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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: remmie on April 30, 2016, 12:20:43 AM
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Tried my new homemade supercharger yesterday. (Wintertime is tinkering time 8) )
Managed to charge with 83 ! Amps from 52% to 90% in under 30 minutes ;D
For my first attempt at a fast-charger see : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.msg24310#msg24310 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.msg24310#msg24310)
The following data is from the Zero App (ZF11.4 battery pack, 10.500 kWh capacity reported by the Zero App)
18:40 52% SOC, 0:30 to full charge, 83 Amps, 8628 Watt
18:46 60% SOC, 0:25 to full charge, 83 Amps, 8801 Watt
18:48 65% SOC, 0:22 to full charge, 83 Amps, 8863 Watt
18:52 70% SOC, 0:20 to full charge, 78 Amps, 8431 Watt
18:56 75% SOC, 0:16 to full charge, 78 Amps, 8554 Watt
19:00 80% SOC, 0:13 to full charge, 78 Amps, 8693 Watt
19:04 85% SOC, 0:10 to full charge, 78 Amps, 8805 Watt
19:05 87% SOC, 0:10 to full charge, 67 Amps, 7601 Watt, this is where the rectifiers started tapering off (reduce their current because constant voltage is reached)
19:08 89% SOC, 0:12 to full charge, 51 Amps, 5804 Watt
19:09 90% SOC, 0:13 to full charge, 46 Amps, 5244 Watt
So from 52% to 87% (+35%) in 25 minutes would mean 84% per hour
My Homemade 'supercharger' consists of 2 sets of Eltek Flatpack rectifiers.
The first set is a Flatpack S charger (48 Volts 1800 Watts) and a Eltek flatpack 2 HE rectifier (48V 2000W)
The second set are 2 pcs Eltek flatpack 2 HE rectifiers (48V 2000W)
These rectifiers are Constant voltage, constant current, constant power and feature an internal "reverse current diode" (ask me how i know :-[ )
max current of the flatpack S is 1800/48 = 37.5 Amps when below 48 Volts and 1800 Watts above 48 Volts (sadly no overcurrent possibility as with the mean well RSP2000)
max current of the Eltek Flatpack 2 HE is 2000/48 = 41.7 Amps when output is below 48 Volts
All rectifiers have been reprogrammed to have a default output voltage of 57.0 Volts (factory default is 53.5 Volts) with each 2 in series a total output voltage of 114 Volts which is around 90% SOC for the Zero. (follow how the reprogramming was done in the following thread on endless-sphere : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139 (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139) )
The flatpack 2 HE rectifiers can be sourced from eBay between 100 and 200 euro's each. Unfortunately the much smaller and lighter flatpack S cannot but maybe in due time.
The charger setup consists of :
* type 2 mennekes plug for 32Amps (standard in europe for 3 phase 400 VAC, each phase-neutral 230 VAC) with a 680 Ohm resistor between PP and PE to ask for 20A charging power and a 880 Ohm resistor and diode between CP and PE to indicate "ready for charging". Reference : http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13357-mennekes-type-2-plug-officially-not-vectrix (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13357-mennekes-type-2-plug-officially-not-vectrix)
* 5G1.5mm2 PUR cable to carry the 3 phase voltage to the rectifiers and onboard charger lead
* Lead for onboard charger (1300 Watt) on phase 1 (this also takes care of engaging the contactor)
* the Flatpack S on phase 2 (1800 Watt)
* the first Flatpack2 HE on phase 3 (2000 Watt)
* the second Flatpack2 HE on phase 1 (2000 Watt)
* the third Flatpack2 HE on phase 2 (2000 Watt)
* 10mm2 (8 AWG) cables to the anderson connector, these are highly flexible amplifier power leads commonly found in any Car-HIFI store
* Anderson SBS75X-BRN connector for the fast charging port on the Zero.
All the rectifiers (and onboard charger) are spread as evenly as possible on each of the three phases (L1 = 3300 Watt, L2 = 3800 Watt, L3 = 2000 Watt)
It (just) fits into a simple tankbag to easily take it on longer trips.
I've also set it up so I can take either of the 2 sets to reduce weight (at the expense of less charging power)
I have to do some more testing from lower SOC, that would theoretically increase the amps above the stated 83 Amps, at 0% SOC the voltage is around 96 Volts where the rectifiers can deliver their maximum current of 37,5 and 41,7 amps. Together with the 12A onboard charger this would deliver 91 Amps. And that's pretty close to the charge fuse of 100A. I hope i don't blow that one :P
It is by no means a waterproof setup because the rectifiers are air-cooled by fans but i don't ride in the rain anyway.
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Tried my new homemade supercharger yesterday. (Wintertime is tinkering time 8) )
Managed to charge with 83 ! Amps from 52% to 90% in under 30 minutes ;D
For my first attempt at a fast-charger see : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.msg24310#msg24310 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3949.msg24310#msg24310)
Very nice! I remember that post, very inspiring in the first place.
My Homemade 'supercharger' consists of 2 sets of Eltek Flatpack rectifiers.
The first set is a Flatpack S charger (48 Volts 1800 Watts) and a Eltek flatpack 2 HE rectifier (48V 2000W)
The second set are 2 pcs Eltek flatpack 2 HE rectifiers (48V 2000W)
These rectifiers are Constant voltage, constant current, constant power and feature an internal "reverse current diode" (ask me how i know :-[ )
Well, I imagine that others who have built chargers know, but it sounds like you accidentally ruined a unit because of a transient or something. Is it a regular risk?
max current of the flatpack S is 1800/48 = 37.5 Amps when below 48 Volts and 1800 Watts above 48 Volts (sadly no overcurrent possibility as with the mean well RSP2000)
max current of the Eltek Flatpack 2 HE is 2000/48 = 41.7 Amps when output is below 48 Volts
All rectifiers have been reprogrammed to have a default output voltage of 57.0 Volts (factory default is 53.5 Volts) with each 2 in series a total output voltage of 114 Volts which is around 90% SOC for the Zero. (follow how the reprogramming was done in the following thread on endless-sphere : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139 )
The flatpack 2 HE rectifiers can be sourced from eBay between 100 and 200 euro's each. Unfortunately the much smaller and lighter flatpack S cannot but maybe in due time.
It looks like the supply at that price is relatively thin, and these are mostly sold at full price. :-/
The charger setup consists of :
* type 2 mennekes plug for 32Amps (standard in europe for 3 phase 400 VAC, each phase-neutral 230 VAC) with a 680 Ohm resistor between PP and PE to ask for 20A charging power and a 880 Ohm resistor and diode between CP and PE to indicate "ready for charging". Reference : http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13357-mennekes-type-2-plug-officially-not-vectrix (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13357-mennekes-type-2-plug-officially-not-vectrix)
* 5G1.5mm2 PUR cable to carry the 3 phase voltage to the rectifiers and onboard charger lead
* Lead for onboard charger (1300 Watt) on phase 1 (this also takes care of engaging the contactor)
* the Flatpack S on phase 2 (1800 Watt)
* the first Flatpack2 HE on phase 3 (2000 Watt)
* the second Flatpack2 HE on phase 1 (2000 Watt)
* the third Flatpack2 HE on phase 2 (2000 Watt)
* 10mm2 (8 AWG) cables to the anderson connector, these are highly flexible amplifier power leads commonly found in any Car-HIFI store
* Anderson SBS75X-BRN connector for the fast charging port on the Zero.
All the rectifiers (and onboard charger) are spread as evenly as possible on each of the three phases (L1 = 3300 Watt, L2 = 3800 Watt, L3 = 2000 Watt)
It (just) fits into a simple tankbag to easily take it on longer trips.
I've also set it up so I can take either of the 2 sets to reduce weight (at the expense of less charging power)
That's really attractive; have you tried putting them in the PowerTank area? What do they weigh?
Also, thanks for the basic bill of materials. It sounds like someone could reproduce this for... $1500 USD? Guessing here.
I have to do some more testing from lower SOC, that would theoretically increase the amps above the stated 83 Amps, at 0% SOC the voltage is around 96 Volts where the rectifiers can deliver their maximum current of 37,5 and 41,7 amps. Together with the 12A onboard charger this would deliver 91 Amps. And that's pretty close to the charge fuse of 100A. I hope i don't blow that one :P
It sounds like from the SuperCharger testing story that ~80A is what you can rely on for a long charge. Be careful, because they've implied that Zero only lets you replace the entire circuit rather than the fuse.
It is by no means a waterproof setup because the rectifiers are air-cooled by fans but i don't ride in the rain anyway.
How hot would you say the charging pack gets at full power? Do you feel like the fans are overkill if it's not hot out? (I say this having noticed that the Elcon doesn't seem to need much cooling until it's over 85F out.)
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Well, I imagine that others who have built chargers know, but it sounds like you accidentally ruined a unit because of a transient or something. Is it a regular risk?
Fortunately not, I connected a test setup of 4 12V 12Ah batteries the reverse way to the flatpack rectifier. It melted the contacts when i put the wire into the contact but the diode in the flatpack still works. Very resilient stuff. (note to self, always use colour coded wires for + and - ??? )
So no transient, but my own stupid mistake.
It looks like the supply at that price is relatively thin, and these are mostly sold at full price. :-/
Just keep looking, they do come regularly at that price, my first was at 47 GBP, the second at 135 USD and the third at 71 GBP. Just make an eBay search for "Eltek Flatpack2" and you'll be notified of new auctions.
That's really attractive; have you tried putting them in the PowerTank area? What do they weigh?
Also, thanks for the basic bill of materials. It sounds like someone could reproduce this for... $1500 USD? Guessing here.
I have not (yet) tried them in the power tank area. I could try but I won't put them there. Mainly because i need the 'frunk' for storing my mandatory (by the insurance company) motorcycle lock and the Type 2 mennekes connector. Secondly because the power tank area is not weatherproofed, some water could get in there and ruin the fast chargers and lastly because i only need the 'supercharger' for longer trips. my daily commute is only 60 km (40 miles)
The whole package of rectifiers is 34 cm long x 17 cm high x 11 cm wide. Each flatpack2 rectifier weighs 2 kg. the flatpack S only weighs 0,85 kg The whole package (including connectors and tank bag) weighs only 8.5 kg.
The other parts beside the rectifiers are only 125 euro's (75 for the mennekes connector and about 50 euro's for the cabling and anderson connector). add 4 (or 2 !) rectifiers at 150 euro's and it's roughly
750 euro's in parts, add a few hours of labour.
A 2 rectifier setup would cut the cost considerably (to about 425 euro's in parts) but would also cut the charge power to 5.3 kW (2+2+1.3 for the onboard charger)
It sounds like from the SuperCharger testing story that ~80A is what you can rely on for a long charge. Be careful, because they've implied that Zero only lets you replace the entire circuit rather than the fuse.
I know, but if it does blow I would take a attempt at replacing the fuse, my labour costs are much lower that zero's 8)
How hot would you say the charging pack gets at full power? Do you feel like the fans are overkill if it's not hot out? (I say this having noticed that the Elcon doesn't seem to need much cooling until it's over 85F out.)
I've added another picture of a close up of the LCD display i made using an arduino and a can-bus transceiver, It communicates with the rectifier and extracts, output current, output voltage, input voltage, input temperature and output temperature.
The LCD can be 'switched' to each of the 4 rectifiers by means of a smell connector. Because the can-bus voltage is relative to the '-' output it cannot be shared.
The temperature (shown here at 40 deg celsius) is about what they get on the outside at an outside temperature of 10 deg celsius. The fans are temperature controlled. When idle you can't even hear them turn. When more power is asked they turn faster.
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Well I haven't got a clue about any of the tech stuff you chaps just said, but I'm so glad there's people like you trying to find a solution to quick charging, not just for you ,but sharing it with people like me,the masses........Respect !
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Thanks for the responses, remmie! That is much better than I expected, all around. I'll be very glad to have the SuperCharger, but a Type 2 DIY solution under $1000 is probably suitable for a number of people.
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Thanks for the responses, remmie! That is much better than I expected, all around. I'll be very glad to have the SuperCharger, but a Type 2 DIY solution under $1000 is probably suitable for a number of people.
I Agree, i think the Diginow charger, is a great solution. It has a much higher charge rate (12 kW), is weatherproof, fits directly where the power tank is, has adjustable charge rates for lower power charge stations and perfect for those who need supercharging regularly. My solution is more for the DIY crowd, and for those who need supercharging only a few times a year.
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All rectifiers have been reprogrammed to have a default output voltage of 57.0 Volts (factory default is 53.5 Volts) with each 2 in series a total output voltage of 114 Volts which is around 90% SOC for the Zero. (follow how the reprogramming was done in the following thread on endless-sphere : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139 (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139) )
Very nicely done! The Flatpack S is amazingly small; a set of four (7.2 kW) would be about 3" x 6" x 9".
My main concern for these rectifiers was the setup for voltages above 53V .. very encouraging to see that they can be permanently reconfigured.
In the US most of our EVSEs are limited to 208/240V single-phase 32A; in most cases we would need to connect each pair of rectifiers to a separate EVSE. However, in the US the EVSE provides the cable.
Ripperton / evtricity have replaced the charge fuse (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=507362&postcount=25). It doesn't look impossible..
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I Agree, i think the Diginow charger, is a great solution. It has a much higher charge rate (12 kW), is weatherproof, fits directly where the power tank is, has adjustable charge rates for lower power charge stations and perfect for those who need supercharging regularly. My solution is more for the DIY crowd, and for those who need supercharging only a few times a year.
The unlimited budget charging solution, at least in the US, might be a DigiNow Supercharger (up to 12 kW, ~100A DC?) connected to the controller, combined with either one pair of Flatpack S rectifiers + onboard (5 kW, 50A DC) or two pairs of Flatpack S rectifiers (7 kW, 70A DC).
You'd need two EVSEs, one high-amp that can supply 50+ amps AC to the Supercharger and another EVSE that could be 32A AC. The more common case, two 32A EVSEs, could still supply up to 15 kW AC (140A DC).
This would be a slightly > 1C charge rate for the largest 2016 five-brick bike, ~141 Ah .. or right at 1C charge rate for a six brick bike, ~170 Ah.
It would also be close to the charge rate used by Terry Hershner for the Iron Butt challenge (http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2015-Streamliner-pages/2015-Terry-Streamliner-history-p86.html) - 1000 miles in 24 hours. He used 9 Elcon 2.5 kW chargers - 22.5 kW, 135 pounds - and charged from up to 4 J1772 EVSEs.
The Supercharger (20-30 pounds?) and Eltek rectifiers (4 pounds per pair) are much lighter and much more compact. Terry's charger system is more flexible in the real world - able to still charge very quickly even at EVSEs that are 208V and < 30A - but this could be configured to scale similarly.
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My solution is more for the DIY crowd, and for those who need supercharging only a few times a year
Yeah I agree with that point,
I can't affort a 3000$ supercharger since I will use it only once a week!
I'd rather pay a 1000$ DIY solution for that purpose!
But since i'm not comfortable with doing it by myself I wonder if some of you guys would sell a DIY solution ready to use?
remmie, since I'm living in France your mennekes solution is what I'm looking for, but as it was said, 80A might blow a fuse inside the circuit...
maybe a little lower would be perfect!
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At lower SOC the charge current is definitely higher, at 13% the charge current showed as 89 amps and a charge time of only 51 minutes ;D
I have charged at those levels twice now for about 45 minutes each.
So it looks like the charge fuse holds (it should as it is rated for 100 amps)
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Well I haven't got a clue about any of the tech stuff you chaps just said, but I'm so glad there's people like you trying to find a solution to quick charging, not just for you ,but sharing it with people like me,the masses........Respect !
You aren't the only one.
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looking for something similar not type2 but 16 A CEE. Anyone has a solution for this?
Regards, Andreas
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I've always viewed charging as a two pronged effort. The first is to produce the DC amperage required at any point in the desired charge cycle. The second is to define and execute that cycle.
I assume either the main or the BMS boards tell the on board charger what to output via the CAN bus. Have you folks reversed this communication and are using it to regulate supplied current to the battery module? If not, how are you managing the charge taper when you get near full?
Thanks
Bill
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Now on ebay.
Flatpack 2HE rectifiers of 3000 W instead of 2000 W. The guy even has 2 available. And the price at 110 euros each is quite good.
That would make a nice 6 kW charger (7.3 kW if you add the onboard charger)
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Eltek-Flatpack2-48-3000-HE-53-5V-56-1A-Rectifier-241119-105-/172303254072?hash=item281e130238:g:Jv4AAOSwU-pXraDk (http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Eltek-Flatpack2-48-3000-HE-53-5V-56-1A-Rectifier-241119-105-/172303254072?hash=item281e130238:g:Jv4AAOSwU-pXraDk)
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Hmmm... right round the corner from me too. I'd be tempted if I actually had a Zero. I'm very likely to get one soon, but still trying to work out if the FXS or SR is right for me.
Electronics and microcontrollers is a bit of a hobby for me so building a charger definitely sounds interesting. The cost of a screw up (i.e. a damaged battery) could be high though.
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Well lets see, bought them, know the guy from the dieselbike world ;D
They'r rather light compared to my 1kw quiq charger. ;D
still need to get the level 2 chargestations to "open the gates". >:(
Any one have hands on experiences programming these "superchargers" to 56-57v a piece? :-X
any one have a link to the complete anderson powerpoles sbs 75x needed to connect the darn thing to the bike?, not only the housing!
any one knowing what the two smaller connectors are for on the anderson's
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Any one have hands on experiences programming these "superchargers" to 56-57v a piece? :-X
I think you can find it here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71139&start=75
Search for posts of user Remmie1972
It seems possible to reprogram permanently the Flatpacks to 57V.
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I'm wondering how many amps are being pulled on the primary 230V side when you put two of these Flatpacks in series and configured to max current. The datasheet says 11.6Amps at full load, but how does this work when you put two of them in series? Since the output current stays the same when putting two in series.. I'm confused a bit here :-\
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@remmie: Cool project ;)
I'd like to ease into this to DIY-'supercharge' my DSR on the go, so I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept. The power supply's i found on the net have edge connectors for being inserted into PSU blocks in telco server rooms, are these the ones you used? And am I right in thinking that the sensing pins need nothing but a resistor and/or a diode to be told to deliver the 20 amps?
My plan is to build a modular system where I can choose to slow-charge @ home, powertank on level 1 chargers, and powertank (4kW) with 4kW DIY charger on-the-go, in a sort of pluggable way so I can use Schuko, J1772 and Mennekes for charging...
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I'm wondering how many amps are being pulled on the primary 230V side when you put two of these Flatpacks in series and configured to max current. The datasheet says 11.6Amps at full load, but how does this work when you put two of them in series? Since the output current stays the same when putting two in series.. I'm confused a bit here :-\
When calculating currents and volts from primary to secondary side it is easier to use wattage (power). Power out is power in times the efficiency in percentages.
if the output is at maximum current they deliver 2000 Watts. With an efficiency of 95% they draw 2000/0.95 = 2100 Watts from the mains EACH. 2 flatpacks in series is 2x 2100 Watt which equals 4200 Watt.
If the voltage is 230 Volt then the total current is 18.3 Amps (4200W/230V).
18.3 amps is more than 16 A (which is the normal rated current of the circuit breaker) BUT a circuit breaker has a characteristic which allows for 1.13 times the nominal current to be supplied for 3600 seconds (1 hour) before it trips. 1.13 times 16 Amps = a little over 18 amps so it is possible to use 2 flatpacks in series on 1 230 Volt outlet but only barely.
If you have just 2 flatpacks it is better is to use the three phase system (mennekes connector) and put the onboard charger on phase 1, the first flatpack on phase 2 and the second flatpack on phase 3. The onboard charger makes sure the contactor is activated. This way the currents are 6, 9 and 9 amps for the 3 phases.
If you have 4 flatpacks (for 80 amps output to the zero) it becomes more difficult on a three phase system. a 11 kW charging station COULD disconnect the supply after a few minutes (I've had that happen a few times. A 22 kW charging station should pose no problems as it has 32Amps output capabilities.
The stated 11.6 amps at full load but also at minimum input voltage !!
2100 Watts divided by 11.6 amps = 180 Volts.
So at 180 Volts input the flatpack draws 11.6 amps at full load.
But at 230 Volts input the flatpack draws 9.1 Amps at full load