanation of how each reported behavior links back to any problems found to be assured of a full repair.
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Zero themselves wouldn't open a ticket for me directly anymore, instead pushing that down to the dealers.
Because dealers are best equipped through those things. So owners are back to feeling kind of helpless looking at all the cables when things don;t go right.
That's actually what happened. I first contacted the dealer, they told me they opened a ticket with Zero and asked me to upload the logfiles. The automated reply from Zero said they opend a case(probably linked to the ticket from the dealer??), mentioned they also forwarded the logfiles to the dealer and asked me a few additional questions.
Later I uploaded a second logfile accompanied by a link to an edited video from my helmet camera and a list of timestamps of what I experienced.
Today I also found the Zero Log Parser in this forum which will be put to good use :)
I'm going to cross check this with the second logfile, video and list of timestamps I previously created.
I would press the dealer for a full discovery and explanation of how each reported behavior links back to any problems found to be assured of a full repair.
Good idea, will do.
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The turn signals have a defective function that is intermittent, but they do not "talk" to the rest of the bike. I occasionally see no signals when flipping the hazards switch, cancelling the turn signals, and activating a turn signal or some derivation thereof. Someone else has confirmed this and the cause or steps to reproduce the problem are not known to me. I tend to only see it when the hazards are switched on.
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The turn signals have a defective function that is intermittent, but they do not "talk" to the rest of the bike. I occasionally see no signals when flipping the hazards switch, cancelling the turn signals, and activating a turn signal or some derivation thereof. Someone else has confirmed this and the cause or steps to reproduce the problem are not known to me. I tend to only see it when the hazards are switched on.
That seems to match perfectly with my experence.
Because nothing happened when I flipped the hazards switch, I completely forgot it was on. So the entire ride home the hazards switch was on all the time. Reading your post this explains why the turn signals didn't work either.
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Your bike certainly seems to have a number of issues that I haven't heard of before. ??? I sure hope that your dealer can sort them out without keeping your bike for any unreasonable length of time. You would think that by 2017 all of the assembly and component problems that Zero has experienced in the past would have been worked out by now.
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The app is essentially broken for many of us. Don't worry about that because there is no way to fix it.
I think your bike has gremlins. Care to share a MBB log?
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The app is essentially broken for many of us. Don't worry about that because there is no way to fix it.
I figured as much as soon as I read the thread below. With the exception of log downloads I've experienced every single one of the symptoms mention in that thread.
Zero App update: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6374.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6374.0)
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Care to share a MBB log?
Sure, attached is the same one I've sent to Zero.
Last few days:
- Unplugged the bike on Friday
- Drove it about 1.2km on Sunday morning (experienced the Charging Indicator issue a few times)
- After about 10 min another 1.2km (experienced the Charging Indicator issue again a few times)
- plugged the bike back in
- Downloaded the log file several hours later (well into Sunday afternoon).
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Took my bike back to the shop yesterday.
They said I should have it back by Saturday. I somewhat insisted on that since I would like to have it available for a police organised motorcycle training event next Sunday.
Here’s to hoping my three week old bike doesn’t end up as another horror story like some in this thread: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6757.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6757.0)
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/7a/7a19b68184514d9680c92662074d8f19efb8504eaa2ccfa558539fa2e6015652.jpg)
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This makes me pause and reconsider if I should buy a 2017 Zero or not. I have concerns, I really do.
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This makes me pause and reconsider if I should buy a 2017 Zero or not. I have concerns, I really do.
It's quite a lot of cash to put up, but if you want Tesla-like acceleration at one-tenth of the cost... it does that.
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Or buy a trusted used '15 for a lot less (ahem, I got mine for sale listed here and on eBay) ;)
This makes me pause and reconsider if I should buy a 2017 Zero or not. I have concerns, I really do.
It's quite a lot of cash to put up, but if you want Tesla-like acceleration at one-tenth of the cost... it does that.
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Or buy a trusted used '15 for a lot less (ahem, I got mine for sale listed here and on eBay) ;)
If this were a ICE I wouldn't hesitate buying a two year old motorcycle. But it's my opinion with something as electronic as a Zero, the latest model would be the best bet. The dealerships can't/don't deal much on these bikes either.
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In this particular case, the differences are very specific. Aside from the warranty, one has to decide for themselves if the new sturdier belt, more heat-resistant motor, and very slightly bigger battery are enough. For some that is enough, for others it will not be enough to offset the cost difference. From the postings here I tend to see similar kinds of issues on the '16 and '17 as we saw on the '15 (and that's not unexpected - they are very similar.
Or buy a trusted used '15 for a lot less (ahem, I got mine for sale listed here and on eBay) ;)
If this were a ICE I wouldn't hesitate buying a two year old motorcycle. But it's my opinion with something as electronic as a Zero, the latest model would be the best bet. The dealerships can't/don't deal much on these bikes either.
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I got a call from the dealer today, telling me they made quite a lot of progress.
- the belt was lightly misaligned which they adjusted
- because it was a new bike, the belt stretched a little and picked up some slack which in turn increased the noise from the misalignment
- apparently a new firmware has been released, after it has been applied they took it out for a tests and didn't notice any of my reported symptoms anymore.
Since I already have a 1000km on it they're going to do the first maintenance tomorrow and by Saturday I should be able to pick it up.
I said 'should' because to be completely sure a zero technician will still have a look at the bike (remote control of a computer that's attached to the CAN-bus of the bike) to see if everything checks out.
Here's to hoping (https://hopesuressquirks.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/gordon-levitt-worded-heres-to-hoping.gif)
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Picked up my bike from the shop last Saturday and took it out for a spin.
The next day there was a police organised motorcycle training day which was a good test run to see if everything works as it should. And also loads of fun!
Got a lot of attention from a lot of people which is always a nice stroke for the ego 8)
With a few notable exceptions, the first three questions I got asked where always the same ... I presume everyone here knows which ones I'm talking about
Another one for the thread 'Unexpected advantages of an electric bike (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6830)' is that due to the lack of my own engine sound is that I could hear all the remarks behind by back: 'Weird ... a bike that doesn't make a sound' or 'What! Where did he come from? .... oh, I see'
I also seem to have been captured on camera a few times ... Where's Wally the Zero SR : https://www.facebook.com/PZBerlareZele/posts/798292416991461 (https://www.facebook.com/PZBerlareZele/posts/798292416991461) ;D
But best of all: No more problems with the Charging Indicator and no more failed stop-n-go's. Just the entire day fun driving combined with several skill tests/refreshers/practices
Regarding the sounds that were a bit 'off'
- The vibrating sound during hard(er) acceleration seems to be as good as gone
- The modulating sound is still there but only at lower speeds
- I seem to have picked up a new sound: while braking (hard or soft, just louder with when breaking harder) I hear a sound that is best described as 'krrrrrrrrrrrrrrr'
I'll see if I can capture it with as little wind noise as possible and post it here. It might just be that I'm hearing things that are just normal
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It’s been awhile since my last post in this thread. I should have updated sooner because since then a lot has happened to my bike.
TL;DR version: everything works fine now.
In case this may serve as a diagnostic for other people I’ll expound on my experiences:
There were two major issues
(1) onboard charger wrongly detects an external power connection (read: charging indicator lights up).
(2) strange sounds from my drive train.
(1) onboard charger
A few days after the firmware update which (initially) solved to charging indicator issues, everything went south.
The next Monday (why is it always on Mondays?!?!) after the firmware update I was able to commute to my workplace without much issues but after work when I was about to go home, it took a LOOOOONG time before the charging indicator went out.
Before, the charging indicator wrongly lit up only for a few seconds … this time it took more than half an hour … and my bike hadn’t been plugged in during the entire workday.
When I was finally able to leave, the indicator was more often lit than not.
After about a 2~3 km (1.2~1.8 miles) the onboard charger made its final decision ... too bad it was the wrong one. The charging indicator kept being lit, so at the next crossroads when I needed to make a full stop I was stuck with an expensive brick on wheels. A heavy one because even with the ignition key removed, the controller was still active causing the electric motor to provide resistance while pushing my bike back to the secured parking lot of my work.
Before I started this workout, I tried resetting the BMS, toggling the ignition key, etc. … all to no avail.
On the display the error code 6 , 20 and 47 appeared.
To the credit of my reseller, they picked up my bike free of charge.
After contact with Zero, they decided to completely replace the onboard charger under warranty.
This replacement provided a lasting solution to the issue.
I don’t know if that’s by design or an indication of another underlying issue, but to this day I’m still having the same behaviour as explained in this thread: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7553.0
(2) Stranger Sounds
At the end of my previous post I mentioned a strange sound while breaking. Later I figured out this was only during regenerative breaking.
Over the next few weeks this sound slowly became louder and louder … again, only during regenerative breaking. I finally decided to take my bike back to the shop when two pedestrians were visibly startled by this sound when I happened to let go of the throttle when I was right behind them.
At the shop they found the cause and showed it to me … the damage was startling!
I’m sad to say I neglected to take a photo so I’ll try to paint a picture with words here.
The front belt sprocket, has square teeth on the inside which interlocks with the axle of the motor.
Ex: https://catalog.zodiac.nl/ZodiacImage.aspx?image=ZDCE0476&format=Navigatie
These teeth where almost completely gone, leaving behind only a jagged surface and the odd tooth left and right … which were also almost completely worn out.
The square teeth of the axle of the electric motor itself showed similar albeit much, much less damage.
It presume it would have taken only a few more twists on the throttle in Sport Mode to be stuck in the middle of the road without a working drive train.
Zero advised to do a complete replacement of the entire drive train.
Front and back sprocket, belt and even the electric motor since the axle itself is not a replaceable component in the motor.
Fortunately for me, this too, was replaced under warranty.
With this replacement all remaining funny sounds are gone and my bike now makes the same sounds compared to the ones I have on my helmet camera (when I did a few test rides at resellers) and listening to other Zero's on reviews on YouTube.
My reseller told me that Zero had never before seen this kind of damage, they certainly didn't expect this on a new bike with only 3000~4000km (1800~2500 miles) on the odometer. So contrary to normal procedure where they just write off the components, they asked to send the drive train back to them for further investigation.
… Too bad because I would have liked to have built something at home with a 52kW 3-phase generator. For my purposes, the damage there was to the axle was of little consequence anyway.
edited to add: with the replacement of my drivetrain I get about 10~15% more range out of a charge
Conclusion:
These two issues must have been present from the first day I took the bike out of the shop. It took a while for everything to first get recognized by the shop and then get fixed, but I had no more issues since.
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When I unplug my bike from the mains after my batteries are charged to 100% (this doesn’t happen below 100% SOC) the Charging Indicator remains lit. Even after being unplugged for over 8 hours the indicator is still lit.
Regarding your very first post in this thread. The quote above relates to the only issue I can speak to.
When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.
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When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
Your description is a perfect match with my experience.
I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
AHA!! Thank you!
I never contacted Zero about this, just asked my reseller several times but they either ignored the question or said something to the effect of "Hmm, that's strange. We'll look into it." and never heard from it again.
But now I know! Thanks.
This must also be the answer to the question in this thread 2018 charging display oddities (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7553.0)
I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.
No, this behaviour did not change after the all repairs.
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Very interesting symptoms. I have a 2017 DSR and the only thing I have similar is the belt noise. I have checked tension and that is normal, on the looser end of the scale using the gates tester zero recommends. I do notice the belt is noisier below 40F than when the temps were in the 80s even though the tension is the same. I also noticed that after 3100 miles the belt resonance is slightly louder and so are my tires on the DSR. The DSR tires make more noise than anything.
I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on. When I charge the bike it blinks and when its fully charged it stays solid as long as the charger is plugged in. Once I disconnect the charger the light goes out in a few seconds and I have no lights on the dash. So in my case the charge light staying on after the charge when the power is disconnected is not normal.
As far as the other problems have not seen any of those. But thank you for documenting them for those of us incase we do have the same issues. A few good learning experiences for all of us. Make sure we check the drive train if we hear anything funny. Would suck to have the shaft and drive train go out of warranty. Thanks again for the detail.
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I have a 2017 DSR [...] I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on.
It would seem weird if that was the cause of the different behaviour, but the only difference I can see is that you have a DSR and droidish and me have an SR ?!?!
I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.
A DSR does have some different specs than an SR while many of the relevant hardware components are the same so there must be some software difference ... but an entire function ... sounds scary.
To me, this would look like an issue in the software versioning system Zero uses for their programmers.
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When I unplug my bike from the mains after my batteries are charged to 100% (this doesn’t happen below 100% SOC) the Charging Indicator remains lit. Even after being unplugged for over 8 hours the indicator is still lit.
Regarding your very first post in this thread. The quote above relates to the only issue I can speak to.
When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.
Since I have the same symptom with my 2018 Zero S, that explanation makes me feel better. Plus, it sounds about right, since if I disconnect the charger power cord before the system has fully charged and balanced the pack, the display and steady green light will go out. But if I wait until the charging system has fully completed its task and the power draw is down to 5 watts, and then pull the plug, the dash and charging light will stay on. So that does sound like the light will eventually go out once the voltage is bled down a bit. But I bet it will take quite a long time before that happens.
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I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.
I'm no electrical engineer, and I have a lousy memory to boot, but I think it was a capacitor that was deleted. Definitely hardware though. Prolly a case where the bean counters found something that was not absolutely essentail, and had it deleted.
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I have a 2017 DSR [...] I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on.
It would seem weird if that was the cause of the different behaviour, but the only difference I can see is that you have a DSR and droidish and me have an SR ?!?!
I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.
A DSR does have some different specs than an SR while many of the relevant hardware components are the same so there must be some software difference ... but an entire function ... sounds scary.
To me, this would look like an issue in the software versioning system Zero uses for their programmers.
From my understanding the 2017 DSR and SR are pretty much the same with the electronics. Mostly the mechanical parts like wheels, tires, brakes rotors, footpegs. The biggest specs difference is range is slightly different because of the larger rims and dual sport tires. Which can reduce range.
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I have just returned from my dealer after getting the 600-mile servicing. While there, I asked about the display and charging light staying on after the charging cord is disconnected, the battery pack has been fully charged and all of the battery cells completely balanced. It should be no surprise that the technician found no odd logs and had never heard of this issue before. So I guess I won't worry about it and just enjoy riding my new Zero. ;)