ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: yhafting on February 09, 2017, 03:53:25 PM
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Along with the growing number of DC-Chargers popping up around the roads, i was pondering on why we don't see many attempts on using a DC-DC converter to charge the Zero fast.
I was thinking along the path of combining a CCS plug with something like this:
http://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/products/dcdc-energy-converters/converter-dcdc-10kw-80-150v (http://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/products/dcdc-energy-converters/converter-dcdc-10kw-80-150v)
But there must be something prohibiting this?
- There may be some physical reason; I thought of a step down converter since i believe the charging stations for cars mostly would start at a too high voltage for the Zero (200-450V).
- I admit having hard time finding a product with a price tag, so the cost may be prohibiting?
- In a way it is doing what the charging station already does for a car for the bike, so it should be unnecessary, however i don't think it is realistic to get DC charging from 70 to 120V as infrastructure when all cars use higher voltages.
Anyone have some thoughts on this?
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An Eltek Flatpack S has an DC voltage input range of 85-250 Vdc (85 - 305 Vac) So it could be used for AC charging stations and DC charging stations.
An Eltek Flatpack 2 HE can handle even higher DC input voltages 140 - 275 Vdc
In fact most (AC) rectifiers used in home-brew chargers can handle a DC input.
However, according to a quick search CSS uses powerline communication to tell the charging station what voltage and current to supply. That's a lot more difficult to interface compared to the J1772 or Mennekes type 2 (AC) charging stations where a diode and a resistor are sufficient.
But still interesting
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I've dabbled with a ChaDeMo top case, it sorta works but in the end I decided to go for a SC.
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I think the ChaDeMo standard goes down to 50 V. Would be much simpler and cheaper to use than a onboard AC charger if someone could make a cable/interface.
Here is another tread on the subject http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.msg17640#msg17640
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You can source the cable pretty much everywhere, interface, inlet etc can be purchased from EVTV.
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I think the ChaDeMo standard goes down to 50 V. Would be much simpler and cheaper to use than a onboard AC charger if someone could make a cable/interface.
Here is another tread on the subject http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.msg17640#msg17640 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.msg17640#msg17640)
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I don't think chademo has any future in europe. It seems the only sensible thing is CCS-combo or some kind of AC. Since those chademo chargers that already exist likely doesn't work with the bike, some add on circuitry will be needed.
I guess the Eltek rectifiers are one of the best solutions around, but i'd like to get something that allow ~10kw without taking too much space and money from my wallet. I wonder how easy it is to get hold of the ccs protocol. Perhaps i could make an arduino solution or something similar.
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I think the biggest problem is the ChaDeMo standard isn't really a standard. Pretty sure if you do some searching you should find articles about Zero working on ChaDeMo charging back in 2013.
While yes, supposedly the ChaDeMo "standard" supports 50v charging so theoretically it should support the 116v that we need for our batteries. The issue, to my understanding, is 50% or so of the ChaDeMo charge stations don't support charging at the lower voltages that we need. So Zero canned the development. Basically, charge station networks not following the "standard". Licensing to use the ChaDeMo standard is not cheap either.
With that said, it sounds like a future with CCS is more likely. Probably why Energica supports CCS. So hopefully it's easier to work with. No idea if the liscensing is any cheaper.
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DC charging is a lot different than AC to DC charging. The power output is based on voltage rise. A ChaDeMo can only charge 6.2 kW at 50v IF it follows the spec, which most do not.
Sadly most chargers, ChaDeMo and CCS, in practice, do not go below 200v meaning you have to fake the system out. In doing so, you get an immediate voltage rise causing the DC charger to think you have completed your charge nearly immediately.
A ChaDeMo is no different from an offboard SC which would also result in the same thing. If you plugged the output of one SC into the input of another SC, the first SC, which is powering the second SC would turn on and off again immediately. The nature of DC charging uses the battery itself as a load causing voltage drop. This is the premise of how we control the SC power and voltage output, and how it knows when to slow down and by how much.
CCS is actually more complex than ChaDeMo by far, but that complexity also makes it super secure. It uses encrypted TCP sockets over the power lines themselves with security cert transfers etc. Where ChaDeMo is simple canbus messages.
As far as making it less expencive, the I inlets which can handle reasonable power run around 800 for the incomplete plug alone excluding control board's, wiring harnesses etc. Which would bring the cost up more.
DC charge stations are nothing more than offboard SC programmed for higher voltages. We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
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CCS is actually more complex than ChaDeMo by far, but that complexity also makes it super secure. It uses encrypted TCP sockets over the power lines themselves with security cert transfers etc. Where ChaDeMo is simple canbus messages.
Thanks for the input Electric Cowboy. I guess encrypted TCP over power lines requires slightly more effort than i would put into a hobby project at the moment. I guess a decent rectifier solution will be easier then..
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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I am sure the diginow SC is a great product, but i cannot justify using that kind of money at the moment. IF i am going to have a charging solution faster than the onboard 1300W, i will most likely decide on product then wait until i can find it cheap enough- no matter how long time that takes.
I will of course take into account every advice i get, but i still believe i will be capable of building a solution if i can get my hand on the components.
When you bring up the cost of damaging a 15k$ bike, and derating hobby projects, you should thread carefully, because every trade is a wager. When i see the diginow charger closing in on 3k$ in the US for the 7.9kW solution, i know having this shipped to Norway and adding taxes i end up near 5k$. We're talking about 30% of the bikes initial cost or more- if i was about to sell the bike, perhaps more than 50% of the bikes cost... Now i can hold the wager of such a product holding what is warranted against a self made solution that i have carefully planned/considered thoroughly through months, that cost 1/3?. What are my stakes for disappointment, shipping problems, components failing, loss of money, death or injury? I'm not going to fill in numbers on these, but i'm not certain that the odds are in favour of the SC, even if the product in it self is great.
If i had the money (and then some), and needed the solution NOW, i would definitely consider the SC, but the stakes are always higher on what you cannot fix yourself, especially when the only help you can get is overseas. There is also a certain amount of satisfaction by doing things by myself, experiencing, rather than blindly trusting someone elses experience and judgement.
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Good answer. Just to clear up some details the 7.9 is $2700 shipping to Oslo is $227 including customs with a reported value in favor of shipping... if purchased from Norway or online there should be no sales tax at the time of purchase.
So the total cost would be around $2927 USD or 24,495 krones to get the 7.9kW in Norway.
For between 4 and 5k USD you can get 1C charging from mennekes connectors. There are a few people in the EU doing this already.
If you want to build your own, it is a great experience and a lot of fun, just be careful. And if your bike turns on, but does not react when you plug in the onboard for some reason, remember to replace the 100A inline fuse with a breaker at that point. It blows really easy while learning about back flow into caps of larger charging systems.
So just be prepared to spend a lot more to get it the way you want and mounted. Most people forget to add in the cost of all the parts.
All my projects started as hobbies that I decided to just go head down and charge forward no matter how much it cost. And boy has it cost a lot!
I encourage your electric riding and fast charging no matter how you do it! And I hope you have a TON of fun!! 🤠.
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yhafting, I have been to Norway a lot and you have one of the best charging infrastructures. Mennekes everywhere and DC is also rolling out.
If the SC might not be the thing for you, why not go for the official Zero auxiliary charger? It is still far from 1C but you practically double your charging speed.
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@erasmo I don't think you can get that in EU. Also, the single Super Charger module puts out more power and is $200 cheaper.
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Edit: I misread. You must be thinking of the Charge Tank, which you can get here ready for Mennekes btw.
I was talking about this one: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&zenid=5rpnifiojlnfbim5jompu49i90&cPath=5&products_id=194 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&zenid=5rpnifiojlnfbim5jompu49i90&cPath=5&products_id=194)
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I've translated much of these remarks for the relevant wiki section: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#DC (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#DC)
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yhafting, I have been to Norway a lot and you have one of the best charging infrastructures. Mennekes everywhere and DC is also rolling out.
If the SC might not be the thing for you, why not go for the official Zero auxiliary charger? It is still far from 1C but you practically double your charging speed.
The main reason for not selecting oem solution is that it is high cost and low efficiency. I was pondering on a ccs solution because i believe a dc/dc conversion could be made cheaper than ac conversion. But it will always boil down to availability of components.
I know we have good charging infrastructure in Norway. In fact enough that i could manage with a pure ccs solution (in addition to the onboard charger), however an ac/dc conversion is more versatile if it can be made adjustable.
The cheapest option right now seems to be buying second hand telecom equipment, which probably is over specced for the task.
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A DC/DC converter might be cheaper indeed, but the venom is in the plug. ChaDeMo aftermarket isn't that hard to implement since it is simple CAN-bus, you can buy kits to install in your EV. VW even used an aftermarket ChaDeMo when testing the E-Golf.
As far as I know there aren't third parties yet where you can buy kits for CCS but if you take the ChaDeMo one as guideline you'd spend around €1000, and that's for the plug and comms module alone.
Mennekes is much easier and cheaper, and to be honest for a Zero it doesn't matter that much because you can 1C it on a regular 3-phase charging station which you find on about every streetcorner in Norway. So at this point the only thing that a DC/DC setup could have going for it would be if it weighed significantly less.
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We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?
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We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?
Actualy, it works as is ;) it's built into your charge control box too. If using your Super Charger (v2!!) as an offboard DC station, I just reccomend you plug it into the bike while the bike is off and the contactor is open. So far all the testing even with the contactor is open and the bike is on has been perfect, however, there is still more testing to do to ensure the charge control unit code safley handles full 1C stack connect and disconnect safely at any time. But looking good so far.
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We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?
Actualy, it works as is ;) it's built into your charge control box too. If using your Super Charger (v2!!) as an offboard DC station, I just reccomend you plug it into the bike while the bike is off and the contactor is open.
Ah, of course. The spec page said 85-265v with no indication of what type because it doesn't matter. The answer was there the whole time. And with most charging infrastructure able to handle 250vDC, and a lesser amount even down to 200vDC, the SC2 simply works with most configurations, and with some time and effort, potentially more later.
Bravo! A truly extendable option.
Now this plus Terry's idea of side mounted batteries...*evil grin*
I think I need to learn to weld and work with fiberglass.
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You misunderstand. These are supercharger based DC fast chargers for zeros.
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You misunderstand. These are supercharger based DC fast chargers for zeros.
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Perhaps?
I thought the thread question was how to get voltage reduced to what a Zero could take in, noting the difficulties prior with non standard CHAdeMO. Your answer to that is the SCv2 as the SCv2's upper bound works at a level compatible with most DC charging infrastructure, as well as consumer level AC, in most cases with the appropriate cabling.
And, drawing off of the modular design, that things that aren't possible with it yet might yet be possible by adding "to be developed" bits as additional modules?
I was admitting a misread on the spec page for me (and possibly others, but definitely me) where I saw a voltage range that covered the standard 120/240 operating ranges (and obviously then some) and immediately filed it as an AC spec, not understanding it was DC, and figuring out how much this does change the game.
Or am I assuming incorrectly this was directed to me?
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Yeah, you got it. Though, in one of my earlier posts, you'll notice the difficulty of faking out a DC charger without the battery as load since they operate on voltage rise.
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?
Thanks.
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?
Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?
Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.
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Wouldnt a varistor based solution be more reliable as a fail-safe?
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That's just the short version of it. But fast controls are probably the biggest part of a contactor open. As without them, things will blow up pretty quickly. Then again, that could be the software engineer in me saying that :D
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I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.
I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...
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Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?
Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.
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I've done a little investigation on that and contacted Eltek with my questions. Seems like the Flatpack is pretty stable and fast. For a 90-10% load drop they propose max +5% which is regulated in less than 50ms according to the spec sheet, which I attached. Nevertheless I asked them about 100-0% measurements which they provided to me. If I understand the scaling of the diagram correctly, the spike is actually way lower than 5%, namely less than 1V. (one square equals 1V in the diagram according to the description). This would mean that a series of two flatpacks would spike up to ~116V when programmed to 114 (57V each), which seems pretty good. Additionally they mentioned, that values will look even way better if there's a little load remaining (50W), which would be the light bulbs if you charge with key on. What do you think?
And don't get me wrong ElectricCowboy, I appreciate your products and what you are doing for the Zero Community, that's really great. But nevertheless some of us like tinkering ;-) And in my case, I simply can't afford anything else than used flatpacks at the moment. Although, obviously a damage to the bike due to a flatpack might be way more expensive than your supercharger ;-)
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Don't forget the inrush to your DC side caps. Depending how many you string together if you connect with the contactor closed, you will blow your charge fuse. Learned that one the hard way with the original betas I built from meanwells.
Speaking of, I have a bunch of them laying around with no good use anymore.
Also if your charge fuse does blow while exploring and tinkering, it is usually on the right side of the bike near the battery. It's a huge inline fuse. A bitch to get out because of the adhesive heat shrink, but the wires have ring terminals once you get the fuse out so you could wire in a fuse breaker. Or if in a pinch just bolt them together.
I'm all for people tinkering. I just know my expositions cost me a lot of money in learning expenses. Hope this helps you avoid some of the things I learned first hand.
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I'm all for people tinkering. I just know my expositions cost me a lot of money in learning expenses. Hope this helps you avoid some of the things I learned first hand.
Thanks for commenting on pitfalls like this publicly; I'll do my best to catalog this to keep our collective mistake budgets down...
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Like this: I've separated the charging fuse section from the charging port section:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charging_Fuse (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charging_Fuse)
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Don't forget the inrush to your DC side caps. Depending how many you string together if you connect with the contactor closed, you will blow your charge fuse. Learned that one the hard way with the original betas I built from meanwells.
Speaking of, I have a bunch of them laying around with no good use anymore.
I have to deal with this with my ebike chargers. I have a little circuit that on connect will feed the dc caps or battery through a resistor until the voltages match or x time has passed before closing the relay to connect the charger and battery.. works differently than a zero does, but same concept.
come to think of it, I suppose I could make one that worked for a meanwell on a zero... but its not required as long as you enable the onboard before connecting the meanwell.
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Don't forget the inrush to your DC side caps. Depending how many you string together if you connect with the contactor closed, you will blow your charge fuse. Learned that one the hard way with the original betas I built from meanwells.
Speaking of, I have a bunch of them laying around with no good use anymore.
I have to deal with this with my ebike chargers. I have a little circuit that on connect will feed the dc caps or battery through a resistor until the voltages match or x time has passed before closing the relay to connect the charger and battery.. works differently than a zero does, but same concept.
come to think of it, I suppose I could make one that worked for a meanwell on a zero... but its not required as long as you enable the onboard before connecting the meanwell.
Actually if you enable the onboard before connecting the meanwells, depending on how many you have you will definitely blow the charge fuse. That's the exact scenario. The other is if the bike is on and you connect the meanwells.
Glad you said that or your exploration of doing your own could have been more trouble than you bargained for.
@briantrice nice!
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Also of note @ Brian, the 13 with the 15 battery upgrade has a 100A fuse took one apart and checked.
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Actually if you enable the onboard before connecting the meanwells, depending on how many you have you will definitely blow the charge fuse. That's the exact scenario. The other is if the bike is on and you connect the meanwells.
Glad you said that or your exploration of doing your own could have been more trouble than you bargained for.
now you have me curious.. if you have the onboard charger going... and you then add in the meanwells (with them already powered on, so their caps are at 116v... will the extremely short duration of higher power while the caps discharge down to the current charge voltage actually pop the fuse? that seems kind of extreme considering the tiny amount of power they have... how do the approved chargers deal with that?
or are you talking about it popping with the meanwell off, and its charging the meanwell caps?
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Actually if you enable the onboard before connecting the meanwells, depending on how many you have you will definitely blow the charge fuse. That's the exact scenario. The other is if the bike is on and you connect the meanwells.
Glad you said that or your exploration of doing your own could have been more trouble than you bargained for.
now you have me curious.. if you have the onboard charger going... and you then add in the meanwells (with them already powered on, so their caps are at 116v... will the extremely short duration of higher power while the caps discharge down to the current charge voltage actually pop the fuse? that seems kind of extreme considering the tiny amount of power they have... how do the approved chargers deal with that?
or are you talking about it popping with the meanwell off, and its charging the meanwell caps?
Charging the caps is what blows it.
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