ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: LiveandLetDrive on March 27, 2016, 07:30:11 AM
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Having already bought Zero's Y-cable for fast-charging back in 2013, spending another $250 when I lost it was just unpalatable! Now that I'm building my two Quiq chargers and J1772 adapter into my FX's Givi top box, it was time to go the DIY route. Turns out, the parts from Anderson added up to a mere ~$15! Roughly $3 per housing (x3) and a bit over $1 per pin (x6). I bought both 6AWG and smaller 10AWG pins and ended up using 12AWG speaker wire which I already had around. I would've gone large but there was no pin that could hold large wire doubled-up (maybe 10AWG in the 6AWG pin but no larger). Using the two-component speaker wire also negated any need for a wire loom/wrap. I also used one cable clamp but with the zip ties and heatshrink I think it's not strictly necessary. Lastly, I already had the anvil-crimper from making welding cable battery cables for a car. I highly recommend it, but soldering's also an option. My ratchet crimper could barely dent the pins! I'll post about the charging top box when there's something to show. Still figuring out how I want to pass the cable out, waterproof or otherwise.
One problem before I can test it, they seem to be keyed differently, see last image. What's that about?! I'll just dremel it off if there's not some reason not to.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/LiveandLetDrive/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2768_zpsxywuolsj.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/LiveandLetDrive/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2766_zpsg82wqbxd.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/LiveandLetDrive/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2767_zpsnc5pw1k8.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/LiveandLetDrive/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2769_zpsixe8xzo6.jpg)
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LOL you did the same thing I did and got the BLACK connector vs the BROWN one ... You could order two more brown ones and use them if you wanted.
All of them I think are keyed differently. I simply shaved off the black connector keys with a razor when I built out my custom charging solution and wires. (see link in description for details)
I am not sure how many amps you plan to put through your 12awg wire but I went with two 10awg wires from my anderson connector to each terminal which connects to the controller in my case since I have a MY13 DSR(kinda) and the stock fuse can only handle 30 amps whereas the controller can do 90 if I recall correctly. [ I also soldered them instead of crimping ]
Let us know how well they work!
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Thanks for the detailed instructions. I think this has been supply-side limited: how many man-hours a specific person or two can put these together at the Zero plant or Harlan's precious attention span. Maybe they price the part that way, in fact.
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The sharp-eyed may notice I neglected to include the small-gauge "PowerMod" wire initially, which I've added now. Everything fits fine after dremeling off the keys. (Figured I was just ordering a color of housing, no mention on the Anderson site that different housings are keyed differently!)
However I'm still having trouble, with either or both chargers connected through the Y, it blinks the red error light twice, which means "low battery voltage." Any ideas? Is the PowerMod wire sending the full voltage back and perhaps the small (18AWG) wire is excessively resistive? As far as I can tell everything is wired perfectly and from the charger's perspective it should just be as if I'd added an extension. The batteries are nearly full but it does successfully start charging when I hook one charger up without the Y-cable...
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by "PowerMod" do you mean the black / white or brown / white small AWG wires coming from pins 3 & 4 on the SBS75X's ?
Are you sure they are in the right pins? (are you building this off an existing Y connector or from memory?)
I never made one of these so idk what other advice to give you but to check the pinouts. Maybe someone who has one of these can help deconstruct it for you or send Harlan an inquire as to the proper pinout ;)
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Yes, those are the ones I mean. I'm building it based on the pinout of the Quiq's cable, which only has one of these PowerMod pins connected (P2). So in each branch of the Y that goes to the chargers I have a socket in S2, which go to the P2 pin in the "trunk" of the Y which goes to the bike. I think I've discovered my problem: no socket-to-pin contact. I bought the "standard length 7.7mm" parts but it seems like the "Pre-mate" 8.5mm or 9.3mm must be what I need. Here goes another multi-week wait for an order from Anderson!
Also, the different keyings are due to the brown housings being intended for 96V use, vs. 80V use for the black ones. Don't think there's any actual difference between them, just to prevent accidents in a situation where both standards are in use.
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Here goes another multi-week wait for an order from Anderson!
Have you checked stock at Mouser (www.mouser.com (http://www.mouser.com))? They don't carry the whole Anderson line but they do stock some parts. I ordered some parts from them just before Brandon announced the DigiNow charger; not sure they're what you're looking for but they look very familiar...and I remember the 80V/96V dichotomy as well.
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Mouser does indeed carry the pins you need as I have bought them there myself before along with a lot of other pins / connectors / etc.
LiveandLetDrive
Remove the pins on both connectors and manually connect them to see if it works ... if you can that is. They shouldn't be hard to remove though.
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I realized that you should mentioned the cost of tools used to build this, which would considerably exceed $20. Like the crimper.
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I realized that you should mentioned the cost of tools used to build this, which would considerably exceed $20. Like the crimper.
You can get the crimper for $20... and its a tool for life.
Build two cables, sell one for $20 and get a free tool. lol
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I realized that you should mentioned the cost of tools used to build this, which would considerably exceed $20. Like the crimper.
You can get the crimper for $20... and its a tool for life.
Build two cables, sell one for $20 and get a free tool. lol
I am pretty sure for power cables that a $20 crimper is not safe.
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For what it's worth, I've had cables come loose from Anderson plugs I acquired on this forum and can attest that a senior EE did not approve of the crimp job and suggested using a proper tool. The risk of arcing at power is too high to leave to chance.
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Mouser does indeed carry the pins you need as I have bought them there myself before along with a lot of other pins / connectors / etc.
I'm having trouble finding them. Do you know the part number or what they are called? Do I only need 1 per Anderson connector? I'm trying to build a y cable even though I can't seem to get my QiuQ 96v chargers to work. Tried everything, in the bike, out of the bike (with adapter), with on board charger, batteries charged, half charged, etc,etc. The charger(s) cycle and charge for about 3 seconds, then the error starts flashing. Am l doing something wrong? Any help is greatly appreciated.
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When in doubt, solder it out. You'll need a big tip and a lot of heat, but it's the safest way to do this DIY.
Don't mess with big power contacts if you aren't absolutely sure you know what you're doing. I2R on 100A can get real.
(just a PSA, I'm sure you guys know what's up)
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When in doubt, solder it out.
Not to get too pedantic, but a (properly!) crimped joint is actually better than a soldered, or even a crimped AND soldered joint. Crimp connectors are carefully designed to allow just enough movement to prevent strand breakage due to fatigue; this is part of the "strain relief" design that every connector needs. Soldered connections constrain the wire too much, it will flex only at one point and will eventually break just where the strand emerges from the solder. Additionally, crimping a connector causes several small cold welded connections, and the resistance of the connection is actually lower than a soldered joint. NASA and the military do not allow soldering crimp connectors.
Realistically, we aren't building for NASA or even making our own airplanes, so soldering them is probably perfectly adequate. Just be aware that a quality crimping tool might be a good investment, and might prevent a breakdown on the road someday.
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I realized that you should mentioned the cost of tools used to build this, which would considerably exceed $20. Like the crimper.
You can get the crimper for $20... and its a tool for life.
Build two cables, sell one for $20 and get a free tool. lol
I am pretty sure for power cables that a $20 crimper is not safe.
http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI (http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI)
not a "normal" pliers style crimper... but $20.
people over-complicate things sometimes.
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Anderson's website specifies some things about crimping in the Assembly Instructions (http://www.andersonpower.com/_global-assets/downloads/pdf/1s6417.pdf) and Crimp Specifications (http://www.andersonpower.com/_global-assets/downloads/pdf/1s6494.pdf) PDFs:
SBS-75X product page (http://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/sbs/sbs-75x.aspx)
The specs recommend a $200 crimp tool (1309G4 (http://www.newark.com/anderson-power-products/1309g4/crimp-tool/dp/27C5379)) that is Anderson-branded. I'd like to hear a professional recommend a cheaper alternative, rather than "a $20 crimper will do" when I've literally seen a lead pop out of my Elcon charge connector.
I happen to love a phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing badly", but when it comes to power cables that can melt things very badly when arcing, I'm going to spend time making sure it won't ever fail that way. If you feel that's pedantic, I understand, but I want to make sure there's original information here to make a decision.
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$200 is actually pretty reasonable for a well-designed crimp tool. They generally have precision carbide anvils and some pretty low-tolerance ratcheting mechanisms to guarantee exactly the right amount of crimping force will be applied simultaneously to each of the anvils. Many of the mil-spec ones are upwards of $1000. If that seems too pricey for a tool you'll use once, maybe a few of us could go in for a single tool and mail it around when we need it.
Personally, I don't think it's pedantic at all, there's a lot of science in some seemingly simple stuff, and it needs to be right for maximum performance. I'm sure some people on this forum would disagree, however, and I was just apologizing to them up front.
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$200 is actually pretty reasonable for a well-designed crimp tool. They generally have precision carbide anvils and some pretty low-tolerance ratcheting mechanisms to guarantee exactly the right amount of crimping force will be applied simultaneously to each of the anvils. Many of the mil-spec ones are upwards of $1000. If that seems too pricey for a tool you'll use once, maybe a few of us could go in for a single tool and mail it around when we need it.
Personally, I don't think it's pedantic at all, there's a lot of science in some seemingly simple stuff, and it needs to be right for maximum performance. I'm sure some people on this forum would disagree, however, and I was just apologizing to them up front.
Yeah, $200 plus the part costs for the components is still cheaper than OEM retail for a single splitter, and gives more flexibility. I also expected and found $600-$1000 crimp tools after I saw the look that Senior EE / EV builder gave to my embarrassingly detached Anderson plug. [my attitude comes from working on power distribution/electronics for US Navy nuclear reactors, BTW]
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Are these the right pins? I am familiar with several types of Anderson connectors but none I've dealt with had these smaller pins, just the heavy lugs.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Anderson-Power-Products%2f110G9%2f&qs=%2fha2pyFaduj7D5nNeDONP%2f2P2o8xqrtZM8TWx9ZPRzFTp18UBCMaFA%3d%3d (http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Anderson-Power-Products%2f110G9%2f&qs=%2fha2pyFaduj7D5nNeDONP%2f2P2o8xqrtZM8TWx9ZPRzFTp18UBCMaFA%3d%3d)
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No they are to reinforce the plastic housing.
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When in doubt, solder it out.
Not to get too pedantic, but a (properly!) crimped joint is actually better than a soldered, or even a crimped AND soldered joint. Crimp connectors are carefully designed to allow just enough movement to prevent strand breakage due to fatigue; this is part of the "strain relief" design that every connector needs. Soldered connections constrain the wire too much, it will flex only at one point and will eventually break just where the strand emerges from the solder. Additionally, crimping a connector causes several small cold welded connections, and the resistance of the connection is actually lower than a soldered joint. NASA and the military do not allow soldering crimp connectors.
Realistically, we aren't building for NASA or even making our own airplanes, so soldering them is probably perfectly adequate. Just be aware that a quality crimping tool might be a good investment, and might prevent a breakdown on the road someday.
Just throwing some experience in..
While this is 100% true and any aircraft mechanic, or automotive engineer will agree.. the problem is that we are not using carefully designed quality crimp connectors. They will never fold over into the wire and compact it until its almost fused into a single part.
There are 2 connections on every wire connector.
Electrical connection
Mechanical connection.
Electrical connection:
If you were to measure the electrical connection carefully before and after soldering, you would see an improvement. Most of the time it doesnt matter, but when you're talking 40+ amps, its a measurable drop. So soldering does help this... however it is NOT a replacement or even a helper for the mechanical connection.
Mechanical connection:
A proper mechanical connection means you can pull the wire and it will break before it comes out. The power of the crimp should exceed the tensile strength of the copper wire. If its not, you're doing it wrong.
That said, the copper wire will break if you solder it, unless there is strain relief.
For most DIY home connectors there is strain relief, in the form of two crimps. if you only solder the first crimp, the one closest to the connector, the second can act as a strain relief. You will never see vibration/flex induced failure as long as you dont solder into or past the 2nd crimp.
but what if there are no second crimps? then you add an additional strain relief. a simple example would be slipping a piece of flexible plastic tubing over the wire and crimp and heatshrinking it in place. If the crimp is on a connector pin, then place the strain relief on all the wires after the connector, and include the connector in the heatshrink.
None of this is hard, but it does require some thought. I have been making custom electrical devices for 13+ years now for other forum/hobbists, and I've never had a wire failure from vibration... and most of my devices and harnesses are on sportsbikes and drag cars... things with large vibration and shock hits... and street cars that see a good bit of miles.
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Are these the right pins?
Firepower's right, that's just a pin to lock the connector bodies together.
Not sure exactly which connector is in use, but it's probably the PP75, so the contacts are shown on page 2 of this pdf: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/22/ds-pp75-771539.pdf (http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/22/ds-pp75-771539.pdf)
Notice that there are two different contacts, the regular length and the ground length, which is 2mm longer. That's to make sure the ground connection is made first, which is generally the safest way to connect high-power interfaces.
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Unless a different bike than mine uses PP75 connectors, SBS75X is what you want, which only has two power pins and they're only in one length. The small "Powermod" or auxiliary pins come in different lengths, hence my consternation,
I generally agree about crimper quality however this little beauty is a different story. It's NOT idiot-proof and takes some practice (buy extra pins, they're cheap!) but with some hammer finesse I think they can provide a very good crimp on large terminals. For the small stuff I was using a ratcheting crimper but being two-sided (rather than having three or more jaws) it flattens the crimp out which has caused me trouble sliding the small pins into the housing. I'm going to solder the small stuff once I get my longer pins as they aren't high-current anyway. http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI (http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI)
All the part numbers you need are here, which you can translate to Newark, Mouser, or the Anderson store if you want. Direct from Anderson is mostly cheapest but possibly slower. See page 3 for the SBS75X auxiliary pins. http://www.andersonpower.com/_global-assets/downloads/pdf/ds-sbs.pdf (http://www.andersonpower.com/_global-assets/downloads/pdf/ds-sbs.pdf) The pins and sockets come sized for various wire gauges. For example: PN: PM16P12A30 Part: POWERMOD PIN 12 AWG PRE-MATE 9.3MM
I'll update when I've received the longer pins and rebuilt!
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I generally agree about crimper quality however this little beauty is a different story. It's NOT idiot-proof and takes some practice (buy extra pins, they're cheap!) but with some hammer finesse I think they can provide a very good crimp on large terminals. For the small stuff I was using a ratcheting crimper but being two-sided (rather than having three or more jaws) it flattens the crimp out which has caused me trouble sliding the small pins into the housing. I'm going to solder the small stuff once I get my longer pins as they aren't high-current anyway. http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI (http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-770122-Lug-Crimper/dp/B003V8BEUI)
You have to be careful not to overdo it, but that crimper also works great in the shop press. I use the small press with it in in there, and its perfect everytime.
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Good idea, I'm without a press at the moment but my big vice might have the reach.
Rebuilt the Y today but didn't test due to the power being out for going on 24hrs. Ah, mountain living. Good thing I bought two generators to charge the Zero on overnight camping trips!
What a difference 2mm makes, hope this does the trick:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/LiveandLetDrive/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2802_zpshxkb5ut6.jpg)