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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Duskfire on February 14, 2017, 06:56:00 AM
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First ride on the SR since I bought it this January, got my new handlebars and mirrors installed, stopped by Napa to show the guy I bought the stupid Torx security screw bit for the throttle the bike and thank him.
The whole shop was curious they all came out and chatted, asked lots of questions, eventually I was ready to go, they all egged me on to see it rocket off, well I pulled onto the main road in sport mode, (something I said I wouldn't use until I got used to it from an ICE bike) almost had the bike straightened out from the corner before I gave it some juice, spun the back wheel and came straight down on my side.
Embarrassing to say the least, knocked my new handlebars loose, ruined my new mirror and tore a good sized chunk of skin off of my booty. Scratched the tank pretty good too but I already have my paint for it, have just been waiting for it to warm up to spray the new color.
Gave me a good shock more than anything, I got the bike after some lady ran over me on my R6 on the same road...
defently need an adjustment period for not having the clutch to control cornering, I had even read all the warnings about too much throttle on corners and I still laid it down! Got my thinking, how do they let people test ride these things! The DS I was in at the dealer didn't have half that torque!
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I was afraid your post was going to end that way. I learned very quickly to respect the throttle coming out of turns but thankfully I didn't learn the hard way - though I did have the rear tire step out on me a few times when I first got the bike. It's not as powerful as some ICE bikes I've ridden but it has still has plenty and the power delivery is so sudden that it can catch you out. Sorry you dropped your new bike but you're not the first. Do you have a 2017?
Note to Zero: Traction control please.
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Ouch! :( The torque is easily enough to lose traction in a number of ways.
I remember riding through the winter in Seattle and generally having to mind wet leaves, gravel, mud, etc. I suggest using Eco mode for as long as you can handle it. Well, when your ride is ready again, anyway...
I fishtailed a number of times on my 2013 DS commuting there. I put on a Crampbuster mainly to even out my throttle use, and that's kept me out of trouble; probably helps ease belt strain, too.
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Nope 2015 Zero SR bought used with less than 500 miles on it :)
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Duskfire,
same here, I had a double take when I read that you "came down on your side".
I was not ready for that. I thought you'd say your belt snapped or something like that.
I felt so bad for you, especially you were innocently trying to impress with the zero's awesome torque.
I had it (2017 DSR) step out on me 4-5 time now. Once kind of hard so I even felt it in my hip from my reflex recovery move of my body with the leg out.
Although I am used to the rear (provoked) coming out on my ZRX-1200 (120 hp on the rear) which ends in a nice long slide, I must admit that, the weight distribution of the DSR feels slightly different (frame size vs. total weight) in a way that I am going to wait a bit until my tires are less grippy to push the friction threshold any more than getting a micro slide.
I am impressed how you seem to have taken it.
@MichaelJohn, I hear you, but I sincerely hope they don't add any rider aids.
One of the reasons why I love riding so much is that you still have to take it upon you and deal with the forces of physics without a computer automating your ride.
That's just my humble preference.
Duskfire, am glad you're ok (sort off).
show us some pictures of your new color :)
Rider7
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Duskfire,
same here, I had a double take when I read that you "came down on your side".
I was not ready for that. I thought you'd say your belt snapped or something like that.
I felt so bad for you, especially you were innocently trying to impress with the zero's awesome torque.
I had it (2017 DSR) step out on me 4-5 time now. Once kind of hard so I even felt it in my hip from my reflex recovery move of my body with the leg out.
Although I am used to the rear (provoked) coming out on my ZRX-1200 (120 hp on the rear) which ends in a nice long slide, I must admit that, the weight distribution of the DSR feels slightly different (frame size vs. total weight) in a way that I am going to wait a bit until my tires are less grippy to push the friction threshold any more than getting a micro slide.
I am impressed how you seem to have taken it.
@MichaelJohn, I hear you, but I sincerely hope they don't add any rider aids.
One of the reasons why I love riding so much is that you still have to take it upon you and deal with the forces of physics without a computer automating your ride.
That's just my humble preference.
Duskfire, am glad you're ok (sort off).
show us some pictures of your new color :)
Rider7
Thanks all for the responses, yeah wasn't too hard on anything other than my ego lol. I've got a clients R1 in front of my paint job and then I'll start a thread for sure, personally I wouldn't complain about extra riding aids, I've got an 1980 KZ 400 for when I wanna rough it, nice little light bike, easy to skid the tires on, but pretty hard to tip it over lol, same with the R6 I only lost grip with it on a very bald tire and was able to pull out of it. Nothing like having a brand new bike with new tires and tipping it over 10 minutes after getting it out of the garage for its maiden voyage... [emoji29]
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Nothing like having a brand new bike with new tires and tipping it over 10 minutes after getting it out of the garage for its maiden voyage... [emoji29]
I'm glad you're healthy and sharing the story. We can all benefit to know more about the importance of a good helmet, protective riding gear, and crash protection equipment on a bike. Also why Sport mode is completely stupid for the first 1000mi on a Zero... riding in Eco during the first months of ownership was important to limit the stupid things I would be tempted to try, and yet I still had a lot of scary experiences after that time to learn what is Sport mode and how the bike handles. I've tipped my 2016 DSR over in rocky dirt, uphill on pavement, low speed off a curb, uphill into a snow bank, and once while it was moving I jumped off as it sank down into a muddy lake bed. I do appreciate all of the dumb things that can be done when not even trying to impress anyone.
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I've done it twice on my SR, while never even coming close to doing the same on my R1. I rode in ECO mode for nearly a year after the second time. I've only recently started leaving it in custom (100% everything) all the time. You just have to resist the urge to hammer it while leaned over from a stop or slow pace. Spinning the tire in the grass repeatedly has helped me get used to it breaking loose, the feeling is very similar to wet pavement. I still haven't mastered it by any means.
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Maybe I am jaded, or, maybe I got a lemon, but, so far I am much more impressed with my 2013 FX than my 2016 SR.
I have whacked the throttle a few times from a stop in sport and have not been overly impressed. I have had the tire break
traction a time or two in a garage or on concrete, but, haven't had anything scary ( or exciting ) happen while on
asphalt. My general goal with an electric vehicle is for range, so, usually ride it in custom mode with everything set
to minimum except for maximum regen on braking. I have only put a few hundred miles on it and haven't done any
benchmarking so not able to tell if it is me, or, if it is actually the bike. Everything should be up to date as I took it to
Harlan right from picking it up. He did a firmware update and said everything looked good. The bike had 500 miles when
I got it and it has just under 1,000 now. I have been riding 9 and 10 second ICE bikes for decades so, power isn't new
to me. It is absolutely a more competent road bike than the FX, just less fun ( for me ) than the FX. I picked up a G Tech
performance meter and once I get around to mounting the 12v accessory and the G Tech, I will have some legitimate numbers.
My daily driver ICE bike is a modified 1985 Kawasaki Turbo.
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I have to remind myself to put my DS into Eco mode when the roads are wet. I recently got a new set of tyres, which helps a lot though.
The trouble with Eco mode is that it turns the DS into a 125 or maybe a 250. Traction control would allow much safer enjoyment of more of that torque in the wet. The roads are often wet here in England.
With so much torque available, when the tyre let's go it can spin up very quickly and you're on the floor before you know it.
I often don't bother with Eco mode because I lose the feeling that my bike has a bit of umpfh. I'm capable of riding to the conditions but then I'll forget once in a while and push it too much.
Then there's the oil and gravel that we often can't see until it's too late, especially in the dark.
I hope traction control is at the top of the list for the 2018 models. It's the kind of thing that could save a few lives and sell a few more bikes too.
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probably haven't worn in the tires enough yet. they are very slippery on the edges when new. just a slight over application of throttle and whooops. you know the rest.
laters,
laramie ;)
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Hope they do add rider aids beyond ABS and that they it the *right way*, with variable level of assist and an "off" setting for those very few times most of us truly won't benefit from it. It's just silly to not want to have something that could save my bacon only to enjoy not having it in an off-road or track situation that I would just about never encounter anyway (at any other time there is simply no reason for it to be absent other than cost). A good aid still allows plenty of control and only kicks-in when the rider' ability is exceeded. Even racing bikes on and off road these days rely on aids to increase their performance. There is simply no valid argument other than cost for not having them these days...
...I sincerely hope they don't add any rider aids.
One of the reasons why I love riding so much is that you still have to take it upon you and deal with the forces of physics without a computer automating your ride.
Rider7
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I'm with Rider7 that I don't see a need for these aids. In fact the FXS I've got on order will be the first bike I've ever owned with ABS. Us old guys learned to ride without them. (Only last month I locked up the front under emergency braking on cold tarmac and tyres. Managed to save it - with a little bit of luck too of course.)
Getting back on topic... Sorry to hear about your off, Duskfire. Glad to hear you're unharmed and seem to be taking it well.
I know a Honda dealer who trashed a Fireblade with 0.3 miles on the clock under similar circumstances. He was just about to hand it over to a customer.
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I have had ABS on a couple of BMWs in the past and also have traction control and cornering ABS on my latest BMW. I have never felt any of these features being activated while I am riding. So far they appear to be a waste of money and add extra weight to my motorcycle to me. ??? I might also add that I have "semi-active" automatic suspension on my R12RS and I can't tell any difference in its operation compared with the "dumb" suspension that I have on my other motorcycles. Frankly, I just don't get a lot of these latest electronic devices. To me they seem more like marketing promotions and a way to charge more money for the product. ??? Just one more thing to go wrong. ::) I like a simple life where I get to make all of my riding choices and suffer the consequences according. Otherwise how can you learn from your mistakes? ;)
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I have a 2015 FX 5.7 and almost lost it coming off of grass and goosing it on the pavement. It left quite a long curvy black streak before I got it shut down! Definitely scary. Sorry you got hurt. Hopefully will heal quickly. I use the custom mode to keep the power under better control. Of course I Do love the ability to wheelie! It is definitely the most fun bike I've owned.
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I'm glad you're healthy and sharing the story. We can all benefit to know more about the importance of a good helmet, protective riding gear, and crash protection equipment on a bike.
I did have my leathers, shoes, gloves and helmet on, but regular jeans for what was only going to be a <10 mile trip :( unfortunately my hip is what got scraped, and the location of my shoulder armor didn't do me much good on my arm, but I've got skin there still so no complaints lol. I'm actually not feeling as sore today as I thought I would. Ordered new mirrors last night..
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Feeling very sorry for you duskfire, glad you and you're bike are ok, well at least more or less.
I don't want to get into the details here, but I've laid down a Zero as well. No one around to impress, but ignoring all warnings to use sport mode without being used to an electric powertrain. Thankfully it was a low speed and with only minor damage, but I've learned a lesson.
Will take part in a drive&security training by the end of April to get more experience and test out the limits with my FXS under controlled conditions.
Take care!
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yup, only takes once. as a dez, dirt rider i quickly realized that what would be a laughable get off in the dirt, can really mess you up on the tarmac.
pants and shoes are typically your biggest issues. pants are tough to deal with unless your packing a set of "over-pants." it's hard to find a pair of ballistic pants that can survive an off without skinning you alive, without looking ridiculous. unless you work as mechanic or plumber, this probably won't work for your office attire.
shoes though can be dealt with. there are lot's of "reinforced" biker shoes out there. i currently use the FLY Racing M16 (https://www.google.com/search?q=fly+bike+shooes&oq=fly+bike+shooes&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.12248j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=fly+racing+m16). i got the black and grey ones and they are pretty non-shilaunt but as soon as you put them on you can tell they aint your normal tennis shoes. crush proof soles, ankle support and bracing, and abrasion resistant fabric. they are pretty tough and are tolerable enough to wear all day.
as always it's a balance of risk vs. reward. you're the only one you can decide where to draw the lines.
laters,
laramie ;)
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Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT: EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control." It is your right wrist and your BRAIN. Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist. That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes. The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.
So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings. The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators. Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.
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Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT: EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control." It is your right wrist and your BRAIN. Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist. That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes. The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.
So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings. The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators. Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.
Ouch bro, that's some cold hard truth there! ;) Like I said, there's a big difference between a linnier torque curve of the Zero's from the regular curve of an ICE bike, the accident didn't occur because I was expecting the machine to overcome my short comings, I'm an experienced rider, with a lot of different makes and models under my belt. It occurred because I put the thing in "deathtrap" setting without being used to it in eco. As I see you have a regular sport, there's something to be said for the difference in your torque settings and my SR, maybe you wouldn't have let the people egg you on so much, but I'm willing to bet if you had been in the same situation minutes into your first ride, and had made the mistake to put it into Sport mode so early with little experience on an electric anything, you may have been caught off guard too. I had even waited to be straightened out from my corner, and was barley slanted, I didn't try to wheelie it or anything, just a smooth twist, but a little bit too far of a twist on a slick road.
No reason to be so harsh
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Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT: EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control." It is your right wrist and your BRAIN. Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist. That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes. The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.
So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings. The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators. Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.
I've already worked out the apologetics for why Zero's don't yet offer traction control (R&D costs of nearly 7 figures, mainly), so won't repeat that here. I will agree that all my fishtails did not wind up with me laying down the bike; shifting weight into the footpegs and easing off the throttle has always been sufficient so far.
But I will say that it's hard to train any person walking into a dealership to mind a Zero well enough on a demo ride or as a new owner. The recent thread about a salvage title from a demo ride crash I think is illustrative.
There might be software compromises like:
- Allowing different roll-on torque curve settings (exposing Sevcon features through the app) so dealers can avoid getting their bikes trashed while still impressing the customer.
- Use another Sevcon setting to limit the rate of wheel spin-up (RPMs per second as I recall) as a kind of traction control. Probably again with an override in the app or by the dealer.
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I'm with Rider7 that I don't see a need for these aids. In fact the FXS I've got on order will be the first bike I've ever owned with ABS. Us old guys learned to ride without them. (Only last month I locked up the front under emergency braking on cold tarmac and tyres. Managed to save it - with a little bit of luck too of course.)
Getting back on topic... Sorry to hear about your off, Duskfire. Glad to hear you're unharmed and seem to be taking it well.
I know a Honda dealer who trashed a Fireblade with 0.3 miles on the clock under similar circumstances. He was just about to hand it over to a customer.
You don't have a SR coming so you don't know what those of us who do are speaking of. I ride a R1 too and it doesn't go around spinning the rear with no warning like the SR does. It won't happen generally on dry pavement unless you're leaned over or making a turn from one street to another. On the slightest of damp streets, it'll break loose when you least expect it. Your FXS doesn't have the same torque to give you the issues we're complaining about.
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Brian, I missed your post on the 7 figure R & D costs for traction control. Would you mind posting a link please? I like your suggestions for the rpm rate of increase limit, I'm sure that would help a lot.
Let's not forget that part of the reason we need rider aids like traction control is because the performance of bikes has improved dramatically over the years. Also, there isn't a single ICE bike that can deliver maximum torque instantly at the flick of a wrist. Unless you're already at optimal revs, in which case you're already on it because the bike is screaming. Then the torque drops. Very few bikes can deliver the kind of torque an SR delivers in the first place and they all have fatter tyres.
It's just so much easier to get into trouble with all that instant torque. If you want to test your mettle on every single ride you can always turn traction control off. What's the point though? Aren't you better off being able to enjoy the bike more fully without worrying that you'll overcook it and kill yourself? The thrill of motorcycling is being able to accelerate and corner quickly. Traction control helps most riders get the most out of their bikes whilst having a safety net. We know we've overdone it because we can feel the traction control or see a light flickering. The backend steps out for a fraction of a second rather than as long as our reactions take. That can make the difference between an increased heart rate and no heart rate.
Zeros are also predominantly commuter bikes. I know I'm not always at my best on my way to work or back. Easy to not notice a fresh diesel spill in the dark. Impossible to spot sometimes.
In fact I'd much rather learn the limits of my bike with the assistance of traction control and dial it down as I get more competent and have the right opportunity. It can be thought of as a valuable tool for learning how to ride better without as much risk.
I have much more fun playing an F1 game with a few driving assists switched on. I can concentrate on enjoying the circuit, going round the bends with the right line and going faster than I would otherwise. How many of us reach the levels of proficiency that would make us quicker without the assists? None at all probably. Give an F1 driver a bit of clever traction control and I'll bet they post better lap times. That's why they ban it. They wouldn't spin off the track as much and that's what spectators like.
I think people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that computers do a better job of applying power and braking than humans could ever hope to achieve. They also make driving and riding safer and, I argue, more fun when well implemented. Brains just aren't good enough anymore. Unless you don't mind going slower and at much greater risk of getting killed. I know what I find more enjoyable.
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Well said Bonkers!
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Brian, I missed your post on the 7 figure R & D costs for traction control. Would you mind posting a link please? I like your suggestions for the rpm rate of increase limit, I'm sure that would help a lot.
Apparently I ranted less about it than I probably thought about it:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6329.msg48833#msg48833 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6329.msg48833#msg48833)
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5993.msg45126#msg45126 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5993.msg45126#msg45126)
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5072.msg34904#msg34904 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5072.msg34904#msg34904)
The general gist is that whatever traction control does has to interfere inside the motor controller, and at the time I had not properly understood enough from the Sevcon manual which I was researching to figure out how reverse gearing worked (which turned out to have some bug in the 2016 DSR for reasons I have an idea about but haven't received a fix/answer for).
In any case, the point I had was that for Zero to make a traction control system, it'd have to be really proprietary and require custom programming of the Sevcon controller against the rear wheel speed sensor, and no off the shelf Bosch system would do it, and I know they paid a lot of money for the Bosch equipment. Getting that through US DOT and EU/etc regulations would also add money and time to the project. (The OEM has to make sure the feature doesn't backfire and kill people or cause the bike to go dead.) If you count engineers dedicated to developing it and the money required for testing and certification against everything else Zero ought to do, you can see how it hasn't made the cut yet.
Anyway, the gen4 manual has (among many interesting little features like "Inching" meant for nudging forklifts around) a section on Drivability Profiles. Search the PDF for 291E for "speed limit ramp rates". This is mainly to avoid locking up the wheel but I think it works in a positive direction, too, especially if the setting is reduced sufficiently.
One would hope that these could be set up with the Sevcon DVT software so that one of Zero's modes could select it.
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All good valid opinions here,
Just a quick compliment to everybody here on this forum.
I must make a huge compliment to everybody here on this forum.
Usually by the fourth or so reply, shit is flying through the air in an appalling way in other forums, unless it is a professional one.
This generally speaking doesn't happen here, at least since I have more recently joint this forum and in the threads I have visited.
It is delightful to see that it looks like that people who are interested in good, new concepts of transportation or others for that matter seem to have more brains and communication skills than the general social media addicted cell phone head down masses.
I love how all these different opinions are sitting here peacefully next to each other, and how we can have a really nice exchange about our preferences without ripping eachother's heads off.
Now this is a long post but written from my heart. I hope it resonates with some of you, because it touches the "real" reasons why I ride and will ride until I die or they only built fool proof bikes.
Now for electronic regulating systems.
Everything fails eventually and I for my part having grown up with only manual gear boxes, no power steering, no power windows, no AC, etc, etc.... must say that although all this automation is kind of, "wow... how nice is that" for a moment,
that every time I drive a car with traction control, I get a huge surge of general displeasure when it kicks in and my need to actually drive that damn thing is actually completely killed and I feel like I actually don't have the same responsibility anymore I thought I have negotiating a turn.
No that darn thing is doing it for me, the one thing that can go wrong, cannot go wrong anymore. Ahhhhh...... that is scary.
That's why it's called negotiating a turn, not I don't care, my bike will sort it out turn.
I tried turning the anti skid, anti slip, anti drift and anti drive systems all off to actually get a feel for the vehicle I am driving. Heck, no way, they manage to keep at least one anti somewhat in there and it feels even weirder and more alienating to what "driving" is supposed to feel like in the first place.
It makes driving no driving but "simply get there".
I remember when ABS came out, people were actually having accidents because they thought ABS meant having super brakes.
So two things.
There will be Teslas and the likes in about 10 years that will be economically not viable to repair anymore because of malfunctioning automatic ass wipe systems build in the seats.
They have blind spot warning systems now on cars. That must be for people that have a cervical spine injury and cannot clear their dead spot manually anymore.
And then they have..... oh wait these freaking things are supposed to drive us without our input all together.....ahhhhhhh....
I am a helicopter pilot instructor and evertime I flew by instruments (simulated conditions) or with aircraft that have autopilot, I started hating flying instantly.
I don't want to hate riding, because sooner or later you won't be able to turn the ass wiper off on your Zero either because of popular demand, so they can sell bikes with a torque curve that without proper training no one can handle and shouldn't.
If it keeps people from riding a powerful bike, sorry guys, that is just my, however questionable opinion, GOOD.
No one suggests to have a rider with minimal experience (less than 10 years of constant riding of different handable bikes) to go to a Ducati dealership and test ride or buy a 170 hp rocket either. So what are we discussing here?
I rode every single Ducati Model on their shop floor and the reason why I shelled out exactly the same money for a Zero R model is because it gave me the same fascinating "time machine effect" to have torque that is actually a game changer in someone's lifestyle.
Plus the overall smashing genius of a maintenance and noise free time machine.
But guys, the Zero R bikes are not for beginners. They don't need to be tamed for beginners.
They are too torquey (how do tiny spell that) and too expensive for people who don't have a lot of experience, and I mean a lot.
These are rockets and to be treated just like one.
There is a reason why I spent 33 years on bikes, winter (Germany) summer (Germany same shit weather hahaha).
I like having something left that not everybody can do without having to actually make some serious and very natural survival decisions.
If you take the rest risk (which in my opinion is 5-10%) out of flying or riding a motorcycle, I'll stay home, get fat and play stupid video games all day long.
Yes, you can die on a motorcycle more easily, but that is actually what I find extremely essential to make riding more attractive than driving in a car with 22 airbags.
There is something that somehow switches in a human being when everything is perceived to be safe.
There is a fine line at what point it is stupid to take unnecessary risks, like flying a helicopter or airplane that isn't airworthy (happens every single second while I am typing), but deciding to buy a Zero and having it packed full of stuff that actually make it not a Zero anymore but just another vehicle with 22 airbags.... NO.... please, I implore you.
Even that ABS makes me nervous, since it kills my instinct to having to negotiate the traction of my tires loaded up with braking forces.
I almost had an accident during my test ride of every single Zero model last year because that stupid ABS completely surprises me on a FXS and didn't give me the ability to actually utilize otherwise available traction because it was pretty sluggish to recover and give me the bike back as it should be. I got so pissed at the Bosch engineers in that moment.
I locked up my front ZRX-1200 three times already, (never happened really on my smaller bikes, only the rear of course) and every time my instinct did the right thing and let it come back up and be ok. And that bike has 490 lbs wet or so.
Proper rider training and for that matter driver training is not optional and there will never be an electronic system that can substitute the dangerous attitude that especially young riders and drivers will develop because these awesome systems save their asses pretty much everyday once they get used to it being there.
Automation generally can be dangerous when it forfeits actual skills that were never learned.
Now let me get into my onstar connected automated airbag full body suit and on my Bluetooth motion sensored, anti everything with step control, fart protection, fully anti slip and fun protected ultra future everybody simply hold on to my auto balanced, un crashable, quatrouple sensored, i effin.. phone app controlled wing suit twisted full force what the f..... is all that shit that keeps on giving me twenty thousand stupid control lights and status messages so I can not even see the road anymore bike.....
You all know I am kidding.
I hear everybody's opinion as a valid opinion and accept it.
I don't have to agree, but there is a very true, very powerful essence of keeping us people connected with our visceral senses to what we are actually doing and you cannot have 100% safety and expect the same experience from it.
It will be castrated fun, Disney Land fun, not the fun that I am looking for when I am getting on my bike every day to actually experience some of the essential things of life.
And yes, every time I pull the collective and push the cyclic forward to take off in a helicopter I am 100 % in control of what the aircraft is doing, no computer is helping me and that is how I like it, and that is how I like my Zero to be.
And so far, I have not been disappointed.
That is actually why I shelled out the extra money to get the extra brunt and I keep it on "custom" cranked up everhing all the time.
All ABS, slip slide and stupid control aside, at the end of the day I am responsible to get off this thing alive or not and I LOVE that element of riding my Electric Lady.
I call her a "Sleek Cat on Drugs"
Honestly, I cannot wait to see the even more powerful and ravaging versions coming out, I won't be able to afford it, but I like those choices in our lives.
Please don't script it away with code for a, in my eyes, false sense of control.
I rode 178, 200, 500, 600, 750 and 1200 bikes for decades and took cornering classss (Keith Code's superbike school) before I was ready to drag my knees and to slide out of turns under power on dry asphalt without braking a sweat but with a huge grin on my face.
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have your cake and eat it too:)
My advice.
We should follow the same principle that has worked for decades.
If one isn't ready for a liter bike, don't buy one.
And believe me, almost no one is ready for a liter bike and actually be able to ride it properly.
A Zero that has an R in it is a liter bike.
Please don't castrate my Cat ::)
Rider7
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Brian,
Thanks for getting a bit into the details and intricacies of the issues of traction control development on the Zeros.
Your issues are music in my ears.
Will the force never be with you and your engineering colleagues at Zero to accomplish that task.
Ref. to my long ass post arguing that traction control would be killing my cat ;D ;D
Hahahah...
Rider7
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Thanks Brian. It's easy to assume that traction control is a fairly straightforward feature to implement, especially on an electric bike.
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Just another thought: Of all the electric bikes you might expect to have traction control, the Lightning LS218 would be the ideal candidate. It doesn't have it and yet the BMW C evolution scooter does, I believe. No doubt the scooter benefits from the development money thrown at the cars.
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For my 2c worth, I love the fact that the SR does NOT have traction control. If it ever gets it then I want to be able to turn it off completely.
If an SR it too powerful for you buy an S, or use the app to set custom mode to power levels you can handle (turn the torque down so it cant break traction).
For me I ride 100% in custom with everything to the max except regen which is set to about 30% on throttle off and 100% with brakes on.
On wet days I just don't turn the throttle so much, its called skill, not that I am that skillful like a lot of riders, but I have a bit and its enough to handle the SR's power. I have had it break traction on wet days a couple of times, a bit of a wiggle, power back, then keep going. I love knowing I have power. I think I would love the new 2017 SR even more than mine.
Having said all this I ride my SR very conservatively most of the time, but now and a gain I like to flex its muscles.
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I have had ABS on a couple of BMWs in the past and also have traction control and cornering ABS on my latest BMW. I have never felt any of these features being activated while I am riding. So far they appear to be a waste of money and add extra weight to my motorcycle to me. ??? I might also add that I have "semi-active" automatic suspension on my R12RS and I can't tell any difference in its operation compared with the "dumb" suspension that I have on my other motorcycles. Frankly, I just don't get a lot of these latest electronic devices. To me they seem more like marketing promotions and a way to charge more money for the product. ??? Just one more thing to go wrong. ::) I like a simple life where I get to make all of my riding choices and suffer the consequences according. Otherwise how can you learn from your mistakes? ;)
Here's the trouble with that mentality:
Most riders will never get into a situation where electronic aids will save them from death.
We know this because there's not a 100% mortality rate among riders pre-aid.
So, at best aids can save a portion of avoidable rider deaths from a small % of the overall rider population, as well as a few embarrassing low sides. If the aids work correctly, they should be 100% unobtrusive in nearly all situations, save the ones where they prevent complete loss of control of the bike.
Is it worth the weight, expensive, and complication to save a small number of rider lives per year?
I think the answer to that has to be "yes".
Are there other downsides, such as training lazy riders or allowing people to compensate for the aids, potentially allowing them to over-ride the actual mechanical grip of the tires?
Maybe. But that's a longer discussion; and the same argument btw applies to all mandatory safety devices and improvements in cars as well, and as bitter as some people seem to be about those, on the whole they have saved a huge number of lives.
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Let's look at it from another perspective: eco mode vs. sport. How many of you "expert" riders here think Eco mode on SR is good on wet or otherwise slippery condition?
Why not use our "brains and wrists" instead, and keep it in Sport mode all the time? After all, its all rider skill and thrill, right? Because it makes sense to have the bike adapt to the conditions and work with the rider to get the most of it, and not to fight with the rider, requiring extreme skill and attention to keep upright. Otherwise it gets unnecessarily tiring and dangerous.
That's what rider aides are for. Riding modes like our Eco mode are "rider aids". And Eco is an example of one such aid that doesn't go far enough in some aspects (like, can't detect and deal with wheel slip on acceleration or overbrakng), yet cripples power and speed... I call this intrusive and overly restrictive, just like the factors some are complaining about for other aides and therefore reject them. Yet folks like having the Eco option on their bikes and use it. Let's be honest with ourselves - skill is good, skills and tools are better. Or we'd be still in the trees picking bananas, maybe stuck in the stone age, since who the heck needs aides to deal with mother nature and wildlife ;)
Again, cost aside, traction control and other such aides are a safety net we will all need and be thankful for at some point. Usually, as MostlyBonkers said, when our brains and bodies simply can't deal with a situation fast enough. Everything can be misused, sure, but that's a poor argument to not have it...
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My problem with a lot of these recent electronic "aids" is that to me they appear to be hyped excessively by the press and I really don't think they are fully "baked" yet. If you listen to the manufacturers, the press and salespeople, you would think that modern electronic aids and other gadgets will practically ride your bike for you and you can sit there listening to your music and watching your GPS, while letting the gadgets save your bacon if something unexpected happens - like running into sand while riding around a corner. ABS, traction control and similar recent computer-controlled "safety" nets might help you in some circumstances, but you are better off relying on your own brain and experience when riding a motorcycle. In 800,000 miles of riding I have had only one accident, when I hit a patch of oil while rounding a steep down-hill hairpin. Neither ABS nor traction control would have kept me from dropping my K100RS that time.
Plus, it irritates me that when legislators and regulators hear about all of these "safety" devices, they want to mandate them for all vehicles. Personally, I would prefer to have the option to select the safety accessories that I want on my vehicle and compare the perceived benefit of having them installed against the cost of doing so. To that end, I used to special order my BMW motorcycles from the factory without ABS, but now that is no longer a choice because European regulators have made ABS mandatory for all motorcycles and you can no longer order one without that feature.
But I still have my Royal Enfield. It has no ABS or much of anything else for that matter, including even a trip-meter on the speedometer. But it does have a kick starter, just in case the electrons fail to do their job. ;)
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I tend to be among the "don't protect me from myself" crowd. In my mind, part of being an adult is knowing how to keep your ass out of trouble (it isn't worth showing off for friends is one of the more practical guidelines there).
OTOH....I was skeptical of anti-lock brakes when they first showed up on cars, too. But in the 20 years or so I've had that feature on cars I've owned, at least three times they've kept me out of fender-benders. Otherwise they've been unobtrusive to the point of being unnoticed. I can't think of any time they've actually saved my life, but it is at least theoretically possible.
There's always a fair amount of reluctance to adopting a new technique. I don't want my car driving itself, but the fact is, Teslas drive themselves more safely than the owners of the cars do, and that technology is still in its infancy.
As an EE and firmware engineer, I wonder how ABS/traction control works on motorcycles at all. On a car, you have three other wheels to serve as reference points to decide if one of them is skidding/sliding, but on a motorcycle, you have only one other wheel to compare to. Is the rear wheel turning faster than the front because it's slipping under throttle or is the front wheel locked up? You'd have to rely much more heavily on transient conditions (it was turning quite a bit faster 1/2 second ago, so it's probably starting to lock up) because you have only the one external reference. Nonetheless, by all accounts both ABS and traction control work well on motorcycles if done properly.
It's pretty clear these things work and benefit us, if not immediately, then once the bugs get all worked out. I guess I'd have to say "color me skeptical but open-minded".
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As far as "protect us from ourselves" goes, IF a rider is competent and attentive, then these protections are seldom needed.
Unfortunately, there are far too many people who don't pay attention and are not competent. These people swear that they
don't need helmets, or when forced to wear one, wear the absolute least that they can get away with. These people are the
reason that real riders ( and drivers ) get saddled with all of the things we have today. They crash, end up with major
hospital stays, brain dead etc. WE have to pick up the tab for all of that.
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@Doug S if you have those references, say from hall sensors or gyroscopes, is there too much torque to effectively do 2-wheeled stability control?
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Sorry, I didn't mean to say or imply it can't be done...people are doing it, so clearly it's possible. I'm just saying I find it impressive that it works as well as it does. There are a lot of smart people out there doing things that way surpass me!
To answer your question, if you know the rear wheel is slipping because the pavement can't support the amount of torque that's being put out, it's always possible to modulate the throttle to control that. Either the rider or the electronics can do it, the result is the same. The trick is knowing exactly what's called for, in a fraction of a second.
Sure, more sensors help. Gyros, positions sensors and the like are all great. Plus there's other information available from the bike. In the example I gave, if the throttle opening is 0 and the brakes are on, it seems much more likely that the front wheel is locking up than that the rear is spinning. But what if the throttle opening is high AND the brakes are applied? Do you manage that by modulating the throttle, the front brake, or both?
It would be a hell of a design challenge, which would be a lot of fun and very intimidating at the same time.
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Sorry you went through that, OP. Must not have been fun to deal with on every level.
For what it's worth: I've taken several safety courses and attended the Yamaha racing school. I mildly chuckle when anybody say's to me: there are two types of riders, those who've gone down and those who will. While somewhat amusing, that axiom is flat out garbage. I know several long-time riders who've never gone down, including myself. Not bragging (and certainly not welcoming the Gods of Karma to come and get me for typing this), but with continuous conscious effort and attenuated critical-thinking and decision-making, nearly all mishaps are either avoidable, mitigable, or at least, manageable.
Smooth and steady throttle and braking inputs, trail braking into corners (and off the line as in your case, OP) so as to load the tires and compress the forks & stiffen the frame for the best possible lean geometry and traction, constant situational awareness and monitoring the environmental indicators, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
No rider is perfect, but all riders have an opportunity to use scientifically and anecdotally proven best practices to decrease their chances of disaster.
All that said, I would not have purchased my SR if it didn't have the torque that it does and the delivery of it that it does. To be more direct, the sole reason I purchased the SR is b/c I feel like TRON with all that instant torque and none of my other rides (past and present) even come close to approximating it. You can count me in the camp that no, there is not too much torque.
Had I the bankroll for an Energica, you can bet I'd be over on that forum currently talking about torque and erections and whatnot.
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I recommend that new riders don't take advice from me. ;) I am a Luddite, a Contrarian and an Old Dog. And you know what they say about "old dogs". ::)
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Had I the bankroll for an Energica, you can bet I'd be over on that forum currently talking about torque and erections and whatnot.
Rofl you win the forum with this comment!
Anyways I didn't mean it had too much torque I meant I used too much of it lol. I bought the SR primarily because I got a steal of a deal on it, I would of been happy on a regular S. But I've been on liter bikes and various medium sized bikes and I generally prefer a lighter bike to one that weighs a f-ton, is the SR weighed more than the S I would of held out, but since it didn't I went for the "monster"
Anyways all posts aside, I'll play around on the safe side until I get used to having so much instant power at my disposal. It's been a sore couple of days lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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As an EE and firmware engineer, I wonder how ABS/traction control works on motorcycles at all. On a car, you have three other wheels to serve as reference points to decide if one of them is skidding/sliding, but on a motorcycle, you have only one other wheel to compare to. Is the rear wheel turning faster than the front because it's slipping under throttle or is the front wheel locked up? You'd have to rely much more heavily on transient conditions (it was turning quite a bit faster 1/2 second ago, so it's probably starting to lock up) because you have only the one external reference. Nonetheless, by all accounts both ABS and traction control work well on motorcycles if done properly.
It's pretty clear these things work and benefit us, if not immediately, then once the bugs get all worked out. I guess I'd have to say "color me skeptical but open-minded".
I think you guessed it... its Primarily wheel speed delta... atleast on the Bosch system.. it sets a max decel rate it will allow based on speed with assumptions for max traction possible.
thats why on the BMW S1000RR on slicks on a track, you drop major time with ABS off vs on... you cant take advantage of the slicks with it on.
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Interesting thread. So much technofobia amongst early adaptors of electric motorbikes...
Lets just face it: even the throttle responce of the bike uses algorithms to give you the control needed for the bike. Adding anti spin could be nice- if the implementation is good. Bad implementation = boring bike, but this is not an argument for not gaining that ability. Cost is, but once made-and perfected- code can be reused to great extent. I cannot think of any sound reason why i would not have ABS or traction control once it is well implemented and as long as i can turn it off when i feel like. Even if you have ridden 50 years, without an accident, the day you were caught off guard you may still be happy that you had it. Most likely you would never had known it was there unless deliberately testing it. (i've certainly tested my ABS, but not in traffic.)
Personally my SR is my first bike. It is a great first bike. It is probably meaner to experienced over-confident riders than beginners. Before i got my license i practiced on this bike. It took some practice before i adjusted the custom torque past the eco mode, but the fact that i had that option made it great while learning. Nowdays i use all modes. Eco mode mostly for regen downhill, sport when i ride for fun, and custom for commuting and rainy conditions. Torque in custom i set to approxymately 70% to have better control in dense traffic. Regen is only 5% if any to have good control between cars and in slippery condition. This, along with fixed gear, makes the bike much more favourable than ICE for a beginner.
Thats my 5 cents. :P
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@yhafting
Yeah I've got to agree, I went from a sports bike to this, and like I said in an earlier reply, I've been on a lot of different bikes and consider myself an experienced rider, but my mentality had a core conflict, I am inexperienced on the Zero SR, it's a new bike that doesn't behave as others I've ridden does. Like a previous poster commented an R1 won't step out like that on dry ground. It's simply a different beast, and my post here is mostly to remind those who share the "I know what I'm doing" mentality to stop and remember it's a new category, it's not the R1 they left in the garage.
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All,
I like your opinions and your reasons for and against traction control etc.
@yhafting, not sure if your term technofobia is really applicable since pretty much everybody here displays exactly the opposite by embracing this new transportation method (technology) so early on.
Here is my issue with traction and other controls besides that I wrote half a page already about this.
Being able to turn it off unfortunately doesn't cut it.
I'd like to have ABS off all the time but..... I will not be able to endure the constant process of holding buttons down and wait until something turns off before I can begin my ride.
I want to hop on my bike in a moment's notice and zip away.
The slight delay for the battery contactor to close is almost too much.
And pulling the fuse won't do it either, since I'd have this constant red light on the dashboard. Although now that I mentioned it, I'll try pulling the fuse and see how much the light pisses me off.
I don't think that anybody can really understand what I mean unless they would actually take a bike and explore what it does when you simply overbrake the wheels and learn to sense it and recover from it.
I rode my bikes through decades of ice and snow and there is no substitute for the feeling you develop when you have free range over your riding controls unhampered by technology.
ABS is not necessary and actually dangerous because it doesn't let you develop that essential feeling for loading up a tire and going behyond it in situations in which you should even get close to that in the first place.
Take a bike, lock the front tire and recover. It is not rocket surgery.
I don't think we need to talk about the rear period. Letting the rear slide under breaking and actually modulate it is not just fun, but also an essential skill in bike riding.
Learning to properly trail brake into turns is essential for advanced cornering. It increases stability and handling hence safety of your bike.
There are tons of good articles out there that deal with that technique.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/28/the-brake-light-initiative-treatise-on-motorcycle-control-using-your-braking-skills (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/28/the-brake-light-initiative-treatise-on-motorcycle-control-using-your-braking-skills)
https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/ (https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/)
Anyway, back to where we were,
I am all for technology, I am going to install TPMS (tire pressure monitoring) soon, because I am too lazy to check my tire pressure, which I do all the time regardless of being lazy.
So, I'll let technology help me with pleasure.
But, bikes are attractive because they can do thing that cars simply cannot do.
And they are attractive because they allow you to make choices that are almost impossible to make nowadays when surrounded by public life.
Almost every normal person (non rider) makes a comment about riding in reference that it is dangerous.
Frankly, it is as dangerous as you make it minus the unlucky 5-10% shit happens factor that can cost you your life even in a car with 22 airbags.
There is a very fine difference in the essence doing something that is 100% safe (although theoretically that doesn't actually exist) or having to live with a fact that if you are not smart and careful it will bite you.
By the way, there are a huge amounts of situations in which traction control on or off doesn't even matter, since I have to take the responsibility for myself and for others and slow the f.... down and make sure no matter what that I won't be the idiot throwing my bike through other traffic participants like I am bowling.
The situations where traction control would activate are all situations where I'd simply crash the bike and be ok anyway, since I am not doing it where I could be taken volley by oncoming traffic, or be shredded by 18 wheelers that are directly behind me or, or, or....
It is part of reading the street, gauging your speed difference to others and always minimizing the situations where there is no out.
I maybe am in situations where there is no alternative, the oh shit bail out 2% of my entire riding time.
If there is no out, I am not there by either staying back, or mostly just by clearing out using the Zero's tremendous time machine function (torque).
Any turn or intersection I am approaching I always visualize where the heck I would fly and how much energy I'd have to get rid off by either laying it down, or trying to ride it through my alternative path that I already have picked. I even prepare the worst situation, oncoming traffic left turn, the classic killer, I watch them, prepare to brake the shit out of my bike and then ride around them if possible and if not, either lay it down and bump them, or prepare to hit them and jump as high as I can to clear the car.
I is about the mental preparation.
If I cannot live with that analysis, I slow the f... down and reduce any possible mishap to simply a bit over "bicycle road rash".
And yes, I slow the f... down quite often.
When you watch You tube videos of bike crashes, I notices that 80% give or take of all those horrific crashes, where most guys say, well that was the car's fault is actually not true.
In most of those cases their differential speed was way out of proportion. Yes, technically the car was at fault, but in all reality, they are charging through traffic like idiots and get cut off because no one has to suspect anyone coming through lanes of traffic that fast with no time to react or correct once the fatal mistake and error was made to cross that path. I get a kick out of seeing the same behavior all the time.
I'd say too high of differential speed to your surroundings are the number one killer of bikers. You are not giving anybody involved a chance. And it doesn't really matter if technically the car shouldn't have crossed your path.
Dead or paralyzed is dead or paralyzed...
So, what I am saying is that with systems that are constantly taking over when you overreached the physical laws, you'll never actually feel what riding is all about.
You're not riding, you're transporting your body from point A to point B.
Sorry, and it's ok if you want to disagree with me, obviously it's ok, but I want to be in charge when it comes to controlling a machine.
That is why they gave me such a great algorithm to be able to torque my rear wheel until I lose traction.
That is on purpose and is essential, or else it's not what I want from riding at this point of my riding life.
I highly recommend and suggest to anybody to either buy a less torquey bike, or dial the modes down for a long, long time until they are really, really, ready.
But traction control will diminish the idea of an awesome motorbike.
And wait until it begins to fail, that's when the real fun starts.
Awesome thread, great viewpoints, lovely discussion.
Rider7
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In my opinion if you think any bike has too much power or torque for you to ride without crashing you should reconsider your decision. 250cc streebikes exist for a reason. The zero is nice that you can adjust it as you wish,but honestly the zero isn't a high performance bike and if you cant manage it without traction control you should stick to 4 wheels
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I don't understand why people get so preachy and condescending about rider aids. For all of you old school purists I say fine, keep thinking that you can outperform ABS in every panic situation 100% of the time. To that I say more power to you and I hope you're as good as you think you are. I am an older rider who has lived through a lot of technological advancements and I applaud them. I started on kick-start two-stroke carbureted bikes with drum brakes in the 70's. I have only come off a bike one time and that was when I was young and stupid and no rider aids can fix that. Since then I have developed into a decent motorcyclist who can read and react to almost all road situations to avoid trouble and I have done that (so far). However, even the best and most experienced riders can get caught out at times. Once on the Zero I was accelerating away from a light when suddenly the bike started to fishtail. It had rained the day before but the road was dry and there was nothing that I could see to cause me to lose traction. I came very close to losing control and going down but by gradually easing off the throttle I straightened out and recovered. Now there had to have been something on the road to cause the fishtail - perhaps a wet spot that I didn't see or some oil on the road. Whatever it was I missed it and it nearly put me down. Maybe a sharper-eyed rider would have seen something, maybe not - I just know that if the bike had traction control it would have been a non-issue. For all of you that feel that rider aids take away the essence of motorcycling there are plenty of new bikes with safety systems that are fully defeatable. I recently tested two such bikes, a BMW S1000XR and a KTM Super Duke GT. One of the main reasons I am thinking of getting one of those bikes is BECAUSE of the safety systems, which, by the way, are incredibly dialed-in these days. On the BMW I was on the freeway and I downshifted, pinned it and felt the bike starting to power-wheelie - then it gently cut back power just a little a split-second before I did. I was amazed - I am not ashamed to admit that the technology is better than I am. Cornering ABS? I think that's wonderful. If you feel that rider aids dilute the experience don't get a bike that has them, or turn them off. I for one feel that they enhance my riding experience and I can ride with a little more peace of mind. I am very happy to let modern science work for me.
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I never said I was against ABS. Panic braking is a very real problem and it is often done via reflex rather than conscious action, so it makes it very hard to control.
HOWEVER, whacking the throttle wide open at inappropriate times IS a conscious decision. I can (almost) see the value of traction control when you are a professional road racer circulating a track at speeds way above mortal limits, and the difference of a tenth of a second could be the difference between a five-figure bonus pay out, or going home with nothing.
On the STREET, however, ESPECIALLY on an unfamiliar bike, a smart rider rides cautiously until he/she is fully familiar with their new machine. The landmark Hurt Report revealed most motorcycle accidents occurred in the first six months of motorcycle ownership, regardless of the experience of the rider. Something to keep in mind.
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@yhafting, not sure if your term technofobia is really applicable since pretty much everybody here displays exactly the opposite by embracing this new transportation method (technology) so early on.
The technophobia (which i stated because it is a paradox) is likely related to the sense of control. (I like being in control myself) ;). And i can relate to the fear of newer versions being released with dumbed down features that you cannot deselect. I also appreciate your description of why you prefer not using traction control/ ABS.
What i consider a good option would be a tunable traction control that would be selectable (or deselectable) in the custom settings. Actually i would like to have three custom settings, and sport/eco just as default settings..
Personally i think some degree of traction control can be achieved fairly easy, given some dedicated computation power for the feature.
If i were to design a traction control, i would test using acceleration as the measure of whether the feature should engage or not (that is- if enabeled). The acceleration limit could be programmable, ranging from above the acceleration which causes violent wheelies to a most front heavy bike and rider crouching forward, to an acceleration causing wheelies when a person standing at the passenger pegs in an attempt to provoke wheelies. By calculating a moving average on the current speed (or something similar), it should be easy enough to limit torque to the point where acceleration falls below the threshold.
By allowing people to set their own acceleration threshold, the feature could be used both for launch control and prevent violent wheel spins or wheelies. Now it may not be fool proof, (you would still be able to spin as long as the acceleration is small) but it would likely prevent the wheel from sliding out violently in a turn or on a wet/oily spot.
If such a thing worked, it would also be possible to add different settings for different speeds, or allow for fast acceleration enough time to lift the front wheel but not flip the bike entirely. (Probably sacreligious to wheelie enthusiasts, but perhaps good for someone trying to lift the wheel for their first time..)
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Actually, there is already some control built into the Zero already. If not, every time you opened the throttle hard on an SR or a DSR, the 106+ ft/lbs of instant torque would be looping the bike over backwards and you'd be smashing your head...
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I recently got a new set of tyres and now the bike feels more planted. The rear doesn't spin up in conditions it did before. Is that traction control? Most people would just say they're a good set of tyres that help me enjoy the bike more; better handling, better grip, and safer. So what's the difference?
It's nigh on impossible to know the limits of grip unless you're on a circuit and you've been going around it many times. The road surface changes constantly for a start and you don't know the condition of the surface until you're on it. In the dry with decent tyres, most riders won't get close to the limits. In the wet it's completely different. If having torque control means I can accelerate harder and feel confident I won't lose control, then I choose to enjoy my ride and have more fun. Just like a decent set of tyres allow.
It's natural to want to test the limits of a bike and easy to push it too far if you misjudge the conditions a little. I'd much rather see an orange light on the dash to warn me or feel the power reduce before my reactions catch up. We're just human and technology can save our fragile bodies when things go wrong. I don't understand the mentality that suggests we should suffer injury for small errors or road conditions out of our control. If we are going to behave like lunatics, then that's different and no amount of rider aides will stop us getting killed.
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This is all good stuff here, I actually really enjoy this discussion.
Can y'all tell how I enjoy the banter here a bit?
So, don't take it too seriously, we'll all end up doing what we want anyway and have our believes etc..
Just don't push for a general mandatory equipment schedule here...... I have nothing really left that is simple, free, gives you plenty of room to screw up or not.... just what riding should be all about.
If you want it super duper ultra safe, there is your four wheeled friend with 22 air bags.
I saw a bumper sticker once "No airbags, die like a man". I thought it was hilarious.
I think this is a discussion that goes to the core of why we ride and not just about torque and traction control.
It is getting interesting and I want to assure you, although I might come across as a bit of a hard ass about pure riding, I accept, tolerate and hear and read everybody's opinion here and enjoy learning from your points of views.
This morning on my way to work, my rear slipped on dry asphalt in a turn without me having seen anything suspicious and I was smiling under my helmet.
I love having to balance this awesome torque with my wrist.
The reason why there are even articles about why one doesn't need a liter bike is that unless you have learned to actually outride a smaller bike, like a 500, 600 etc..... and really learned to ride the gusts out of it,
on a liter bike, a beginner is pretty much constantly busy to not get surprised by the high torque.
When I got my 1200, I intentionally made the bike powerslide to see what I am dealing with.
Every time it would start sliding, I practiced more to ease off more gradually and actually feel the point at within I could torque it out and just let it slide out into a straight line.
I am doing the same right now with the zero, which in my eyes is a high powered bike @gman669,
how else do you want to categorize 116lbs of torque from zero RPM and 0-60 in the high three or low four second range?
The speed? Who gives a sweet mosquitos bottom about speed after 60,70; 80?.
Any ape can go fast. The DSR is actually still nice and quick all the way up to top speed.
Regarding the consequences, a lot of the riders paint the picture of unless you control this immense torque with technology you're going to be caught by surprise one day and then die or damage yourself.
Why?
There was one poster here who said that it doesn't necessarily hold true that you have to go down eventually.
Although that didn't hold true for me on snow and ice etc.... harmless whipeouts are not crashes.... but I agree in its general tenor.
The amazing thrill of riding is exactly having to take responsibility to really make the right decisions all the time.
If I endorse students for their first solo in a helicopter, guess how many simulated engine failures, that I tried to surprise them with (not in a sneaky, dangerous way of course) on their last training flight, they have to catch.
Yes, 5 out of 5. There is no room for error. If they don't catch every single one, they are slated for rotor stall and be 100% dead if it would happen to them on their first solo flight.
This no room for errors applies to riding a bike and that is why I always see parallels to flying and especially flying helicopters.
You are a risk manager, and historically people are taking more risks when the consequences are either less severe for real or perceived.
I have a great example here.
When you learn to fly in a Hughes 300 (old military training helicopter model, Schweizer 300CB now), there is no throttle governor installed.
You constantly have to monitor, feel, sense, check and hear your rotor RPM since that is the equivalent of your indicated air speed in a fixed wing.
You go to slow, the wings stall and well, in a helicopter, you are 100% dead and it is ugly all the way down to the ground.
So, how do you prevent that?
Simple, don't let your rotor stall, ever.
How do you do that?
Learning to train your senses, your visual scan, your every fiber of your body to automatically control the throttle.
In an R22, you have a throttle governor. It automatically adjusts your engine RPM according to your collective settings and keeps your rotor RPM in the green.
It is a wonderful devise, but dangerous and deadly in a heart beat when it fails, or the pilot inadvertently turns it off (students like to do that sometimes, that is always fun) or you forget to turn it on.
Now, I learned to fly without a governor and guess what, my senses are like the ones from the little rodent from ice age that keeps on hunting the A-corn.
I love the fact that every time I get into one of those non augmented, non automated fully in contact with the air helicopters that it is ALL up to you if you live or die.
Like skydiving. You don't pull your shoot, you are dead... wonderful.
You have to learn where you simply cannot afford to have your bike lose control, period.
If you keep on crashing bikes, you should really listen to the message.
It is not for everyone and that is why it is so awesome.
I inserted the last paragraph before I wrote this here... so... ok, a little disjointed but.... here we go...
On a bike, you can afford to temp the threshold of your traction plenty and if you don't catch it, just go down for crying out loud, lay it down, slide a little.... get back up and simply never, yes, never do that when there is no room for that.
I let my ass slide all over the place and have been doing it for 33 years now, but I never do it where there is no chance to recover from serious damage.
That's all.
Within 33 years, I had one or two totally unexpected slides.
All the other ones I kind of knew they could happen like the one this morning, but guess what, if I would have laid it down, I wouldn't have been dead or seriously injured, hence..... it gave me the smile to work.
Yhafting,
Thanks for sharing my opinion about the issue having to disarm my bike of its protective measures all the time, and although I like your idea of making this "pickable" in the custom modes, it is really just a matter of time that all your high tech is failing and you'll have to update and update and get it scanned and repaired.
It is not a matter if that happens, it is when it happens.
I am already a bit freaked having no real autonomy anymore with this electrical drive train.
There is no fixing on the side of the road anymore, so we are all depending on a real solid, well tested and matured technology which the zero guys seem to have accomplished over the last 10 years.
If all bikes at some point "have to have" the latest and greates slip, slide, anti die features, engineers will be pushed to release systems quicker.
Heck, I have never even heard of cornering ABS, gosh... those Germans again......
I happen to be German, I mean for real... grew up there, and actually we Germans are purists by design thus we have made fun of people who bought automatic transmission cars for years and years.
We call them "Warmduscher", which loosely means, someone who absolutely declines to take anything but warm showers.
Oh well... I know, we are weird.
So, everybody, buy a 250 motocross bike, get some gear and ride the shit out of it and learn to deal with breaking traction.
Breaking traction and knowing when it is ok and when absolutely not will safe your life for real for decades to come.
Trusting your electronic blanket is a false sense of security.
And by the way, my first full lockups on the front happened just recently (a year ago or so) on my heavy 1200 sports bike.
I did really not anticipate it (they said the brakes suck on these Kawaski's), hell that thing began to head towards the ground.
Guess what, yes, I agree, there was no time to react, it was pure reflex from years of having experienced the little skids and slides of the front, the "almost" threw that thing down and so forth.
Without that constant fine tuning of my senses of how much you load a front tire, wich by the way is the key for fast track times, I would have gone down like a clown.
And for good measures, I repeated the same thing twice on this bike within two months, no idea why, I guess I didn't believe it the first two times, and every time, my body reacted exactly like I trained it to react.
I could have never learned that with freaking ABS...... no way, Jose......
I am sure I pinched a couple of people again and made them shake their heads..... Oh, this is fun...... lock it up, slide it, but don't do it where you end up with your foot wrapped around your neck.
Rider7
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I have said more than once that I ride motorcycles as transportation, to get from here to there and back again. While I enjoy riding, I don't do it only for fun, but so that I don't have to drive a car to get to where I want to go. While riding I spend all of my mental processes managing my route, the traffic around me and doing my best to avoid any kind of accident. (Which is one big reason why I don't like to ride with others, as I can't predict what they are going to do and I know that they will not be riding the same way that I do.) So far I have been pretty successful. Which is why I don't feel the need for expensive and complicated gadgets that are supposed to keep me safe. I figure that is what my brain and my experience should be doing.
But that is not to say that the various safety devices that have been mentioned are not very good things for a new rider to have until they acquire enough experience, skills and knowledge to avoid an accident. I just don't want them mandated by government regulators and be forced to have them on my vehicle without me having a choice.
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Which is why I don't feel the need for expensive and complicated gadgets that are supposed to keep me safe. I figure that is what my brain and my experience should be doing.
But that is not to say that the various safety devices that have been mentioned are not very good things for a new rider to have until they acquire enough experience, skills and knowledge to avoid an accident. I just don't want them mandated by government regulators and be forced to have them on my vehicle without me having a choice.
Richard230,
I think you are dead on that your brain and experience keep you safe.
The issue is that you cannot develop feeling and experience with automation.
And especially beginners, who shouldn't be on a bike with 116lbs or torque period, will never be able to develop the only riding skills that will really keep them safe.
Their judgement and their feeling,
and above all, where they can afford to possibly lose traction and kind of play with it and where it could possibly be deadly and they simply need to make sure that it won't happen.
Although I am not for general regulations like this, but we had them in Germany and then Europe for a long time already.
The law doesn't allow young inexperienced riders to ride high powered and high torque bikes for a certain time until they graduate to them. Your license is staggered into classes that restrict the amount of power and CCs you can ride for a certain period of time.
Now, although I grew up before they created that law, and I was happy that I could ride whatever I wanted and be responsible with it, I do believe that something like that is possibly smarter than building technologies that literally don't allow humans to make decisions about the operation of a vehicle anymore for the sake of their safety.
There is really no reason for anybody who doesn't have a good track record and experience to be on a high performance bike.
I would go as far as if you have three major accidents, you need to stay off bikes.
The problem with the safety systems once generally installed, accepted and then also cheap enough, they'll be mandatory and soon, you won't be able to turn them off.
History has shown.
Ok, I'll let it simmer now for a while.
I think I won't be able to convince anybody that rider skills and attitude is what's the real safely tool and not technology.
And no, I am not saying that a human can outperform a well designed system in a quantifiable comparison test,
but in the overall scenario and outcome it can, since ABS for instance cannot sense your corner entry speed etc..... but, I should shut up now, because mark my words....... all that crap is going to come down the line for bikes as well.....
Automated brakes, corner entry speed regulation, lean angle warner.... bla...bla... horrible.....
all of that stuff comes from the a... holes that every day on the streets think they can drive without paying attention and cause accidents.
Honestly, I think that 90% of all accidents are all caused because people simply do not take responsibility for their action.
Same thing here, three accidents and you have to walk in my opinion.
Heck, the FAA takes your license if you have accidents and rightfully so.
Rider aids.... ?
At some point a connected, responsible and capable human is not going to count at all anymore.
Insurances will only ask you if you have system x,y,z installed.
Come on guys, we all know where this is going.
Leave the decisions to the individual humans and away from the engineers and the bureaucrats.
But, you have to take the individuals off the street that keep on counting their wrecks and think nothing of it.
Rider7
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I have not made-up my mind about "govt. mandate" or not for such safety devices. In the grand scheme of things, they will save lives and medical bills. Also, I don't buy the argument that one can't develop skills with these aides - they are possible to tone down and defeat. In fact, they can help develop skills by letting one safely reach and exceed the traction limit, feel that point learn where it is, and live to tell (and not have to replace half their bike, since the bike smarts will recover from the situation).
Also, for new riders, or for riders new to their bikes, I think they are especially good. In the early months with my SR I tested the limits of the ABS braking on purpose, just to see what the bike is capable of in various braking situations (straight line). That's not the same as playing ABS with my wrist, sure, but that's all I need on a bike with ABS. On a few occasions the ABS kicked-in when I had to do a near-emergency break/maneuver. Who knows if I would have been able to stop otherwise or side-slip...
Let's take things in perspective. Commuting vs. tough guy racing. I'll take all the aids available on my commute, thank you very much. Real racers will take the aids too, because they let them brake later and accelerate sooner and harder. So who's left? "Purists", anti-tech folks, and those who want cheaper bikes. I can personally relate to all three of these categories, and my personal balance, however, comes to overall I feel the benefit of having well-implemented aids outweighs the drawbacks. For others their preferences might lead them to another balance. From that perspective mandating aids would be bad, so I can relate to that too, but I think they should be an available option for those who want them, and if studies do show a significant decrease in injuries and deaths, mandatory regulation might be a good thing after all :)
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Good arguments can be made either way. I certainly believe that new riders would benefit with many safety devices until they get a grip on riding in traffic, in particular. However, all riders have to have their wits about them and must realize the you can not rely on the latest gadgets to keep you from being hit by another motorist, cornering too fast, not paying attention to the road conditions, etc. Those kind of lessons take a lot of riding experience and time to learn. And there is little room for error. One mistake while riding a motorcycle can really hurt both your body and your wallet. While riding safety aids can help and are certainly useful on cars and trucks, riding motorcycles are just a different type of experience and not everyone should be doing it - especially in the U.S., where the emphasis is on selling the vehicle and not on rider training.
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I agree....