ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Brammo Forum => Topic started by: NEW2elec on November 01, 2016, 10:25:08 AM
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They had a good showing at Pikes Peak I hope they put it to use.
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I hope so too. Atleast some firmware updates would be good. Maybe an app to tweak parameters like regen etc would be a good start!
Strangely on victory's website even though the Empulse TT is a 2016 model, in the accessories section, there is only a 2017 Empulse TT. It may not mean anything but it may as well. I'm waiting to see if i can get my hands on something for my TT!
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My observation is that Victory seems to respond to H-D's marketing. When H-D came out with the LiveWire, Polaris bought Brammo and introduced the Empulse TT. Then when the LiveWire faded away, so did Victory's enthusiasm for electric motorcycles. If they don't announce a new 2017 version of the Empulse that actually has some obvious improvements by the end of the year, then I don't know what they are up to. My guess is that they are waiting for H-D to introduce a production electric motorcycle and when (and if) that happens, Victory will follow with their version. In the meantime they just seem to be playing around, getting the feel of electric power with their racing program and following through with in-house development. It just doesn't seem to me that Victory is making much of an EV commercial marketing push right now. I have heard that their dealers are not all that excited about having to sell and service the Empulse TT - which is the same reaction that I get from talking to BMW dealers.
BMW plans to bring in the C-Evolution to the U.S. market next year. If that catches hold, perhaps that will cause Victory and H-D to move forward with their plans. But I am not holding my breath for that. I don't think Zero is leaving very much meat on the electric motorcycle bone right now. ???
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My guess would be that Victory would definitely want to put its racing experience to use somewhere. Pikes Peak, IOM etc. The project 156's tech definitely went into the Octane. This time the Empulse RR definitely performed very well on Pikes Peak. So a good guess to make is that, the knowledge gained there would go somewhere. If not it would not make sense for Victory to invest in these arenas for their electric motorcycle program. It may as well be that they may not launch anything this year but wait a full year to launch something else. I could certainly be sure that it may not be a response to H-D, even though they're the closest competitors :)
Zero definitely has the lion's share in the market. But if Victory or any other manufacturer (could be Zero too) can come up with an electric motorcycle like the way Tesla came up with the Model S (great components, great range, supercharger) etc then that's going to be the real gamechanger.
The best thing that can happen to electric motorcycles is the DC fast charging option. That would effectively eliminate range anxiety. Even with an 80 mile highway range, its great to be able to charge to 80-85% in like 15 mins while the rider takes a break. Unfortunately Energica is the only bike offering that at the moment. I do hope that comes in as an option from the other manufacturers. Energica has plans to setup DC fast chargers in CA just like how Tesla started off. That would be the key to make range anxiety go away.
Unfortunately Energica bikes are way too expensive :(
I know they're launching a new concept for EICMA 2016. If thats a bike for $20k with DC fast charge, it could be the best deal :)
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Well, Lightning is still around and it costs about the same as the Energica. But I have no idea if they have actually sold any yet. ??? I can't think of any reason that they couldn't sell a few at $40,000, so there must be something else going on. Maybe the Lightning LS-218 is not approved by DOT for use on public roads? ???
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Oh yes, Lightning Motorcycles. It indeed skipped my mind. I really hope they dont reach the same fate as Mission Motors. I really feel sad about Mission Motors, after all the poaching that Apple did, they scrapped their EV program. I think it was the one that really looked futuristic, more futuristic than Brammo Empulse. I am not sure if they ever sold any bikes and if they, whatever happened to them!
Lightning does look great. But so doesn Energica Ego :)
You're right though, maybe they arent DOT approved for whatever reason! Safety concerns because of its speed maybe?
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Lightning has soldd at least one production unit a few years ago, but they've been out of the headlines ever since. I doubt they have a 20k option in the works the way Energica does.
As far as Apple's poaching from Mission, I find it much more likely that some of Mission's employees left them because after 10 years of hype they still didn't have a production model.
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Does Energica have a 20k model in the works?
Mission did fail to put out a production model but i think they were doing good with their race program. Its really unfortunate on many levels though. It kinda had the potential to be like Tesla. Where a company starts with a model thats targeted for that kind of a niche consumers.
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Well racing can't be cheap! One needs to only look at the movie charge to see it is no small venture. I fear that too many manufacturers, especially in the electric motorcycle industry, feel that they have to show their chops in racing to be taken seriously like the ICE manufacturers have done.
But development of EVs is also an extremely expensive endeavour. How do you do both and not run out of money? Then there is the whole production side of things. Just cause you can make one good race bike doesn't mean you can mass produce and working production model.
You can't draw parallels between the EV industry and the ICE industry. Just too fundamentally different! I see this mistake all the time.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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I do think racing matters to a good extent whether its EV or ICE. U can always use racing as an R&D arena (which is what its been used for by many companies). Developing a good firmware and BMS can always be done by testing things out in racing. Why racing matters is because the vehicles go through all sorts of extreme loads on components and drivetrains which cant really be done with road testing. And its how all these function under hard stress levels that determine the quality of the product.
Agreed that not all of the production models will go through high stress in normal day to day conditions. But when there is a situation where it needs to be able to take the loads, it should have the capability to.
Racing is also a medium for showcasing the technology and putting the brand name in the market.
To give the most recent example, AUDI left endurance racing to venture into Formula E because it intends to invest in electric technology and utilize some or good amount of what it learns from racing into production vehicles. So we should definitely not count out racing entirely is my thinking :)
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I have a very reliable source at Polaris and there will be no more Electric Bikes or even 2017 models unless something changed.
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Low was not only right about the TT but all of Victory is now dead. Putting all their efforts into Indian. I wonder if they sell off the old Brammo? What a waste.
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My dealer has one on stock they lowered to $14K - I put a standing offer of 10K - you have to remember these are going to be hard to sell knowing the parts are limited with no support from dealers.
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Bye-bye Victory. :(
http://tinyurl.com/jfns9kl (http://tinyurl.com/jfns9kl)
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So is Polaris going to offer an Indian Empulse (yeah right) or is the old Brammo line done? I'd guess that latter.
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Electric motorcycles is off the plate for Polaris - they got their ass whiped and lost millions thanks to the effort of Zero - Anyone coming in the market will have some big shoes to fill now.
The only company that has the technology and ability to shut down Zero is Honda - if they take a notion to do electric they will be successful because they have the technology, money and reputation to back it up.
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Electric motorcycles is off the plate for Polaris - they got their ass whiped and lost millions thanks to the effort of Zero - Anyone coming in the market will have some big shoes to fill now.
Victory didn't seem to put a ton of energy into selling the Empulse.
Their website was pretty barebones - didn't even have a range spec. They made one nicely executed ad - did it see any play on TV? They funded the Isle of Man TT efforts in 2015 and 2016, as well as the Pikes Peak 2016 effort. But the bike itself was curiously even more expensive than at its introduction in 2012, and lost the carbon fiber and higher-spec suspension bits. Brammo owners had difficulty getting support, though perhaps Victory Empulse owners will do better?
It certainly doesn't help that Zero has made huge strides and cut their prices significantly since 2012, but Polaris's real opportunity was selling to the huge percentage of motorcycle customers that have barely heard of Zero and who would vastly prefer to purchase a bike from a traditional manufacturer.
And they blew it.
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It's not just the Empulse that is gone from Victory, it is Victory that is gone. Polaris pulled the plug on the brand entirely.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonfogelson/2017/01/11/polaris-industries-kills-off-victory-motorcycles/#5de326e5221b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonfogelson/2017/01/11/polaris-industries-kills-off-victory-motorcycles/#5de326e5221b)
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Not a peep in that article about their Empulse TT electric motorcycle model though. ???
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So is Polaris going to offer an Indian Empulse (yeah right) or is the old Brammo line done? I'd guess that latter.
Looks like there will be electric Indian bikes by 2020, with a new design...
http://www.ien.com/product-development/video/20853558/indian-sparking-new-life-in-polaris-electric-motorcycles (http://www.ien.com/product-development/video/20853558/indian-sparking-new-life-in-polaris-electric-motorcycles)
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According to A&R, they seem to be more interested in building an "Electric Toy" than a practical urban commuter, though:
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/indian-electric-motorcycle/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/indian-electric-motorcycle/)
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The link indicates a 120 to 140 mile range "when ridden at an aggressive pace", so 20% to 40% greater than
Zero S 13 with power tank at 70 mph ( not aggressive in my book ). Doesn't sound like a toy to me.
But, this is several years away so we will see. Hopefully Indian is a more credible / established manufacturer.
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Right. They can say anything they want... it's what they DELIVER that counts.
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So is Polaris going to offer an Indian Empulse (yeah right) or is the old Brammo line done? I'd guess that latter.
Looks like there will be electric Indian bikes by 2020, with a new design...
http://www.ien.com/product-development/video/20853558/indian-sparking-new-life-in-polaris-electric-motorcycles (http://www.ien.com/product-development/video/20853558/indian-sparking-new-life-in-polaris-electric-motorcycles)
That video has to be the best definition of fake news I've seen on bikes!
Rest totally assured that you'll never see and electric with the Indian name - it makes no sense, the whole concept of the Indian brand is to bring back the vintage looks of Indian motorcycles. I'm not saying that Polaris won't re-introduce another electric buts its highly unlikely. Polaris was dumping the Empulse over a year ago - they never could sell that bike and all the dealers hated it.
Polaris's biggest problem is Zero since it has easily twice the performance of the Empulse at less money. Polaris loss millions on acquiring that machine - if there is a new electric they will have to start from scratch since there is nothing on the Empulse that is usable except for the chassis.
Regards
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I would certainly bet its going to be a Polaris branded bike and not Indian. Just like how they have the Slingshot under Polaris. Just like how people have pointed out here, it does not make sense for an electric Indian, unless its something in the likes of LiveWire.
"The characteristics of the new powertrain are going to be more applicable to be able to ride a bike in pleasure and twisties, and kind of how you would use pleasure bikes today," says Steve Menneto of Polaris' motorcycle division.
So maybe they are going to use the Empulse platform (atleast the chassis). Considering that its a few years away, they will most certainly make use of the Brammo patents to develop a new powertrain and a battery system. At best this is probably an educated guess.
On a side note, t would be great if polaris is back to TT Zero and Pikes Peak!
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There really is no 2017 models There is left over 16's parts
Polaris is just building out and clearing their existing Victory parts to make room additional Indian expansion.
Regards
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That video has to be the best definition of fake news I've seen on bikes!
Other sources:
http://www.reuters.com/article/polaris-inds-products-idUSL4N1G849V
(http://www.reuters.com/article/polaris-inds-products-idUSL4N1G849V)
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2017/03/03/polaris-planning-an-electric-indian-motorcycle.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2017/03/03/polaris-planning-an-electric-indian-motorcycle.html)