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Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: ultrarnr on December 10, 2016, 04:56:32 AM

Title: Any news?
Post by: ultrarnr on December 10, 2016, 04:56:32 AM
Has anyone heard any more about the H-D Livewire? My Zero dealer said it has been approved for production but didn't know of any other details.  I had seen posts that said H-D was hiring people with EV backgrounds which would support H-D deciding to go ahead with production.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on October 30, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
I have to think it will not be produced until solid state battery's come out which is still a few years out.
These battery's will significantly increase range, lower charge time, & likely cost less then present battery's.

With this new technology so close to being available, I dought you will see many if any mainstream manufacturers release new EV products.
That said, BMW is in the process of releasing an electric scooter.   

Good things come to those that wait.......
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on October 30, 2017, 09:22:20 PM
Has anyone heard any more about the H-D Livewire? My Zero dealer said it has been approved for production but didn't know of any other details.  I had seen posts that said H-D was hiring people with EV backgrounds which would support H-D deciding to go ahead with production.
Its a non-starter for them.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: JaimeC on October 30, 2017, 09:37:19 PM
I have to think it will not be produced until solid state battery's come out which is still a few years out.
These battery's will significantly increase range, lower charge time, & likely cost less then present battery's.

With this new technology so close to being available, I dought you will see many if any mainstream manufacturers release new EV products.
That said, BMW is in the process of releasing an electric scooter.   

Good things come to those that wait.......

What do you mean "in the process?"  It has been available in Europe for a couple of years now and just went on sale in California (and soon to the rest of the country).
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on October 30, 2017, 11:06:02 PM
The fact that it's only 1/50 released in the US defines it as a process in my opinion.

This is a Harley Livewire section & recommend discussion be focused on that product. 

 
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: benswing on October 31, 2017, 12:14:03 AM
The last things I heard about Harley was that they plan to produce an electric motorcycle by 2020.  The LiveWire project ended with their European tour last year bringing the 40 demo bikes for test rides. 

They also mentioned something about waiting for more energy-dense batteries, and possibly solid state batteries.  Basically, there is no new word for the past year or two.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: togo on October 31, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
The fact that it's only 1/50 released in the US defines it as a process in my opinion....

California is way more than 1/50 of the USA on any scale that matters.

Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on October 31, 2017, 06:39:41 AM
I moved the statement I made re. BMW here......

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7008.0
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: calamarichris on January 20, 2018, 11:47:46 AM
Judging from the search results on Harley's site (https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/global-search.html?searchKey=livewire), and the former Livewire page on Harley's site (https://www.harley-davidson.com/livewire), I'd say it looks dead in the water for now.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on January 20, 2018, 08:43:01 PM
Judging from the search results on Harley's site (https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/global-search.html?searchKey=livewire), and the former Livewire page on Harley's site (https://www.harley-davidson.com/livewire), I'd say it looks dead in the water for now.

Sounds about right to me.  ;) I hear that H-D sales are down and finances are tight, so it is unlikely they are going to attempt to go electric for some time, unless forced to do so by government regulators.  And I don't see that happening any time soon for electric motorcycles.  Governments are addressing cars, trucks, buses, trains, planes and just about everything else but motorcycles (which everyone seems to agree are too noisy and pollute too much   :o ), when it comes to "pollution-free" travel.  But electric motorcycles just don't appear to be on their radar for now.   ???
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: calamarichris on January 31, 2018, 04:14:09 AM
Harley now saying they'll be launching their electric bike within 18 months: (https://electrek.co/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle/)
Probably going to have to lighten it a bit and use less metal if they want to get more than 60 miles out of a charge.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on January 31, 2018, 05:25:23 AM
Harley now saying they'll be launching their electric bike within 18 months: (https://electrek.co/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle/)
Probably going to have to lighten it a bit and use less metal if they want to get more than 60 miles out of a charge.

I bet it won't be cheap, either.  Plus the "Faithful" will hate it and their dealers will dump on the bike and steer new customers to their IC models.  ::)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Shocker on February 01, 2018, 01:18:25 AM
Electrek had this article:
https://electrek.co/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle/

Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Doug S on February 01, 2018, 02:25:18 AM
It may just be me, but I think I detect the odor of desperation here. Their business has been plummeting, with no sign of it recovering anytime soon, no matter how many "new" ICE models HD foists upon us over the next two years or so.

Harley has always sold image over substance, charging far more for their bikes than equivalently-performing (or even lesser-performing) alternatives, just because they've been able to do it. But with the next generation of potential riders being the high-tech generation, there's less and less interest for the image and cachet HD has been selling all these years. People want more for less money, and HD just isn't able to offer it.

I think HD is trying to re-brand themselves before it's too late. I have to admit the LiveWire is by far the best-looking of any of the electric bike design exercises so far to my eye. But if the performance and price aren't where they need to be, I'll stick with Zero. Zeros aren't at all attractive to my eye, but they're way ahead of anybody else in bang for the buck so far.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on February 01, 2018, 03:42:49 AM
It may just be me, but I think I detect the odor of desperation here.

Nope. They have their heads rammed so firmly up their own asses that they have no idea the trouble they're in.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 01, 2018, 11:29:58 PM
Here is the latest.  Note the adjectives "premium" and "no compromises".  Considering it is H-D, that sure sounds expensive to me, which may get them some good press (the Livewire story made the CBS national news last night), but probably not all that many sales.

http://www.motorcycle.com/features/yes-the-harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-is-on-the-way.html
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Alan Stewart on February 02, 2018, 03:57:28 AM
Yeah, I was thinking more like Energica prices rather than Zero prices, but I hope they do better than Energica in the battery capacity department. Though QC does help make up for less battery.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: nevetsyad on February 02, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 02, 2018, 09:32:01 PM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

I am not putting any money on that happening.  While you may be right about the price, my bet is that their EV will look nice, make a unique noise, be relatively quick, have a short range, get the press fawning and the "Faithful" screaming.  ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on February 02, 2018, 09:44:49 PM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Doug S on February 02, 2018, 10:09:02 PM
Nope. They have their heads rammed so firmly up their own asses that they have no idea the trouble they're in.

You could certainly argue that position, there's a lot of reason to believe it's true.

But their shareholders don't. They see their stock losing value and they're not going to listen to management's crapola any longer. They just want the stock to go back up and they don't care what it takes. Why do you think HD has been introducing so many new models lately?
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on February 02, 2018, 11:00:25 PM
Nope. They have their heads rammed so firmly up their own asses that they have no idea the trouble they're in.

You could certainly argue that position, there's a lot of reason to believe it's true.

But their shareholders don't. They see their stock losing value and they're not going to listen to management's crapola any longer. They just want the stock to go back up and they don't care what it takes. Why do you think HD has been introducing so many new models lately?

Their new models highlights the problem.

They have spend tons on R&D to create that new engine design. Tons on engineering all new bikes...  but at the end of the day, they look identical to all their old bikes, and other than people that are already Harley fans, they are the same thing.
So nothings changed.  Their bikes still weigh a ton and handle like crap compared to the alternatives. They still cost too much, but most importantly, they still have an image problem. Very few people care to be associated with Harley anymore.  However if you attempt to make a product that doesnt match this image, the diehards work at the dealership... they wont change. and they wont sell it.
I WANT to be wrong. I want this to come out, be badass and affordable. I want to be able to go down to the local dealership thats only 5mins away and testride one... and buy it right there.
But Harley dealerships are untrustworthy with "non-harley" bikes. their dealerships suck. their people suck. their core business sucks. their bikes suck. overall they have no redeeming value to me and they hold back the entire american bike market. The USA needs to have a major bike brand that is not "cruisers" and that wont happen until Harley dies.
So unless the LiveWire is an amazing bike at an affordable price, I hope they choke on it.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 03, 2018, 05:04:34 AM
Nope. They have their heads rammed so firmly up their own asses that they have no idea the trouble they're in.

You could certainly argue that position, there's a lot of reason to believe it's true.

But their shareholders don't. They see their stock losing value and they're not going to listen to management's crapola any longer. They just want the stock to go back up and they don't care what it takes. Why do you think HD has been introducing so many new models lately?

I bet their shareholders aren't too happy today.  ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on February 03, 2018, 09:59:39 AM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.

You can't think like that (present day battery energy density) as it's extremely propable that this & any EV of the future (1-2+ years out) will have next generation battery that will yeild  a 2-3 time increase of power storage density.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 03, 2018, 09:02:36 PM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.

You can't think like that (present day battery energy density) as it's extremely propable that this & any EV of the future (1-2+ years out) will have next generation battery that will yeild  a 2-3 time increase of power storage density.

I have been hearing about those new batteries for the past 10 years and I am still waiting for them to arrive.  ::) My guess is that you will see them first arrive in mobile consumer devices long before they show up in vehicles.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on February 04, 2018, 09:13:51 AM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.

You can't think like that (present day battery energy density) as it's extremely propable that this & any EV of the future (1-2+ years out) will have next generation battery that will yeild  a 2-3 time increase of power storage density.

I have been hearing about those new batteries for the past 10 years and I am still waiting for them to arrive.  ::) My guess is that you will see them first arrive in mobile consumer devices long before they show up in vehicles.

Go buy a drone......

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/a-new-lithium-metal-battery-takes-flight-in-drones


Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on February 04, 2018, 09:38:56 AM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.

You can't think like that (present day battery energy density) as it's extremely propable that this & any EV of the future (1-2+ years out) will have next generation battery that will yeild  a 2-3 time increase of power storage density.

Actually I can.
You see, YEARS before they will arrive in your mass produced warranted and insured vehicle, the component level product line needs to be up and running. I will know about that, simply because component level electronics is what I do...
When any production line of "solid state" lithium batteries start, I will be in on it asap. Both as an interested industry professional, and for personal investment. I am not knocking the potential, but I know its not here yet.

The closest we have right now is SolidEnergy Systems and I have some issues with them scaling up what they have to large production. Once they solve these issues... sure. But right now they're practically hand making batteries for niche markets, just like some other labs are. (although they are doing an excellent job selling themselves after this last VC round)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 25, 2018, 08:20:01 PM
After trademarking the Revolution's name, H-D has now patented the new bike's noise:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krPQ1PMM00Y   ;D
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Fran K on February 26, 2018, 12:05:47 AM
If you really are curious about the sound try minute 9:20 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyJr8BoklC0

Not sure how to link it without advertising.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on February 26, 2018, 09:16:34 AM
The sound you hear is the bevel gears in the right angle Drive... Because of the horrible design layout they have that. It sounds like a really cheap angle grinder... I'm sure people will associate the gear whine with the electric motor but really it's just because they have a longitudinal motor layout... Shity design
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 26, 2018, 09:27:41 PM
I watched that video above and was interested to hear that when in "power mode" the projected range is only 29 miles. Perfect for bar to bar riding.   ::)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on February 28, 2018, 09:28:28 AM
I believe Harley has been on record saying their electric offering will be in the 20-25K range. I'm hoping it will have a huge 20+ kWh battery, and CCS charging. A true touring e-bike finally!

if its laid out like the livewire, the space constrant alone would limit it to 10kwh or less... 10 being generous.

You can't think like that (present day battery energy density) as it's extremely propable that this & any EV of the future (1-2+ years out) will have next generation battery that will yeild  a 2-3 time increase of power storage density.

Actually I can.
You see, YEARS before they will arrive in your mass produced warranted and insured vehicle, the component level product line needs to be up and running. I will know about that, simply because component level electronics is what I do...
When any production line of "solid state" lithium batteries start, I will be in on it asap. Both as an interested industry professional, and for personal investment. I am not knocking the potential, but I know its not here yet.

The closest we have right now is SolidEnergy Systems and I have some issues with them scaling up what they have to large production. Once they solve these issues... sure. But right now they're practically hand making batteries for niche markets, just like some other labs are. (although they are doing an excellent job selling themselves after this last VC round)


Ummmm, perhaps I need to calibrate my calendar.

I Guess I’ve been reading too much into story’s like Dyson bringing a totally different car to market in a mater of a few years.

This http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/dyson-3-electric-cars-coming-first-2021 latest story has solid state battery’s not available until 2025  :P

I SOOOO want an electric motorcycle with a solid state battery & all the advantages that will come with it.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: togo on March 03, 2018, 04:48:44 AM
I watched that video above and was interested to hear that when in "power mode" the projected range is only 29 miles. Perfect for bar to bar riding.   ::)

They invested in Alta.  So, maybe the same small battery pack, just adapted to cruiser frame?
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on March 09, 2018, 04:51:17 AM
Speaking of H-D's future: it is not looking too good right now, no thanks to the President declaring a tariff war on the rest of the world and in particular the EU.  I believe that the EU is about the only location where H-D sales had been growing and that market would likely be a good one for any electric motorcycle that they might want to sell, as I believe that the Europeans have a greater appreciation of electric vehicles than we do in the U.S.  The EU says it will retaliate by imposing a 25% tariff on Harley-Davidson motorcycles (among other things).  That is not going to do anything good for H-D's sales and bottom line.  If this sticks, it is really going to be tough for them to make any money selling their new electric motorcycle and might even cause them to rethink their EV plans.

At least Zero seems to be off the EU's tariff radar, so hopefully their sales won't be affected.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: togo on April 04, 2018, 04:25:41 AM
Speaking of H-D's future: it is not looking too good right now, no thanks to the President declaring a tariff war on the rest of the world and in particular the EU.  I believe that the EU is about the only location where H-D sales had been growing and that market would likely be a good one for any electric motorcycle that they might want to sell, as I believe that the Europeans have a greater appreciation of electric vehicles than we do in the U.S.  The EU says it will retaliate by imposing a 25% tariff on Harley-Davidson motorcycles (among other things).  That is not going to do anything good for H-D's sales and bottom line.  If this sticks, it is really going to be tough for them to make any money selling their new electric motorcycle and might even cause them to rethink their EV plans.

At least Zero seems to be off the EU's tariff radar, so hopefully their sales won't be affected.

I think the EU is friendlier to pure-play electrics, like Zero and Tesla.

Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: igorbaldo on April 04, 2018, 09:04:23 PM
Speaking of H-D's future: it is not looking too good right now, no thanks to the President declaring a tariff war on the rest of the world and in particular the EU.  I believe that the EU is about the only location where H-D sales had been growing and that market would likely be a good one for any electric motorcycle that they might want to sell, as I believe that the Europeans have a greater appreciation of electric vehicles than we do in the U.S.  The EU says it will retaliate by imposing a 25% tariff on Harley-Davidson motorcycles (among other things).  That is not going to do anything good for H-D's sales and bottom line.  If this sticks, it is really going to be tough for them to make any money selling their new electric motorcycle and might even cause them to rethink their EV plans.

At least Zero seems to be off the EU's tariff radar, so hopefully their sales won't be affected.

Not only the EU - H-D sales in Brazil have grown so much in the last 10 years or so that they built a factory here. And it's still growing but, when it comes to electric motorcycles, I can't tell the same... The few Zero's we have are in the hands of some enthusiasts; nobody else seem to have interest in this type of vehicle. Hopefully an H-D electric motorcycle may bring some attention in the near future...
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on April 30, 2018, 01:24:22 AM
Still on track for late Summer 2019 release....
https://electrek.co/2018/04/27/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycles-younger/
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Burton on April 30, 2018, 01:55:41 AM
Since they are targeting younger, read broke ... in debt up to their ears, riders ... I wonder what the bike will cost?

Honda wanted to sell its Element (I own one) to surfers ... that was their target market. Turns out they priced it way too high for them and no one bought it so they discontinued it in 2011 due to poor sales.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on April 30, 2018, 03:57:17 AM
I was told today by a fellow that I know who tracks the industry (he used to be a magazine motorcycle reviewer) that H-D's EV will have a claimed 200-mile city cycle range and about half that on the highway.  Sounds like what I get from my Zero.  But I bet that the H-D EV will cost a lot more, though.  ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: KrazyEd on April 30, 2018, 11:55:29 AM
With their investment in Alta, they have probably just leapfrogged the time to market.
Given this, Even if it happens to LOOK similar to the one from 2014, it will ( probably )
be entirely different underneath. On the Plus side, Harley has not had a lot of success
with sport type entries so they will probably offer a less sport oriented riding position.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on April 30, 2018, 07:46:10 PM
And can you imagine how their retail dealers will be promoting anything electric powered?  I bet the EV gets displayed in a showroom dumpster, or hidden away in a closet like they did with the Buells.  :(  And training a H-D mechanic to work on an electric vehicle should be interesting.  ;) I wonder how many will survive the training?   ::)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on April 30, 2018, 08:05:26 PM
And can you imagine how their retail dealers will be promoting anything electric powered?  I bet the EV gets displayed in a showroom dumpster, or hidden away in a closet like they did with the Buells.  :(  And training a H-D mechanic to work on an electric vehicle should be interesting.  ;) I wonder how many will survive the training?   ::)

exactly.
there will be one guy... Yeah, talk to Ted, hes the electric guy.  Then after you buy your bike, Ted quits from being overworked as the only electric guy.
3 years later they stop carrying the bikes "because they dont sell"... meanwhile they make no effort to sell them.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: KrazyEd on April 30, 2018, 10:34:17 PM
So, the HD Electric will be just like most of the auto showrooms.
" Yeah, I think that there is one SOMEWHERE around here. "
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: nevetsyad on July 26, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Quote
exactly.
there will be one guy... Yeah, talk to Ted, hes the electric guy.  Then after you buy your bike, Ted quits from being overworked as the only electric guy.
3 years later they stop carrying the bikes "because they dont sell"... meanwhile they make no effort to sell them.

This is exactly what happened at the dealership where I bought my first Zero.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on July 27, 2018, 03:20:02 AM
News like this?  https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-jobs/
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on July 28, 2018, 02:14:59 AM
They've branded it "Revelation"?? I grew up in Bible-thumping culture and cannot believe this made it through marketing. Yes, let's associate this motorcycle with hallucinations, moral turmoil, and (one version of) the end of the world myth.

Labor relations are another kettle of fish...
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ElectricZen on July 30, 2018, 04:13:32 AM
They've branded it "Revelation"?? I grew up in Bible-thumping culture and cannot believe this made it through marketing. Yes, let's associate this motorcycle with hallucinations, moral turmoil, and (one version of) the end of the world myth.

Labor relations are another kettle of fish...
Oh look! HD's marketing team might actually be worse than Zero's[emoji23]. I agee, that's an awful name.  If true, I will endlessly troll the HD riders I know and dealerships I visit...


Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ESokoloff on July 30, 2018, 09:18:00 PM
Has anyone heard any more about the H-D Livewire? My Zero dealer said it has been approved for production but didn't know of any other details.  I had seen posts that said H-D was hiring people with EV backgrounds which would support H-D deciding to go ahead with production.

This just in.....
https://www.hotbikeweb.com/harley-davidson-announces-livewire-electric-motorcycle-2019
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on July 31, 2018, 04:06:11 AM
Also this:  http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/2019-harley-davidson-livewire-launching-august.html

and this:  http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-announces-growth-plan-2022.html
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on July 31, 2018, 07:37:40 PM
Heres the largest version of the 2019 Harley Livewire pic that I can find online.
 (http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/073018-2019-harley-davidson-LiveWire-electric-v2-production.jpg)
http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/073018-2019-harley-davidson-LiveWire-electric-v2-production.jpg



(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/073018-2019-harley-davidson-LiveWire-electric-v2-production.jpg)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on July 31, 2018, 07:50:37 PM
Here is the other angle, in the largest one I could find (https://cdn01.enpelotas.com/cms/blog/images/thumbs/lg_f5b5f98a69288c.jpg)
https://cdn01.enpelotas.com/cms/blog/images/thumbs/lg_f5b5f98a69288c.jpg

(https://cdn01.enpelotas.com/cms/blog/images/thumbs/lg_f5b5f98a69288c.jpg)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on July 31, 2018, 08:05:48 PM
I really don't know if the Live Wire is going to sell all that well at what H-D is likely going to price it at. I get the feeling that its main purpose is to generate free advertising for H-D in the general public news media.  Last night it was featured in a report on one of the TV news programs that I was watching - right before I dozed off.  ::)  I bet the Revolution/Resolution (or whatever it is going to be called) is not going to be one of our President's favorite motorcycles, though - unless they put its power train into a golf cart.   ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: MrDude_1 on July 31, 2018, 08:39:52 PM
I really don't know if the Live Wire is going to sell all that well at what H-D is likely going to price it at.

I see modern USD forks, brembo radial brakes, performance tires, remote reservoir shock, all big upgrades compared to the normal harley parts... so yeah, it probably costs a good bit.

If you look at the driveline, I also see the bevel gear 90* seems to feed into a gear or belt drive that then turns the larger (and better for belt life) final drive belt.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on August 01, 2018, 03:42:07 AM
Doing some research, I found out where H-D got its inspiration for their new Pan American 1250 cc IC model's front end design.  From their early attempts at designing a robot.   :o  http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/bold-new-harley-davidsons-2020.html
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on August 02, 2018, 03:50:01 AM
And ever more new news. It looks like H-D is planning auto-braking for those bar-hopping escapades.  ;)
http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-developing-emergency-autonomous-braking-system.html
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Badness on August 18, 2018, 09:14:27 AM
It looks awesome !
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: JaimeC on November 02, 2018, 07:42:44 PM
Official unveiling next week at EICMA:  http://tinyurl.com/y8nf79n6
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on November 02, 2018, 07:49:05 PM
Official unveiling next week at EICMA:  http://tinyurl.com/y8nf79n6

But will they also be unveiling the price at the same time?   ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: JaimeC on November 02, 2018, 08:55:02 PM
I'm interested in its specifications.  A cruiser seating position is as unaerodynamic as a dual-sport/adventure bike so if they want to give it competitive range they'd have to give it a pretty big battery... which also adds weight...

Also curious what kind of "fast charging" it'll support.  We'll find out next week.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ultrarnr on November 04, 2018, 08:08:07 AM
The Livewire will have CCS charging. I saw it in one of the photos that was posted.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on November 06, 2018, 09:26:36 PM
Here are the latest photos from the EICMA show. Still nothing about specifications or pricing, though:
https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-production/
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: JaimeC on November 06, 2018, 09:35:37 PM
From Harley's own web page:  http://tinyurl.com/ybw7fca4

My guess?  That's a $20K motorcycle with all the features they're touting unless Harley is willing to cut their own throats in getting this bike out to riders.  Guess we'll find out in January.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on November 07, 2018, 04:30:53 AM
From Harley's own web page:  http://tinyurl.com/ybw7fca4

My guess?  That's a $20K motorcycle with all the features they're touting unless Harley is willing to cut their own throats in getting this bike out to riders.  Guess we'll find out in January.

My guess is that it will come in over $30K. Kind of like an electric version of their CVO model line.   :o
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on November 07, 2018, 08:37:19 PM
To pontificate further:  As a H-D "premium" vehicle, I expect it will be priced right up there with their CVO motorcycles.  Last night, in the December issue of Rider Magazine, I read about their latest 117CI CVO full-dress bagger, which is priced at a staggering $43,900!  :o  So when it comes to pricing the LiveWire - the sky may be the limit.   :'(  And that just might limit its sales numbers a bit, thereby fulfilling H-D's dealers' and enthusiasts' expectation that their customers really don't want to ride an electric motorcycle.  ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on November 07, 2018, 09:24:27 PM
To pontificate further:  As a H-D "premium" vehicle, I expect it will be priced right up there with their CVO motorcycles.  Last night, in the December issue of Rider Magazine, I read about their latest 117CI CVO full-dress bagger, which is priced at a staggering $43,900!  :o  So when it comes to pricing the LiveWire - the sky may be the limit.   :'(  And that just might limit its sales numbers a bit, thereby fulfilling H-D's dealers' and enthusiasts' expectation that their customers really don't want to ride an electric motorcycle.  ;)
Cheap compared to this Harley, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Starship) now on sale for only a little more than ten million bucks.

Do we have any takers here?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on November 08, 2018, 09:11:38 PM
Here is more news regarding the LiveWire:  https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-releases-further-details-on-2019-livewire-at-eicma-2018/

There is a 40-second video providing the sound of the new LiveWire in this article.  Sounds just like the sound an Energica makes to me.  The article also has lots of adjectives describing the Wire, but few concrete facts or specifications. 

One thing that caught my attention is that all H-D dealers will have a public Level 3 DC fast charging station at each shop.  Good luck getting their dealers out in the boondocks to pay for those :rolleyes: :   

The article mentions that the LiveWire will have four factory-installed "selectable riding modes" and an additional three which can be customized by the rider. I wonder how many riding modes the LiveWire owner really needs?   ::)

I got a kick out of this statement:  "The LiveWire motorcycle features a RESS (Rechargeable Energy Storage System, or the main battery)".  We no longer have batteries, but an RESS, which no doubt has already been trademarked by the Motor Company.   ;)

Something else that caught my attention is that they are using a separate 12V lithium battery to operate the vehicle's auxiliary systems, instead of a DC-DC voltage converter.

However, H-D will be giving their owners a lot of recharging options: "Charging can be completed using the on-board Level 1 charger that plugs into a standard household outlet with a power cord that stores below the motorcycle seat. LiveWire can also be charged with a Level 2 or Level 3, DC Fast Charge (DCFC), through a SAE J1772 connector, (USA), or CCS2 – IEC type 2 charging connector in international markets."  (Kind of reminds me of what you get when you own an Energica.  ;) ) 
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: centra12 on January 09, 2019, 01:13:33 AM


Something else that caught my attention is that they are using a separate 12V lithium battery to operate the vehicle's auxiliary systems, instead of a DC-DC voltage converter.

 

The 12 volt battery is therefore needed to meet new safety requirements. Normally, they must not   let high voltage or down regulated HV voltage (resistors) through the ignition!
orange cables are indication for that this purpose.
The BMW C Evolution has since the beginning of a 12 volt battery.
Of course, the DC / DC converter is still available.



Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Crilly on January 09, 2019, 04:04:58 AM
I would think the 12 volt batteries also act as a suppressors for dc/dc inverters.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on January 09, 2019, 06:39:11 AM
I would think the 12 volt batteries also act as a suppressors for dc/dc inverters.
I assume you mean converter (DC output). Inverter usually means AC output. But why do they even need to suppress noise (if that's what you mean)?  If there were radios on these bike perhaps then such noise would be an issue, but even that depends on many things, such as the frequency and level of the noise generated. The stuff the DC to DC converters run on our bikes such as the lights, horn, etc., don't care about the noise.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: caza on January 09, 2019, 06:49:42 AM
The nice thing is that with a 12v battery, if your main battery or if the controller fails for whatever reason, you still have lights. A good safety feature for sure, expecially since we've heard of Zeros cutting out on the freeway, including lights.

Downside, the 12v battery can die independent of the main battery. You can have 50 miles of range in the main battery but not be able to start the bike because some aspect of phantom drain (maybe the 4G chip) has killed your 12v battery.

This happened in my Volt. 12v accec. battery died even though I had a full main battery. Had to get a jump start to get the computer up and running so I could start the car.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on January 09, 2019, 07:16:49 AM
The nice thing is that with a 12v battery, if your main battery or if the controller fails for whatever reason, you still have lights. A good safety feature for sure, expecially since we've heard of Zeros cutting out on the freeway, including lights.

Downside, the 12v battery can die independent of the main battery. You can have 50 miles of range in the main battery but not be able to start the bike because some aspect of phantom drain (maybe the 4G chip) has killed your 12v battery.

This happened in my Volt. 12v accec. battery died even though I had a full main battery. Had to get a jump start to get the computer up and running so I could start the car.
Do the Zeros die if they lose the 13.8 VDC?   

BTW, do you know how the Teslas do it?  I own a new Model 3, but I never looked into it.

-Don- Auburn, CA
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: caza on January 09, 2019, 08:48:28 AM
I don't know if zeros die if the DC-DC fails but I do know that if the main contactor closes you lose your lights/ accessory power.

I know at least the 2016 model S's had lead acid 12v batteries, owners were complaining about poor performance.

I've killed the 12v battery of my volt just sitting in the car listening to music for a bit. Super frusterating. Onboard computer should never let the 12v battery get too low when you still have power in the main pack, but it does.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on January 09, 2019, 09:10:56 AM
I don't know if zeros die if the DC-DC fails but I do know that if the main contactor closes you lose your lights/ accessory power.

I know at least the 2016 model S's had lead acid 12v batteries, owners were complaining about poor performance.

I've killed the 12v battery of my volt just sitting in the car listening to music for a bit. Super frusterating. Onboard computer should never let the 12v battery get too low when you still have power in the main pack, but it does.
You mean if the main contactor opens. Of course that will kill everything.

I don't know if this applies to my 12V of my Tesla, but I have heard if the "batteries" get down to 20% of normal range, everything not needed shuts off to help keep the motor running.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: centra12 on January 09, 2019, 03:32:22 PM
Hello

I am also curious which standards the motorcycles in Europe meet?

Since 2016, ECE-R-136 is required in Europe and it is very difficult. Could be a reason why the Harley is so expensive.

For info.
Already in 2012 the ECE-R100 was standard in Europe, but it did not have to fulfill Zero because of "small series manufacturers" !!!!! What has happened is we all know !! If Zero had to fulfill the R100 at that time, not a one Zero would have been burn in Europe.

Now the question arises is the Zero F complete new development and is Zero a small manufacturer? !!
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on January 09, 2019, 08:29:41 PM
H-D also shows off an electric scooter and a bicycle (a little late on this one).  I wonder if the scooter will be named the Topper? The headlight on the scooter looks like it is missing something. :confused:
https://electricmotorcycles.news/harley-davidson-reveals-two-groundbreaking-lightweight-electric-concepts-at-ces-2019/
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on January 13, 2019, 08:33:33 PM
Here is Revzilla's take on the LiveWire:  https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/first-look-2020-harley-davidson-livewire
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Moto7575 on January 14, 2019, 11:47:45 PM
Thanks. Crazy price, but good for competition.

Here is Revzilla's take on the LiveWire:  https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/first-look-2020-harley-davidson-livewire
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on January 15, 2019, 09:10:58 PM
Apparently the new LiveWire is not doing anything to improve investor recommendations for buying H-D's stock. Another bad mark for the Wire:  https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/01/14/no-juice-for-harley-davidsons-turnaround-livewire.aspx
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on February 03, 2019, 08:10:42 AM
Videos of the other two H-D electric concepts:  https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/video-first-test-rides-of-harleys-small-electric-bikes
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on April 10, 2019, 08:08:10 PM
You don't often see a funny cartoon about electric motorcycles.  But here is one.   ;D
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: NEW2elec on April 10, 2019, 08:49:13 PM
Richard230 never disrespect a team your on.     
I'd like to think she then said "and take this dress off".    ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on April 11, 2019, 03:35:25 AM
Richard230 never disrespect a team your on.     
I'd like to think she then said "and take this dress off".    ;)

The cartoon has to do with big-twin ICE vibrations and the lack thereof when riding an electric motorcycle.   ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Fran K on April 16, 2019, 07:18:28 PM
This might count as news.  A son of one of my long time friends recently got a 32 hour a week job at a Harley dealership.  It is a big one in my estimation.  I complained that that dealership was not doing the electric bike.  He stated the number of electric bikes to be produced is to be quite small and this played into their decision on not to get involved.  Hear say information so take it for what it cost.

He had a job at a large Honda dealership years ago, I tried to ask for a comparison to the Harley one.  Not sure I got much useful information, the Harley computer system seems kind of odd but no one comes close to the accessory choices and availability of Harley according to him.  Not sure he is familiar with the KTM hard parts system.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: heroto on May 30, 2019, 07:22:15 AM
The livewire roll out will be in stages, affluent urban first. I don't know if everyone will get them, but would be cool to have level 3 chargers at every HD dealership, which is almost everywhere.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: ultrarnr on May 30, 2019, 02:41:28 PM
But most H-D dealers aren't going to be selling the Livewire. In North Carolina only 5 of 25 H-D dealers are selling the Livewire. Not sure if that ratio applies to other states but many people who want to go check out a Livewire are going to drive a lot farther than they expected to see one.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on May 30, 2019, 08:19:00 PM
Does anybody here have plans to buy a LiveWire--even a maybe?

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on May 30, 2019, 08:20:26 PM
I hear that level 3 charging systems are not all that cheap to install. Since H-D dealers, just like any vehicle retail dealership, are concerned about their bottom line, dealers that feel that their customers would not be interested in the LiveWire are unlikely to spend the money to install one of two of those charging stations if they feel they will not bring in additional business. Plus, since the cost for recharging at those stations is likely to be free to the customer, that is another expense that the dealer has to consider.
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on May 30, 2019, 08:20:54 PM
Does anybody here have plans to buy a LiveWire--even a maybe?

-Don-  Reno, NV

Not even dreaming about it.   ::)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on May 30, 2019, 08:29:31 PM
Not even dreaming about it.   ::)
I cannot imagine anybody buying one for 30K$ when bikes such as the Zero SR/F are available for around half the price.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on May 30, 2019, 08:35:06 PM
I hear that level 3 charging systems are not all that cheap to install. Since H-D dealers, just like any vehicle retail dealership, are concerned about their bottom line, dealers that feel that their customers would not be interested in the LiveWire are unlikely to spend the money to install one of two of those charging stations if they feel they will not bring in additional business. Plus, since the cost for recharging at those stations is likely to be free to the customer, that is another expense that the dealer has to consider.
They don't have to worry about the expense of it being free to the customer.  I doubt they will have many, if any, customers with the LiveWire.  I could be wrong, but I doubt if many Livewires will be sold @ 30K$.

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: Richard230 on May 31, 2019, 03:32:05 AM
I hear that level 3 charging systems are not all that cheap to install. Since H-D dealers, just like any vehicle retail dealership, are concerned about their bottom line, dealers that feel that their customers would not be interested in the LiveWire are unlikely to spend the money to install one of two of those charging stations if they feel they will not bring in additional business. Plus, since the cost for recharging at those stations is likely to be free to the customer, that is another expense that the dealer has to consider.
They don't have to worry about the expense of it being free to the customer.  I doubt they will have many, if any, customers with the LiveWire.  I could be wrong, but I doubt if many Livewires will be sold @ 30K$.

-Don-  Reno, NV

When it comes to marketing H-D motorcycles, you never know.  ::) But I am not putting any money on H-D being overwhelmed by dealer orders, considering the history of their non-cruiser models. Anything thing that even looks like a sport bike, standard, or ADV motorcycle is going to sell like a dead duck at H-D dealerships.  ;)
Title: Re: Any news?
Post by: DonTom on May 31, 2019, 03:52:53 AM
When it comes to marketing H-D motorcycles, you never know.  ::) But I am not putting any money on H-D being overwhelmed by dealer orders, considering the history of their non-cruiser models. Anything thing that even looks like a sport bike, standard, or ADV motorcycle is going to sell like a dead duck at H-D dealerships.  ;)
Yep. When the  Harley new M8 ICE engine was first designed, it had 100% balancing. Harley decided it was way too smooth and went with 75% balancing so their "riders would know they are on a motorcycle".

See here. (https://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcycles-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine#page-9)

" When an engine with complete vibration cancellation was tested, riders rejected it;"

I think they mean "Harley Riders" above, not just "riders".   I wonder what a Goldwing rider would say about a touring bike being too smooth. 

However, I must  admit, my Harley has a very nice feel to it. It's nothing like the typical nut-shaker Harley.  I was a Harley hater until I rode  the 2017 Road Glide which has both  a new engine and frame.

But how much noise and vibration will the LiveWire have to satisfy the real Harley riders? Who else would buy it for 30K$ after  seeing a Zero SR/F?

-Don-  Reno, NV