ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Other Electric Motorcycles => Topic started by: Testpilot1 on February 08, 2017, 04:06:32 PM
-
Was lucky enough to own one of the heavily discounted DSP's last year from Streetbike.
Regrettably I got rid, and now I'm considering jumping back in, I refuse to pay the full list price Zero are asking. In my opinion they're just not worth it. The £6000 I payed was reasonable but 12-14 grand is just a rip off.
When you look at what TORK Motorcycles are knocking them out at,surely they have to re-consider their pricing point ?
What are your thoughts.......
http://torkmotorcycles.com/ (http://torkmotorcycles.com/)
-
https://youtu.be/uEH0r4mEkIA
-
Has a piddly little 27Nm motor (equiv to a 12kw 125cc), I bet it won't do 60 miles at 60mph, I'd say it'll probably do half that. It's certainly going to struggle to get to 60 anyway by the sounds of it. (for comparison the Zeros motors are 92-157Nm)
At £1,800, my guess is it's a lot like the 30mph city scooters that use either a SLA or small LiIon battery.
(reading between the lines, looks like it has a 4kWh battery)
It's also cheap even for an Indian bike, my bet is that promo price will increase more than a little bit by the time it reaches the UK.
Upshot, its another short range 125cc equivalent electric scooter. A lot like one of these in terms of spec.
http://www.greenelectricbikes.co.uk/Electricycle-Electro.htm (http://www.greenelectricbikes.co.uk/Electricycle-Electro.htm)
It's not a competitor to Zero.
-
Watch this space. Maybe it will depend on what riders want to turn to electric for, not everyone's after max performance , some want a cheap commute with the same benefits as a SR,DS,FX etc, but at a fair price.
No electric motorcycle is going to be Slow, I spent most of my time on my DSP at 60 mph, and wasn't really concerned wether it could do it a couple of seconds quicker than the competition, it was just exhilarating. We'll see what the electric community decide is the way to go , either way , top and bottom of it is ZERO's bikes are overpriced........
-
6KWH for the introductory price of £1500 , versus just over twice the kWh for 10 times the price.................for a commuter surely it's a no-brainier ?
-
Where did you get 6kWh? I worked it off their claimed full recharge rate which is 4kWh.
Equivalent electric bikes from China in the UK go for around £3000-£5000 I'd be reasonably surprised if it's much cheaper than that.
Though the SLA ones are closer to the £1500 you quote, but the range of a bike with an SLA battery is abysmal.
Zero are expensive because they are using cutting edge batteries, on a motor which is one of the better pancake motors in the business, and Sevcon power controller tech which is not that cheap either. They are not so much overpriced, as using premium gear. I also suspect a portion of the Zero's price is in its R&D. Its one of the best electric motorbikes on the market, and its price reflects that.
You can buy cheaper kit if you wish, but you won't have as good a bike.
-
6KWH for the introductory price of £1500 , versus just over twice the kWh for 10 times the price.................for a commuter surely it's a no-brainier ?
Ah. I should have clicked specs... Durr.
http://torkmotorcycles.com/specification.html (http://torkmotorcycles.com/specification.html)
Battery life : 1,000 cycles
Battery capacity : 72 Ah
Voltage: 48 V (holy crap its 48v!)
48v * 72Ah = 3.5kWh battery.
So the battery of this bike is nearly 4 times smaller.
So where does the 6 come from? My guess...
Motor type : Brushless DC 6kW (peak)
Again, I bet, based on the specs against the Chinese import bikes, this bike will be closer to 3 grand in the UK.
-
Would they have to add ABS to sell it in Europe or would this thing be considered 125cc and be exempt?
-
I still believe,It will depend what people entering the market are after,battery life/cycles is irrelevant for me,as this is plenty to last the length of life that I would need it for.I 'd want to change my bike b4 the end of its limited cycles, as tech would have moved on leaps and bounds ,and at that point even a replacement battery would be a cheap alternative.
For someone that's not after max power, and arguably a better looking bike than any of ZE RO's offerings, this could prove popular ?
-
Battery might be upgradeable at a later date,more power,more cycles as battery tech advances.Competition is good,it will drive prices down, something which there is no argument , needs to happen with ZERO.
-
Really. This is like comparing the Land Rover with the Landwind... Yes, it's an electric bike. Yes, it uses lithium batteries and a DC brushless motor. But it is in no way a competitor for Zero, not functionally and not performance wise. Quality wise I can't see from a distance, but my bet is that it's not up to par with Zero.
-
If they can win the TT.......
-
Depends what your requirements are.If we're really talking performance , i'm saying you could go for a lightning LS-218 or something similar over a ZERO, but I don't want to spend £30,000 on my work commute.
-
They started off with their first motorcycle codenamed TX 01, which is their prototype, this took them to winning the iconic Isle Of Man TT. This electric motorcycles touched a top speed of 156 km/h powered by 30Nm of torque and peaking at 40bhp. They used a 7.2KW battery pack to power the race machine.
Read more at: http://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2016/indias-first-electric-motorcycle-from-tork-motorcycles-014579.html (http://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2016/indias-first-electric-motorcycle-from-tork-motorcycles-014579.html)
Please read your facts. This is not the motorcycle you are referring to. A racing vehicle is *miles* apart from a road legal vehicle in this context.
You are either a sales representative, or somebody with a good case of cognitive dissonance.
-
👌 Skidz
-
They started off with their first motorcycle codenamed TX 01, which is their prototype, this took them to winning the iconic Isle Of Man TT. This electric motorcycles touched a top speed of 156 km/h powered by 30Nm of torque and peaking at 40bhp. They used a 7.2KW battery pack to power the race machine.
I seriously doubt they won at the TT, they came last in the open event in 2009, when it was the TT-XGP, and never placed in any of the TT-Zero events.
TT-XGP (2009) Open class
1 England Chris Heath ElectricMotorsport.com / Native Cycles 66.022 mph (106.252 km/h) 34' 17.30
2 England Chris Petty Barefoot Motors 62.219 mph (100.132 km/h) 36' 23.06
3 Isle of Man John Crellin TORK 60.475 mph (97.325 km/h) 37' 26.01
List of IOM TT-Zero Winners
Mark Miller - MotoCzysz E1pc / MotoCzysz - (2010)
Michael Rutter MotoCzysz (2011)
Michael Rutter MotoCzysz (2012)
Michael Rutter MotoCzysz (2013)
John McGuinness Shinden San / Team Mugen (2014)
John McGuinness Shinden San / Team Mugen (2015)
Bruce Anstey Shinden Go / Team Mugen (2016)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTXGP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTXGP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_Zero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_Zero)
These days a race fitted Energica Ego would struggle to place at the TT-Zero. ;)
-
Battery might be upgradeable at a later date,more power,more cycles as battery tech advances.Competition is good,it will drive prices down, something which there is no argument , needs to happen with ZERO.
Zero's have *technically* been getting cheaper. That is to say, that the price of a 2012 ZF9 is similar to a 2017 Zero-S, however the Zero-S is a far more capable machine.
Sadly the UK price took a hike this year because the pound tanked against the dollar and euro, which has'nt helped any.
-
The UK price of the FXS just took a £900 drop. That's good for some, but it really wound me up. I got a £1500 discount for taking one of the last 2016 models and almost 8 weeks later I'm still being screwed around trying to register it. A £600 discount to take a 2016 over a 2017... not so tempting. Zero's response appears to be "tough luck".
-
Team Agni ?
-
Team Agni (Aka Team Lynch) are better known these days as Saietta, they are not Tork.
Back in the day Agni worked more closely with Zero than Tork.
Saietta are still participating in the TT-Zero events (well trying, their bike keeps failing to qualify Edit: no sorry I was thinking of Sarolea)
I suspect the link is that Tork's founder, Kapil Shelke, was an engineer at Agni...
If they are claiming that the Agni Bike was a Tork bike, then that is a bit cheeky of Tork.
Though I am wondering now if the Tork that ran at the 2009 race is a different entity to the Indian one.
Info on Agni / Saietta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saietta_Group
(page probably should note that Zero stopped using Agni motors from 2012 onwards)
-
Wikipedia
-
I believe he was a Top engineer at Agni, TORK competed in the open I think,not the PRO as AGNI did.....
-
Yes. But Agni is not Tork.
I'm saying it's disingenuous of Tork as a company to say they won at the TT-XGP, simply because one of the designers worked on the Agni bike.
That would be like saying that Oculus created the Award winning Doom computer game simply because John Carmack now works at Oculus.
Besides that has little relation to the Agni Racing bike and the low power scooter Tork are trying to bring to market.
Don't get me wrong, I wish Tork all the best, more electric bikes are a good thing. However I really don't think the big players such as Zero, or Energica, will be losing any sleep. Now if one of the big six get in to the game, thats when you might see real downward pressures on prices, as they have the clout to get components cheap that smaller outfits such as Zero don't always have ( for example Zero going over to Showa suspension components was simply because increasing sales volumes on their bikes meant they could finally negotiate a contract). Remember Mugen is really just Honda with the serial numbers filed off, and Kawasaki are known to be toying with an electric version of the Ninja.
-
If that's what happened,.........I'm sure it will all come out in the wash,either way it's got to be good for development.
-
A brief history of TORQ
http://torkmotors.com/ (http://torkmotors.com/)
-
It is a Chinese bike. I know the factory in China which sells it there under a different name ;) it is a lot more like a scooter than the zero. Good for getting around on in town, but one really should not compare it to a Zero.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
It's Indian, and what makes you say it's a scooter ?
-
Founder of TORK worked for Agni
-
A lot of people commute on bigger bikes than a 125cc because that also want to enjoy the ride as well. A 125cc scooter will commute just fine, but they are not taking over the market. I see the same for the T6X.
-
Its not equivalent to a 125.....
-
Its not equivalent to a 125.....
You're right there Testpilot. This bike has a maximum power of 6kW whereas a 125 is restricted to 11kW. I think you'd find it very disappointing after your 2014 DSP. Disappointing for a 125 rider even!
Zero don't have to compete on price with this manufacturer. It's a completely different market. I feel it would have been better dressed up as a scooter. Storage for a helmet, better suited for riding through town etc. More honest too.
Is there any chance of getting your DSP back or has it been sold on? Do Streetbike have any left unregistered? Or you might get lucky and get a used 2015? That would be good too.
-
Have you ever rode a zero sr and an equivalent to your Tork moped? There not even in the same ball-park, youre obviously contracted or something. Just stop while you're not totally hated on this forum no one's falling for it
-
Well luckily for me, I'm not after this forums approval,not here to make friends and no I'm not contracted..............
It's not just about max power,it's about how it gets there,and with that there's no comparison with gas bikes.If your after more than a commuter,you just wouldn't go for a Zero, I wouldn't have one again unless it was cheap.
I'll hold out for something fully faired , exciting , and reasonably priced to come along, if I'm ever after more than a commuter.
Wait until the power source is ZPE, batteries will be a thing of the past, free and unlimited power lol
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/ (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/)
Wasn't trying to get anyone emotional, just sharing ideas
-
I'm not going to hold my breath untill ZPE becomes mainstream, that's for sure ;) But that discussion belong somewhere else than in the Zero > 2013 forum I guess.
-
The big question is whether Zero can compete with India's legendary quality control and their ability to deliver to spec and on time.
-
The big question is whether Zero can compete with India's legendary quality control and their ability to deliver to spec and on time.
As someone who owns an Indian-made Royal Enfield, I assume you forgot to insert one of these in your message: ::)
-
I was just thinking back to my days of managing an offshore software development team in India. That nice winking emoji must have been implied every time someone said "Everything's fine. The code is on track, tested and you have it tomorrow."
-
It's not just about max power,it's about how it gets there
Your power in kW determines how you get there, and 6kW is going to get you there rather slowly indeed.
Unless that is your gearing is rather low (and thus a low top end) then your acceleration is going to suck.
Basically I predict that this bike is somewhere equivalent in terms of performance to a 50-80cc machine.
In fact I would not be surprised if a 125cc ICE would smoke a Tork T6X off the lights based on the specs.
-
I think this is mostly about Testpilot making a mistake by returning his DSP after a short ownership. He's sold on an electric drivetrain but has budget limitations.
Testpilot: I think the worst thing you could do is get one of these Tork bikes. Just don't bother getting a bike at all unless it's got half a chance of being fun to ride. The S and DS are fun. The DSR and SR much more so. Or just get an ICE off eBay. Life is too short to waste your time with rubbish. A commute will just be tedious with one of those Tork bikes. Not worth the effort of putting your gear on. I'd rather get the train and read a book than ride one of those.
-
Or make sure you test ride one and find out what it's like before parting with any cash.
-
Your mapping/ controller decides how you get there not kWh, that's why you have Eco,sport mode etc on the zero's.
Imagine if a lecky bike had mapping to emulate the 2 stroke powerband thing, I remember that being dead buzzy when I had a 250 as a kid 😀
It s not about me getting rid of my DSP, I've already held my hands up and said I made a mistake,but thats only because I got it at the heavily discounted price. I can live with that knowing I didn't loose a penny on its private sale.
Time to be patient.
Anyway it's good to talk,that's why I started this topic as a question,time will tell how it's answered.
-
Your mapping/ controller decides how you get there not kWh,
I assume you meant the output of the motor (kW) and not the storage of the battery (kWh)
Also remember Watts is the amount of energy consumed by the motor to produce a given amount of work, generally given losses you can translate that easily to work produced. So kW is pretty much the silver standard of "how you get there" Torque in newtons being the gold standard. ;)
So speaking normally, as I understand it, a 6kW rating on the motor is the peak at which you can put 6kW of power through the motor and it will not (seriously) overheat.
Your controller can indeed remap the motor, and the Zeros remap the motor, downwards. However if you remap the controller try to allow the motor to draw more power than it is rated for, there is an increasing danger it will overheat and melt.
So yes, theoretically you could push a 6kW motor way above 6kW, once...
But it will never ever be a 45kW motor like on the Zero-DS.
-
So actually lets talk about the T6X in terms of its ability to accelerate.
It lists the torque on the site as
Maximum torque : 27 Nm
I'm guessing that at the output shaft of the motor.
By way of comparison
2014
Zero-DS : 92Nm
2015
Zero-SR : 144Nm
2017
Zero-DS : 110Nm
Zero-SR : 157Nm
So the Torx bike will be four times slower off the lights than the Zero-DS you owned.
I do a comparison with ICE bikes, but the gearbox complicates things.
The H2R produces the same torque as a 2017 Zero-SR, but is substantially quicker for example.
At the end of the day, if you are okay with a cheap run about bike, then thats fine.
Personally I could not own one, I found the Zero-ZF9 a little bit lacking in guts for my personal taste, and the Torx looks worse.
There is no way in hell I'd spend my money on the Torx bike.
-
Do you think it would be possible/appealing to buyers, if Zero had an extra map setting on the bars, for that 2 stroke power band feeling ?
-
I guess. Not something I'd considered myself.
Certainly more customisation such as mapping the throttle setting to power delivery on the custom setting might be nice.
Saying that, If you pay about a grand you can also get a sevcon programmer, and you can directly remap the controller yourself.
Though people more knowledgable than I about such things point out it's also a good way to wreck your motor, or get yourself killed. ;)
There are a couple of people on these forums who are experienced at remapping the controller using the programmer.
-
Somewhere in that video someone mentioned 3s to 100km/h (a hair under 60 mph). That's pretty brisk acceleration, though I seriously doubt it will be true, even if they have some ridiculous gearing that would limit top end speed. The Vectrix has a slightly stronger motor in terms of kWh and 110km/h electronically limited top speed, yet managed a time of only something like 6 seconds if not longer... Even the Zero SR can't do 3s to 60mph with its several times more powerful motor, so I highly doubt these things can even come close.
A bike like this will be more powerful than 50cc gas bikes for sure. Based on my experience with the Vectrix, which was similar to a 300cc or more up to its top speed, these would easily keep-up with or beat a 125cc off the line and probably be competitive up to top speed. So I would not discount them on performance. I think they would be great in the city, just not as quick as a Zero.
Will Zero compete with these? Sure, it might get some buyers like those who want something a bit more than a 50cc scooter but don't want a big motorcycle and would otherwise have bought a Zero S reluctantly. Although I highly doubt there would be many like that, especially in the target markets in countries like India, where these things will need to be priced very low to have any chance of sales, way lower than a Zero.
-
So what your saying is , I should hold out for the BMW e RR at $15,995 , now that would be worth it 😜
-
If/When it comes to market, and it's around that price I'd consider it.
-
Last night my wife said, "I feel like a good steak, let's go to Ruth's Chris".
I said, "nah, Sizzler is just down the street and it's like a third of the cost."
She called me a dumbass then slapped me.
-
Ok so BMW e RR instead of a ZERO..........
-
Imagine if a lecky bike had mapping to emulate the 2 stroke powerband thing, I remember that being dead buzzy when I had a 250 as a kid 😀
The only time I've seen anyone refer to an electric motorcycle as a "lecky bike" was when they were being disparaging to electric motorcycles.
You could also consider adjusting the title, now that it has been made clear that Zero and TORK are vastly different builds in terms of power and quality (and availability).
-
Like I said power and quality will b answered in due course..........if BMW launch the e RR at $15,995 ZERO are in trouble.......
-
The title will stay the same.........
-
Yes BMW has always been known for their rock bottom cut throat pricing. I am really laughing in real life as I typed that.
Look if anyone wants a Tork, go for it! I hope they love it for all time.
But if your goal is to try to get Zero to only charge 5 or 6 grand for their bikes your time would be better spent working overtime instead of typing because that is not going to happen.
Bentley does not drop their prices when some econo box comes out, it is not a real life comparison, same thing here.
Try to find a new topic, new members are valuable and your opinions are important but lets not go on too long with no real progress in bringing people to your side. We see the bike, we've heard the claims now lets see what happens with real world reviews and sales.
-
Wait until the power source is ZPE, batteries will be a thing of the past, free and unlimited power lol
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/ (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/)
I'm sorry but do you also believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden? This idea has been push for over 20 years. There are all sorts of crackpots making claims all over the internet.
-
On the side of the T6X it has lower gearing than the Zero's with a top speed of around 100km/h so this will improve its acceleration, also its lighter with the smaller battery pack, again improving acceleration, but it will still be short of a Zero. But it might find a good market in asia where there are lots of 125cc scooters around. The chances are it will smoke these by a big margin. It could be a real winner in those countries.
-
Wait until the power source is ZPE, batteries will be a thing of the past, free and unlimited power lol
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/ (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/)
I'm sorry but do you also believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden? This idea has been push for over 20 years. There are all sorts of crackpots making claims all over the internet.
Oh ZPE is totally a thing, getting work out of it... Not so much... Though some notable names have considered the problem.
-
TORK is in a completely different class from Zero, performance, range, and probably durability. They will be competing primarily against other lower-spec Chinese bikes that are used primarily for inner city commuting or delivery.
And that's fine. Many riders will be satisfied with a bike in that class, and Zero doesn't offer a bike for them. More competition (for the various Chinese resellers) is good.
With that said - TORK's marketing materials are exaggerated and should be taken with a large grain of salt. It would be worth waiting for a review from an independent entity before becoming too enthusiastic :)
Just stop while you're not totally hated on this forum no one's falling for it
Woah there. That's not called for, IMO. Stop and think about what you're typing please!
-
Your not wrong Justin, Bae systems / Lockheed Martin / NASA are back in the game, after project green glow some years ago........
http://www.utahspace.org/special/casimir-force-thrusters.html (http://www.utahspace.org/special/casimir-force-thrusters.html)
-
The Tork is a rebranded Chinese bike from a scooter manufacturer. I know the guys that build it.
They are calling it Indian because they are buying it for use as an Indian brand.
Might be useful and fun in countries where scooters are popular.
@bmw eRR when it becomes available let me know. I rode the mission and tried to buy one... I tried to buy a lightning... Shit, I even tried to buy a brammo 3 years before they released, when they were originally supposed to release.
I owned a native, which definitely qualified as scooter power but was great back in the day... and since then have owned each successive years top of the line street model for Zero.
Why a Zero? Because it's the one that's actually on the market. The whole rest of the industry is vaporware. Would get an Energica if it were available here. But I don't know anyone who has been able to get one that tried here in California.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
Energica in California
http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/ (http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/)
-
Energy a in California
http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/ (http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/)
Over $34000. I don't think they'll be a threat to Zero.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
-
Energica in California
http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/ (http://www.energicamotorusa.com/4631-energica-eva-450-miles-along-california-iconic-roads/)
This was a promo shoot on a bike owned by Energica, I'm sure Electric Cowboy is aware of this. However I'm interested to know if anyone has seriously attempted to buy an Energica bike in CA. They are licensed to sell in the US.
-
Yup yup. Promos don't excite me. Brammo killed that part of me. So did lightning and every other company saying the would be for sale and are not for sale.
So now I only get excited after I get my hands on it.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
Yup yup. Promos don't excite me. Brammo killed that part of me. So did lightning and every other company saying the would be for sale and are not for sale.
So now I only get excited after I get my hands on it.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I agree. :( However I sure would like to know whatever happened to Lightning. ??? The last I heard they were setting up an assembly line (which looked to be about 50 feet long), but I haven't heard a peep about the company or its products since then.
-
They are still trying. Maybe someday.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
-
Yup yup. Promos don't excite me. Brammo killed that part of me. So did lightning and every other company saying the would be for sale and are not for sale.
So now I only get excited after I get my hands on it.
Amen!