ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle Events => Topic started by: Doctorbass on August 03, 2016, 11:09:18 AM
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Temptation was too high i built it guys!
A real Zero drag race bike!
was Zero S 2012 ZF9
now is: Zero SR ZF0.7 ! 8)
Yes, a true 100C Ultra High performance LiPo battery of 82V and 9Ah capable of 70kW for couple seconds and that weight 13 pounds only!.. This one replace the 180 pounds 7.8kWh ZF9 original battery.
The bike weight less than 200 pounds and have about 50kW power. No MBB, No DC-dc, No CCU, No charger, no BMS,. Only Motor, battery, size 6 controller and a lightweight frame!
here is some personal photo shoot of it:
Doc
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close up of the battery motor and controller:
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Wow, that is really quite something to see! I hope you have a lot of good times and no bad times with that. :)
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Wow, that is really quite something to see! I hope you have a lot of good times and no bad times with that. :)
I want to see a video like that classic deathbike video.
"you know this is dangerous right?"
"yup"
"And you want to try it anyway?"
"yup"
"ookay"
**loops bike out instantly and lands on butt**
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Ah haa yeah.. a classic 8)
Or this can be solved with a "less Agressive" throttle curve,... and controlled torque per rpm... using the sevcon great features ;) that is something DC and Alltrax have more difficult to acheive.
But for sure! that bike will be quick!
Doc
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I'm tired of your nasty comments, MrDude. Doctorbass may have taken on some risk here, but he is better positioned than nearly anyone on this forum to put this together and use it. I wish him the best.
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I'm tired of your nasty comments, MrDude. Doctorbass may have taken on some risk here, but he is better positioned than nearly anyone on this forum to put this together and use it. I wish him the best.
You just dont know what the hell im talking about. Doctorbass does.. because hes seen the liveforphysics deathbike video from years ago when liveforphysics made his drag ebike.
I know exactly who he is.
I am not insulting him.
I am bringing up a fun memory of a mutual friend.
None of my comments are nasty.
You have a bad attitude.
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I'm tired of your nasty comments, MrDude. Doctorbass may have taken on some risk here, but he is better positioned than nearly anyone on this forum to put this together and use it. I wish him the best.
You just dont know what the hell im talking about. Doctorbass does.. because hes seen the liveforphysics deathbike video from years ago when liveforphysics made his drag ebike.
I know exactly who he is.
I am not insulting him.
I am bringing up a fun memory of a mutual friend.
None of my comments are nasty.
You have a bad attitude.
That's not how that read at all (and yes I know we know this video); most of your comments around here are condescending and rude and this has the same tone.
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Seriously, why would you ask to see a video like the original? You're literally citing humiliation in your first response. That looks really bad to people who are not insiders here.
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That's not how that read at all (and yes I know we know this video); most of your comments around here are condescending and rude and this has the same tone.
I think its more of a personal problem. This probably applies:
In anycase this thread isnt the place for this. If you want to tell me you think Im rude you send me a PM, you dont go messing up someone elses thread. Thats also rude.
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Way cool! I feel sorry for that skinny little belt, though.
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The most important thing we all want to know: does it wheely?
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The most important thing we all want to know: does it wheely?
Soon we will know, but i have ZERO doubt! 8)
Doc
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The most important thing we all want to know: does it wheely?
Soon we will know, but i have ZERO doubt! 8)
Doc
Looking forward to seeing some videos of that thing go :)
Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
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Maybe put in a big empty box just to fill in all that empty space?
What do you think she'll do?
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http://scifun.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/1267552136847.jpg (http://scifun.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/1267552136847.jpg)
Good luck and hang on.
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I think all the empty space makes for a visually interesting bike :)
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I think all the empty space makes for a visually interesting bike :)
Agreed. Please don't play around with too much with the existing aesthetics.
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no worrie, it will remain as is.. until i discover how much aerodynamic can help to lower the E.T. ;)
And YES i confirm that machine is a true WHEELIE machine!!
at 75% torque setting the front end lift to about 5 degrees sustained while it accelerate like a TESLA !
First REAL test soon!
i'm installing a cycle analyst on it to have real time visual on the kW, SOC and voltage. it will also datalog all info just like the Sevcon does also.
I will also install a VBOX to have 1/10s fast sampling GPS speedometer.
That beast is QUICK !!
Doc
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You should put a teddy bear with old time airplane goggles in the empty frame. That would be hilarious!
Subscribe to Benswing on YouTube to follow my summer journeys.
Like Ben Rich - Electric Biker on Facebook.
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no worrie, it will remain as is.. until i discover how much aerodynamic can help to lower the E.T. ;)
And YES i confirm that machine is a true WHEELIE machine!!
at 75% torque setting the front end lift to about 5 degrees sustained while it accelerate like a TESLA !
First REAL test soon!
i'm installing a cycle analyst on it to have real time visual on the kW, SOC and voltage. it will also datalog all info just like the Sevcon does also.
I will also install a VBOX to have 1/10s fast sampling GPS speedometer.
That beast is QUICK !!
Doc
Going by the pictures there are still a few low hanging fruits you can shave off to save weight and improve drag. For example I don't think you need indicators at a drag race ;D
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Doc,
The sticker says 70 kW.
Is it wrong or just early? : )
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Doc,
The sticker says 70 kW.
Is it wrong or just early? : )
Yes the sticker is good, that battery can deliver up to 70kW and has been tested to that power level but the sevcon size 6 is limited to 50kW so the bike is 50kW.... from now!.. untyil i beef up that battery and install dual size 6... but this might be only next year.
Actually at 80% torque this is a true wheelie machine! and at 75% it make a perfect 5 degree Wheelie from 0 to 120kmh! but that is with the 132T and 30T. Harlan sent me the 98T and belt kit . i'll use these to increase powerband and speed and make me able to set max torque to 100%
Doc
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with 50kw(67hp) and total weight of 360 pounds this will make a ratio of 5.37 pounds per hp witch is very close to the Ford Shelby GT500 at 5.8
Doc
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with 50kw(67hp) and total weight of 360 pounds this will make a ratio of 5.37 pounds per hp witch is very close to the Ford Shelby GT500 at 5.8
Doc
Are you including your own weight in with that 360 pounds? (I think I'd leave it out, if so).
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This is a really cool machine. Ive pulled 62kW indicated on a Cycle Analyst with a maxed out Size6 controller. Be curious what you pull at 100%
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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with 50kw(67hp) and total weight of 360 pounds this will make a ratio of 5.37 pounds per hp witch is very close to the Ford Shelby GT500 at 5.8
Doc
Are you including your own weight in with that 360 pounds? (I think I'd leave it out, if so).
Yes this include me as well!
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Hi Doc,
Any time slips yet? {curious} Have fun!
Frank
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Hi Doc,
Any time slips yet? {curious} Have fun!
Frank
this wekend for sure! if mother nature is good with us!.. i'll test it at the Pont Rouge drag way
(http://www.dragpontrouge.com/historique/pontrouge1.jpg)
Doc
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with 50kw(67hp) and total weight of 360 pounds this will make a ratio of 5.37 pounds per hp witch is very close to the Ford Shelby GT500 at 5.8
Doc
Are you including your own weight in with that 360 pounds? (I think I'd leave it out, if so).
Yes this include me as well!
This would seem to be a case where the weight of the jockey is even more critical than that in horse racing. Think what the weight/power ratio would be with a well-trained teenager who might only weigh 100 pounds or so.
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with 50kw(67hp) and total weight of 360 pounds this will make a ratio of 5.37 pounds per hp witch is very close to the Ford Shelby GT500 at 5.8
Doc
Are you including your own weight in with that 360 pounds? (I think I'd leave it out, if so).
Yes this include me as well!
This would seem to be a case where the weight of the jockey is even more critical than that in horse racing. Think what the weight/power ratio would be with a well-trained teenager who might only weigh 100 pounds or so.
This setup will be about 5.8 pounds per hp with me at 160 pounds
Doc
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Ride safe!
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Ride safe!
Yes.. that's important!.. curiously I'm actually installing a safety switch 8) that require two hands on the handle bar to have the throttle to work.. if one hand is not present, then i have to recycle the RUN/OFF switch to make the throttle to operate again.
This will avoid turning accidently the throttle while the system is ready...
Doc
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Doc, let us know how this works for you. I've not had any issues with that but I can hear a small coolant pump running and I monitor aux. battery voltage, so have a display to look at. Have you installed a tether kill switch? This might be more important. Think about the process of making a pass: you're probably not doing a burnout but I keep my visor up until after I'm pre-staged. If you have to stop and recycle the power it may be confusing in the stress of the moment. What you describe sounds good if it's wired as a "dead man" switch only.
Good luck!
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I have installed a key switch that turn On the controller that then turn on the contactor.
Also a RUN switch witch is connected to teh FORWARD action signal that is required to have any throttle active.
Also a kill switch that is directly connected to the contactor. in case of emergency it will shut down the main contactor. that kill switch is a Normally Close type.
And finally a 5th switch that is another condition to get the throttle to be active. this is a left handbrake thati'm using as a switch. In other words, both of my left and right hand must be on tehhandlebar to have the throttle to work. if my left hand stop pressing the handle for more than 0.5s (that i've programmed), then the throttle cut and i have to cycle the RUN switch to get the throttle back.
If the motorcycle fall to the ground while i make a run (if an accident happen) it will be impossibel for the motor to continu to operate due to the left handle that stop receiving the brake handle signal ( it is not connected to the brake.. i only use it as a switch)
Doc
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Ok last results: still at 60% max torque.. i tried at 50 and 60%... but at 605 i had controller cut out...
I then set it to 75% but goes lower on teh throttle from the start line.
at 50% i got 0-60ft at 2.08s and 13.9 at 85mph on the 1/4
at 60% torque setting i had controller cut out but i got 1.9s on the 0-60ft
At 75% and low throttle on teh start line, i got 0-60ft at 2.00s and 8.20 for the 1/8 and 13.2 on the 1/4 at 92mph.
I am still very satisfied with these preliminary results. First reason is that i got 8.5s (1/8mile) and 13.9s (1/4mile) at 100% throttle for 50% max torque setting. that run was 132Wh energy. This is very promissing for when i'll be able to set 100% torque and have no cutout !
secondly, because i got 13.2s at 75% torque but reduced throttle from the start witch is my current best 1/4 time ever... with very conservative settings! so i have alot margin to improove the 1/8 and 1/4 mile times!
tomorrow i will get my lower ratio sproket kit ( 98 instead of 132T) and will test next weekend at Pont Rouge drag race.
Doc
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MY BEST RUN YET AT 75% TORQUE AND REDUCED THROTTLE FROM THE START LINE:
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Hey Doc,
Those are really good times already :)
My best 1/8 mile race was the following, 2014 SR with my ~210 pounds in gear:
0.584s reaction
2.091s 60 ft
5.449s 330 ft
8.208s 1/8 et
87.73 mph trap
I'm a drag strip newbie. My first three runs were a little variable, the last five runs were all within 8.20-8.26 et and 87.0-87.7 mph. Very consistent.
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Doc: a good start. 132 -> 98 teeth is a big jump and it will be interesting to see what happens. Do you know why the controller is cutting out? Did the bike want to wheelie?
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Doc: a good start. 132 -> 98 teeth is a big jump and it will be interesting to see what happens. Do you know why the controller is cutting out? Did the bike want to wheelie?
Ok i just received the 98 tooth rear sproket and 200 tooth belt today from Hollywood Electric. ;D
the controller finetuning is not finished yet. i have to tune the power map ( max torque vs RPM) and curent control gain and PI loop in the current control. these Sevcon controller are not like brushed controller and " a bit " more complicated, but once it is done it will perform without cut out.
last time i got overcurrent fault..
Here is the sumary of teh instructions i made from some discussion with Biff regarding that:
1: Start setting the powermap to 100% to all the rpm range.
2: Prepare the Vehicule Interface to record the run just like when commissioning the angle,
3: Do a power WOT pull,(it is really easy to do with a dyno or if you bring your laptop on the Zero you can run tit WOT on the road and record it.)
4: Then graph the actual torque (by using the button called: "Graph PMAC Power - Iq act" down to the power map interface window, and selecting the vehicle interface trace that you saved)
5: Then remap the power map to just a bit higher than than the one i achieved. that way it gets slightly better current control than if it is trying to see how close to the 100% one you had,
also it makes it more stable without decreasing the power.
(you need to have the correct things mapped in TPDO's so that the utility can get the information it needs from the vehicle interface recording)
I can't remember what those are. I think the default ones we have on the Zero work for one of the "map actual" buttons.
there are 2 "map actual" buttons, I think one uses Iq and ID, the other uses tq_actual or something like that
Doc
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Received today!
Big thanks to HOLLYWOOD ELECTRIC
These will improove performances as well !
Doc
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Here is some data i have compiled to decide witch gear ratio to choose.
Doc
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I don't know much about the Zero motors: what speed gives best power? The 98-tooth will hurt acceleration but if the motor "pulls" longer than overall performance may improve. ??
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I don't know much about the Zero motors: what speed gives best power? The 98-tooth will hurt acceleration but if the motor "pulls" longer than overall performance may improve. ??
that is what i tought.. it to find the best trade off between powerband and torque from the start...
these motor usually get their peak power at 3500-4000rpm then torque start to decrease.
But i still have 40% torque left! ;) so at the wheel after i replace the sproket i will still get a bit more torque... after i set it to 100% in the setings.
Doc
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Any update with the new pulley set, Doc?
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Congratulations on the progress. I haven't viewed this thread since before you ran the bike.
I was looking through some of my old time slips to see if there was something similar
for a projection. The attached is for two cars with similar 330 times to yours. Your slip shows
a gain of only about 8 mph for the last 1/8 mile.
The left lane ( 506 ) is my car which is a turbocharged Buicik.
I believe that the right lane was a turbocharged Honda CRX. Given the light state of tune
and gearing that you had at the time, Gearing alone should bring you to at least
low 12s. with a trap speed of between 100 and 105 mph. Stronger tune, harder
launch should put you closer to mid to low 11s. I wouldn't be surprised to see
you running in the 10s once all sorted out. Assuming that the chassis feels solid at that speed.
Once in that range, you will probably be back to being speed limited by the gearing.
I haven't seen a lot of 1/4 mile times for the Zeros, but, from THIS web site, your bike seems
to already be faster than a stock S.
http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/ (http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/)
You are right at the National NEDRA 1/8 record set by Jeremiah Johnson in 2014. 1/4 mile record at the time would probably have been gearing limited as well.
http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html (http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html)
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UPDATE!!:
Last Sunday i have finished building my wheelie bar ( and YES at 70%+ power the front wheel lift!) and tested it on teh dragway!
Here are all my run of 18 september with various Power limit so you can see the progression.
The most significant difference is the shift from 50% to 75% power witch droped my 1/4 time by 1.5s !!!
warming up run( first run): 14.09s at 50% power
next run at 75% power: 12.52s
third run still at 75% power: 12.46s
4th run at 85% power: 12.29s ( I was racing against a GSX witch did 12.56s)
Incressing from 50% to 75% reduced by 1.5s (not enough power to meet top speed... ( the 50% power limited max speed ))
incrasing from 75% to 85% reduced by 0.2s.. here, 10% more reduced by 0.2s
if that relationship is still in the linear region, i could expect to reach the high 11 with 100% with the actual gearing... BUT... the is limited speed due to the stock actual low speed gearing. I will make a change and replace the rear 132T by the 98T witch will in theory raise top speed to 132mph is that relationship is linear but we know it is not and power will limit this value to lower result..
After a total of 7 runs(4 good and 3 bad) to 670Amp (75C rate) the battery was about 45 degree C only!
I got peak power to 48kW running only on 22s while the Zero normally use 28s.... Yes a little 9Ah battery gave me the 48kW !
here are the numbers of my best run witch was at 85% power ( at 90% i still get cut out )
0-60ft: 1.68s
0-330ft: 4.63s
1/8mile: 7.3 @ 87.4mph
1/4mile: 12.2@92mph
max power limit was set to 85% and gear was set for torque and not speed.(132T and 30T)
From what i know THAT IS THE QUICKEST EXISTING ZERO !... from what i know.. MPC-G class of NEDRA has now 12.2s ! next step is to modify the gear ratio, but today i wanted to know what is the max i can get out of the rear 132T. Next time i'll install the 98T. and 200 T belt. The first half of the 1/4 is very good but the second half my aceleration is very low... So gaining top speed with the faster gear ratio and raising power to 100% i should be able to keep the first 1/8 in the mid 7s but will get in the low 11s or even high 10s with better top speed to about 110-115mph
The link to the VIDEO is after these pics
(https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=201769)
(https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=201771)
(https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=201774)
https://youtu.be/iVMPBnfhukM (https://youtu.be/iVMPBnfhukM)
Doc
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Give 'em hell Doc
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Good work Doc - waiting to see results after your next mods... :)
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Massively impressed Doc, keep at it!
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here are the numbers of my best run witch was at 85% power ( at 90% i still get cut out )
0-60ft: 1.68s
0-330ft: 4.63s
1/8mile: 7.3 @ 87.4mph
1/4mile: 12.2@92mph
max power limit was set to 85% and gear was set for torque and not speed.(132T and 30T)
From what i know THAT IS THE QUICKEST EXISTING ZERO !... from what i know.. MPC-G class of NEDRA has now 12.2s ! next step is to modify the gear ratio, but today i wanted to know what is the max i can get out of the rear 132T. Next time i'll install the 98T. and 200 T belt. The first half of the 1/4 is very good but the second half my aceleration is very low... So gaining top speed with the faster gear ratio and raising power to 100% i should be able to keep the first 1/8 in the mid 7s but will get in the low 11s or even high 10s with better top speed to about 110-115mph
Wow! 12.2 in the quarter at 92 mph is a weird result for sure :)
I think in the quarter mile you will see much better performance with the 98 tooth.
I'm curious as to how a 3 brick SR would perform.. I don't think it would do better than this, even with a light rider.
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Looks like your numbers are pretty close to what I projected.
If you still run out of gear with the 25/98 sprocket combination, a 98/30 setup
should give you a top speed in the neighborhood of 130 mph. Should be a killer
ride if able to handle the load.
( rpm * tire diameter ) / ( gear ratio * 336 ) = MPH
Congratulations Again.
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thanks guys! I am proud about that result, but i have some margin so i want to show you better performance again! 8)
Next will be to replace the 132 by the 98 T.. i have all 25, 28 and 30T gear too and i calculated all possible match and the 28/98 seem teh best trade off to not sacrify the 0-60ft too mych but improove speed.
I will also play with the POWER limit table in DVT.. my actual curve is not optimized and i get cut out with overcurrent fault when i go over 85% current.
I have found very interesting document about how to optimize the motor with sevcon... i will also have to optimize ki and kp PI... well some stuff you dont have to mess with when using brushed motor.. lol
6.6. Power Limit table The power limit table 0x4611 is used in exactly the same way as in the flux vector software. The peak torque in this table should match the motor peak torque value set in 0x6076. It was found on early applications that the power limit table if not known could be derived on the application. This was done be setting the power limit values flat, i.e. all torques set to the maximum value. The vehicle was then driven and a DVT trace taken of the Iq current. The actual current would reduce naturally as the speed increases even though the reference was constant, the current controllers would be saturated. The Ke constant could then be used in the relationship between torque and Iq in order to calculate what torque would result in the actual Iq currents measured. By doing this the reference current would then be very close to the actual achievable.
In order to perform this procedure the current control fault will need to be disabled by setting Temporary DSP Configuration (0x4653,0) bit 0. This setting is not persistent and will be lost after a key recycle.
I hope that this sunday i will be abel to test again... i would love to have my own DYNO... !.. maybe i'll build it using my other 75-7 as a load and my 10kW load bank... well see..
Doc
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I know that Tesla increases power draw as they expand battery capacity.
Given that your battery pack is presently 13lbs. Would doubling the capacity
help your cut out issues? We used to figure that 10 lbs was equal to one horsepower.
Could be a worthwhile trade off.
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I know that Tesla increases power draw as they expand battery capacity.
Given that your battery pack is presently 13lbs. Would doubling the capacity
help your cut out issues? We used to figure that 10 lbs was equal to one horsepower.
Could be a worthwhile trade off.
Well the battery i'm using are way more powerfull than 10 pounds per hp. These are 100c Lipo sold by John Metric from Lonestar EV... it's like apple and orange compared to other battery.
That battery can sustain 680A at 85V no prob and can take more. There is no cutout due to battery as i dont have any error related to that in the controller the battery sag to about 3.4V and i have set the LVC to 3.0V
Doc
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instead of regearing for more mph, why not raise the voltage with another couple cells?
clearly you could put down more torque at the start line, so why dial that back for a few mph?
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yes, i will do that I still can add 6s ( 22V), i will need to order these.. but that will be for the 2017 season as winter(snow) is arriving soon here.. and that is a quite convincing factor to stop the drag racing season :-\
Doc
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Way cool! This is using the stock motor with upgraded controller and battery, correct?
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Way cool! This is using the stock motor with upgraded controller and battery, correct?
The motor is a 75-7 from a 2013 S and the controlelr is a size 6 just like the SR use. Teh frame and the rest are from a 2012 witch is the lightest
Doc
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Doc, you will be surprised at the performance increase in warmer weather. I would think about some method of heating the cells (even for a Quebec "summer"). I use these same cells in my LSR bike; after one pass the pack would heat approx. 10F* and I would experience 10V less sag (96S pack). Same thing on the drag bike: cool packs just don't perform as well.
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Clearly the best winter weather solution is for the bike to go south... My garage seems like a good candidate, since it doesnt snow here. ;D
lol, seriously though I cant wait to see what another 6s does to that. The bike will leave harder and have a higher mph.
Then the next step is setting the throttle curve just right. You want a smooth firm hit off the line, but once you're about 60ft out, you can put alot more power down... That timeslip is funny with the good 60ft, then the huh 330... and then the low mph. This bike will be nuts once you add 6s.
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Doc, you will be surprised at the performance increase in warmer weather. I would think about some method of heating the cells (even for a Quebec "summer"). I use these same cells in my LSR bike; after one pass the pack would heat approx. 10F* and I would experience 10V less sag (96S pack). Same thing on the drag bike: cool packs just don't perform as well.
Yes you are right, The internal ersistance of the cells get lower with warmer temp. This make less voltage sag. i know Bill Dube with the illacycle was heating the cells at 70 degree C to get best performances.. however these are LiFePO4, not lipo like i use so that higher temp ccan not be as high.. I guess that 50-55 celsius is the max. this also degrade cell life but for drag racing purpose, loosing couple hundred cycles is not alarming..
Doc
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Doc, you will be surprised at the performance increase in warmer weather. I would think about some method of heating the cells (even for a Quebec "summer"). I use these same cells in my LSR bike; after one pass the pack would heat approx. 10F* and I would experience 10V less sag (96S pack). Same thing on the drag bike: cool packs just don't perform as well.
I can confirm that. My friend always puts his lipo-packs into a heatbag and looks that they ar warm before he puts them into his high-end 3d-helicopters (6-12s)
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Doc, you will be surprised at the performance increase in warmer weather. I would think about some method of heating the cells (even for a Quebec "summer"). I use these same cells in my LSR bike; after one pass the pack would heat approx. 10F* and I would experience 10V less sag (96S pack). Same thing on the drag bike: cool packs just don't perform as well.
Yes you are right, The internal ersistance of the cells get lower with warmer temp. This make less voltage sag. i know Bill Dube with the illacycle was heating the cells at 70 degree C to get best performances.. however these are LiFePO4, not lipo like i use so that higher temp ccan not be as high.. I guess that 50-55 celsius is the max. this also degrade cell life but for drag racing purpose, loosing couple hundred cycles is not alarming..
Doc
Doc: I'm talking about the difference between 75*F and 85*F i.e. barely above ambient.
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All chemical reactions (including the ones that go on in batteries) proceed faster with increased temperature, so I think it's fair to assume all batteries will perform better at elevated temperature, until you reach the point where you're actually damaging them.