ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JBC444 on January 30, 2017, 12:57:23 AM
-
I have been following this forum for about a month. It seems more like an advocacy site than a forum, so I anticipate this review may not be entirely well-received. Many posters appear to be engineers or possess technical backgrounds, and so much of the information posted reflects that. My review is intended to reflect an "average" consumer experience, however, in the interest of full and fair disclosure, I am a mostly-retired venture capitalist. My venture group is considering a range of investments in electric transportation and we wanted a hands-on, from-the-buyer, perspective on both the product and the company as we do research into where and how to place our funds. I was willing to serve as the guinea pig and buy this expensive toy. This review will help me to draft an article for our firm's periodical, which goes out to our principals and limited partners, well as into other industry re-publications.
I purchased my 2017 Zero S on December 27. It was delivered to the dealership within the "7-10 business days" that were quoted to me. Once it arrived, I did DMV paperwork and waited for them to deliver it to me. In California, where I live, one can not drive a motorcycle off the lot without a Motorcycle license endorsement, which I lacked. While this may in fact be the law, it doesn't protect the consumer, but rather, protects the dealer only. Silly, especially as California Highway Code is ambiguous at best on the need for such an endorsement. This practice is not related in any way to Zero and the silliness of the law is just my opinion.
I intend on putting the bike through it's paces "stocK", although many of the wonky modifications are ... interesting and sometimes amusing. Along with the bike, I purchased the "commuter" version of the windscreen and a week after purchase, added the "rain guard" rear fender. Like others, the lack of a rear fender seemed a senseless liability. You may argue style points, but fenders serve a purpose. Duh.
I've now put 250 miles on the bike. The promised range as quoted in sales literature and in the manual seem to be exaggerated on the order of 25-30%. While I have not run the bike completely dry and stranded myself, I am fairly certain that, under any circumstances, it is unlikely to go any further than 60 miles or so. Is this a scientific analysis? Of course not. Don't expect the typical consumer, if you intend to reach that market, to be interested in the scientific details of why the range is not as "promised", but do expect the consumer to hold you to your promises. The company promises 80, although the number of qualifications and exceptions to that promise must have won their lawyer a big bonus. The physics isn't complicated or hard to understand, but the promise is made boldly in many places, while the caveats are downplayed to the bare minimum required to meet fair disclosure tests and only appear in the online manual (another HUGE fail for consumers). So, as a toy, it's a great bike. For transportation, it's a disappointing limitation and less than impressive. I expected better.
Aside from the exaggerated range claims, the bike itself has a lot going for it, so far. It delivers on the promised torque, is relatively quiet, presuming that the sound it makes is not indicative of internal parts harmfully rubbing against each other, that is... It's certainly fast, has more top end than I need even in eco mode, and a gets good marks for low vibrations, which one would expect from a new machine but is certainly nice.
I have yet to determine any meaningful function for the associated "app" other than to program the "custom" mode. That mode seems to function mainly as a way to change the level of brake regeneration. True, you can modify torque and high end as well, but you can do that by the way you twist the throttle, too. I suppose it's a fun distraction, but I'm not an engineer nor am I obsessed with battery statistics, so, meh. The idea that I would mount my phone on the handlebars and then look at it while driving is just completely alien to me. Of course, I'm over fifty and don't walk around holding my phone in front of me, like pedestrians in a crosswalk...
The seat is uncomfortable and poorly engineered, the mirrors are nearly useless in their original configuration and only minimally adjustable. The right mirror assembly is integrated into the brake handle, meaning that if you re-position the mirror, you also re-position the brake handle inaccessibly. The headlight seems inadequate and a poor choice, given how much better and modern LEDs would have been. I find the side stand doesn't inspire confidence and anticipate that, sooner or later, it will fall over if the ground surface isn't perfect. While a center stand might require some thought, some thought would have been a worthwhile investment when it comes to a safe, stable center stand.
Since I am a slim guy, I do like the reduced weight of the bike. However, the ergonomics of the bike are so poor that I wonder what height they imagined their riders to be. I am only 6 ft, and I feel like a giant riding a minibike. A comfortable riding position, based on the distance between seat and handlebars, is difficult to find and maintain. Thus far, the poor ergonomics have elicited to much fatigue to go beyond 30 miles or so.
While I've never owned a bike with a windscreen before, I have ridden plenty. This windscreen is ... just too small to be effective. The other OEM choices seemed either too small or like something that would shimmy, rattle, vibrate or even come apart under road conditions. Like others, I anticipate the need to find one elsewhere that actually does the job.
As for the company, itself, I am seriously underwhelmed. They have no after-sales concept at all, going on my experience. I contacted them with inquiries about the lack of customer contact, failure to produce any sort of warranty card, and failure even to acknowledge the purchase and start date of the warranty. I would categorize their reply as unresponsive and give them a complete "fail" on customer care/service/marketing, which seems to be the consistent experience of most owners. I disclosed our venture group's interest and that we were doing a review article for the industry, but customer and media relations don't seem to be a concept that has registered with this company. The argument that they are "new" is unpersuasive, given their ten year anniversary and the list of market failures is extensive
Our initial review will be updated in six months, once I have more on the road experience with the bike as well as with any other after-market experiences with the company. The biggest question remaining is whether there will truly be any warranty support, how the need will arise, and what process, if any, evolves for handling warranty repairs. All information so far points to this area as another epic fail for the company, and yet, given the claims of "zero" maintenance, may be ingenious from a cost-savings standpoint for the company. Time will tell. The great thing about so many weaknesses in the Zero model is that they do create some genuine opportunities for others to enter or mature the market.
Our group is considering the electric vehicle market and the various opportunities that might arise as the industry reaches a level of competence. We will be paying more attention to the market deficiencies of companies like Zero and determining the best opportunities for advancement of a profitable long0term business model. Pioneers, like Zero, have contributed a lot to that model, both in their successes and in their failings.
Feel free to comment. You can't hurt my feelings.
JBC
-
There is definitely a range of users on the forum. I'm not one of the engineers.
I think of myself as one of the first "consumer adopters" or at best "the last of the early adopters".
I learned from this forum is that Zero uses the MIC standard for range calculations.
If you read the test - you may understand why the figures are difficult to attain in real world scenarios.
http://www.mic.org/downloads/MIC-recommended-practice-riding-range-test-procedure-for-on-hwy-electric-motorcycles-042412.pdf (http://www.mic.org/downloads/MIC-recommended-practice-riding-range-test-procedure-for-on-hwy-electric-motorcycles-042412.pdf)
They are good as a comparative between models and makes.
This was an article (slightly off topic I found informative)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100055_2016-nissan-leaf-range-107-or-155-miles-why-test-cycles-can-be-deceptive (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100055_2016-nissan-leaf-range-107-or-155-miles-why-test-cycles-can-be-deceptive)
Older models didn't have the gauge features of the 2017 - so the phone app (mounted to this 55 year old's handlebar) is a welcome compliment.
Commonly we set the "Custom" or "ECO" mode for rain, using must less regenerative braking for optimum control.
I use a lower top speed and torque for training new or unfamiliar riders.
Side stand - I think is over engineered - I've not had a bike with as sturdy a side stand... I use it to pivot and even lift wheels. I love it as an Icon of the bike.
Size is slightly smaller. But big enough for the function and with the history from off-road perhaps could be understandable.
I haven't sat forward on a motorcycle in 20 years... so the form factor does take using core muscles differently. I'm still adjusting to unlocked elbows... but my son (who learned on a Zero ) has no problems.
I'm not a fan of LED lighting - sure the ON time is fast for brakelights, and the power drain is much smaller. I'm not sold on the LED headlamps as presenting actionable information to the rider. My worries go back to an eye tracking experiment (sorry i can't find) where the eye makes more corrections when tracking an object utilizing anything less than Halogen.
I continue to be impressed on what it can do.
end Apologist mode....
Mirrors are a struggle between visibility and profile that I think errored on "profile".
The seat is hard and yet informative (ok a little apologist here) so i wouldn't call it poorly engineered.
Fenders I miss.
Post sale followup is weird but dedicated.
Keep riding - keep us posted. I do like what you are paying attention to. And a venture capitalist who tries the product is a rare breed that merits some reverence.
-
You've got a lot of valid points. The electric motorcycle market is in its infancy and by no means perfect. A lot of is have our reasons for being enthusiastic about it though.
Personally, I love the power delivery of an electric motor. I'm a geek and early adopter. Well - not that early I suppose. Zero have been going for 10 years and I knew I wanted one when I first rode one 5 years ago. Things finally tipped over for me to the point I could now justify one without feeling I'd taken too much of a risk. Yes, price and range aren't quite where I'd like yet. Good enough fur me to make the jump though.
Things are getting better and should continue to do so. Whether it's good enough for you or worth investing in is right now your decision. Hope you're enjoying riding the bike in the meantime though.
-
... my article will incorporate comments, so thank you for your feedback. I will also more strongly emphasize the things I do like about the bike.
I realize the tone of that review is somewhat critical, but our investment committee needs to deal in hard realities. From a purely emotional standpoint, I LOVE the bike, seriously. It's the most fun riding I've had in a long time. Even though we give up the "vroom, vroom" and even though I sometimes miss the connection to the road as expressed through the clutch, the bike is a fun new experience.
-
"In California, where I live, one can not drive a motorcycle off the lot without a Motorcycle license endorsement, which I lacked. "
I'm confused. From portions of your post is sounds as though you have past experience riding motorcycles. Why, then, do you not have a motorcycle endorsement? Have you never attended a motorcycle safety course? If not, why not? It would be helpful if you could let us know how much past experience, on what types of bikes, you have?
"The promised range as quoted in sales literature and in the manual seem to be exaggerated on the order of 25-30%."
Um, yeah. So far as I know the *stated statistics* (which are *not* promises) for any item -- be it a super-computer or a motorcycle, are always "the best possible/obtained given restrictive and specialized testing, etc." I am surprised you, as a venture capitalist, are seemingly unaware of that. As a research scientist it's exactly the same. When you see published results you know that you're being shown the best results the researchers ever obtained, and no, if you attempt to replicate the science, you will not got results that good.
Regards, Dave
-
First of all, welcome, and overall company critique would be much welcome. I've been in the software startup world for over a decade and have some idea what the reasoning investment decisions would entail. The advocacy tenor here is generally because the company does not speak up for itself and is relatively unknown, so the early adopters tend to speak up a lot about the basic principles.
As someone who is mercilessly collating all confirmed observations and such around the platform for various purposes, I have to acknowledge my part in that advocacy, but it's because I see potential in the platform, despite its overall shortcomings. In short, I was inspired by the 2010 ETracer X-Prize entry and Zero's models are still the most likely candidates to grow and be affordable.
I would like to know whether you've evaluated an EV startup before; Zero operates on a modest amount of investment considering their mission and the model pricing primarily reflects scale and battery costs so I just wonder where the expectations start from.
I will say that if you are in the Bay Area, and going up and down elevation or dealing with significant winds (on bridges say), range will not match for all the reasons Zero has published in their guidance. Just about any electric motorcycle ride around here will have significant factors in play for range, much more than for electric cars.
-
And also our relatively cool temperatures this winter in the SF Bay Area seems to drop about 10% off of the warm summertime range or our battery packs. ;)
-
Yup, the bikes are made for shorter people. At 6'4" I find the handlebars too close and a little too low on my '15 SR. I recently installed a handlebar riser and that improved things considerably. I too ran into the "non adjustable" right hand side mirror and wish it was separated from the brake. The mirrors also won't stay in position at highway speeds, unless the stalks are at a certain angle, which is not the ideal angle for me (three mirrors so far, all like that).
The seat is another item that does not allow moving around much. For tall people it is too close forward. And it is angled somewhat too aggressively forward, making me slide forward and away from the comfortable rear end of the seat towards the less comfortable middle and front area. Sure, there is a $400+ option from Corbin that seems to address these issues somewhat, but I don't think it goes far enough from the looks of it to suit me (others have been very happy with it, some find it too stiff). The stock seat is not well padded for me, and has some internal edges that don't get along very well with my bottom - I feel pretty good on it in heavy riding pants, but with lighter riding pants or regular pants it becomes uncomfortable for me after just 10 miles. I've put about 2,500 miles on my bike so far, so I don't expect that feeling to disappear.
This is a naked bike, not intended for use with an over-the-chin windscreen, so none is offered. You could have tried the touring instead of the commuter screen. Better protection. Several of us taller folks have experimented with even bigger screens, that are 24" tall (the biggest Zero offers is something like 19" or thereabouts). Those huge screens do offer very good protection and for someone like you at 6' you will be completely protected.
Yup, rear fender would be nice. There is a popular $15 option made for Harleys that fits almost perfectly - just needs a fairly simple to make custom bracket (search around on these forums, you will find it).
Range as mentioned is measured under certain controlled conditions. Mine is consistent with the estimates - if I cruise on the highway with little change in speed on a fairly flat road without much headwind, I am getting reasonably close to the posted estimates for my model. Heavier and taller riders will get somewhat worse mileage, especially at highway speeds.
-
Show me any vehicle that will get its claimed fuel economy in real world driving! But for interest I have got better city range than claimed, only because of traffic slowing things down so much. Slower speed = more range.
I have my Zero because I love the electric power delivery and the ease and joy of riding it.
I don't know that the S 6.5 is the best bike to judge electric bike on. Why didn't you get an SR?
If you think the S has more than enough power in eco mode then you are not indicative of the majority of ppl that will buy a motor bike.
What is the point of testing a product that will not be purchased by ppl like you. Its like a man testing high heal shoes or a bra. You will most likely find them uncomfortable but women have gotten used to this already and it would not be an issue to them.
I would suggest you also buy a petrol powered bike of similar size to compare what the market expects/puts up with.
Show me a perfect product that fits everyone?
-
@grmarks I will try my best to "read between the lines" and hope you're thinking of good intentions.
Making a recommendation of the Zero Motorcycles line-up should compare to other 2-wheeled EV products out there currently in production. Hint: Nothing currently in production hits the performance and price point of Zero Motorcycles vehicles.
Zero bikes are admittedly bland in options and styling. There's no return on after-sale care because most of their research capital is tied up making one physical production bike model that you can slap a different regulatory label on and sell to a worldwide market. That's why we have a 10-years current Zero Motorcycles manufacturer and not some defunct label left to the past.
Also I do think Zero Motorcycles as a brand has much more to go towards mainstream adoption. I'm not concerned as an owner with everyone to want this instead of a Harley or Yamaha. I don't care about that. It is fun, and I think it is a fair value.
-
I also find your story a bit "off" but since I have no proof and it doesn't really matter anyway I except your on the up and up.
First off my understanding is Zero is backed by some pretty deep pockets and is private and not looking for outside help but I could be wrong.
Next the 6.5 S is of course a new model and was strange to me as it was basically two steps backwards in it's own evolution. The new R models are impressive rides compared to anything short of a super sport bike off the line.
At six foot I think you'd have been happier on the DSR with it's more upright position and enjoyed the high end torque which is what makes these bikes attractive to an average rider anyway. Strange that you would buy one and not just test the whole line first but no more strange than not having a license and looking to invest.
Range is less but so is any MPG stats on any car or truck when used in the real world. That is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the 6.5 because for about 5 grand more you get twice the range and so much more "fun" from an R.
The only other thing I can say is the company backs up its warranty very well and though they do need to better handle customer calls and questions, for a small company they do a good job.
Good luck and safe riding.
-
@grmarks I will try my best to "read between the lines" and hope you're thinking of good intentions.
Just trying to make the point ridiculously clear. If he is not a "rider" then he doesn't know what riders want and are happy with.
-
On my 2016 FXS I'm perfectly happy with the published range vs actual range.
I think it's pretty much spot on at normal temperatures.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php)
They're claiming 41 miles at highway speeds, why are you expecting 60?
I think your complaint about the motorcycle endorsement is ridiculous. These are dangerous machines, the buyer should be able to competently ride one.
-
I too wish my mirrors were a couple of inches wider - except when I am splitting lanes, then I wish they were a couple of inches shorter. Which just goes to show that you can't please everyone all of the time. ;)
The Zero's seat has been my biggest complaint about my 2014 S. It is too hard and uncomfortable for me, although a big improvement over the 2012 S that I used to own. I installed an Air Hawk pad on the seat, which helped a lot, but I still think Zero needs to make their seats flatter and softer.
Fenders/mudguards are an issue for me too, but most modern motorcycle models seem to be lacking in that area. My new BMW R1200RS has almost no rear fender protection and not much coverage of the front fender, either. Both receive a lot of complaints from BMW owners - which BMW ignores. ::) BMW and most other motorcycle brands used to do a lot better when it comes to keeping water and debris off of the rider and the chassis. (Of course cruisers, like H-D and Indian, have a style that provides a lot of wheel protection.) Just riding over a damp road on my BMW will result in the entire bike being covered with dirt and water spots. Zero is actually better in this regard and their bikes are much easier to clean due to having fewer nooks and crannies and not having a hot exhaust system to bake on gorp. The lack of decent fender coverage seems to be mostly a styling thing, but I do wish Zero would go against this styling trend.
So far, my 2014 S has has been completely reliable and has never had to visit the shop for repairs or maintenance. That has saved me a lot of money, compared with servicing a BMW (as an example), where you typically get charged several hundred dollars for an oil and filter change and resetting the "service reminder" warning date. A major service on a BMW, that includes valve adjustments, can easily run over $600. (Add $1000 more for their K1600GT.) Those servicing costs add up over the years and really help to cut into the initial relatively high purchase price for the Zero - or any electric motorcycle, for that matter. :)
-
I rode my S 6.5 in to work this morning. 17.7 miles, of which 7-9 of that is freeway (sort of depends on what you count as "freeway"). Because I'm still feeling out the range, I've been keeping my freeway speeds at between 50-55 mph. I arrived at work with 76% charge.
It was a bit warmer this morning than it has been, but still cool, low 50's, so range is at least slightly diminished du to that.
I can't tell if the original poster took the appropriate factors into account in his range estimates. My S 6.5 seems to be tracking specifications.
The seat is threadbare. It's an EV, so it doesn't need an all day comfortable seat. I don't see this as a major fault.
Stock mirrors are not great, but that's true of a great many motorcycles. I put on CRG diamonds and the problem solved. Bike looks much less wonky now too.
-
Lots of great points being made. I will try to make time to reply to as many as possible later. For now, a couple quick points: Early adopters don't tend to make up enough of a market, necessitating penetration to the "average" consumer. Many posters list the numerous modifications that they immediately made to the bike. Hopefully, many will come to understand that a product that needs so many "out of the box" modifications is not ready for the mass market.
As we evaluate business models, our group has noted that the primary profit center for Zero likely isn't sales, but rather government incentives. As an owner, my concern is that their lack of after-sales support is indicative of an intention to exit the market when incentives expire.
One other quick point: The very first thing our marketing director noted was the abject failure of Zero to utilize even the most basic marketing efforts. For example, both this forum and the Facebook page have no actual company presence. I can't emphasize enough how basic a failure that is.
Here's one more quickie: Many of you, as advocates, seem to have done more to advance the consumer understanding of this product. There's one person in particular that our group noted and we are at a loss to determine why, after years of pushing their product, Zero hasn't hired BrianTRice...
-
They probably can't afford him 8)
-
I have to admit to being a little bit baffled about peoples' buying habits sometimes. In particular, why would anybody make a large purchase like a vehicle without having done enough research to have a very good idea what it is (and is not) that they're purchasing?
The Zero is not entirely like other bikes, and EVs in general are not exactly like other vehicles, ICE vehicles in particular. If you don't have a fairly good understanding of the differences, well enough to have a good idea whether an EV will or will not suit your needs, you should pretty seriously consider staying on the beaten path. I'm sometimes shocked how many people seem to have purchased Zeros without so much as a test ride.
The Zero is not a fire-breathing superbike, so if you're looking to carve up the canyons at triple-digit speeds, it's not a good fit for your needs. It's not a 1000-mile-per-day tourer, Terry's grit and determination notwithstanding. It's not a "high image" machine like a Harley. It's subject to range and charge time limitations, like most EVs, which get worse as speeds increase. That needs to be factored in if you do plan on high-speed fun rides or blast down the Autobahn.
But what the Zero is, it's world-class at. There's almost literally no way for me to complete my commute cheaper day in, day out...even San Diego's light rail would cost me more. Its torque delivery at low speed more than makes up for its relatively short legs on the high end, in 90%+ of use cases. If you're even slightly concerned about the environment, EVs are an essential part of our future stewardship, and some of us are going to have to step up as early adopters to bring solutions to the mainstream. Maintenance is infrequent, cheap and easy, though reliability isn't quite where it could be due to Zero still being a relatively young vehicle manufacturer.
But there are other rewards, too, perhaps not as tangible, but a simple test ride will reveal many of them. The torque is awesome, the silence is amazing, but to me the very best feature of the bike is its pure responsiveness. No other bike can jump as quickly on the freeway without the need for shifting down a couple of times or fanning the clutch to bring the RPMs up. Zero has kept the weight down and the geometry quick so it positively seems to read your mind sometimes. The sheer fun quotient is higher on my bike than any other bike I've ever ridden.
I don't claim the Zero is the perfect bike, but neither is any other. The Zero fits almost all of my needs very well, and although I'd love to be able to ride it farther and charge faster, on balance it's still made me happier than any other bike, and the proof is that I've got 30,000 miles on it, far more than I've ever put on any other bike.
-
Employees of Zero Motorcycles read most of these forums but do rarely comment on them.
Tesla Motors does no advertising, either, it is all advocacy. When the Model 3 is deliverable the thing sells itself because it will be both familiar mid-level pricing and cutting-edge technology. You are not competing with ICE instead it is a long game to win consumer adoption, after which the best product at its price will be the leader.
People who want a 2-wheeled EV will want a Zero or not, but what other manufacturer sells them?
-
I'm going to agree with Doug S. comments above. I didn't buy my S model to replace any of my existing ICE PTWs. I bought it solely as a commuter and errand-runner and it is absolutely unbeatable in that role. Almost 90% of my riding is commuting and running errands; I still have a full time job and can't just take off for days at a time on my bikes like I'd prefer (maybe one day I'll hit the Powerball or Megamillions, but until that time I have to work).
Using the Zero for day-to-day riding also saves wear and tear (and the not insignificant maintenance costs) on my two ICE bikes. So far this month, here on Long Island (where we're enjoying a warmer than usual January) I've already logged 400 miles on the Zero compared to just over 100 miles on my C650GT and just over 80 miles on my K1200LT (the only ride I've done on that bike is a "Round Manhattan" ride on New Year's Day).
The Zero is enough fun that I will take it out on pure "joy rides" on the weekends too... as long as the ride is local and under 100 miles. Surprisingly, I have quite a few of those in the summer, too. The C650GT gets used when it's too cold to take the Zero. Besides the built-in heated saddle and hand grips it also has enough electrical reserve to power my heated vest or jacket liner without having to worry if I'll make it home or not. With it's cavernous underseat storage it also serves as a decent grocery runner too. Finally, it makes a great "backup" bike to the K1200LT if I have a trip scheduled and the K1200LT is out of commission for one reason or another (doesn't happen often, but it HAS happened).
So yes, I did my homework before buying my S. I even took a test ride on an SR and although I LOVED the sheer acceleration of that bike I wasn't ready to pay several thousand dollars OVER the cost of the S combined with triple the insurance premium. The 2016 S is zippy enough and the 2017 S is even zippier.
Do I have any complaints? Just one BIG one (and it's been mentioned here as well): I'd love to be able to get a shop manual but one doesn't seem to exist; even for the servicing dealers! I don't plan on doing any of my own work but I WOULD like to know basic torque figures, wiring diagrams and part numbers. I really don't think that is too much to ask.
-
I had my S 6.5 mostly in eco mode for the first week just to make sure I had enough range for my daily rounds (I do, easily). Yesterday put it in sport mode in the city. What a blast this bike is as a streetfighter. A teeny bit sluggish off the line compared to my erstwhile Empulse. But so light and flickable, and acceleration from 20 to 40 makes carving up traffic so easy and an absolute joy.
-
I continue to appreciate all the advocacy this site does for Zero. Just imagine what could be accomplished for the company, if they actually did some of their own marketing. By the way, marketing is not "advertising". A company that doesn't effectively market isn't likely to succeed in the long run. If the company is "watching" the forum, what do you suppose is their reason for no longer interacting, as they were doing some years back?? What success will that strategy lead to?
It looks like the thread has devolved into the typical defense-of-purchase approach. I'm curious as to what, if any, reaction there might have been to the idea that the business model isn't sales, but government incentive, driven, but I think the initial points about the forum largely being populated by engineers and advocates is more significant than initially estimated.
Our group isn't likely to seek an investment in Zero, but rather, might consider the opportunities left on the table by Zero, which seem to be adding up.
-
If the original poster came here for fact checking, I hope he accomplished some of that. His estimate that the range is 20-30% less than represented is clearly wrong, though we can't rule out that there is something wrong with his particular bike.
I don't really get the "advocacy," and "defense of purchase" comments. I think the Zero is a great product. I'm happy to tell anyone why. If someone who doesn't even have a motorcycle license and just bought one pops up on the internet with a few obvious criticisms (the seat is thin, etc . . .), am i suddenly "defending my purchase"? I don't think so. I think I'm just continuing to describe a great product.
Is it an unfair ad hominem attack to bring up the motorcycle license? I don't think so. If I was a potential investor, I'd want a review from an experienced motorcyclist, someone who has logged tens of thousands of miles on many different bike. I'm making an assumption here, but my guess anyone like that has an M license.
Should anyone invest in an electric motorcycle company? I have no idea. They obviously haven't caught on to any great extent. It's a shame, because having owned 3 of them I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've spent a lot of my own money on them because in my mind there is no better way to commute. I tell people this all the time because it's the truth. And they're just getting better. what's not to be excited about?
-
JBC444,
I wouldn't consider myself to be an advocate for Zero, but I do like to think that I've made a good purchase (2016 FXS). Here are some comments.
I find it strange that nobody has pointed out that you've picked what most would consider to be the least desirable model (neglecting consideration for price) out of the lineup. This is not an attack against you, but you really don't sound like a motorcycle rider when I read your review. Read through reviews of other bikes, and you'll see that people with 6 foot frames frequently complain about the bikes feeling small. The windscreen and seat aren't that important to me for comfort. The short range of the bike prevents anyone from being on the bike long enough to get fatigued. There are tons of "naked" bikes that don't have screens fitted on them, and this fits that styling. I feel that people are more often getting windscreens to try to improve range, which is reported to be effective. Lots of bikes sell with pretty crappy OEM seats and mirrors. I'd almost consider it somewhat of a standard for motorcycles. I find the side stand plenty adequate and center stands are rare for bikes this small.
I agree with you on the lack of desire to use the app while riding. I don't have any suggestions to make it better, I just don't have a use for it. I also share your disappointment with Zero's lack of marketing/customer care. I fear having to go through a warranty issue or major repair with this bike. Thankfully, it has been dead reliable in the 6 months that I've owned it, but that fear was the biggest factor that held me back from making a purchase for quite some time.
I find your suggestion that Zero is positioned to exit the market when government incentives dry up very interesting. I don't have enough basis to agree or disagree with you, but would like to hear more. Is there precedent for this kind of business practice? What predictions do you have?
Given how small the market is, and the relatively poor success of other electric motorcycle manufacturers, do you really think there are viable opportunities left of the table by Zero? If so, what are they? I had assumed that the next step would be one of the established motorcycle brands bringing an electric to market, either through their own engineering or by acquiring Zero. We all saw how that worked out with Brammo/Polaris, so I'm not holding my breath. Again, I'm curious what you predict will happen on this front.
-
I live in San Diego and own a 2016 S 6.5. I couldn't make it through the entire interview because I saw it going off the rails (no pun intended). Two points:
>> motorcycle endorsement
We can argue about the usefulness of this and many other CA laws but its not relevant to a motorcycle review. But the law -is- clear. I didn't have a motorcycle endorsement on my CA drivers license so I went through a third party training program that ate up about 16 hours of my time. I actually found it kind of fun (if you enjoy 16 hours of sarcasm by the instructor). I then walked into the CA DMV and had the endorsement in about 15 minutes. And yes you can get through a CA DMV in no time if you actually plan ahead).
>>While I have not run the bike completely dry and stranded myself, I am fairly certain that, under any circumstances, it is unlikely to go any further than 60 miles or so.
My commute is 23.5 miles garage to garage all highways speeds. If I go 75 MPH (1 mile lower than where the highway patrols will start picking you off on HW15) I show up at the office with 51% on the battery. I've managed to do this exactly once on a sunday morning. But as highway speeds vary due to traffic I usually show up at the office around 60% to 65% on the battery (going between 30 and 80MPH). I've exceeded the Zero speced "city" mileage of 81 miles a couple of times on one charge so I actually think their specs are on the low side.
Lastly ... I'm not a guy who goes on long motorcycle weekend trips (I actually spend most of my time on a peddle bike in my spare time) so that already makes me not your standard motorcycle owner. I bought the bike for one purpose. To commute to work and it fits the need perfectly.
-
I continue to appreciate all the advocacy this site does for Zero.
Advocacy? Is a person an "advocate" who likes a product and reports that? You're making it sound like we're a bunch of sheep with no independent thought processes. In reality, my evaluation is that we're a bunch of highly intelligent, motivated, independent, passionate motorcyclists who really love the product Zero has created. We're very well aware of the shortcomings as well as the advantages, and on balance we're very impressed. Don't trivialize that by lumping us together as "advocates".
Just imagine what could be accomplished for the company, if they actually did some of their own marketing. By the way, marketing is not "advertising". A company that doesn't effectively market isn't likely to succeed in the long run. If the company is "watching" the forum, what do you suppose is their reason for no longer interacting, as they were doing some years back?? What success will that strategy lead to?
Marketing is a tool that's used to generate sales, which is very often a concern for companies in general, but may not be the roadblock Zero is currently facing. Tesla doesn't bother with marketing or advertising because they're already selling every single vehicle they can build. Their current struggle is ramping up production to the point where they NEED to generate sales. I suspect Zero is in the same situation. There's no need for marketing if you're selling out every production run.
It looks like the thread has devolved into the typical defense-of-purchase approach.
Wow. I haven't seen anybody do that. We're simply trying to explain to someone who doesn't seem to want to understand what we do and don't like about the product. Interpret that as you wish, but if that's what you think you've seen, I'm really beginning to question your judgment.
I'm curious as to what, if any, reaction there might have been to the idea that the business model isn't sales, but government incentive, driven...
Ah. Second time you've tried to make that point, so now we're getting down to it, aren't we? I'm not going to actually call you a troll like I have some people, your comments to date fall far short of that, but that is a pretty "trollish" thing to say, especially on an EV forum, don't you think? If you really think Zero is in business to chase those delicious government dollars, I consider my suspicions about your judgment pretty much confirmed. I'm 100% convinced that's not why they're in business, especially given that they don't seem to have any particular financial problems --they're bringing prices down every year, and selling more and more vehicles every year, even through some fairly tough times for vehicle manufacturers.
Our group isn't likely to seek an investment in Zero, but rather, might consider the opportunities left on the table by Zero, which seem to be adding up.
Why? If you're not going to invest, why do you care? Do you just want to sit back and throw stones or is there some other purpose to watching on the sidelines?
-
Our group isn't likely to seek an investment in Zero, but rather, might consider the opportunities left on the table by Zero, which seem to be adding up.
Why? If you're not going to invest, why do you care? Do you just want to sit back and throw stones or is there some other purpose to watching on the sidelines?
Scratching my head ... is Zero at all interested in "investments" by groups like yours? They seem to be doing pretty darn O.K. in the ten years they've been producing bikes.
I've no idea what "opportunities left on the table by Zero" means. Could you elaborate?
-
JBC444 I am in Australia and I have no idea about US government incentive, do they get incentives for US sales or for each bike manufactured?
-
Since this has transitioned into a "why we like or dislike our zeros", here's my opinion from an 16 SR owner of just over a year...
I have been riding Suzuki and Triumph ICE cruisers and various dirt bikes for many years. I, on a whim, went to test ride a zero. Sales guy put me on both a DSR and SR. Loved both. Would've gone with the DSR for the dual-purpose capability but it was a couple inches too tall (as most dual purposes seem to be for me; don't get me started about KTMs or Kawasakis) and I didn't want to mess with a lowering link or the suspension or forks. I had wood when I dismounted both bikes after those first test rides.
I've got just over 1K miles on the SR in the past year and all of them have been for the purpose of joy. I thought I would use it for commuting, but quickly found that my other bikes do a better job at that based on my requirements.
I used to surf Orange County beaches growing up and haven't been able since an injury to my knee while serving in Iraq. But I can still ride. And I ride the shit out of my SR, often testing the 102 governor and taking corners in the mountains like I would when attacking a wave on my board. It genuinely reminds me of the body mechanics used while surfing. Balance, body coordination timed with environmental indicators, etc. My other ICE bikes don't make me feel that. When folks ask what it is like to ride (and they ask often), I tell them, "you ever see the movie Tron? I'm the blue dude on the light cycle with this thing".
Granted, I am absolutely an outlier from the mass market that will need be penetrated for Zero to become Tesla-like; cult-followed and lusted after by just about every motorist out there. But for me, my SR is like a third child in that it brings out emotions in me that I don't feel while riding the other bikes or participating in other activities. Perhaps it's the instant torque on demand, or how I can flick it around like it's a broomstick between my legs, or who knows why.
I had/have reservations about buying a $17K toy from a start-up in an unproven market that is still trying to figure itself out. But as of this moment, I've had very few problems, feel good about taking some Co2s out of the atmosphere, and still get wood each and every time I ride. Like half a Cialis type wood.
Zero has certainly not matured (as one would hope for a 10+ year old business) on a pace that many business experts would have liked to observe, but from what I hear, the folks in Scotts Valley feel great about their prospects in a growing (albeit, slowly) industry and they are aware that folks like me exist. And the staff, from two different engineers I've spoken with, to the regional sales guy, to Dave who travels the country selling the idea, to the lady who answers the phone ... they all buy-in. In my book, that means that at least they give a damn about their individual missions within the overall org.
Agreed, the dealer arrangements, parts-ordering, warranty-confusion and marketing efforts could be improved/expanded. But, as far as I'm concerned, I'm good with having one of the only ones in the region and feeling somewhat special that I lucked into it on a lark.
One thing that strikes me as odd from the OP is that if he is a vc that is genuinely potentially interested in putting a substantial amount of capital into zero, aren't all the shortcomings brought up pretty easily addressable. Moreover, doesn't OP have folks in his group whose sole job is to go in and redirect outfits that are missing out on potential opportunities for growth and maturation? Like the dudes who put fires out so the org accomplishes what it is capable of?
I dunno. Maybe I just have no idea how all that works.
-
JBC444 I am in Australia and I have no idea about US government incentive, do they get incentives for US sales or for each bike manufactured?
Politically right-wing people in our country often say things like that, implying or outright stating that companies like Tesla and Zero are getting rich off of government subsidies. In reality, neither Tesla nor Zero receive a dime from the government subsidy of electric vehicles. It's the PURCHASER of the vehicle that receives a tax credit for some portion of the purchase price of the vehicle. It varies a bit from year to year, and some states also kick in a few dollars, but a typical tax credit has been 10% of the price of the vehicle, subject to a $7,500 maximum. It seems very unlikely that any form of subsidy will be renewed under our new administration.
Again, Zero doesn't receive any of that money. It is true that it makes purchasing an EV somewhat easier, driving up sales a bit, which is (of course) the point of a subsidy. There are also occasionally grants and/or loans given to companies of all sorts, such as the loan given to Tesla early on in its development (which they paid back early), but those aren't based on production numbers, and I'm not aware of any major grants and/or loans being given to Zero, Brammo, or any of the other electric motorcycle manufacturers.
-
Doug I miss the 10% all ready but even though the buyer gets a, say $1600 tax credit, that's just a way for the government to give Zero or Tesla or any EV maker the money only after they make a sale. Think about it you give Zero a $16,000 check (more with all the extras but MSRP) they keep all that money you get $1600 from the gov but it really went to Zero in the form of them being able to charge $16,000 instead of $14,400, which was your out of pocket cost in the end anyway. I hate to say it but if they don't bring the credit back by May, Zero will have to drop their prices. They can't miss the spring and summer buying season trying to keep higher prices.
-
I find this whole thread a bit odd to be honest. Why would a VC really care about riding the bike or whether quoted mileage is accurate in the real world? All you need to know is in the numbers of the company and projections for the industry.
-
The one month ownership seems like a poor metric to entirely evaluate a product, and that month being in the worst case scenario time of year (winter) only further questions the method of evaluation, a minimum of one year should be used to properly conclude a simple example, three years plus experience past the warranty would be more ideal, Nevermind the lack of cross platform examination
-
Zero did receive a $1 million grant from the Obama administration in 2012 that was used for the development of the motor used in the 2013 and later models. I also seem to recall that the county of Santa Cruz gave them a substantial grant or loan to set up their factory in Scotts Valley. But then this was the time when a lot of private companies were receiving economic stimulus loans to help the economy get out of the Great Recession. It was a good thing for them that Obama was running things at the time as I doubt they would have gotten a cent from You Know Who.
-
...that's just a way for the government to give Zero or Tesla or any EV maker the money only after they make a sale.
That's one perspective, I suppose, but I don't agree with it at all. Is the mortgage interest deduction a giveaway to banks? Of course not. Its purpose, and its actual effect, is to make it easier for people like us to buy property. Of course that increases the bank's business, which does benefit the bank, and as I said in my post, the EV subsidy does benefit the manufacturer. But it's just kind of silly to say that the mortgage interest deduction is done as a giveaway to the banks, or that it's an unfair business practice to people who rent properties instead of selling them. It's just the government's way of supporting something they want to encourage people to do.
-
This thread has a fictional air about it from the beginning. Sort of like someone having fun by saying "I've got a bunch of money I might give to your favorite company but, oops, no, you didn't convince me the product is good enough."
The best way to evaluate the Zero is to compare it to an ICE bike in an actual commute scenario over a substantial period of time. How it benefits you in the context of a day in day out grind is where the real value is -- the kind of value that should draw in more users if they only could experience it themselves. That's my opinion.
-
This thread has a fictional air about it from the beginning. Sort of like someone having fun by saying "I've got a bunch of money I might give to your favorite company but, oops, no, you didn't convince me the product is good enough."
The best way to evaluate the Zero is to compare it to an ICE bike in an actual commute scenario over a substantial period of time. How it benefits you in the context of a day in day out grind is where the real value is -- the kind of value that should draw in more users if they only could experience it themselves. That's my opinion.
Amen, brother. I'm with you about the "reality" of this thread overall, but even more so about your second point.
A vehicle is a tool, plain and simple. Evaluate how it fills your needs, decide if it's the best solution for you, and make your purchase decision based on that. Yes, EVs have range and charge time issues. Don't under- or overestimate those, just carefully consider how much of an effect they're going to have on you in your real-world circumstance. Do the same with the EV's other characteristics as well. In reality, most of us put on a huge number of commuting miles a couple dozen miles per day, and an EV can't be beat at that task. Whether the EV's range and charge time issues are show-stoppers for you are something you need to work out. Don't panic because it isn't like what you've done before, just evaluate the realities. In my opinion, people very strongly overestimate the range/charge time issues, and very badly underestimate the EV's value as king of commuting.
-
I guess Zero get more US sales which props up the company at the moment, but I am sure they want to get to a point where the price is competitive with ICE bikes and then they won't need propping up. Lets hope they survive the current administration.
Many people outside of the US are expecting an assassination if he steps on the wrong toes!
-
The seat is uncomfortable and poorly engineered, the mirrors are nearly useless in their original configuration and only minimally adjustable. The right mirror assembly is integrated into the brake handle, meaning that if you re-position the mirror, you also re-position the brake handle inaccessibly. The headlight seems inadequate and a poor choice, given how much better and modern LEDs would have been. I find the side stand doesn't inspire confidence and anticipate that, sooner or later, it will fall over if the ground surface isn't perfect. While a center stand might require some thought, some thought would have been a worthwhile investment when it comes to a safe, stable center stand.
JBC444,
I do appreciate your attempt to analyze a product, but would like to point out that I think you don't understand why Zero is actually so successful in the first place despite some of your very justified criticism, which I in part agree with and in part I think is ridiculous of you to even bring it up.
Zero is very successful because of people who don't analyze a product like you do, but who's decision to support endeavors like theirs is driven by conviction and passion for the overall idea and way overdue final push to get a smarter concept realized.
Your section of critisism of the mirrors, the side stand and the seat is clearly showing that you don't have a lot of experience with motorbikes.
I have been riding the complete lineup of all Ducati motorcycles last year which is equally expensive and exclusive, and all of them had the absolutely typical uncomfortable seats, almost useless mirrors and other things that one would think is impossible to get away with for a pricy and prestige laden product like that.
Given that traditionally Italian motor vehicles get away with more of those flaws than let's say BMW for example.
In 33 years of riding on a varity of motorbikes I have found that mirrors in their traditional configuration are all very limited in their usage.
I have never come across a different setup on the throttle side that would separate the mirror and the brake assembly, and the limit of adjustability lies in the range of montion of the ball joint of the mirror rather the attachment point of the mirror itself.
I am glad Zero is not trying to develop their own peripheral components, since it would take away time and resources that are needed for drive train and chassis integration etc.
They have to deal with the cards they are dealt with from the peripheral industry.
And I am not saying that it is a perfect solution, but as far as motorycles and a reason to add uncecessary criticism to the zero bikes, they almost all have this configuration and it is not a problem whatsoever.
Anybody who has tried bar end mirrors finds out that that is the way to go anyway.
They are small, but mighty.
The convex type allows you to see the entire street behind you from both mirrors, they never block the view, you can fold them up for lane splitting and they don't look stupid like mikey mouse like all the stock mirrors.
Seat, really, the seat looks slick, nicely designed and engineered, but is uncomfortable.
Would you want a better seat on a 17,000 dollar bike, yes, but I can care less, since I got a superb drive train, a superior technology to everything else out there at this point and the aftermarket industry traditionally takes care of those issues.
And lastly, I am not sure if I need a bunch of money driven venture capitalists to be involved in this industry. That sounded harsher and meaner than I feel about it, but I simply don't care for money driven people and their input.
You do seem to be an articulated, intelligent and nice person, so please, don't let my aversion to money "capitalists" insult you personally, that is not my intention at all.
But in my opinion, this industry lives and dies with their groups of supporters and small time investors like me, and not groups that jump on profitable ideas for the sake of making money.
We Zero owners are in this for the concept, the conviction, the passion, the right thing to do you name it, a million reasons but the money.
So, I do commend your efforts, I do see the value of what you are trying to do, I appreciate the what seems to be an honest approach, but some of your criticism is completely unjustified since it holds true for the entire motorcycle industry and shouldn't be pointed out on bikes that need support and not hair splitting, penetrantic unecessary and actually flat out untrue statements like for example your side stand issue.
This side stand looks like it is holding the bike together. It looks like is is responsible for half the energy consumption of the battery pack, it is the strongest and most overengineered side stand I have ever seen and the foot is larger than most I have ever seen as well, and for the fact that it would sink in on lose ground, that holds true for every single bike out there and they sell a thing for that if you happen to park on soft ground all the time.
So, no hard feelings, I ectually enjoyed reading your report, but to be really honest, a venture capital group is irrelevant for the success of this product and is irellevant for pretty much any project that is driven by passion. Those will prevail no matter what, with your money or without it. It gets my money any day.
Oh, I do agree with you that Zero could, with very little effort build up a better customer relation department (just hire a nice professional front desk person who welcomes new owners with a phone call and make them feel at home) that would make owners feel a bit more welcome etc, but I cannot help it but be ok with all that, since I know they are hunkered down writing code and picking new components to make my next Zero even more impressively performing.
To close this up, overall I really appreciate your efforts and the time you are investing into this and your openness to share your opinion and experiences with all of us.
It is important to get the views of outsiders and I simply wanted to express some of our views, or at least mine, that make the flaws that these bikes have, which are actually not relevant and again, applicable across most of the bike line ups from other brands, well... irrelevant.
If you find spelling mistakes, you can keep them :)
Rider7
-
Oh, and it looks like that sentiment that your evaluation isn't really applicable to Zero specific features is reflected by many users here.
Your more or less side mentioning of how awesome this bike is, drowns in critisism that doesn't reflect anything relevant to the ownership of these amazing bikes.
Rider7
-
To be honest, these days I'm finding it hard to justify owning an ICE bike anymore, the ones I have have literally and actually rotted on the side of the road due to lack of use, for one I like the convenience of never having to interrupt my journey to work and waste time by filling up.
-
Well, I confess I DID take the C650GT to work today as the temperatures will be below freezing all day. With a full tank of gas, I don't have to worry about the range and there is enough spare electrical capacity to power the heated saddle, heated grips AND my heated vest (not to mention the superior wind protection afforded by the height-adjustable windshield and full fairing).
However, I have so far this year (since New Year's Day) put over 500 miles on the Zero and just cracked 100 on the scooter so you know which bike I prefer when the weather permits. I was tempted to get the Corbin saddle just for the looks. Long range comfort doesn't mean much on a bike you can only ride for about two hours or so, and the money for the Corbin could be better spent on other things (like the new washing machine I didn't know I'd need this year).
By the way, in a full tuck it IS possible to adjust the mirrors to give you a decent view of what is behind you. I just noticed this the other day as I've been riding in a full tuck this winter far more often than I ever did in the summer (hey, it's COLD and I can get out of most of the air stream by lying down on the "tank." It helps also make up for the slightly reduced range in the winter, too).
-
I guess Zero get more US sales which props up the company at the moment, but I am sure they want to get to a point where the price is competitive with ICE bikes and then they won't need propping up. Lets hope they survive the current administration.
Many people outside of the US are expecting an assassination if he steps on the wrong toes!
Is there someone in the world that hasn't had their toes stepped on by the current administration yet? ::) And we still have almost 4 years to go. :o Happy days are here again! ;)
-
penetrantic
That's not a word. But it should be. :D
-
I have not posted in a while though I still visit. I read the OP review there seems to be a lack of riding experience. The issues he stated are issues that can be found on any motorcycle forum. Seats, mirrors, handlebar height there is no one size fits all. I was looking to buy a Zero a while back and put it on hold to buy another ice bike a Versys 650LT the reason being my riding style, where I live and ride. I weighed things out and it was not Zero time yet. The Zero is still in my sights though. That being said there are many faults with the Versys that I could go on any forum and complain about seat and windshield being two of them. I think that Zero deserves credit for all they have done for the industry. And as a right winger I am all for government spending in new technology. I just like making sure the money is used appropriate manner. The new administration may prove out to be of value for Zero if some of the imports are taxed to level the playing field (and yes I am guilty of buying these imports). As a manufacturer here in New England we are already starting to see work that we lost overseas coming back.This is a big win for us little guys. Any way don't want to get off subject here, I don't care if you are advocates, crusaders, or just lovers of these bikes.
PLEASE Keep it going this is a great forum with great information .
thank you
-
I do hate that they lie about the range in their advertising and from their salespeople, and wish they would stop doing that. In 2016, I was told (in the same breath) that the base SR is "super fast, with great acceleration, and gets at least 100 miles per charge" (at Hollywood Electrics they told me this), when later I found out that the range is actually about 65 miles if you go super fast with great acceleration; you can only get 100 miles if you use ECO mode and keep your speed below 60mph. And now in 2017 they are claiming 200 miles per charge if you get the extra battery... I bet that is also quite a stretch from reality.
Anyway, my 2016 SR is my primary vehicle and I love it, but making false claims does nobody any good.
-
I'm not sure what could be confusing about the range claims. They give you figures for "city," "highway at 55," "highway at 70," and "combined." All are quite accurate as far as I can tell.
If you're saying the falsehood was in something a salesperson said to you, well, that's a different story. My advice to you would be to take anything a salesperson says with a pound of salt.
There's a certain amount of due diligence anyone should do before shopping for an EV. The fact that range and speed are inversely related is easy to discover.
But the important thing is, your Zero works for you!
-
I do hate that they lie about the range in their advertising and from their salespeople, and wish they would stop doing that....Anyway, my 2016 SR is my primary vehicle and I love it, but making false claims does nobody any good.
Years and years ago, in the fledgling days of computers, 1kB meant 1024 (which is a very convenient power of two), and 1MB meant 1024 * 1024, or 1,048,576 bytes. You'd buy a 20MB hard drive (I know, it seems ridiculous now, doesn't it?) and it would actually be able to contain 20,971,520 bytes of data.
But then some bright marketing boi pointed out that his company's "80 megabyte" hard drive could actually hold 83.886 million bytes, and the metric prefix "mega" actually means a million, not 1024^2, so referring to it as an "83.8 megabyte" drive would be nonstandard, but not actually untrue, and would make that company's drives look a little better than the competition's. Of course, that was only true for about a week, until the other companies adopted the "new standard" and everybody's drives looked the same again.
Similarly, when solar panels first came out, they were rated by their actual output capability, but another bright marketing boi noticed that the ratings weren't regulated, so if he took the very highest voltage the panel can put out (no-load or "open-circuit" voltage) and multiplied it by the current the panel produces into a short circuit, he'd get a higher number that makes his product look better than the competition's -- never mind the fact that the panel has no shot in hell of ever actually producing that voltage and current at the same time. Again, it made his product look better for about a week, now everybody's panels are rated the same...if you don't rate your panels that way, your product looks inferior just because your marketing team is honest.
EVs are the same way. For my 2014 SR, they took the very highest open-circuit voltage the battery pack puts out, 114V, and multiplied it by its nominal Ah capacity, 100 Ah, to give it its 11.4 kWh rating. But we all know the battery voltage drops considerably the instant you apply any load, drops even more as the battery discharges, and some of the capacity is reserved by the manufacturer to avoid damaging the battery by discharging it very low. The upshot is the usable capacity is realistically more like 10 kWh, but again, if you rate it realistically, your EV will look inferior to another company's, even though they're exactly the same. One marketing person tried to game the system and now everybody has to lie.
It's easy to get on any manufacturer for exaggerating their range performance, because they all do it. They all do it because they HAVE to do it. If they don't lie like everyone else does, people will think their product is inferior, even if it as good or better than the others.
-
Hey, I've been riding long enough to remember when manufacturers used to hire Pee Wee Gleason to do their quarter mile testing. The guy weighs MAYBE 100 lbs in soaking wet leather and was a professional motorcycle drag racer. Normal mortals didn't have a prayer in HELL of matching those quarter mile times but those were the ones advertised by just about EVERY manufacturer.
Some things NEVER change.
-
Zen,
100 agreed, this is a great forum.
Let's keep it going.
Thanks to all the old timer members here too who keep on engaging.
Adan,
I had a hunch that penetrantic doesn't exist in English. It does in German. It is spelled penetrantisch ...... oh no... I just checked. I butchered pedantisch with penetrant. Both legit German words. I swear we use it, when we want to tell someone to be less of a bean counter.
Shame on me, but it sounded so good for what I wanted it to mean.
It should have expressed a bean counter mentality and is clearly the English word pedantic.
Well, I put that in there to find out who actually reads long posts like this ;D
The cool thing I got accustomed to living here in the states for 20 years now, if you use a word, any word for that matter, real or not more than 20 times, it sort of gets assimilated into a table of possible linguistic alternatives, and over a decade becomes a word.
Unthinkable in a way more rigid society like Germany.
We have rules for language that are unshakable. At least we used to when I grew up there.
So, here I am working on it penetrantically getting it assimilated :)))
Rider7
-
I've found this topic interesting, so thanks to the OP for taking an interest.
Whilst reading the positive things that people say about their Zeros, it's worth keeping in mind that those comments have been hard won. Many of the regulars on this forum are a tough crowd. We are a long way from teenage groupies at a rock concert. Many people here have or have retired from a career in engineering or IT. They are used to analysing, getting to the bottom of things and cutting through the BS. They are not going to spend their hard earned money on a bad product.
Take my experience with Zero, for example. I had my first test ride in 2013. I seriously considered getting a Zero then, but I couldn't justify the cost. I joined this forum and have been quite active. I wanted to know everything about Zeros. Some might say I became rather obsessive! I also didn't mind asking difficult questions. I'd write about how the motors overheat and use a test ride to qualify my experience. One topic I started got so heated I asked the forum's admin to delete it.
To cut a long story short, I got the opportunity to buy a Zero last year. It's a 2014 DS, so not exactly the latest and greatest. I bought it and haven't been disappointed. Sure, I'll have a moan if something goes wrong, but overall I've had a very pleasurable commute into London every day for the past year. It has been a joy to ride and very reliable. That's through lots of rain and cold weather.
We are a hard crowd to please so I think you can be assured that there's credit where it's due. I picked at every problem I could find and yet I bought a Zero and I'm happy I did. The community here has been very honest with me and issues have been discussed openly.
No product is perfect and in such a niche market there just isn't the money that goes into the development of cars. Despite this, Zero have a great product that well informed people are willing to buy. That's no mean feat.
It takes a long time for people, especially bikers, to get their heads around new technology. Their initial reaction is to take the Mickey. There are many thousands of commuters out there that would benefit from riding a Zero. They'll wake up to them eventually. Perhaps when the price drops to the point when they cost the same as an equivalent ICE bike and the running costs are the icing on top.
-
It has been my observation, from my own experience and from reading forum members' comments, that Zero has designed an excellent vehicle. I think most, if not all, reliability issues encountered by Zero owners have likely been the result of assembly errors at the factory. The bike's electronics are pretty complicated and it doesn't take much of an error to result in a "glitch" if a male connector wasn't properly plugged into it female counterpart and a pin got bent or not quite connected tightly. Also, the method of waterproofing is somewhat dependent upon the skill of the person applying it and a mistake there could result in problems in the future.
But these sort of assembly errors can pop up in any device, even a well-engineered one. It is just a matter of training the assembly-line workers better and to hire people who will take care to perform the job properly after doing so a few hundred times. Not everyone has the kind of temperament to do assembly-line work though, I know that I don't. ;)
-
The crimping and weatherproofing I'm sure are all human but I saw a factory video showing their driver unit, really nice. Basically there is an order to all the threaded fasteners and it automatically changes the torque value for each "screw". Seems to really speed up the process.
-
I just noticed these comments. I guess I should say something.
One other quick point: The very first thing our marketing director noted was the abject failure of Zero to utilize even the most basic marketing efforts. For example, both this forum and the Facebook page have no actual company presence. I can't emphasize enough how basic a failure that is.
Here's one more quickie: Many of you, as advocates, seem to have done more to advance the consumer understanding of this product. There's one person in particular that our group noted and we are at a loss to determine why, after years of pushing their product, Zero hasn't hired BrianTRice...
I'm really not excited most days to speak up that way, and do wish the company would speak up for itself more broadly. Mainly, I want electric motorcycles to be normal, reliable, and viable for travel, and the Zero platform for better or worse is the most likely to provide that. You Meet The Nicest People On A Honda (http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1959establishingamericanhonda/page08.html), fifty years later.
I do get irritated with unfounded claims or needless/insulting posturing. In case anyone wonders why I argue (aside from this being on the internet).
They probably can't afford him 8)
I'm not really sure what I'd enjoy doing for them other than consulting; my dream job is more like making amazing software tools for engineers and people with ideas in general, although it did come after idolizing Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites work and studying aerospace engineering.
To be clear, my only real privilege is to get to talk to interesting people and learn from them, but honestly that came about because I exercised my curiosity aggressively the moment I moved to the Bay Area. And then I realized we had to write all this stuff down to make the platform workable for more people. (See If Your Product Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist (https://medium.com/corilla-blog/if-your-product-isnt-documented-it-doesn-t-exist-c9d16dc5b620); then read it again).
I will say it's occasionally astonishing to realize people read what I post, specifically. At the tenth anniversary event, someone on the Zero factory floor told me that they heard "Mr. Rice" was here, which just about floored me. Most of what I do is evaluate claims and think about them until I can figure out what's the best lesson out of them.
I did spend three years just riding a 13DS around in Seattle prior to that, and riding/maintaining a Suzuki V-Strom as a primary vehicle. But I want something closer to the Peraves E-Tracer (which isn't importable even at its crazy price).
So, I guess that's my statement about all of this. I'll probably take a break once I have what I wanted out of this platform.
-
Well these are the jobs that are open now.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php)
-
Zero S 2015
*My wife sometimes mocks me on how small the bike look (compared to my previous 20 year Suzuki DL-650 and VX800) but its size makes it ideal for lane splitting and riding on narrow shoulders during traffic jams (as is the common practice in Israel).
*Even after 24K KM I still can't find the perfect riding posture. There is a groove in the seat where I supposed my butt is supposed to go but it's too far for me to sit comfortably. Sometimes I find myself with my groin almost touching the "fuel tank".
*Mirrors are ridiculous.
*I don't interface with Zero, only with the Israeli dealer. He never disappointed me.
*Design wise, I'm disappointed because how bland it looks. People do come over and say it's beautiful, but for the life of me I can't see why.
*I love the bike because of engine. It's fast, powerful, silent and fun. I'm very happy with the bike.
-
Well these are the jobs that are open now.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php)
That is an interesting collection of open positions - especially the VP of Operations. You would think Zero would already have one of those. ???
-
Well these are the jobs that are open now.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php)
That is an interesting collection of open positions - especially the VP of Operations. You would think Zero would already have one of those. ???
i personally like that "licensed motorcyclist" is a requirement for employment. ;D
laramie ;)
-
When I made my original post, I didn't think it would generate much comment. Thank you for all the input, it really helped in writing the review article. I've wanted to get back here to add more comments, but the site is often down.
Some clarifications: Our venture group never had any interest in investing in Zero, although they did seem to think so... We simply used Zero, along with some other domestic and international electrics, as a part of a case study for our internal publication. We offered Zero the opportunity to have input, and, while they missed the boat on that entirely, we included their two emails as examples of their corporate culture and communications "style". In our other industry studies, we've received reams of PR and marketing data, just by asking. PR and marketing opportunities aren't of interest to Zero, based on their response. Let's just say, we're still scratching our heads over that...
Zero does "monitor" this forum, whatever that means. They referred to it in our stilted communications. Why they don't participate, respond, or, I don't know, put together a marketing plan and have their own forum, is open to speculation. One might speculate that they don't need a marketing plan because they don't intend to remain in business. One can only rate their after-purchase customer care as "shoddy". This forum is littered with disgruntled customers, most of whom are, or will have to, resort to legal remedies to obtain warranty satisfaction. This just isn't the posture that a company focused on growth (or even long term existence) would take. If this is how they act while ostensibly trying to sell a product and grow, what can a customer expect if, like Skully, they suddenly turn tail and run?
My advice to all customers is to make direct contact with the manufacturer and state your intention to hold them accountable for their warranty, and document all of your correspondence. Establish your claim for n advance of any future bankruptcy filing. There won't be a lot of warning.
Our firm is still considering it's position in electrics. We don't think it's a big disclosure to say that the opportunities we are considering are all offshore. Typically, we place between $20 and $40mm each cycle, but we anticipate the next two or three funding cycles to be significantly lower. Both the tech-hostile new administration and the huge upside of companies like Cezeta (no, we're not investing in that, it's just an example) lead us to look overseas, but with more caution than ever before.
Doing this study and writing the article for our group has been almost as much fun as riding the bike. We already knew that Zero's cult following was strong, but some of the defensive replies to my criticisms underscored that in a way I would not have been able to paraphrase. I know it's hard when somebody seems to be attacking something you love. Your passion does you credit.
-
I'm a recent addition to this forum and so perhaps I've missed some important history here. @JBC444 What are you even going on about?
-
I'm a recent addition to this forum and so perhaps I've missed some important history here. @JBC444 What are you even going on about?
Who wants to lay bets on JBC444 being a Paid Troll... ;)
-
:) that gave me a big smile and was a better illustration of my point than I could have made. Thank you! Where do I pick up my check??
I'll try to get one of our interns to reply to some of the intelligent points. Happy riding.
-
@Justin Andrews not helping.
I don't have any intention of disrupting the discussion but I can't even follow what that discussion is. The topic says a review of a Zero S 6.5 but now there is some weirdness going on and there isn't a clear idea other than "hand-waving" and for what I can't figure out.
-
I, for one, would love to see this thread put out of my misery. I haven't seen one interesting thing come out of it, but I keep logging on and seeing it's come back from the dead yet again.
-
The word "cult" is being used far too loosely here. I don't know how someone can read this forum and conclude there is a "cult" at work. The folks who regularly post here tend to be a very savvy and critical bunch. I see none of the irrationality or abdication of critical reasoning that one normally associates with cult behavior (and which, just in case anyone needs an example, is so prominently on display in the current political state of this country).
My Zero is incredibly useful to me. It does what I ask of it far better than a car, and ICE bike, or a scooter could. It's ugly and devoid of personality. There's nothing but rationality in my choice to ride it. Nothing could be further from cult behavior.
-
I'll try to get one of our interns to reply to some of the intelligent points.
Yes, preferably one who has never ridden a motorcycle. That would really elevate the entertainment value of this thread.
-
The word "cult" is being used far too loosely here. I don't know how someone can read this forum and conclude there is a "cult" at work. The folks who regularly post here tend to be a very savvy and critical bunch. I see none of the irrationality or abdication of critical reasoning that one normally associates with cult behavior (and which, just in case anyone needs an example, is so prominently on display in the current political state of this country).
My Zero is incredibly useful to me. It does what I ask of it far better than a car, and ICE bike, or a scooter could. It's ugly and devoid of personality. There's nothing but rationality in my choice to ride it. Nothing could be further from cult behavior.
Well said. I should have chosen a different username for this forum...
-
The word "cult" is being used far too loosely here. I don't know how someone can read this forum and conclude there is a "cult" at work. The folks who regularly post here tend to be a very savvy and critical bunch. I see none of the irrationality or abdication of critical reasoning that one normally associates with cult behavior (and which, just in case anyone needs an example, is so prominently on display in the current political state of this country).
My Zero is incredibly useful to me. It does what I ask of it far better than a car, and ICE bike, or a scooter could. It's ugly and devoid of personality. There's nothing but rationality in my choice to ride it. Nothing could be further from cult behavior.
Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I was looking for a "tool" to address a particular situation. That situation was a 34 mile round trip commute on mostly highways. Since I don't live near any other co-workers and my hours fluctuate based on my workload, car-pooling was impractical. I could use my ICE motorcycles to take the HOV lanes bypassing much of the traffic, but that was putting a lot of wear and tear on them and despite the savings in fuel, the maintenance costs more than made up for whatever I saved in gasoline (ICE motorcycles are far more maintenance intensive than modern automobiles).
Electric and hybrid automobiles (which would also allow me to use the HOV lanes) are prohibitively expensive compared to their ICE brethren. Although the Zero is more expensive than a similarly-performing ICE bike, it also cost FAR FAR less than an electric or hybrid automobile. Plus, I find two wheels far more satisfying to ride than four.
I needed a bike that could easily maintain 70 miles an hour (the bare minimum to keep up with traffic on our "55 mph" highway), do the 34 miles round trip commute and still have enough in reserve to let me go out to eat at lunch time.
I did EXHAUSTIVE research and the absolute best "tool" I could find for my situation was the 2016 Zero S currently sitting in my garage plugged in and charging. Almost 90% of the electricity I use year-round are produced by the solar panels on my roof, so I get to have fun on my daily commute AND feel smugly satisfied doing it.
-
I'm about to add a Moto Guzzi to my garage. Happy to admit cult behavior when I'm in fact guilty of it.
-
@Justin Andrews not helping.
I don't have any intention of disrupting the discussion but I can't even follow what that discussion is. The topic says a review of a Zero S 6.5 but now there is some weirdness going on and there isn't a clear idea other than "hand-waving" and for what I can't figure out.
Sorry, he called me a cultist, so at this point he opened himself up to get both barrels. ;)
-
Our venture group never had any interest in investing in Zero, although they did seem to think so... We simply used Zero, along with some other domestic and international electrics, as a part of a case study for our internal publication.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm not anywhere close to being a venture capitalist, but I really, really don't understand why an inexperienced motorcycle rider would BUY a Zero S in the name of research. Everything he concluded could have been done by reading some professional reviews, browsing the forums and sending an Email to Zero.
-
Classic scam technique. "I have a great deal of money that I'm looking to give to a worthy cause"
Now I'm going to question you and insult you and you'll grovel trying to get my money. In the end they get caught and act like the people missed out on a lot of money by not giving the scammer what they wanted. In the old days we'd tar and feather them, now they stay on the internet and out of reach.
For me the thread was good for expressing what people like and don't like about their bikes so not a complete loss.
-
Our venture group never had any interest in investing in Zero, although they did seem to think so... We simply used Zero, along with some other domestic and international electrics, as a part of a case study for our internal publication.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm not anywhere close to being a venture capitalist, but I really, really don't understand why an inexperienced motorcycle rider would BUY a Zero S in the name of research. Everything he concluded could have been done by reading some professional reviews, browsing the forums and sending an Email to Zero.
My guess is that this thread makes the purchase of a Zero a "business expense" deduction on his IRS return. ::)
-
This forum isn't 'owned' by Zero - of course it is 'monitored' by Zero. The staff clearly identify themselves. "Hi Guys!"
I'm sure the employees have similar restrictions on posting that I've experienced on my work related forums.
Like this thread - It is a "review"... Zero employees are most likely specifically not allowed to rebuke reviews.
Also no disclosing "trade secrets". So nothing not already published by the company. (which is sparse)
And no favoritism.
So it isn't that the goals and efforts are "unknown" it is far more likely they are "not for public disclosure", it might surprise how many restrictions can arrive with instrumental funding or be imposed by current or prospective suppliers, dealership agreements or statutes or be construed out of the same. In an industry under the microscope.
Forums and Email and even print are complicated communication formats. I suppose "444" should have bought earlier and gone to the owner "10th anniversary reunion" at the factory to get concerns more interactively addressed.
Like many I've made a pilgrimage to the factory and comparing that to the email or telephone communications I found in person is the best opportunity to have someone go "off script" or notice in body language when they are pressed into a non-disclosure area or something they haven't even gotten answers to themselves. Warm? Yes Friendly? Yes Would I go again? Yes.
If Zero had "no plan" we'd see a myriad range of feedback by emails and on forums by employees. We don't - we have a very consistent response. Zero employees have their roles (and their scripts) and when we ask a question outside those parameters we get crickets until a non-employee gets us an answer.
I'll say what I posted before - Customer service is "weird" as it doesn't quite fit what I've experienced before. But it is not unpalatable.
-
Wow, this turns out to be a pretty weird thread.
I've got the feeling that some peoples had their feelings hurt about Zero, maybe also because the intentions of the OP remain unclear (despite explaining who he is)
I would like to make some points regarding the conversation with the OP/his view on Zero's reason for existence.
I (Joe average with a minor +) paid the full european price for my DS '15. It's mine. (Zero's are more expensive over here)
No government incentives or subsidy here. The bike is my only and main transportation for commuting and errands 7 days a week.
Last year took less than € 100,- to keep the bike on the road for 12.000 km's. That's including assurance (cheapest possible) and powerbill for charging. (do have solarroof)
So after purchase, it's incredible cheap to run. Cheaper by far than taking public transportation or having a 30 mile per our moped, used in large part's of the world.
I am also wandering how many investment groups would cue up in line for EV industry if we (the world) would stop subsidies and government incentives/tax avoidance for big oil, and start paying the real price for a gallon/liter. Last year, my government gave the oil industrie close to 7 billion euro's. How much did GM receive just before it went bankrupt? How much will Trump donate this year to his old school friends..?
Lastly, Volkwagen sold close to 10 million cars in 2016. The quality of their products is poor (not even talking about dieselgate)
The aftersale and warrantyservice is VERY poor known in the EU, especially in the Netherlands. Still a lot of people buy these cars.
Is Zero flawless? No. Is there a market for the way Zero operates? I think yes. Do they have to improve things? Yes.
-
I keep comparing the problems heard on some other more-established-brand motorcycle forums (such as BMW) with the ones that I read on this forum. They tend to be similar in concept. Which just goes to show you that every mechanical device can have issues and certainly, Zero as a very young company that is trying to rapidly develop a new transportation technology, is not immune to various assembly and component QC problems. While there is certainly nothing wrong with their basic design, there is no question that Zero, its dealers and its customers, could all benefit from better and more rapid communication and response from the factory when something goes haywire.
-
My Zero is incredibly useful to me. It does what I ask of it far better than a car, and ICE bike, or a scooter could.
It's ugly and devoid of personality.
Adan, stop insulting my beautiful Electric Lady... :)) ;D ;D :D :D
I don't know what model you bought, but heck.... my 2017 DSR is beautiful all around.
I get compliments from women and hard drinking men even.....
No seriously, I think zero knocked this out of the ball park. It is a unique, sleep and elegant line that flows and soothes my esthetic sense every time I walk up to it.
Well, maybe it's just me.
But I do hear you, you love it for the function and you wanted to make the point towards the cult thing....
Rider7
-
JCB444 has his facts wrong. But rather than statistically debunking his claims we are lured into emotional replies and discussions.
I think that he's had a bad experience with his Zero and he has found this forum as a way to release some of his anger.
In one post he is even claiming that Zero is about to go chapter 11, very unprofessional!
I own a Brammo Empulse and would not hesitate to buy a Zero as a replacement in a few years. So even for the critical buyer (which I think I am) the Zero is a good product.
As long as they keep improving the bikes yoy as they have been doing, there is only growth for Zero.