ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Tater McTatums on April 10, 2017, 03:08:55 AM
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I apologize in advance for the length but I feel that its better to be overly descriptive whenever an issue arises
Here's what happened:
A group of motorcycles from my area (all ICE except for mine) decided to gather for a group ride. Since I hadn't ridden yet this year, I decided that I would join them for the first time. The meet up point was the local mall. Up to this point, my bike had been in the garage plugged in for the winter for probably about 5 months. I unplugged it, set the tire pressures, and set off. Made the 8 mile ride to the mall without issue.
After talking and waiting for others to arrive, we set off for our trip. Not even one mile in, I noticed that I wasn't getting any regen while braking (I primarily ride in custom mode 100% torque, 0% throttle regen, 100% brake regen, top speed 102). This isn't the first time I've had this happen, a key cycle has always fixed this in the past. So I figured that I would cycle the key quickly while we were stopped at a red light to reset the system. This turned out to be a mistake, or a blessing, depending on how you look at it.
When the bike turned back on, I no longer had any response from the throttle. The display was still showing 87% battery remaining but i couldn't get it to move. At this point, the warning lamp on the dash began flashing, one blink then a pause then three more flashes and then repeat. I was now powerless at the red light and it of course turns green. So I coasted it onto the sidewalk and began troubleshooting, my fellow riders pulling off into the distance. (Not that it's pertinent to the story but they did notice my disappearance within a mile or so. I told them to go on without me)
I attempted a few more key cycles, I tried putting the kickstand up and down, even cycling the kill switch, all to no avail. When I switched the dash to display error codes, it read 0001 (which i was unable to locate what this meant). As a last ditch effort, I removed the cover on the BMS and pressed the reset button. Still nothing.
I eventually decided to push the bike back into the mall and up to the building. (This is the possible blessing I mentioned earlier. I was still next to the mall instead of being stuck in the middle of nowhere on the side of the road) At this point, I was hoping that a quick plug in to an outlet would bring the throttle back to life. My newest issue was locating an outlet to use. After searching around and finding nothing, I went into the information/security office to request permission to bring it into the mall to an outlet right next to the door. They refused to allow it inside, but they did direct me to the ONE outlet they knew of outdoors. Of course it was at the other end of the mall from where my bike was because that's my luck. Nonetheless, I pushed it around to the outlet and plugged it in.
After just a few minutes of charging, I decided to try the throttle again. Still no response. So I left the bike turned on and plugged it back it. After a few different combinations of plugging in, unplugging, and key cycles, success! I got the throttle to respond again. So I put the kickstand down to put the cord away and put my gear back on. When I put the kickstand up to leave, the green "ready to go" light came back on the dash but I had lost throttle and the warning light began flashing again, same pattern as before.
At this point I plugged it back in and began searching this forum to find if this had happened to anyone else. I found a couple other instances where other owners had the same problem. The fix seemed to be charge to 100% and magically it'll work again. Since I wasn't going anywhere anyways and I was already at 88%, I figured I'd give it a shot.
After about 40 minutes, the display read 98%. Now, a new interesting symptom emerged. The charger was now turning on and off, verified by both the dash and the app. The charger would activate for a few seconds, then off for a few seconds, then back on. During this time, the charging indicator was remained blinking at its normal pace. However, the time to full display would cycle between 12 minutes and zero minutes in sync with when the app showed charge coming in. I decided that this was close enough and decided to give the throttle another go. Still no response even with 100% battery.
I messed around with plug and key cycle combinations and managed to get the throttle to respond once more. This time I carefully held the bike up and got ready to ride again without using the kickstand. I got on the bike and everything seemed to be working. I immediately got on the highway and rode home as fast as traffic would allow.
The one malfunction I noticed during my ride back was once again the regen. For lack of a better term, it was "stuttering". Basically, it felt like it was activating ABS when regenerative braking. (When I say ABS, I'm equating it to the pulsation felt in the brake pedal when ABS activates in a car) I'm aware that my 2014 is not equipped with ABS, this just the best analogy I can think of to describe the feeling. The power/regen display on the dash confirmed that it was being caused by the regen. It would basically flicker whenever it went until regen. I decided to switch to sport mode since that employs the least amount of regen and managed to make it the rest of the way home.
The bike is now in the garage charging once more. I have no idea what the problem was/is. The only thing i can think of is that the pack is unbalanced. Before I unplugged it at the mall, the app showed a cell balance of around 50 mV even at 98% charge. I'm hoping that this was a one time fluke caused by being in storage for so long.
However, this incident has severely diminished my trust for my motorcycle. My bike only has a little over 3000 miles on it and only sees the outside on warm, dry, sunny days (a rare commodity here in upstate N.Y.). The length of my rides is already limited by the size of the battery since I don't have any form of quick charging, only the onboard charger. Admittedly, the SR has never failed me before today and I bought it brand new. But the 2 ICE motorcycles I owned before this (also purchased new) never left me stranded and I put many more miles on those, even through inclement weather.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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You have hopefully seen the thread bout the new guidance from Zero about charging, basically, to not keep the bike plugged-in all the time? Not sure if your issue is related or not ... Sorry, can't be of more help, but do look-up that post and avoid keeping the bike plugged in when not needed.
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I saw the post about this here and on the Facebook owner's group page. As I understood it, the new recommendations are supposed to increase the longevity of the battery. However, those recommendations didn't become public until after my bike was already placed into storage for the winter. This was the third winter of owning my zero, following the procedure as outlined in the owner's manual. I had no issues come springtime the other 2 years. Also, since riding it is the only way to discharge it to 60%, something I had no intentions of doing with snow on the roads, I chose to leave it on the charger until I needed it again.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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I know someone had stuttering when the brake light switch was coming on with the brake lever rattling slightly. The bike thought the brakes were on so triggered regen.
If your brake light switch was on when stopped would that cause the other issues you experienced? Will the bike try to prevent you pulling away when the thinks the brake is on?
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I know the bike will not prevent pulling away with the brake on. I know this because one time I held the front brake and gave it some throttle, mainly to see if I could do a burnout. Turns out the answer was yes and it's very easy to do so.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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I apologize in advance for the length but I feel that its better to be overly descriptive whenever an issue arises
Here's what happened:
A group of motorcycles from my area (all ICE except for mine) decided to gather for a group ride. Since I hadn't ridden yet this year, I decided that I would join them for the first time. The meet up point was the local mall. Up to this point, my bike had been in the garage plugged in for the winter for probably about 5 months. I unplugged it, set the tire pressures, and set off. Made the 8 mile ride to the mall without issue.
After talking and waiting for others to arrive, we set off for our trip. Not even one mile in, I noticed that I wasn't getting any regen while braking (I primarily ride in custom mode 100% torque, 0% throttle regen, 100% brake regen, top speed 102). This isn't the first time I've had this happen, a key cycle has always fixed this in the past. So I figured that I would cycle the key quickly while we were stopped at a red light to reset the system. This turned out to be a mistake, or a blessing, depending on how you look at it.
When the bike turned back on, I no longer had any response from the throttle. The display was still showing 87% battery remaining but i couldn't get it to move. At this point, the warning lamp on the dash began flashing, one blink then a pause then three more flashes and then repeat. I was now powerless at the red light and it of course turns green. So I coasted it onto the sidewalk and began troubleshooting, my fellow riders pulling off into the distance. (Not that it's pertinent to the story but they did notice my disappearance within a mile or so. I told them to go on without me)
I attempted a few more key cycles, I tried putting the kickstand up and down, even cycling the kill switch, all to no avail. When I switched the dash to display error codes, it read 0001 (which i was unable to locate what this meant). As a last ditch effort, I removed the cover on the BMS and pressed the reset button. Still nothing.
I eventually decided to push the bike back into the mall and up to the building. (This is the possible blessing I mentioned earlier. I was still next to the mall instead of being stuck in the middle of nowhere on the side of the road) At this point, I was hoping that a quick plug in to an outlet would bring the throttle back to life. My newest issue was locating an outlet to use. After searching around and finding nothing, I went into the information/security office to request permission to bring it into the mall to an outlet right next to the door. They refused to allow it inside, but they did direct me to the ONE outlet they knew of outdoors. Of course it was at the other end of the mall from where my bike was because that's my luck. Nonetheless, I pushed it around to the outlet and plugged it in.
After just a few minutes of charging, I decided to try the throttle again. Still no response. So I left the bike turned on and plugged it back it. After a few different combinations of plugging in, unplugging, and key cycles, success! I got the throttle to respond again. So I put the kickstand down to put the cord away and put my gear back on. When I put the kickstand up to leave, the green "ready to go" light came back on the dash but I had lost throttle and the warning light began flashing again, same pattern as before.
At this point I plugged it back in and began searching this forum to find if this had happened to anyone else. I found a couple other instances where other owners had the same problem. The fix seemed to be charge to 100% and magically it'll work again. Since I wasn't going anywhere anyways and I was already at 88%, I figured I'd give it a shot.
After about 40 minutes, the display read 98%. Now, a new interesting symptom emerged. The charger was now turning on and off, verified by both the dash and the app. The charger would activate for a few seconds, then off for a few seconds, then back on. During this time, the charging indicator was remained blinking at its normal pace. However, the time to full display would cycle between 12 minutes and zero minutes in sync with when the app showed charge coming in. I decided that this was close enough and decided to give the throttle another go. Still no response even with 100% battery.
I messed around with plug and key cycle combinations and managed to get the throttle to respond once more. This time I carefully held the bike up and got ready to ride again without using the kickstand. I got on the bike and everything seemed to be working. I immediately got on the highway and rode home as fast as traffic would allow.
The one malfunction I noticed during my ride back was once again the regen. For lack of a better term, it was "stuttering". Basically, it felt like it was activating ABS when regenerative braking. (When I say ABS, I'm equating it to the pulsation felt in the brake pedal when ABS activates in a car) I'm aware that my 2014 is not equipped with ABS, this just the best analogy I can think of to describe the feeling. The power/regen display on the dash confirmed that it was being caused by the regen. It would basically flicker whenever it went until regen. I decided to switch to sport mode since that employs the least amount of regen and managed to make it the rest of the way home.
The bike is now in the garage charging once more. I have no idea what the problem was/is. The only thing i can think of is that the pack is unbalanced. Before I unplugged it at the mall, the app showed a cell balance of around 50 mV even at 98% charge. I'm hoping that this was a one time fluke caused by being in storage for so long.
However, this incident has severely diminished my trust for my motorcycle. My bike only has a little over 3000 miles on it and only sees the outside on warm, dry, sunny days (a rare commodity here in upstate N.Y.). The length of my rides is already limited by the size of the battery since I don't have any form of quick charging, only the onboard charger. Admittedly, the SR has never failed me before today and I bought it brand new. But the 2 ICE motorcycles I owned before this (also purchased new) never left me stranded and I put many more miles on those, even through inclement weather.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
I left my 2016 DSR on the charger until the first of march (when I noticed the new storage instructions). At that time my cell balance had climbed from 3mv when I put the bike away in late November to 63mv. I rode it down to <40%SOC twice today after recharging it to above 60%. Now my balance is at around 41mv at 81% SOC after the second ride. Hopefully it will fall back down after some additional riding. Looking at my logs, it looks like it climbed slowly to around 43mv in mid January, then it dropped to 19mv and started to climb again to 63mv in March. I'm not thrilled that the old instructions let this happen, and that nobody contacted me about the new storage instructions when they came out (dealer, and/or Zero).
Steve
Update (4/11), after two more rides and charges, I'm down to 18mv. Hopefully in a few more cycles we can get it down to 3-4mv where it belongs.
Steve
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I'm not thrilled about the lack of communication about the new instructions either. I can't fault the dealer I bought it from though because they went out of business shortly after I purchased my SR. Would've been nice for Zero to contact owners instead of hiding the instructions on a back page of their website.
As far as looking through the log data, I don't have any way of doing that. All the information I have is based off the live data that was streamed to the app when I had it running earlier.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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You can email logs to zero and then change the email address to yours (from the app). You can then decode them using the online decoder here: http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser (http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser) (provided by cecil_t if you do a search on the forum). Download both the BMS and Battery logs, the parser can handle both. Kind of interesting to look at.
Steve
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The only time I ever had trouble with my '14 street FX (v. 36 firmware) was when I set it to 0% throttle/100% brake regen (intense regen 'stuttering', loss of throttle, barely got home, etc.). I set it to 30%/70%, no problems since.
Ray
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I tried to download the logs when I got home but the app seemed to freeze at 67%. I left it there for a few minutes but then i cancelled it when it didn't proceed any farther. Perhaps I'll go out and give it another shot later this evening.
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I'm pretty sure you need to charge it to 100% *and* let it complete equalization in order to balance the cells. Riding it with partial charge won't do it. You can open the top of the two plugs on the front of the battery to see the lights on the BMS. Check your owners manual for what the light patterns mean and how to tell when equalization is happening and when it is over.
I left my 2016 DSR on the charger until the first of march (when I noticed the new storage instructions). At that time my cell balance had climbed from 3mv when I put the bike away in late November to 63mv. I rode it down to <40%SOC twice today after recharging it to above 60%. Now my balance is at around 41mv at 81% SOC after the second ride. Hopefully it will fall back down after some additional riding. Looking at my logs, it looks like it climbed slowly to around 43mv in mid January, then it dropped to 19mv and started to climb again to 63mv in March. I'm not thrilled that the old instructions let this happen, and that nobody contacted me about the new storage instructions when they came out (dealer, and/or Zero).
Steve
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Thanks. I'll leave it on the charger overnight to see what's up in the morning.
Steve
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Try downloading only the MBB log, it's much smaller
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My first thought is to send the logs to Zero which will raise a support ticket. Then I would contact your dealer, tell them this story and ask them if they can update the firmware.
More than likely, it's a consequence of keeping your bike in storage. It could be as simple as some electrical contracts becoming tarnished or slightly corroded from lack of use. I'd try twisting the throttle with the power off lots of times to give it some use. Put the kickstand up and down, use the brakes. Anything with a switch or contact might just need easing up a bit to get it working properly. Try spraying a bit of WD40 where it might help too.
Don't leave it plugged in next winter and follow the new advice of leaving it at around 60% charged.
Good luck!
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Would've been nice for Zero to contact owners instead of hiding the instructions on a back page of their website.
I got a letter​ from Zero with the new charging instructions.
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Interesting. When did you get the letter? I never saw one.
Steve
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I also never received any letter from Zero.
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I got it a couple of weeks ago. I can scan and post it, but it just says the same as has been stated here. (My bike is a 2016 FXS that I only bought​ recently.)
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More than likely, it's a consequence of keeping your bike in storage. It could be as simple as some electrical contracts becoming tarnished or slightly corroded from lack of use. I'd try twisting the throttle with the power off lots of times to give it some use. Put the kickstand up and down, use the brakes. Anything with a switch or contact might just need easing up a bit to get it working properly. Try spraying a bit of WD40 where it might help too.
I agree that being in storage is most likely the cause of my issue but I don't believe it was a hardware malfunction. Best I could tell, everything was working like it was supposed to. For example, the "ready to go" light would turn on and off based on the position of the kickstand. The throttle worked fine on the way there and, once I got the bike to respond to my commands, worked fine the whole way home. I believe my issue was software related but I couldn't tell you exactly how. The way I got it to move again was a mixture of plugging and unplugging the bike in combination with turning the bike on and off. Essentially, I tricked the bike into working like it should.
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Charger turning off and on near full charge is normal. Regen "pulsing" hot off a charge is also normal.
Let it balance (leave it plugged in for a couple hours after a full charge), then go ride, rinse and repeat.
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Charger turning off and on near full charge is normal. Regen "pulsing" hot off a charge is also normal.
Let it balance (leave it plugged in for a couple hours after a full charge), then go ride, rinse and repeat.
Always listen to promotech.
Just another thought, I wonder if you managed to reset the BMS correctly? I've never done it, but your last comments around it being a software issue makes me think a reboot or the equivalent has to be worth a try. Resetting the BMS is the nearest I'm aware of. Your bike has been fine for years with the same software on it, after all.
One really long shot is that somehow the firmware has got corrupted. Again, a reset could help, but the act of getting the firmware update might just fix an issue that could have cropped up with the way the original firmware was stored. Memory of all types can fail. That really is pushing it a bit and is only a suggestion to run by a qualified person.
Another reason for suggesting a firmware upgrade is that it might cope better with certain parameters. You mentioned cell balance and your current firmware might be struggling with that a bit. New firmware might have some refinement that helps.
Do what promotech suggests first. Everything he says makes a lot of sense. He's one of the rockstars on this forum.
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Just don't rinse ;)
Do what promotech suggests first. Everything he says makes a lot of sense.
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I am inclined to agree with MostlyBonkers that its from lack of use. But it may not be fixable by moving everything that moves, but its worth a try. Corrosion may have gotten into a wire joint some where and may need replacing.
The new storage instructions will result in more sell imbalance, but longer battery life. You just need to charge it as per the new instructions before the first ride of the summer. You also need to monitor battery SOC if its left for a long time.
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Just don't rinse ;)
Do what promotech suggests first. Everything he says makes a lot of sense.
Sorry Kocho, I didn't get that one. I pride myself on having a dirty mind too! To save further embarrassment, I'll ask a friend at work to explain.
Did you mean to say: don't forget to rinse? That would make more sense to me at least. You don't know where those rockstars have been... ;-)
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I am inclined to agree with MostlyBonkers that its from lack of use. But it may not be fixable by moving everything that moves, but its worth a try. Corrosion may have gotten into a wire joint some where and may need replacing.
The new storage instructions will result in more sell imbalance, but longer battery life. You just need to charge it as per the new instructions before the first ride of the summer. You also need to monitor battery SOC if its left for a long time.
Yes, good point about wires and contacts. Moisture could be an issue too. Try leaving the bike outside on a dry day. Try and avoid direct sunlight hitting the battery compartment, but putting it out to dry could help.
Also, don't forget that the cells are top balanced. It's strange that cell balance goes out after storage. One of the reasons why the advice was to leave the bike plugged in is that the BMS wakes up every 72 hours and should do any balancing that's required. It might mean there's a glitch in the firmware, which could be resolved by an update.
I hope one of these suggestions works. Next winter, I would leave the bike unplugged as per the new advice. Also make sure it's kept in a dry place that is well ventilated to avoid any condensation. High humidity doesn't help.
Have you thought about getting snow tyres and an Aerostitch so you can ride all year round? I'd hate to not be able to ride for months each year.
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Always listen to promotech.
:D
promotech is probably a guy promoting technology
protomech is probably a guy building mechanical prototypes....
:P
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Just don't rinse ;)
Do what promotech suggests first. Everything he says makes a lot of sense.
Sorry Kocho, I didn't get that one. I pride myself on having a dirty mind too! To save further embarrassment, I'll ask a friend at work to explain.
Did you mean to say: don't forget to rinse? That would make more sense to me at least. You don't know where those rockstars have been... ;-)
As I take it "rinse and repeate" is a reference to washing your hair - some thing ever one does right? Its a fun/slang way to say "repeate the process"
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Yup. But no hidden meaning - just getting a bike wet unnecessarily only increases the chance of problems. So I was aying "don't follow that part of the advice"...
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Yup. But no hidden meaning - just getting a bike wet unnecessarily only increases the chance of problems. So I was aying "don't follow that part of the advice"...
I found a new problem with a wet bike. The J1772 inlet filled with water and overnight in cold temperatures the water became a solid. This ice prevents a J1772 plug from inserting into the inlet. Five hours time in the sunshine was needed to melt the ice and allow a charging connection.
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Yeah other than doing an imitation of a gas pump and tank I see no reason to have that plug on top of the tank instead of the side of the bike some where.
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I found a new problem with a wet bike. The J1772 inlet filled with water and overnight in cold temperatures the water became a solid. This ice prevents a J1772 plug from inserting into the inlet. Five hours time in the sunshine was needed to melt the ice and allow a charging connection.
I haven't experienced this myself, but next time you could try using a hair dryer to speed up the thawing process.
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Yup. But no hidden meaning - just getting a bike wet unnecessarily only increases the chance of problems. So I was aying "don't follow that part of the advice"...
I found a new problem with a wet bike. The J1772 inlet filled with water and overnight in cold temperatures the water became a solid. This ice prevents a J1772 plug from inserting into the inlet. Five hours time in the sunshine was needed to melt the ice and allow a charging connection.
Please report this to Zero.
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Yup. But no hidden meaning - just getting a bike wet unnecessarily only increases the chance of problems. So I was aying "don't follow that part of the advice"...
I found a new problem with a wet bike. The J1772 inlet filled with water and overnight in cold temperatures the water became a solid. This ice prevents a J1772 plug from inserting into the inlet. Five hours time in the sunshine was needed to melt the ice and allow a charging connection.
Please report this to Zero.
Do the people of Zero Motorcycles know what freezing temperatures are? Does it even snow in Scotts Valley CA (http://www.intellicast.com/local/history.aspx?location=USCA1035)? (answer: Annual Snowfall is zero inches 0") ;D
I may add a plastic pipette to always have with me or a bit of absorbent towel, and remove any liquids from the inlet before leaving the bike overnight.
I do agree that having the J1772 inlet mounted like a "gasoline fill port" makes it difficult to empty when it is filled with fluids. if it were mounted on the kickstand side of the bike in the frame, it would naturally drain any liquids. However the position like it is now avoids a lot of the dirt and debris. If the port were side-mounted I think it could be jammed up with mud easier, but also it could be washed easily.
Anyways then, the J1772 inlet I have mounted up is from digiNow Inc. It is in the same bracket and mounting place but is not actually the OEM ChargeTank inlet. Does the OEM inlet fill with water?
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Nope, had some pretty good waterproof-tests here in the Netherlands and the socket stays dry...
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You can email logs to zero and then change the email address to yours (from the app). You can then decode them using the online decoder here: http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser (http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser) (provided by cecil_t if you do a search on the forum). Download both the BMS and Battery logs, the parser can handle both. Kind of interesting to look at.
Steve
I finally managed to get both logs to download to my phone. For whatever reason, the BMS file would not decode. I was able to decode the MBB file and read through that. I'm not even going to pretend like I know what the majority of the lines in the file stand for. The first thing that jumped out at me was "CAN1 BIT0 error. count=1". This line shows up a few times but only during the period where I had no response from the throttle. I also spotted these:
"SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x4000, Error Reg: 0x08, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4603, Data: 00 FF 00, Unknown" & "SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x0000, Error Reg: 0x00, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4603, Data: 00 00 3E, Unknown" Each of these was followed by a few lines that were still in hexadecimal (except for the timestamp). These lines only appeared once each but they show up around the time where I was experiencing the jittery regen.
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It might mean there's a glitch in the firmware, which could be resolved by an update.
The last time I took the bike to the dealer they updated the firmware. After a bit of research, I discovered that this was back in July 2015. Unfortunately, getting the SR to the dealer is not exactly a simple task. I have to borrow a trailer to tow it up there since the closest dealer is 150 miles away from me. The only day that they are open which I also have the day off from work is Saturday. I'm not sure how long a firmware update takes to complete but if it isn't something that I can wait for them to complete, I'd have to leave the bike there. Each roundtrip takes approximately 6 hours. I've had to do this once before when I was getting the cluster, tank bag, and charging cord replaced under warranty. It's not impossible to accomplish but it is a giant pain.
Have you thought about getting snow tyres and an Aerostitch so you can ride all year round? I'd hate to not be able to ride for months each year
No thank you. The DOT excessively salts the roads around here during the winter. I don't want that stuff anywhere near the electronics. Besides that, riding in the winter is cold and miserable, not to mention the potential to crash is exponentially higher. I have done it before when I was younger. No desire to repeat the experience.
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Any word on that letter that Zero has sent out ?