ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on February 29, 2016, 01:34:29 PM
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To start this topic, I've pulled a post Terry made in the thread on the new Diginow fast charger:
Hopefully aerodynamics will improve soon which will significantly increase that. or what i'm hoping is a commercially available bolt on sporty looking fairing will be available to double range at 75-80 mph. I know in Texas the speed limit is85 mph in some places. You would more than double range at those speeds and your motor would never get hot because it only has to put out half the power. And your rear tire would last 25,000 miles. Mine did.
In may last year I went over 300 miles on a single charge with 27 kWh onboard riding the interstate in the fast lane at speeds often over 70-75 mph. This was on the Vetter streamlined 2012 Zero.
So that is about 100 miles at 70-75 mph per 9 kwh of battery given good streamlining
Without streamlining it's between a third and half that range.
Adding double the battery just means a lot more cost, a lot more weight, a lot more space (where do you put it all?) and a lot more onboard charging capacity, and you need to source that amount of power at each charging stop.
Isn't it just easier to have an aerodynamic fairing? it fixes all those 5 issues all at once!
A stock 5 brick Zero with a Vetter fairing and a Hollywood Electrics Elcon kit could cross the country in less than 3 days.
That's 150 miles per charge at highway speeds, and 2 hours of charging.
2 hours riding at 75 mph, 2 hours charging from a standard J plug.
2500 miles to cross the US at 150 miles every 4 hours and that's about 67 hours. Throw in some sleep and easily in less than 4 days.
Without aerodynamics to do it in 67 hours
You would need 30 kWh of battery on the bike, bringing the weight to over 600 pounds for the bike alone.
This is just to get through west texas, Arizona and New Mexico where locations with high power electricity can be 150 miles apart. Otherwise you could do it with less battery, but would spend a lot of time charging at 110v which would make some stops 8 hours or more. To charge 30 kWh in 2 hours, you will need 15 kW of charging. That would be 6 Elcons. Your bike already weighs over 600 pounds and now you need another 100 pounds in chargers. And then where do you source 15 kW? I know how because I've done it, but it's a pain and requires another 100 pounds of thick AWG 14-50 extension cords that can weigh 50 pounds themselves to stretch 100 feet at RV parks that stagger 50 amp sites with 30 amp sites. And some places you wont be able to do that at all. You will only be able to get 6 kW from a public Jplug because the RV park is full or only has 30 amp outlets left. In that case to charge 30 kWh at 6 kW it will take you 5 hours. About the best you can hope for is 5-6 days I think.
Even with all the battery and charging you will still be twice as slow as a bike that has half the coefficient of drag. Plus you will weigh twice as much and the bike and chargers and cables will probably also double the cost.
I can't repeat it enough. More battery is good. Charging fast is better, but aerodynamics make logical sense in every way first.
Yet I can't deny that marketing shows people are scared to look different. Everyone wants to look the same as everyone else because they are afraid their friends will make fun of them. When you are riding the bike down the road all you see is the road, so it doesn't matter if the bike looked like spongebob with his squarepants.
Changing perception takes time. When the Ford Taurus came out in 1986 everyone hated how it looked. (it was so strange looking then they used it as the police cars in the movie Robocop) Now almost every car made is more aerodynamic than the Taurus was.
http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/Specials/RoboCopMovie/RoboCop2.jpg
Point is you can't say I will never like the way that looks. All you can say is I've been programmed not to like the way that looks now, but that could easily change.
I'm not saying a full Vetter streamliner is for everyone, but i'd like to see something halfway between that and the looks of sportbikes like the Hayabusa.
I love Zero but I always laugh at their motto. "Zero Motorcycles is unencumbered by conventional thinking about how we design, manufacture and sell high performance electric motorcycles" There is a typo there.
What they meant to say is "Zero Motorcycles is VERY encumbered by conventional thinking about how we design our motorcycles to look like everyone else's motorcycles on the market"
And rightfully so, because otherwise no one would buy them. The problem isn't that the science isn't there to do anything we want today easily.
The problem is for most of us, science is much less important than our fear of looking different. That our ego might be hurt by someone making fun of how our bike looks. Maybe one day that will change and people won't fear being different if it makes scientific sense to do so. One day a low cost aerodynamic motorcycle can come out of the closet without fear of ridicule by haters.
One day we can only hope. Until then, we must "charge on" as fast as we can (pun intended)
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5040.msg39267#msg39267 (http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/Specials/RoboCopMovie/RoboCop2.jpg)
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I would argue that people who are willing to buy an electric motorcycle don't mind being a little different from the crowd. That's until electric motorcycles become the crowd and ICE bikes are relegated to the previous generation of propulsion. It may take some time...
By all means create a fairing that is beautiful and appeals to the masses, but most importantly, just create something that will provide weather protection and increase our range.
If the marketing men do their research properly, I think they'll find that their market consists of well educated and thoughtful people who do their research. People who put pleasure and practicality over posing.
If you are commuting on a motorcycle, rather than a scooter, the chances are that your commute includes some fast roads.
It's such a no-brainer that I'm surprised they haven't produced a decent fairing yet.
If you agree with the subject of this topic, Terry's comments, or mine, do at least post a +1 here please. If not, then please tell us why.
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It's also a matter of safety. On the highway portion of my commute with my Vectrix I was riding as usual when a vehicle ahead of me ran over some chunky debris that flew-up and hit the front of my side fairing. Made a big dent in the hard plastic. I don't think I was even going full speed, probably mid-fifties mph. If I was on a non-fairing motorcycle I would have had a big bruise (or worse) on my shin or knee even with bike pants on...
Not to mention the ride is so much more enjoyable with a fairing and screen when it's cold...
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+1 to that kocho!
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Definitely needs fairing option. Zero needs to do it right make sure it low drag and improve performance. They probably need to design a new frame with integrated mounting points that will suit faired and unfaired use.
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I don't think you will ever see a aerodynamic fairing from Zero in the foreseeable future. The cost of designing and building one is too high for them to stomach and motorcycles with large fairings are just not selling well right now. The hot models this year are "naked" bikes and the ADV-style.
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+1 but I can wait for a fully integrated touring bike.
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I don't think you will ever see a aerodynamic fairing from Zero in the foreseeable future. The cost of designing and building one is too high for them to stomach and motorcycles with large fairings are just not selling well right now. The hot models this year are "naked" bikes and the ADV-style.
As I said before in other threads, Vetter-Lite fairings would be really good. Fairings that function like Terry's Vetter fairing, but are palatable by Zero riders. Something, smaller and industrial designed.
Plastics are not that hard to design and manufacture. They don't have any moving parts and injection molding is fast. I imagine Zero is on the long road of trying to be profitable like Tesla is, so they would have to see a good return on investment to do it.
I'm sure the Engineers are trying to increase range and fairings are more practical than a larger physical size battery.
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> I would argue that people who are willing to buy an electric motorcycle don't mind being a little different from the crowd.
Well, the Zeros started selling well when they started looking like the gasoline motorcycles that sell well.
> As I said before in other threads, Vetter-Lite fairings would be really good. Fairings that function like Terry's Vetter fairing, but are palatable by Zero riders. Something, smaller and industrial designed.
How much smaller can you go and still get good aerodynamics? I think you really need a large bulge and taper behind the rider to get the benefit. You have to get the air you pushed aside, that wants to rush back, to propel you forward. I think Zero should employ an aerodynamicist to find out. Ideally someone like Tesla has, who can integrate the aesthetics with the streamlining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen
> I'm sure the Engineers are trying to increase range and fairings are more practical than a larger physical size battery.
Until range-at-speed is the quoted number, this doesn't help the argument for Zero spending money to improve aerodynamics. As long as low-speed range can be quoted, adding weight in the form of large aerodynamic fairing doesn't help. Aerodynamic helps at high speed. Craig Vetter always adds "at high speed" to his range and fuel efficiency claims. His Freedom Fairing aka Last Vetter Fairing is optimized for a 90 MPH windspeed (60 MPH with a 30 MPH headwind).
If you want aerodynamic, push for standardized range reporting in vehicles. Push for some kind of standard like "at 60 mph" or "at 100 kph" numbers only, tell people to ignore the lawyerly inflated versions of range that are found in most marketing materials, watch for those damn asterisks.
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Well, the Zeros started selling well when they started looking like the gasoline motorcycles that sell well.
bingo.
most buyers are looking for a motorcycle, and like this one that happens to be electric.. Think of all the Zeros sold from their "let everyone testride everything" policy.
they wouldnt even try it if it looked like a dorkmobile or freak.
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How much smaller can you go and still get good aerodynamics? I think you really need a large bulge and taper behind the rider to get the benefit.
+1
I already have a windscreen, and if I find a full fairing to replace it with, it's not going to be a partial or "3/4" fairing. Vetter's "last fairing" seems pretty much on the small side to me, for an upright riding position like our bikes give. Honestly, I don't understand why so many bikes (even racebikes) use fairings that mostly leave the rider hangin out in the breeze. Why streamline the bike and leave the rider out where he's going to create drag?
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How much smaller can you go and still get good aerodynamics? I think you really need a large bulge and taper behind the rider to get the benefit.
+1
I already have a windscreen, and if I find a full fairing to replace it with, it's not going to be a partial or "3/4" fairing. Vetter's "last fairing" seems pretty much on the small side to me, for an upright riding position like our bikes give. Honestly, I don't understand why so many bikes (even racebikes) use fairings that mostly leave the rider hangin out in the breeze. Why streamline the bike and leave the rider out where he's going to create drag?
while I cant speak for all bikes, I can say with sportbikes... they are not out in the air.
if you're looking through a windscreen, its already too high. air has momentum. it will continue up and make a "bubble" of flow larger than the windscreen itself.
so if you're riding a sportbike at speed correctly, you can feel the air smoothly going from the screen to helmet and taper down your back to the tiny tail.
if you're sitting upright on a sportbike at 50mph or higher, you should feel the air cupping you just enough to hold yourself up and neutral on the bike. no weight on wrists.
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Maybe these requests should be directed to one of the big windshield makers like Slipstreamer, rather than to Zero? They have the equipment and money to produce at least a full windshield that fits the Zero perfectly and works well, out of the box.
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I'd *love* to have a Vetter/Electric Terry style fairing, but I completely lack the ability to make all the bracketry and do the fitment.
I remember when the "soap bar" Taurus came out. Hell, I remember when plastic-fairing-ed bikes looked strange, like the GSXRs, Ninja 900 and the Honda VFRs back in the early '80s. Edit: I thought the '85 GSXR was the ugliest bike EVER, especially the rear-end.
Then I remember the opposite, when "naked bikes" became "a thing" again in 2005 or so.
Personally, I love the '50s-era dustbin racing fairings.
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I would love to see it be an option eventually, but not come standard for those who don't like it.
Give someone a choice:
Option #1: Here is a full fairing option and short tail for $2500 that will increase your range at 75 mph by double
Option #2: If they don't like how the fairing looks they can spend the $2500 on a power tank and get about 15 more miles range at 75 mph.
I think the choice on how to spend the money is pretty obvious except for people who have obsessive compulsive disorder and would physically suffer from anxiety if their bike looked different. The good news is if they have healthcare, anti anxiety medicine is pretty cheap and therapy could help them overcome it too. Although there are lots of motorcyclists that suffer from low self esteem and ego problems.
Loz from Gizmag explains this "ego issue" well about motorcyclists who feel they need loud pipes here:
https://youtu.be/o3DiAecsh_0?t=5m45s
Anyway, my point is if it looks like a high quality production fairing with a top quality paint job it shouldn't matter what the exact shape is. What ever helps it go the furthest on a charge is eventually what should win. People will eventually want what is best. First time someone sets a land speed record with a production Zero that anyone can buy for under $15k and everyone will want to look like that. I'm just saying let science dictate how it looks.
Nature evolved to get the job done best. The way fish, birds, sharks, dolphins or anything is shaped is the product of the best design to move through the air or water and maneuver the best they could. Let the best design be the one that lets it go through the air the easiest without having any drawbacks such as length. I think my old vetter tail was too long for most people to handle, and a few times when parking in motorcycle spots it would hang out over the curb. Not the end of the world, but perhaps not worth the extra 15% range to chop off 3 feet of it. So I think the tail should be shorter, but still offer 5 times the waterproof storage that a large Givi top box and side cases have. Somewhere around 250-500 liters of storage would be perfect.
I've ridden about 100,000 miles on Zero motorcycles now. About 50,000 without a fairing between the 2012 and 2015, and 50,000 with a full fairing on the 2012. And I wish the 2015 had a lightweight (not fiberglass but perhaps injection molded plastic) fairing just like I had on the 2012. I stored 6 kwh of battery and 24 kw of chargers under the nose, but you could also use it for storage of anything. Rain gear, sleeping bag, tent, pillow, warm clothes. I think aerodynamics and storage go hand in hand. As the bike can travel far distances, it becomes a perfect touring machine. Storing gear becomes a need. Ever seen people try to roadtrip on a R1, GSXR, CBR or Ninja? It can be done with dozens of bungee nets and it looks like at any time you will lose your whole load.
I'm just saying I think efficiency and practicality can both be had at the same time. But have it optional, so those who don't need to travel far and would rather show off their bike to solve their ego problems can have it the way they want, and those who are self confident and want to travel and see the world can travel and make new memories easier
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+1 Terry. Options are good. A decent looking marketable motorcycle as a base, and the options for more storage or an aero shell.
Also: this has some interesting stuff
http://electrek.co/2013/12/12/tesla-chief-designer-franz-von-holzhausen-on-bmws-i3-strange-ikea-like-the-2015-detroit-auto-show-mass-market-unveiling-and-more/ (http://electrek.co/2013/12/12/tesla-chief-designer-franz-von-holzhausen-on-bmws-i3-strange-ikea-like-the-2015-detroit-auto-show-mass-market-unveiling-and-more/)
I especially like this:
The Model S should be aerodynamic, without looking for it. And we succeeded.
The Model X is almost ready, now it comes to the last aerodynamic subtleties. Therefore, millimeter by millimeter to change without anyone noticing that we have ever changed anything. ...
Tesla has proven that you can have outstanding aerodynamics *and* high style. Zero needs to do that.
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Just in case you haven't been following it, Brian has done a lovely job with his new Parrabellum windshield:
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525.msg40155#msg40155
It looks like Parrabellum would be up for creating a new screen specifically for Zeros. Any thoughts on how we could provide them with a bike to work on and use for testing? It would have to be a long term loan, I imagine.
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Maybe this is something for aftermarket companies who focus on windscreens to build. It would be a lot cheaper for an aftermarket company to build something since they already have some of the expertise needed. If you think about the R&D needed if Zero did make something it would be insanely expensive. Yes there are a few people on this forum who would buy them but hard to say what the size of the market really is.
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...but hard to say what the size of the market really is.
I'd say that applies even moreso to the aftermarket. For Zero it would be supporting their brand, for the aftermarket mfrs it's only about market size, which probably isn't big enough to justify the expense.
I'm not holding my breath for either Zero or the "mainstream" aftermarket to do it. I think if it gets done, it'll get done by someone like Craig Vetter, who did it because he believed in it, rather than to make a bunch of money from it.
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I would agree with you Doug. And it was supposed to happen. But I'm not so sure now it will. If you don't know yet, read this article and he will explain. A deer hit him (not even the motorcycle, the 250 pound deer ran right into Craigs body while on the motorcycle) and I'm not sure if design plans are in his future. We will have to wait and see. Such a tragedy.
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2016/02/15/motorcycle-news/craig-vetter/ (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2016/02/15/motorcycle-news/craig-vetter/)
February 15, 2016
"The American Motorcyclist Association announced today that Craig Vetter is the recipient of the AMA Dud Perkins Lifetime Achievement Award for 2016. Vetter is most famous for the Windjammer line of fairings he created for Honda Gold Wings, and the like, in a time before motorcycle fairings were factory equipment – the 1970s. More recently, Vetter’s focused his attention on fuel mileage, and how to get the most of it. The proving grounds for his ideas and aerodynamic designs can be seen wherever a Vetter Fuel Mileage Challenge is hosted.
The annual award acknowledges the highest level of service to the AMA in any area of activity, and its recipients are individuals whose contributions are nationally recognized. Vetter, well-known for his many contributions to motorcycle design, has also distinguished himself for a lifetime of service to the AMA and the American Motorcycle Heritage Foundation."
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A deer hit him...Such a tragedy.
I was aware of that, and it's a great loss to our community. It was just shortly after I met Craig (and Mike Corbin) for the first and only time last 4th of July weekend; same weekend we met, Terry.
But I meant somebody LIKE Craig, who's in it because he's passionate and feels strongly that somebody needs to push the state of the art forward. There's just not enough money in it to attract commercial interest.
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Option #1: Here is a full fairing option and short tail for $2500 that will increase your range at 75 mph by double
Option #2: If they don't like how the fairing looks they can spend the $2500 on a power tank and get about 15 more miles range at 75 mph.
I'd like to see official numbers from Zero on the windscreen even. It should be pretty easy to test: give an engineer a bike for a day and a bit of equipment and he should be able to come back with numbers.
Option #1: here's a windscreen/fairing. It improves top speed by x, sustained top speed by y, range by z. Costs $m and adds n pounds. Oh, and it doesn't affect charge time, meaning your effective charge rate is higher.
Option #2: here's a power tank. It improves range by x. Costs $M, adds n pounds, increases charge times by o.
I think it'd be pretty clear what people's preferences were.
I'm really curious to see how many charge tanks Zero sells. Back in 2013 I created a poll asking about range vs charge speed (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3009.0;viewresults) - basically did people want more battery or higher-powered charging?
The results were pretty split - some people wanted battery, some people wanted faster charging - until you got to the Vetter special. The preference for a fairing bike was strongly in favor of improved charging, once you had "enough" range.
I didn't make this explicit at the time, but the options were based on the shipping Zero S, assuming that a battery brick could be swapped for a ~3 kW charging brick for the same cost. Thus you had:
- standard option, based on $16k 4 brick Zero S (or 3 brick + 1 charger brick)
- touring option, based on $20k 6 brick Zero S+ (or 5 brick + 1 charger, 4 brick + 2 charger)
- vetter fairing, as w/ touring but with a LVF (40% reduction in highway power requirements)
Ironically, the 2016 Zero S equipped with either a Power Tank or a Charge Tank is basically equivalent to the first two touring options today (131 miles with Power Tank, 108 miles with Charge Tank and 35 mph charging) .. but at $16-17k, not $20k!
Back in 2013, only 5 out of 19 posters preferred the largest battery but slowest-charging unfaired touring bike. Zero - and DigiNow - may have their hands full meeting demand.
Perhaps it's time to revisit the range vs charge vs aero survey again .. in a more structured way.
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New windsheild got posted by mr drake on instagram
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+1 promotech, definitely a good idea to do that survey again.
What I don't get is why people keep saying it's expensive to do aerodynamics. Sure, if you're starting from scratch, but why do that? Just base it on other fairings out there and even if it isn't optimal for a Zero it'll probably be 80% there and give at least 30% better economy at speed.
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New windsheild got posted by mr drake on instagram
Could you share that?
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(http://i.imgur.com/Y0RWQBf.png)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/)
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With a spoiler, that should make a difference to keep your head out of the wind.
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They call this "larger"... It looks tiny! Good for warm weather, but for commute and cold I'd want something that would cover a 6'4" rider properly without ducking ridiculously low.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/)
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They call this "larger"... It looks tiny! Good for warm weather, but for commute and cold I'd want something that would cover a 6'4" rider properly without ducking ridiculously low.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/)
you know that air gets thrown upward right? it has momentum.
If your windscreen is so huge that you see through it when sitting upright.. its too big.
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If your windscreen is so huge that you see through it when sitting upright.. its too big.
I don't know of any that are that big. Better rule: If your helmet is being buffeted by the wind, the screen is too small. In fact, if you can feel wind on any part of your body, you're causing drag.
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I am still in the larger battery camp because where I ride there are no public charging stations, not even Level 1 outlets.
Regarding windshields: not even BMW (with all of their engineers and access to a wind tunnel) can make good ones. I can't recall a single BMW model made during the past 20 years that had a windshield that their owners didn't say sucked and wanted to immediately replace with an after market windshield. Soon about 10 companies would make replacement windshields and good luck getting a consensus by owners on which one worked best. ::) Windshields are as tough to design as comfortable seats. ::) But that doesn't mean that Zero shouldn't give it a try. I hope they are successful. Any new Zero that I will buy will be getting a windshield and a rear luggage rack and top box before it leaves the dealership. ;)
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Anyone remember a show that used to be on TV called CHiPs? If the shows producers thought a large windshield didn't look good, I'm sure they would have made special ones a few inches shorter, even if the big ones were the ones the real highway patrol was using. And I don't think a single viewer stopped watching the show because the bikes had big windshields lol. I'm pretty sure they came high enough that you look just over them by a few inches.
I thought they sort of set the standard that a large windshield was both practical and cool. I don't know too many people that enjoy being hit in the neck with rain, bugs, sand on a windy day, and little pebbles thrown up from the tires of the cars ahead. Then again the Harley crowd seems to value how they look vs what seems to make logical sense. I don't know too many Harley riders that even wear full face helmets. I sort of place Zero riders in a slightly higher bracket of rational thinking and practicality vs just image. But who knows.
Let me see if I can dig up a picture of Ponch and Jon riding...
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I don't think a single viewer stopped watching the show because the bikes had big windshields lol.
wow! I didnt know people in the 70s judged shows based off of how the windshields of bikes looked!
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I am still in the larger battery camp because where I ride there are no public charging stations, not even Level 1 outlets.
Regarding windshields: not even BMW (with all of their engineers and access to a wind tunnel) can make good ones. I can't recall a single BMW model made during the past 20 years that had a windshield that their owners didn't say sucked and wanted to immediately replace with an after market windshield. Soon about 10 companies would make replacement windshields and good luck getting a consensus by owners on which one worked best. ::) Windshields are as tough to design as comfortable seats. ::) But that doesn't mean that Zero shouldn't give it a try. I hope they are successful. Any new Zero that I will buy will be getting a windshield and a rear luggage rack and top box before it leaves the dealership. ;)
Why not both?
I liked the factory windshield on my K75RT, it kept the wind above my head and I am not the shortest with 190cm.
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I don't think a single viewer stopped watching the show because the bikes had big windshields lol.
wow! I didnt know people in the 70s judged shows based off of how the windshields of bikes looked!
Yeah you didn't know that ;)
You might be right. Lots of people don't pay attention to how things look. I'm sure most people tuned into Baywatch because they liked the plot and acting. ;)
in all seriousness though, just making a point that a big curved windshield could help increase range and rider protection, and that whether people realized it or not, many of us watched a TV show and probably never even thought about how big the windshields were. Why? Because it looked just fine. No one was talking about it looking abnormal. So why are the windshields today so tiny?
I remember in 2013 talking to Ben Rich, who is on this forum, is a science educator and teacher, who must value logic and reason, and I remember him talking to Craig Vetter about how important it was that his bike looked cool to his peers first and function well second. So surely he can not be the only one that thinks this way. Since when did practical and efficient not look cool? How did it get this way? How do we fix it?
If the biggest Hollywood actors rode around Zero's with huge aerodynamic windshields or fairings designed for a low coefficient of drag instead of to conform to FIM racing rules do you think opinions would change?
If you took a picture of a naked streetbike, a supersport bike, and an aerodynamic streamlined motorcycle image and went back in time to philosophers and artists in the Reniassance, which image do you think they all would like best?
Exactly!
My point is it is probably racing and wanting to look like racers on TV that has changed the image of what we think looks best, when in reality, without outside influence, the shape that truly looks best to us naturally is the one that is most efficient.
So, Richard230 above says he is in the camp of wanting more battery vs charging, but I think what he really means is he wants more range. If that can be done with aerodynamics easier than trying to fit another 16 kWh on a bike to have 32 kWh total, I can promise it will be easier and less expensive, heavy, etc. Can you imagine a motorcycle with 32 kWh on it? To get 200 miles highway range you will need it. Or aerodynamics on a current 16 kWh bike could do the same 200 highway miles.
No one is going to mass produce an efficient fairing when lots of people don't want to look that way. It's just frustrating to me that people that own electric motorcycles don't want them to go as far as they can on a charge and there is so much difference in opinion. Maybe one day that will change.
Sorry for the rant. I just am close to this issue. I rode around on the Vetter motorcycle for 50,000 miles and not once did anyone say they didn't like how it looked. Yet I would hear Zero owners like Ben say they liked my bike but didn't want to look that way themselves. This is what was so confusing to me. Where did this worry and concern about how it looks come from? I just want the bikes to be as efficient as they can be. And the first thing would be to go down the highway using 80 watt hours per mile instead of 160.
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They call this "larger"... It looks tiny! Good for warm weather, but for commute and cold I'd want something that would cover a 6'4" rider properly without ducking ridiculously low.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BCa6WKjHEBu/)
This is an obvious improvement on their part, but has minimal risk (it's an MRA windscreen, again). My spoiler-enhanced version of the commuter windscreen is fairly effective, but longer windscreen dimensions test the limit of the mount. The spoiler install I did does wobble in the wind a bit even after I reinforced the mounting.
Also, I still crouch forward at highway speeds to get out of the airstream, which is not ergonomic.
For this reason, I'm glad I kept moving forward, with the Parabellum involved in my current iteration, but that means I'm doing more research about structural mounting points and positioning than average.
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I remember in 2013 talking to Ben Rich, who is on this forum, is a science educator and teacher, who must value logic and reason, and I remember him talking to Craig Vetter about how important it was that his bike looked cool to his peers first and function well second. So surely he can not be the only one that thinks this way. Since when did practical and efficient not look cool? How did it get this way? How do we fix it?
Everyone has their own preferences at any given time. What is practical for you may not be practical for me today, but may be practical tomorrow.
Aero treatments - whether large windshields, sportbike fairings, streamlined fairings, or full cabin enclosures - have a price. That price can be weight, cost, added bulk / length, tinkerer requirements, appearance, cross-wind susceptibility, lowered visual profile for the feet-forward bikes, or even the perception of any of the above.
A lightweight, full cabin enclosure would be more efficient than the open configuration of the LVF. Think Cedric Lynch's cabin bike (http://craigvetter.com/pages/Main_Design_Page/Pioneer%20designers/Pioneer%20FF%20Designers.html) .. or Monotracer, or Lit C1. Yes, they are more vulnerable to side winds. Yes, there are no production cabin bikes today (or production LVF). But .. the world isn't exactly beating down the door of the cabin bike manufacturers either. They erode part of what distinguishes a bike from a car.
And while 100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph is cool, wouldn't the 25 Wh/mile (@60 mph) for Lynch's cabin bike be cooler? That'd be 4x the effective charge rate from a power-limited AC supply!
Everyone that stops short of turning their motorcycle into a recumbent faired bicycle or a fully prone solar racer hits a point where they say "good enough". And maybe not even then. The question is at where you stop, and why.
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My point is it is probably racing and wanting to look like racers on TV that has changed the image of what we think looks best, when in reality, without outside influence, the shape that truly looks best to us naturally is the one that is most efficient.
So, Richard230 above says he is in the camp of wanting more battery vs charging, but I think what he really means is he wants more range. If that can be done with aerodynamics easier than trying to fit another 16 kWh on a bike to have 32 kWh total, I can promise it will be easier and less expensive, heavy, etc. Can you imagine a motorcycle with 32 kWh on it? To get 200 miles highway range you will need it. Or aerodynamics on a current 16 kWh bike could do the same 200 highway miles.
No one is going to mass produce an efficient fairing when lots of people don't want to look that way. It's just frustrating to me that people that own electric motorcycles don't want them to go as far as they can on a charge and there is so much difference in opinion. Maybe one day that will change.
Sorry for the rant. I just am close to this issue. I rode around on the Vetter motorcycle for 50,000 miles and not once did anyone say they didn't like how it looked. Yet I would hear Zero owners like Ben say they liked my bike but didn't want to look that way themselves. This is what was so confusing to me. Where did this worry and concern about how it looks come from? I just want the bikes to be as efficient as they can be. And the first thing would be to go down the highway using 80 watt hours per mile instead of 160.
We need this rant; it's food for thought. It must be really difficult to do something really bold and have to wait to see it materialize for others, when we're finally technically capable of making long-distance travel reachable for electric motorcycles.
I'm reminded of Brandon's initial marketing poll about what we'd pay for a 1-hour charger. Many (myself included) underestimated what they'd be willing to pay. And I have to admit pausing to consider (for a minute!) the commitment involved before I put down money, but I also got to witness it in action first. It's difficult to believe something like this from afar! One thing that works about DigiNow's offer is building on/with eMotorWerks' engineering.
Fully efficient fairings must have a similar adoption hurdle, but a full fairing isn't just a box you can place somewhere and then use. You're pointing out the very heavy problem of image, but I think that disappears once someone [credibly] shows an option you can put money down for.
I'm sure that if someone took a 3/4 or dustbin fairing, and literally listed the parts required to solidly mount it on a modern Zero, a few dozen people would put money on the table to get it, and that's for the 30% reduction in highway power consumption, not the golden 50%.
I don't think the 30% design is what to aim for, but it certainly feels more realistic to assemble and acquire, and personally I can deal with 30% if it gets me on the road this year comfortably. We've all seen your work, and it's amazing, but it's also a level of involvement similar to assembling one's own kit plane. [It's obviously much simpler but it doesn't seem like Vetter's last fairing comes with set plans to follow for a Zero, especially watching Burton's progress.]
I'll also admit that it's daunting to commit to a strategy that doesn't allow for a passenger; I might cross the country alone but want enjoyable day trips with my girlfriend as well, or know that I can navigate around town with a lot of bulk. I don't want to pile onto doubts but just express the concerns that keep me from commitment.
So, what can we do to maintain progress? How do we get good fairings onto more bikes out in the wild? I don't feel like we all have to shout in unison for the exact same design constraints in order to get some company with experience to package up the Vetter or similar design for a Zero. I feel that if a credible company puts effort into it, more will adopt it than would have expected to - no one wants to miss out.
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In my case, and I think a lot of other cases, the issue isn't how a fairing looks, or what other people think of them. It's an unwillingness to have to duck down behind a sportbike-type fairing, or deal with the substantial extra weight high up of a Vetter-type fairing. A clear or mostly clear Plexistar-type fairing that protected me from wind *while upright* and also increased range, all without weighing enough to make an already heavy-feeling SR even heavier, that would be just fine with me. I used a big quick-remove Plexistar on my Madura 1200 in the Nineties, and while I took it off in hotter weather because it lowered high speed performance a lot, I loved it the rest of the year. Something that combined the protection of that, with less drag instead of more, would be fantastic.
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Well you can still get the old dustbin style fairings.
http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/vintage/vintagefairingsdustbin.htm (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/vintage/vintagefairingsdustbin.htm)
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I am all for aerodynamic streamlining, I just don't think the motorcycle market will support that trend with sales. For whatever reason, motorcycle buyers are very conservative in their buying tastes. Note the current sales trend in the "retro" styling. No aerodynamics there. ::)
Regarding small stock windshields, most motorcycle customers who complain about the windshield that cane with their bikes from the factory, say they are too small and typically purchase larger windshields made by aftermarket suppliers. My guess is that stock windshields are usually somewhat tiny because it saves the motorcycle manufacturer a few bucks on every shield. And a penny saved is a penny earned (for the stockholders). ;)
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Well you can still get the old dustbin style fairings.
http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/vintage/vintagefairingsdustbin.htm (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/vintage/vintagefairingsdustbin.htm)
Yes, and I'm explicitly considering them. What I'm saying is that there needs to be a known fitment for there to be sales. Asking every buyer to invent a mount is what prevents adoption.
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I am all for aerodynamic streamlining, I just don't think the motorcycle market will support that trend with sales...Note the current sales trend in the "retro" styling.
I'm very much of two minds regarding fairings. I absolutely love the current "retro" bikes; to my eye, the new Norton Commando is simply beyond stunning. I'd never consider hiding a bike like that under any type of fairing whatsoever. Even a bikini fairing would completely destroy the look of that bike. Naked is the only way for a work of art like that.
But for whatever reason, my SR has a very different appeal to me. It's far less of an aesthetic appeal and far more of a "real world transportation solution" appeal. It sounds kind of sad to write it that way, but it's not sad at all to me -- I picked the SR over every other bike, including the Norton, and couldn't be happier with my decision. Maybe I'm just getting more practical in my old age, but for whatever reason it's about reality for me these days, not image.
So for the SR, I'm all about a full-on, highly efficient aerodynamic solution. The rewards of range improvement are so valuable to an EV that I'm not just ready for it, I want it. Even if it's "aesthetically challenged" I wouldn't really consider it ugly since it would possess that kind of highly functional beauty many extremely efficient designs have. My only reservation would be about the full whale tail true streamliners have -- I just couldn't get that in my carport, let alone trying to back it out. Practically speaking, that tail just is too much of a sacrifice for me. But other than that, bring on the ugly!
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Airtech is located in Vista about 160 km from Hollywood Electrics and if I'm right there are some members living near them. Oneway from HE to Airtech is do-able without a charging stop.
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Airtech is located in Vista about 160 km from Hollywood Electrics and if I'm right there are some members living near them. Oneway from HE to Airtech is do-able without a charging stop.
Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
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Airtech is located in Vista about 160 km from Hollywood Electrics and if I'm right there are some members living near them. Oneway from HE to Airtech is do-able without a charging stop.
Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
Yes, please! CC me at thisusername@gmail.com if it helps justify the fitment.
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all without weighing enough to make an already heavy-feeling SR even heavier,
The SR lighter than most sport bikes. I hope you are not comparing the Zero to dry weights of conventional motorcycles too.
The SR does not feel heavy to handle either. If yours feels heavy, I would do a proper suspension set up with a good shop. I did that and cut a lot of fork spacer to get the sag right.
What feels heavy to me is all that wind hitting my chest, arms and helmet at 80 MPH ;)
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I'm in poor health, and am weaker than I once was, so the SR feels very heavy to me. My GS450T feels much lighter, even though it's probably close in weight when full of gas. The SR does feel lighter than the GS850G I rode for a decade and then sold, anyway...
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I'm sorry to hear that you're in poor health leftie. I gathered that when you mentioned painkillers in a different post.
Did you consider an FXS? I know range is even more limited on those bikes, but I think they're a fair bit lighter. Tons of fun too! I've never really considered an FX or FXS before, but my mind is opening up to them.
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While I think of it, I've got a quick question for Terry or anyone else that has tried a big fairing:
How does a big fairing affect handling? Especially the really big ones.
I can't imagine they make a massive difference unless they're very heavy. Perhaps they give more stability at speed? Unless there are strong cross-winds of course!
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"Did you consider an FXS? I know range is even more limited on those bikes, but I think they're a fair bit lighter. Tons of fun too! I've never really considered an FX or FXS before, but my mind is opening up to them."
I rode both an FX and DS in 2014. Ironically, they had either an S or SR there, but I passed on riding that, because I mistakenly thought the riding position would be too low. Funny, because while the FX and DS were a Blast to ride, both are too tall for me to sit comfortably on them while stopped. I was also afraid I'd kill myself on the FX. ;-)
So I'm not totally OT: I think it would be great if we could buy a two-piece plexi fairing that would give you the options of just a full windshield in warm weather/short trips, or a full body fairing with full shield in cold weather/long trip situations.
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Great suggestion Bonkers. While reading that I was also thinking an FXS would be shorter, lighter etc for Leftie.
A full streamliner definitely can have handling issues with cross winds. I experienced it many times and so has Alan Smith who is the only other person to ride around on a Vetter streamliner for any length of time on his Ninja 250. Although his next build is going to be on a Zero S.
We both agree a full streamliner isn't for everyone. We both have a lot of riding experience and that is why we felt comfortable. But even he is going back to a Kamm tail as we speak because the 5-10% extra from the full tail isn't worth the increased length and side area. even the storage in that little triangle is a point of diminishing returns.
I would not recommend a full tail to anyone else ever for street use unless your purpose is solely for a landspeed run at Bonneville.
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Any more information on Airtech would be appreciated. I only live 20 miles from Vista and have my 2013 DS with 12.5 kWh battery just sitting in the garage. I'm only riding my DSR and could modify the DS for touring! It already has street tires on it.
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There been complaints about poor quality but when I look into it it looks like their issue is that the dustbin fairings are lightweight and made to shatter an impact, which is probably a good thing from a safety points of view. Like Burton says, if the big Vetter fairing comes off at speed, it could kill you. I'm really tempted to use one of theirs for the front. The front is only 40% or so of the aerodynamic equation but it's most of the comfort equation.
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Any more information on Airtech would be appreciated. I only live 20 miles from Vista and have my 2013 DS with 12.5 kWh battery just sitting in the garage. I'm only riding my DSR and could modify the DS for touring! It already has street tires on it.
Give them a call to see if you can come by test if a few of their fairing are suitable with brackets.
There been complaints about poor quality but when I look into it it looks like their issue is that the dustbin fairings are lightweight and made to shatter an impact, which is probably a good thing from a safety points of view. Like Burton says, if the big Vetter fairing comes off at speed, it could kill you. I'm really tempted to use one of theirs for the front. The front is only 40% or so of the aerodynamic equation but it's most of the comfort equation.
I think that a lot riders would be delighted with a 40% improvement on higher speed and the comfort of a touring bike.
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vkruger... 12.5 2013? new battery? why?
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11.4 would not charge to 100%
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Keep in mind that the aerodynamics of the rear of a vehicle is more important than the front. Just adding a big windshield might not add that much range. There is really good discussion on Ecomodder by user Aerohead.
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http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/ncfmf-video-how-reduce-drag-25378.html (http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/ncfmf-video-how-reduce-drag-25378.html)
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http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/dramatic-drag-comparison-32585-2.html (http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/dramatic-drag-comparison-32585-2.html)
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http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/aerodynamic-streamlining-template-part-c-9287.html (http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/aerodynamic-streamlining-template-part-c-9287.html)
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http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/morellis-fluid-tail-33283.html (http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/morellis-fluid-tail-33283.html)
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ect.
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Speaking of areo fairings, in 1956 Royal Enfield gave it a try with their appropriately-named Dreamliner . Guess what? It didn't sell. But it was an interesting design for the time and at least the engine didn't overheat - or so they claimed. ;)
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here are some example charts showing how just rounding over the front of a vehicle may not even get you half way to the best possible drag coefficient.
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/10583905_688355361243579_7414444341783249031_n.jpg?oh=272ded642b631cfe66053de5318eb899&oe=575E3207)
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/10537035_688355427910239_1211683803066641965_n.jpg?oh=eb98c8bf1286e41f358a4000734b6486&oe=5759FDA3)
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Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
Response from Dutch at Airtech:
Hi Doug,
No time for such a project right now (I wish!). Thanks for the offer though.
(I'd offered to let him use my bike as a test subject.) So much for that idea. I think we're just too small of a market.
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Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
Response from Dutch at Airtech:
Hi Doug,
No time for such a project right now (I wish!). Thanks for the offer though.
(I'd offered to let him use my bike as a test subject.) So much for that idea. I think we're just too small of a market.
Thanks for trying, although that's disappointing. I'd take that response at face value, that he's just booked with projects in his normal line of work/interests. Their business doesn't seem set up for opportunities like these.
I think our best bet right now will be Mike Corbin. He already owns a 2015 Zero for a fairing project he was going to work on for Zero with Craig Vetter. They both were going to design it, and his fairing shop was going to make to molds to produce it.
Corbin's in my (and many others') range. What can we do to move that process forward, even if it just means mounting solutions?
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A full streamliner definitely can have handling issues with cross winds.
On the Last Vetter Fairing Pages, Vetter said that cross winds were not a big issue as people thought and his theory was that the long tail would steer the bike into the cross wind and the bike would be stable. I need to find his quote.
Can you confirm this effect, Terry even if just partially? I wonder if the shorter Kam tail reduces cross wind stability, or is it a zero sum game.
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For one thing, it is only a cross wind when the bike is parked or going very slowly. Which makes it easier for a bike with a big tail to blow off of the stand. When the bike is moving forward at 60 mph, a 30 mph cross wind will combine it's effect with the head wind and seem to be gusting fromm 22.5 degrees off of the nose of the bike. Getting the side area too high is a problem though since bikes corner by leaning. And a high center of pressure from the side allows any side force that is generated to push the top of the bike more than the bottom so it leans and steers with the wind and moves over the wrong way. Luckily any good bike tends to lean into a side wind automatically due to the trail in the front geometry so the trick with a tail is to keep it from getting so high that it defeats this.
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Another issue with a pure streamlined shape is that it is now a symetrical wing that will make lift (side) when side winds give the air an angle of attack. Many modern sport bikes have sharp corners sticking forward beside the headlight which will tend to spoil the attached flow only in side winds to reduce the lift (side).
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As to the side wind performance of a trucated tail versus a full tail Craig or Terry would know since they have tried it both ways. My low and truncated tail on my CBR250R is a complete non issue in side winds with the only difference being slightly subdued automatic lean in response to gusty little side winds which I think feels different just because of the extra mass about the roll axis.
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(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1601184_835981233147657_1123048850629157138_n.jpg?oh=8a75fbec279625cfd0b8610ddfc34fd6&oe=578F3D12)
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My low and truncated tail on my CBR250R is a complete non issue in side winds with the only difference being slightly subdued automatic lean in response to gusty little side winds which I think feels different just because of the extra mass about the roll axis.
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(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1601184_835981233147657_1123048850629157138_n.jpg?oh=8a75fbec279625cfd0b8610ddfc34fd6&oe=578F3D12)
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Nice post. You say your tail is repetitively low to a Vetter? Its still fairly high, so that's good that you don't have a cross wind problem.
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It's only 16 inches higher than the seat and I have ridden through some major storms with no crosswind issues. It feels pretty much the same as stock except for the weight. I only gained 8% efficiency but it is nice to have the locking storage. I am planning to build a newer design with a more pure compound shape off of a mold. I was averaging about 103 mpgUS last summer in the better weather.
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http://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/cbr250r/2011/sendler/78563 (http://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/cbr250r/2011/sendler/78563)
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Carrying a useful load is key to getting more use out of your bike. I have a simple DIY plank style system I use on my other bikes.
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11709590_860738187338628_3752207062496255951_n.jpg?oh=c899fc355ae02643a5117ca5b7204fbd&oe=57584C90)
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A full streamliner definitely can have handling issues with cross winds.
On the Last Vetter Fairing Pages, Vetter said that cross winds were not a big issue as people thought and his theory was that the long tail would steer the bike into the cross wind and the bike would be stable. I need to find his quote.
Can you confirm this effect, Terry even if just partially? I wonder if the shorter Kam tail reduces cross wind stability, or is it a zero sum game.
While on paper it appears that a long tail helps pivot the bike on the rear tire to face into the wind easier, I noticed that with a longer tail I just had to be more aware of crosswinds than without. The Kamm tail was easier to manage in strong winds. The more weight you carry, the easier it becomes and more resistant to winds you become. When I would load the bike up to weigh almost 1200 pounds with extra batteries, chargers, charge cables and steel brackets it was more rock steady than people on standard ninja 250's I would go ride with. But when I'd strip it down and ride it it became a little twitchy, especially riding 20-40 feet behind a tractor trailer truck. It would shake rapidly side to side faster than I could correct. It was kind of cool actually.
However, the full tail was great for storing stuff. As sendler said, the most useful motorcycle is one that you can carry things and never have to drive a car. Although it had to stick out the front of the seat back rest, carrying 8 foot sections of 2 X 4 lumber and 6 foot sections of tube and angle steel was very useful with the big tail.
My streamliner bike is down at the Vetters shop. I've only been down to visit once since his accident, and he hasn't worked in his shop since then either. Perhaps later this summer I can get it back on the road again.
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While on paper it appears that a long tail helps pivot the bike on the rear tire to face into the wind easier, I noticed that with a longer tail I just had to be more aware of crosswinds than without. The Kamm tail was easier to manage in strong winds.
We had this discussion a few years ago on Ecomodders and it is interesting to hear Terry confirm my suspicions. Bikes are complicated because they don't turn by steering. They counter steer and turn by leaning. So by trying to pivot the front of the bike into the wind around the axis of the rear tire patch, you would be applying a force to the front end trail that will make the front wheel turn into the wind. Seems benaficial but it is actually exactly what you don't want because the resulting gyroscopic precession and countersteering movement of the front wheel out from under the bike into the wind will cause the bike to lean with the wind and corner with the wind. The opposite of what you want.
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There is no question about the aero superiority of a full streamline though. You can however make a shorter airfoil than what Craig was using if you incorporate the complex curves that he chose to avoid for reasons of practicality. Vetterism #1 "don't make it more trouble than it is worth". Although I am anxious to replace my straight sided tail with a glass over mold true airfoil which would mount on the rear seat, truncated leave the stock license plate visible on most bikes that use the rear fender on a stalk scheme, and have optional side panels to fit right over the stock signals. Of any bike. It will be a bolt through the rear seat or to a rack system that could remove or install in a few minutes.
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You can retain an excellent drag coefficient with truncation of 20%. 30% is still pretty good and gives you a flat width enough to fit a license plate in the normal position and makes the bike easier to park and less likely to blow off of the stand.
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Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
Response from Dutch at Airtech:
Hi Doug,
No time for such a project right now (I wish!). Thanks for the offer though.
(I'd offered to let him use my bike as a test subject.) So much for that idea. I think we're just too small of a market.
That is a bit of a bummer but understandable. Maybe you can pop by and see if a few of their universal mountings will fit with the right brackets?
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Holy crap that's less than 40 miles from me. Email time.
Response from Dutch at Airtech:
Hi Doug,
No time for such a project right now (I wish!). Thanks for the offer though.
(I'd offered to let him use my bike as a test subject.) So much for that idea. I think we're just too small of a market.
That is a bit of a bummer but understandable. Maybe you can pop by and see if a few of their universal mountings will fit with the right brackets?
If their UB1 universal mounting bracket (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/miscpages/brackets.html) fit the Zero, and could load up the DBL2 dustbin fairing (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/vintage/vintagefairingsdustbin.htm), I'd make out a check to get them, that's for sure. I've been trying to understand how the UB1 is used in the first place.
FWIW, one reason I installed a front fender brace was to see about mounting a fairing.
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The UB1 is rather simple and elegant in design.
The right hand side of the bracket will site against your head tube (thing your handlebars run through) on the FRONT of the bike.
The U-Bolt(s) then comes in from behind it sandwiching the head tube between the bolts and the rounded right side of the UB1.
You then mount your headlight on the two rail openings, drill two holes in the extra tabs toward the LEFT of the image and attach your brackets to mount the fairing. If you find you need to move the whole thing forward you slide it forward on the square tubing provided.
Once you have the "fit" set you drill a hole through the square tubing and throw a bolt through it to keep it in place.
You likely will still need to create extra mounting brackets toward the bottom of your battery area to better mount one of these.
I am half tempted to weld one of these up myself for my vetter project if I find I need one. My mounting solution will be a bit different though.
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You likely will still need to create extra mounting brackets toward the bottom of your battery area to better mount one of these.
I am half tempted to weld one of these up myself for my vetter project if I find I need one. My mounting solution will be a bit different though.
Thanks; that is a good explanation. I think I was confused in expecting that it solved more than that part of the mounting.
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I'd just like to add my own +1 to this.
If I could buy a fairing that I could fit in a couple of hours without cutting up or drilling holes in my bike I'd buy one. It would need to just bolt on. I can't fabricate things to save my life. Well I can, but only if it's something that can be made with cable ties and rubber straps. I think I'd pay three thousand USD for it (but I'd prefer it was cheaper).
I'd like a Vetter/Hershner streamliner, with a Kamm/cutoff tail.
I really need this. I have a regular trip that's just under 800 km return. The DS 11.4 I'm riding can just struggle to make the 140 km between charging opportunities, but I have to ride at a dramatically reduced speed to do it. Being able to make that distance at 100 km/h instead of 50-60 km/h would make a *huge* difference. 4 hours riding with 4 hours charging each way, yes. I could do it there and back in 24 hours rather than staying overnight.
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I'd just like to add my own +1 to this.
If I could buy a fairing that I could fit in a couple of hours without cutting up or drilling holes in my bike I'd buy one. It would need to just bolt on. I can't fabricate things to save my life. Well I can, but only if it's something that can be made with cable ties and rubber straps. I think I'd pay three thousand USD for it (but I'd prefer it was cheaper).
I'd like a Vetter/Hershner streamliner, with a Kamm/cutoff tail.
I really need this. I have a regular trip that's just under 800 km return. The DS 11.4 I'm riding can just struggle to make the 140 km between charging opportunities, but I have to ride at a dramatically reduced speed to do it. Being able to make that distance at 100 km/h instead of 50-60 km/h would make a *huge* difference. 4 hours riding with 4 hours charging each way, yes. I could do it there and back in 24 hours rather than staying overnight.
Hey gasdive, I completely agree with you. But for now, before something is easily available there are 2 things you can do to help right away.
If you can source high power electricity along the way (240 volts and at least 30 amps) then I'd suggest carrying around an Elcon charging kit from Hollywood Electrics. There will be a powertank area charger available in the future, but the Elcons are available today and been a lifesaver for tons of Zero owners for over 3 years now without issues. You can carry them any way you like, but they easily fit in the E21 side cases that Zero sells. I've seen people get real creative with this.
If you don't have high power electricity available then I would suggest at least upgrading from an 11.4 kWh battery bike to a bigger one. Also unless you need the DS for off road use, I would suggest a S or SR. The slightly lower height and narrower handlebars offer less aero drag and the smoother road tires offer less rolling resistance and so the range is improved.
If you have a 2013 DS 11.4 which is the biggest battery you can get that year, the 90 km/h range is 122 km
The 2013/2014 11.4 S range at 90 km/h is 137 km
The 2016 13.0 DS range at 90 km/h is 142 km
The 2016 13.0 S or SR range at 90 km/h is 158 km
And the 2016 13.0 S or SR with powertank at 90 km/h is 193 km
So I would first consider a fast charging option. If you later upgrade your bike, the Elcons will work on all year Zero's 2013 and up.
If you don't have the high power electricity available at every stop, then upgrade from a 2013 DS to 2016 S or SR for a 63% greater range than you have now!!!! (193 km vs 122 km)
This alone would be huge!!!! If you are making it 140 km now between charging spots, with a 2016 S you could go 228 km at the same speed, or make the 140 km at what ever speed you want. The 2016 S with powertank range is 158 km at full freeway speed of 113 km/h (70 mph). But to do 800 km in less than 24 hours, you will still need to charge faster. But being able to charge faster and make it the 140 km between stops at a comfortable speed is ideal.
It may be a while before an easy to install, yet significant aerodynamic improvement is available, so to make your life easier, I would strongly consider one or preferably both of those options which each are in the approximate ball park of what you said you would spend on a fairing but are available now.
If you would like to do a newer bike and fast chargers but can't afford both, another option would be to get a gently used 2015 S with powertank which has a 90 km/h range of 185 km, and still gives you the suspension, ABS brakes, and better dash display to estimate range. I can't praise the 2015's battery/powertrain management system enough.
I have asked on the forum many times and I don't think anyone has ever run out to where the bike stopped running on a 2015 or newer S, DS or SR. I've tried quite a few times riding many miles at 0% battery remaining and it just progressively goes slower and slower but just keeps going and going. This is a drastic difference from the 2014's and before which sometimes will jump from 10% battery to 0% as soon as a single cell hits its low voltage minimum, so I'd definitely recommend a 2015 or newer just for the range confidence.
When better aerodynamics are available you can later do that too if you wish and you will be winning at every angle. But remember, aerodynamics alone will not get you 800 km in 24 hours. Neither will a bike with bigger battery. They both help a lot, but what you really need is faster charging.
Even a Vetter streamline kit that doubles your range, it acts as if your battery is twice as big (you can go twice as far) and at a charge location it acts as if your charger is twice as fast (you're filling a battery half the size of one you would need to go that distance you just travelled). So if sourcing high power electricity is hard, this is a better way than carrying twice the battery and twice the charging and needing twice the power to get the same result.
I love this stuff, it's all about making the modifications to personalize the bike to your specific needs, and figuring that out is the fun part! Anything is possible.
Good luck gasdive! I look forward to hearing what you decide! Doing 800 km on an electric motorcycle in 24 hours is huge, and very rewarding! I can't wait to one day soon have you post that you did it! And then of course everyone will ask you how... ;)
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Somebody only 40km away from me is selling a Windjammer for only €40, that is a tempting price. I might use that as a base to add some extra fairing on the lower end.
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This shows clearly that when streamlinig a truncated shape that half the improvements can be lost at the back.
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12670760_977231012356011_6548797739995786192_n.jpg?oh=d62bd2a3638bd0f29d55600c7340e126&oe=577F4E23)
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Speaking of aerodynamics: last week I rode my Zero to my daughter's house, located 37 miles away, as the road turns. (1/3 freeway travel and 2/3 surface roads). I take this route about twice a month and drive the same way each time. The only variation is wind and traffic, but it makes very little difference to the amount of power used during my rides there and back. Typically, it takes between 30% and 32% of my PT battery capacity to go that distance.
Last week I needed to carry a weather station over to her home and installed a Givi 37 liter top box on my bike's rack. The top box could not even be closed as I had to strap down the lid since the station was too bulky to close it and the anemometer and wind direction vane were hanging out. To my amazement I used the least amount of power to get to her home that I have ever used in the past two years of taking that route. Both going there and coming home, I only used 28% to go the 37 miles. The only reason that I can think of for this improvement is the installation of the top box. While not a major improvement, it is an improvement and it is sure a lot easier to install an off-the-shelf top box than designing, fabricating and installing a dustbin fairing. ;)
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Maybe you can try it with/ without the top box a couple more times to make sure what the difference is. Can you look at Wh consumed for the trip instead of battery percentage? And make sure everything else is the same such as having the battery warm off the charger each time right before leaving.
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The ZEV LRC is a much more efficient bike, although it's peak efficiency is closer to 55mph than 75mph.
http://zelectricvehicle.com/22.html (http://zelectricvehicle.com/22.html)
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The ZEV LRC is a much more efficient bike
Are they still in buisiness?
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The ZEV LRC is a much more efficient bike
Are they still in buisiness?
Off-topic; let's not derail this thread further.
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How much is energy consumption do to motor inefficiency at high speed and not aerodynamic drag. Gearing could help that.
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How much is energy consumption do to motor inefficiency at high speed and not aerodynamic drag. Gearing could help that.
Almost none; I think the powertrain efficiency is measured about 90%, been discussed elsewhere. Power measurements at speed easily show that aerodynamic changes drastically affect efficiency.
Is the contest on for derailment? It'd be nice to start a new thread instead.
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How much is energy consumption do to motor inefficiency at high speed and not aerodynamic drag. Gearing could help that.
Almost none; I think the powertrain efficiency is measured about 90%
Electrical efficiency begins to fall away after 3,500 rpm as greater amounts of field weakening are used to extend the rpm range of the motor at the given battery voltage. It will be about 10% less at 5,000 rpm and 20% less at top speed.
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sendler- that's a nice chart.
I notice the name KAMM at the bottom- is it from the same Kamm who created the Kamm back? His point might have been that shortening a teardrop does more harm than good, and that you are better of with sharp corners instead. I.e. the Kamm Back seen on any fuel efficient car today. Obviously on a car you are pushing air up and over since you are wide, and on a motorcycle the Kamm tail would go more in the side to side direction. Vetter found that a full tail was good but that truncating the tail off square was also pretty good.
What's the source of that diagram?
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This shows clearly that when streamlinig a truncated shape that half the improvements can be lost at the back.
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12670760_977231012356011_6548797739995786192_n.jpg?oh=d62bd2a3638bd0f29d55600c7340e126&oe=577F4E23)
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That is hard to read, can we get a better resolution or re-create it clearly?
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Good luck gasdive! I look forward to hearing what you decide! Doing 800 km on an electric motorcycle in 24 hours is huge, and very rewarding! I can't wait to one day soon have you post that you did it! And then of course everyone will ask you how... ;)
Hi Terry,
I don't often get on here and didn't realise that you'd left such a detailed reply!
As it turns out I've been thinking along the same lines of more charging and modest drag reductions.
I've taken off the crash bars (it's actually a DSP so it had crash bars and siren mounts). I've cabletied an old Hyosung windshield to the handlebars because I had one and cableties are close to the limits of my mechanical skills and I've switched from big textile jacket and pants to an old leather race suit from the back of the wardrobe (which looks silly and must have shrunk a lot around the waist in the last 20 years).
I didn't check the drag for each change as they all seemed a bit to small to see but taken all together I seem to be able to ride about 10-15% faster for the same Wh/km.
I've also got one elcon (as per your previous advice) and I've just got a second one which I haven't yet used, as I still lack a Y connector. I'm trying to figure out how to mount them behind me so they don't increase my frontal area and they sit on the pillion seat which should be strong enough.
High power charging seems possible. There's a Caravan park at the 140 km mark where I can plug into 3 separate 15A 240V circuits. Another 130 km on there's a J1772 next to a 10A 240V and I've just got one of Rush's adaptors for that. Two elcons in the J1772 and the onboard in the 10A 240V. Then it's another 130 km to my Daughters, were I can plug in at the local shopping centre for a slow charge at 10A 240V (one elcon).
My first attempt at getting down there with one elcon took 13 hours! I couldn't use the J1772 so I stopped early at a private plug on Plugshare, then rode to a hotel, booked in and charged for an hour at 2.5 kW. Then because I was late for dinner I didn't end up plugging in until *after* dinner. So 3 hours in a car park in the middle of the night to get me back to the hotel at 1am. Big day and still not home.
So it's exciting times. The Y connector is the only missing bit of the puzzle (oh and how to not pass out from heatstroke in the leathers...).
So that's where I'm at right now. I'll let you know how I get on when I finally source a Y connector.
Cheers Jason =:)
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I had some fun with photoshop and the Airtech DBL-1 fairing.
For 600 bucks if you can get close to 40% improvement at 60mph, It would be worth it IMO. That would earn you approximately the equivalent of $3k in additional battery pack, if not quite a bit more, even without tail section improvements.
What do you guys think about aesthetics? I honestly think it looks boss.
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I had some fun with photoshop and the Airtech DBL-1 fairing.
For 600 bucks if you can get close to 40% improvement at 60mph, It would be worth it IMO. That would earn you approximately the equivalent of $3k in additional battery pack, if not quite a bit more, even without tail section improvements.
What do you guys think about aesthetics? I honestly think it looks boss.
Nice! I was trying to figure out the dimensions to make sure a graphical overlay was to scale. Did you work out the scaling?
I'm kind of preferring the DBL2 so that the existing lights can stay in place and no trimming is required near the footrests.
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Yeah I thought the same thing about the DBL-2 except that it has unnecessary air-scoops, and it's a little smaller (plus I like the the way the DBL-1 looks)
I tried to size it up the best that I could given the cursory dimensions listed on the website, and using the wheels for scale. It's not perfect by any means, but it's roughly the right size.
It would be really nice to be able to remove it easily for non-touring situations.
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Yeah I thought the same thing about the DBL-2 except that it has unnecessary air-scoops, and it's a little smaller (plus I like the the way the DBL-1 looks)
The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.
I tried to size it up the best that I could given the cursory dimensions listed on the website, and using the wheels for scale. It's not perfect by any means, but it's roughly the right size.
That's probably the best that can be done given the studio shot limitations.
It would be really nice to be able to remove it easily for non-touring situations.
That means working out some mounts - probably to follow Burton's advice on the other thread. That means some lower mounts from the battery cover bolts, and upper mounts just forward/above the battery compartment that either run through the tank area or stop at the frame. [I'd really like to just use their brackets from the fork forward as well and will inquire about that.]
The width being 21" means any mounts wouldn't have to extend far to reach it - even frame sliders might be the right size for this. I'll double-check my measurements today to see what that is. So, hopefully it can be pretty sturdy and we work out a way to quickly detach it.
One concern I have separately is DS fitment, where the front wheel and forks are larger. I'll try my hand at the photo overlay unless you can do it easily.
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The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.
The problem is that it will affect Cd significantly.
I imagine DS would be pretty similar, but it makes less sense to put this on a DS anyway.
Once I actually pull the trigger I'll make a bracket / installation kit for it so it's easy for other folks, but honestly I expect quite a bit of screwing around / modifying to make it work. Probably a winter 2017 project.
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Did you scale the cowl to the bike? It took me a while to do this with the vetter cowl and I had it on hand to measure and take scale pictures from ;)
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The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.
The problem is that it will affect Cd significantly.
I imagine DS would be pretty similar, but it makes less sense to put this on a DS anyway.
I have a DS/R and it makes sense to me, and that's all I care about. I suppose I can make the DBL-1 work in that case.
Once I actually pull the trigger I'll make a bracket / installation kit for it so it's easy for other folks, but honestly I expect quite a bit of screwing around / modifying to make it work. Probably a winter 2017 project.
The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.
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The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.
Assuming of course, that Zero themselves have not run with this particular ball already ;)
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The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.
Assuming of course, that Zero themselves have not run with this particular ball already ;)
I've heard rumors about a certain third party, but it is difficult to tell what timeline a manufacturer has and what they'll deliver when they're not running an open process. I'm not counting on any help other than making informational inquiries to small manufacturers.
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The width being 21" means any mounts wouldn't have to extend far to reach it - even frame sliders might be the right size for this. I'll double-check my measurements today to see what that is. So, hopefully it can be pretty sturdy and we work out a way to quickly detach it.
I just realized that no one's quoted the frame width explicitly: it's 12" total, and 10" for the inner cavity for the battery compartment (ignoring clearances). That leaves 4" on each side for the DBL-1 and 4.5" for the DBL-2, just wide enough to shield one's legs and feet for the most part. That also means that the structure to support it is on the measure of "highway pegs" but narrower than the engine guards Zero equips police models with. I'm suddenly ruing the fact that I sold a V-Strom highway footpeg bar just to check for general fit, but that's probably easily fabricated or replaced.
One concern I have separately is DS fitment, where the front wheel and forks are larger. I'll try my hand at the photo overlay unless you can do it easily.
After reviewing the width and swinging the steering to each stop, this doesn't feel like it'll be a concern. Maybe some carving from the bottom will be necessary but not too much. I (DS users) may need to stick with the DBL-2 just to account for full compression of the forks, but I'll double check fit and overall dimensions. The mudguard itself turns with the forks of course and is just below the headlamp so that would carve out some space requirement.
For what it's worth, the compromises of the DBL-2 I am willing to accept given the overall shape of the DS. I know I won't get the range of the S, but that was already true; frontal area being hard to compensate for. I'm willing to go a little slower to have a long range day.
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I don't want to rain too hard on your parade, but the dustbin fairings you're considering were the exact things that got streamlining banned in motorsport.
They put the centre of pressure ahead of the centre of gravity. Think of throwing a dart backwards. Like that. A string of deaths caused the governing body to say 'enough is enough'. Remember this is a time when they had the IoM as an official round of the GP championship, so they weren't squeamish.
The great thing about the Vetter solution is that the CoP is behind the CoG. He's taken the risks so we don't have to. He even found that adding doors made it too susceptible to cross winds, so we don't need to go down that road. Craig Vetter has done a decade of research on this, we'd be nuts to throw that away and start from a point that we know is dangerous.
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The great thing about the Vetter solution is that the CoP is behind the CoG. He's taken the risks so we don't have to. He even found that adding doors made it too susceptible to cross winds, so we don't need to go down that road. Craig Vetter has done a decade of research on this, we'd be nuts to throw that away and start from a point that we know is dangerous.
"We'd be nuts to throw that away", except that very sadly, Vetter is out of action and there's no actual set of remotely complete instructions for mounting his kit (Burton is trying and taking a while for very realistic reasons), it's all DIY and assumes you're a welding fabricator. Also, the tail is completely not specified, just implied from photos.
No one's seriously considering putting a dustbin on without a tail; it's just that the nose is harder to construct and form and happen to be available at a much cheaper price than Vetter's in roughly off the shelf and measurable form. I want Vetter's platform but don't believe anyone's making a replicable kit out of it, and I'm not capable of that and no one's speaking up about working on it (aside from unconfirmed rumors).
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They put the centre of pressure ahead of the centre of gravity.
This is over simplified. A bike has two tires fairly well stuck to the road and corners by counter steering and leaning. It's not really the same as a dart. Adding side area to a vehicle will always give the wind something more to blow against but having a dust bin on the front doesn't have to ruin the handling as long as it doesn't generate lift of the front tire. I know it seems counter intuitive but tests on bicycles with a string tugging at them from the side in various places showed that the best place to focus a side force with minimal consequence was at the steering head where the front end geometry was best activated to self correct for the side force. When applied to the seat post or the back of a rear rack, the bike was easily pulled over and off course. It also helps to keep the side CoP well below the CG on the roll axis to help initiate the counter steering response and lean into the wind by pushing the bottom of the motorcycle over and not the top.
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The main reason the race bikes started to wreck when the aerodynamics were improved with dust bins was just because of the vastly increased top speeds which were way ahead of the primitive tires and brakes of the time.
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Oh ok, I had formed the impression that you were going to try for a dustbin with no tail. Sorry about that.
I may have overstated the situation. Some people say that the FIM banned dustbins because they didn't look enough like the bikes on the showroom floor. However there are real issues at play, even with wheels to keep the thing pointed in the right direction. I just wanted to point out that there are known dangers to this, which is why I'd love to see a real live actual aerodynamicist employed at Zero to make something that's light, simple and safe. I think it's telling that Mugen and Motoczysz both avoided the dustbin, despite them being allowed under the IoM rules. I think it's completely possible to create a safe streamliner for the road. Just that I don't think a tail-less 1950 dustbin copy is it.
If you're fully aware of the dangers and happy to go ahead, then that's great. I'd be a complete hypocrite if I said not to. I used to design, build and dive my own rebreathers when the only ones available were military, and if they aren't death machines, nothing is.
Motorcycle Tuning: Chassis
By John Robinson
"A pressure drop between one side and the other will encourage the vehicle to move in the direction of the pressure. However this force acts on the side area and if the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity then the vehicle starts to behave like a weather vane and turns towards the high pressure side. A well-balanced vehicle will be self correcting because the pressure force will make it move, say, to the left while the couple set up between the centre of pressure and the steering axis will make it steer to the left and roll to the right and the two will largely cancel one another out. If the centre of pressure is far forward or if there is a large side are - as it might be with the 1950s style dustbin fairings, then high pressure on the side will cause unpredictable combinations of roll and yaw, a possibly unstable situation....Racers developed large frontal fairings in the 1950s and were promptly banned because the forward centre of pressure was thought to make them unstable with any amount of yaw"
http://club.motoczysz.com/?p=453 (http://club.motoczysz.com/?p=453)
"There are many debates about why the dustbin (AKA “garbage canâ€) fairing was ruled illegal in ’57. The reasons range from aesthetics to politics but one of the undisputed reasons is that several crashes were attributed to the dustbins and their negative effect on handling- and that was on a 1957 motorcycle! What made the dustbin fairing dangerous for 50’s era racing motorcycles makes it suicidal for 2010 era racing motorcycles.....There is a place for streamlining. Our joint venture with Bajaj has identified aerodynamics as a project priority and one of the best methods to achieving greater efficiency and range in our project. The original C1 spent time in CFD and actual wind tunnel testing, by no means am I opposed to improved aerodynamics. As efficiency is such a component to electric racing it is easy to see why someone may think this is a good idea but I am certain this same person has no modern day racing experience."
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However this force acts on the side area and if the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity then the vehicle starts to behave like a weather vane and turns towards the high pressure side.
Very common misconception among many people that should know better. Trying to yaw the bike around a pivot point of the rear wheel with a long tail like a dart causes the front steering geometry to react with gyro precession and translation of the force through the trail to counter steer the tire patch toward the wind which leans and corners the bike with the wind any time the front tire still has traction. The only time a long tail really helps the bike stay straight would be in a high speed/ low traction situation like when running on salt. As Terry has stated above that the truncated tail was a little easier to handle in the wind than the full tail. He has tried it off and on both ways so should know.
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The problem with creating an airfoil shape with full attachment of flow is that you have created an efficient vertical wing that creates lift (side) when side winds shift the apparent vector of the oncoming air stream to give it an angle of attack. This will occur with or without a tail but will be more pronounced the more perfect the airfoil with a tail.
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Craig found out that venting the the pressure differential across his lap was a big help when he tried closing in one side side of his bike and immediately took the door back off because cross wind performance was worse. I also see that modern faired world bikes such as the CBR250R and R3 have obviously drawn on their companies design experience by incorporating a scoop like shape in the sides windshield/ dash area to vent pressure across the bike. And a second technique which is the implimentation of spoilers via the sharp protrusions at either side of the headlight to spoil the attachment and kill the lift (side) whenever there is a cross wind.
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So here are some recommendations that have come from 5 years of heated debates with some really good engineer types on Ecomodder.com for an aero motorcycle that doesn't get too unruly in cross winds.
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Obviously we would want the most efficient pure airfoil shape draped over the top view of the bike and rider with a concession to an acceptable rear overhang via Kamm truncation at the upper to fit a license plate, tapering down to a more efficient J form behind the wheel at the bottom. There is no stability advantage to a full length tail and it makes the bike difficult to park although a complete pure form all the way to the back is more efficient.
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The side view should also fit the template as posted on Ecomodder with minimal front overhang, as low to the ground as possible while retaining reasonable ground clearance with the exit sweeping up at the template angle to clear driveways.
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Height is the real problem that gives side winds leverage to lean the bike over the wrong way so a low seat height and low over all height is a target. At which point you see most designs must choose head forward or feet forward. Sit up and beg riding positions are the worst for cross winds since the wind can push on a higher area of the rider and their upper body is not anchored to the bike so they get blown over by the wind and the bike follows their lean.
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Design an effective vent across the rider's hands and in front of the battery.
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Add a curved "Y" spoiler rib starting at the stagnation point of the nose and curving up to either side of the wind screen. Effective tests have been done on other dust bin set ups with some 2 inch rope.
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It sounds like the Dan Gurney Alligator was on the right track. ;)
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Design an effective vent across the rider's hands and in front of the battery.
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Add a curved "Y" spoiler rib starting at the stagnation point of the nose and curving up to either side of the wind screen. Effective tests have been done on other dust bin set ups with some 2 inch rope.
What do you mean by a "vent across the rider's hands?" The LVF has a turret with a physical buffer where the hands rest which is great for year round riding especially when it is either raining and 33F out or under 25F for keeping your hands warm and dry.
Also do you have any documentation links for the curved Y spolier?
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A vent would be any open space that allows air to move across from one side of the bike to the other. Ideally it would be located at the position of the maximum thickness of the airfoil where the max pressure differential and lift during side winds would occur. Between the hands and the chin, across the lap, with vents cut into the nose just in front of the battery or radiator, ect. The amount of air gust that I feel ripping across my lap when I ride my PCX (which has a nice, aero nose) in windy weather is astonishing. It makes me think that an area of up to 2 square feet might be required to really make a difference in venting away the lift (side) of a streamliner.
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/481965_349027208509731_690489537_n.jpg?oh=fdedafa3cdf555fc4c85c77a5d826d5b&oe=5783A85A)
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Here is a diagram showing how side winds combine with the headwind of a fast moving streamliner.
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/382540_482198595192591_1794962551_n.jpg?oh=4b30cb7717bb9e6158819bfaf7a0b2fa&oe=5781F83C)
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And this is how a spoiler can break the attached flow to diminish lift when the streamliner is attacked from an angle while being generally invisible to drag when no side wind is present. The ribs could be out of the way of the headlight and windshield yet still be following flow lines as they diverge toward the top corners of the windscreen. Experiments could be done by gluing tubing into place.
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/v/t1.0-9/10176244_619578331454616_889384864_n.jpg?oh=f8d8a6875eafd22b330832d7ae03a3c0&oe=5783C031)
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Ok, I already knew about the stall strip but never heard it called a "Y" spoiler before. Some with vetter fairings have thought about putting such a trip down the center of the front fairing to kill side winds but I don't recall anyone who has documented it in action yet. (memory bad on this though)
As for the "venting" in the same group above it has been shown the back end really just needs to be wider than the front to catch the air flowing past the gap / rider so it can reattach to the rear of the bike. If reattachment is the goal then this would have to be a must. If you simply wanted to push air over the gap then so far as I can tell no one has submitted a way to keep the air stream intact and have it reattach later.
So really if the goal is to "clear the gap" without "reattaching" then you don't need a proper tail as if the air stream doesn't reattach then it doesn't matter what is behind you.
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The vent would relate to Craig's observation of poor cross wind handling when he closed off one side of his streamliner. Leaving it open so that the lift pressure differential from side winds could vent across his lap from one side to the other was better.
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The spoiler can be one line as in the photo but there are also alternative flow lines which could diverge two spoiler strips to clear the headlight and windscreen. Look at any motorcycle's wind screen after it has been riding at speed in the rain and you will see the muddy traces start out moving straight up vertically from the stagnation point and then begin to arc out more to the sides at the top of the wind screen which would make the shape of a "V" or "Y".
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ahhhh, anyone seen THIS ? (http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/)
laters,
laramie ;)
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ahhhh, anyone seen THIS ? (http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/)
Okay, so someone custom fabricated a carbon-fiber full sport fairing for an SR along with replacement cafe-style bodywork. It's also sporting a round/custom headlamp and a left brake lever. And they're presumably in Southeast Asia... somewhere.
I like it; can someone source this and see about plans or reproducing it?
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It would be nice if Zero could offer a faired version like the BMW F800GT.
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(http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/2013-BMW-F-800-GT.jpg)
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It would be nice if Zero could offer a faired version like the BMW F800GT.
That would be hard to resist! I've test-ridden the F800GT and found the bike as a whole hard to resist (the BMW salesperson's attitude tipped the scales against it). Although, GT fairings do little for the tail (other than the well-integrated panniers).
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ahhhh, anyone seen THIS ? (http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/)
Okay, so someone custom fabricated a carbon-fiber full sport fairing for an SR along with replacement cafe-style bodywork. It's also sporting a round/custom headlamp and a left brake lever. And they're presumably in Southeast Asia... somewhere.
I like it; can someone source this and see about plans or reproducing it?
Looks sharp, but looks like a carbon fiber wrap over some black material to me. See the inside (http://s2.paultan.org/image/2016/04/Zero_-9.jpg) of the fairing, or the inside of the rear fender (http://s2.paultan.org/image/2016/04/Zero_-10.jpg) and what appears to be wrinkles where the wrap was applied to the master cylinder guard.
Headlamp looks like a JW Speaker (http://betterautomotivelighting.com/2013/06/04/harley-davidson-led-headlights-made-by-jw-speaker-in-the-usa/) unit, better known as the Harley Daymaker LED headlight.
Definitely put some work into the fairings and trim.
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Someone provided this on the FB group. Apparently it's a dealer customization in Indonesia, priced at 23000 USD.
http://www.trussty.com/2016/04/here-she-is-zero-electric-motorcycle.html?m=1 (http://www.trussty.com/2016/04/here-she-is-zero-electric-motorcycle.html?m=1)
The dealer's website doesn't offer any details about their Zeros: http://www.garansindo.com/ (http://www.garansindo.com/)
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For a quick reality check, here is a BMW K100: (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw_k100%2083.htm)
(http://i.imgur.com/jkIR8SK.jpg)
16,3km/l
And here is its brother K100RT (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw_k100rt%2083.htm), same bike but with some added luxury and a fairing:
(http://i.imgur.com/rPIQWGZ.jpg)
23,3km/l
I think the fairing above is of a good size for the average tourer and the improvement if fuel consumption is more than noteworthy.
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My friend owns a 1980's K100RT and he hates the fairing. He was asking me this weekend if he could remove the fairing and turn the RT into a "naked" bike. So I said, give it a try. It couldn't look any worse that a crashed RT and might (sort of) resemble a K100C. ;)
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That's being done al the time, not too hard to pull of. I had a K75RT and mostly riding on motorways I loved it, kept me nicely out of the wind.
Now if you would manage to put the RT fairing on the Zero that would make an interesting case :D
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Just to give you an idea, this is where I'm at with my CBR250R.
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/t31.0-8/13002592_996715730407539_3680643973090023464_o.jpg)
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/12976805_996715727074206_6853165490624844197_o.jpg)
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(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11885204_996715733740872_3991470193649636399_n.jpg?oh=71a1bc88a0ba24191f6906bc8c69bbea&oe=57BB9B09)
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Thanks for the profile shots. I saw your bike in a line-up pic a month ago and was already curious. Have you documented how you approached this? (on ecomodder or a blog or something)
Good job matching the paint and badging it, too. :) I'll bet people ask whether Honda makes it.
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I didn't really show any step by step on the build. It is marine ply for the horizontal spine and the front and the back and aluminum trim coil for the skin. The one crafty trick I came up with that really helps is that the seam for the opening of the clam shell was made with a reciprocating saw after the wood was glued together so that it fits perfectly water tight with a thin gasket even though the cut might wander a bit.
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I'm already itching to do a better tail that is glass over a mould so I can use complex curves which would be much more aero.
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Check out the dustbin bike, number 4 on this page: https://rideapart.com/articles/top-5-bike-uriosities-week-411
It is for sale at $12,000. The owner is located in Oakland, CA. It might be cheaper to buy the bike, remove the Ducati engine and...... ;)
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Oooh I like that design, maybe raise the front fairing a bit so you can stay out of the wind while in a comfortable position but I like what they did with keeping the steer-mounted headlight.
Just to give you an idea, this is where I'm at with my CBR250R.
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(https://sconent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/t31.0-8/13002592_996715730407539_3680643973090023464_o.jpg)
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(https://scontet.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/12976805_996715727074206_6853165490624844197_o.jpg)
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(https://sconten.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11885204_996715733740872_3991470193649636399_n.jpg?oh=71a1bc88a0ba24191f6906bc8c69bbea&oe=57BB9B09)
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Nice design, how much was your improvement?
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Check out the dustbin bike, number 4 on this page: https://rideapart.com/articles/top-5-bike-uriosities-week-411 (https://rideapart.com/articles/top-5-bike-uriosities-week-411)
It is for sale at $12,000. The owner is located in Oakland, CA. It might be cheaper to buy the bike, remove the Ducati engine and...... ;)
They're just around the corner from me! I'll get in touch, maybe just to ask for custom work or something if it's already gone.
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Nice design, how much was your improvement?
I only gained about 8%. But at least I didn't lose any efficiency and now I have big locking storage.
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Nice design, how much was your improvement?
I only gained about 8%. But at least I didn't lose any efficiency and now I have big locking storage.
8% on an ICE bike might be larger for an electric; it seems like electric motor consumption varies more directly with drag for reasons I feel I should be able to articulate.
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My trunk with the lid open. You can see the line I drew in the dust diagonally down the side which shows the extent of the lower storage.
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(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11407133_835981236480990_8759534508764712854_n.jpg?oh=b18f600eafec4860252f76a13b4081ff&oe=57BC0864)
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It kinda looks like a souped up version of a Pacific Coast:
(http://pc800cdf.free.fr/images/Photos/moto%20pc%20800.JPG)
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Has anyone considered the vintage full-fairings from Airtech? I'll admit that I'm partial to their aesthetics over the dustbins.
I'd probably be looking at the Dunstall, the Cronshaw, or the John Player Norton, due to the hand protection, and the fact that I sometimes need to ride to work at near-freezing temps. I'm wondering if they'd work with sport bars, or whether a person would have to go to clip-ons. And if clip-ons were necessary, would rear-sets then be necessary? (At least we wouldn't have to worry about shift linkages).
I'm not averse to crouching, and I've done up a rigid framework inside a tank bag for that.
I've adapted both an Air-tech 1/4 fairing and a Parabellum Scout fairing for an old BMW R65. I found that although the former looks cooler, it's not nearly as robust, and it doesn't provide the nearly the coverage that the latter does. But I guess that's where the full-fairing might come in.
I grew up lusting after the John Player Norton, so a part of me thinks that it'd be cool to slap one on a Zero, but then paint it with the original Norton colors and branding.
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Has anyone considered the vintage full-fairings from Airtech? I'll admit that I'm partial to their aesthetics over the dustbins.
I'd probably be looking at the Dunstall, the Cronshaw, or the John Player Norton, due to the hand protection, and the fact that I sometimes need to ride to work at near-freezing temps. I'm wondering if they'd work with sport bars, or whether a person would have to go to clip-ons. And if clip-ons were necessary, would rear-sets then be necessary? (At least we wouldn't have to worry about shift linkages).
I'm not averse to crouching, and I've done up a rigid framework inside a tank bag for that.
I've adapted both an Air-tech 1/4 fairing and a Parabellum Scout fairing for an old BMW R65. I found that although the former looks cooler, it's not nearly as robust, and it doesn't provide the nearly the coverage that the latter does. But I guess that's where the full-fairing might come in.
I grew up lusting after the John Player Norton, so a part of me thinks that it'd be cool to slap one on a Zero, but then paint it with the original Norton colors and branding.
It's certainly appealing, but I think the trick is determining fit where these fairings were meant to conform to a frame of certain dimensions, and the Zero's boxy lower front is probably a challenge, in addition to the non-circular LSL urban headlamp shape. I'd certainly be glad to see someone do it.
The other concern which has been re-iterated is that the aerodynamic (meaning range) benefit from a full fairing vs a dustbin fairing is much lower. Aside from leaving the front forks and wheel exposed, all of the full fairings seem to be designed around a liquid cooling system so have an "open mouth" design which captures and directs air for cooling that on the Zero will hit the flat battery face.
As far as I'm concerned, if you do it and write it up, no one loses; we'll learn how a fitment works and your bike will probably look really good in addition to having a small range and comfort boost.
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The other concern which has been re-iterated is that the aerodynamic (meaning range) benefit from a full fairing vs a dustbin fairing is much lower. Aside from leaving the front forks and wheel exposed, all of the full fairings seem to be designed around a liquid cooling system so have an "open mouth" design which captures and directs air for cooling that on the Zero will hit the flat battery face.
Thanks for that feedback. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The Peel unit for a Ducati 250 though, has a much smaller inlet which looks as though it could be bridged by a flat chunk of something, while still leaving a relatively slippery shape for the wind to find its way around.
Some of the land-speed fairings look promising. I love the bullet's styling, and it looks like a relatively easy fitment. The single photo of the Bob George fairing almost looks like it might have no gaping hole for cooling, so that might be worth a query to Airtech.
Admittedly, one of my big problems is lack of garage space. My daily parking routine is somewhat similar to fitting a sardine back into the can. For me, this makes the dustbin a very remote possibility.
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The other concern which has been re-iterated is that the aerodynamic (meaning range) benefit from a full fairing vs a dustbin fairing is much lower. Aside from leaving the front forks and wheel exposed, all of the full fairings seem to be designed around a liquid cooling system so have an "open mouth" design which captures and directs air for cooling that on the Zero will hit the flat battery face.
Thanks for that feedback. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The Peel unit for a Ducati 250 though, has a much smaller inlet which looks as though it could be bridged by a flat chunk of something, while still leaving a relatively slippery shape for the wind to find its way around.
Some of the land-speed fairings look promising. I love the bullet's styling, and it looks like a relatively easy fitment. The single photo of the Bob George fairing almost looks like it might have no gaping hole for cooling, so that might be worth a query to Airtech.
Agreed on all points; I think you've been looking more broadly than I have.
Admittedly, one of my big problems is lack of garage space. My daily parking routine is somewhat similar to fitting a sardine back into the can. For me, this makes the dustbin a very remote possibility.
I'm struggling with this, too, and I literally back my Zero downhill into my garage using the throttle in Eco mode. I'm currently keeping three bikes (two Zeros, likely to sell the older one soon) in a single-car garage with one low-power outlet so it's a challenge to work on a big project. I also have no car, so I can't really transport a dustbin as cargo yet. I'm strongly considering local workshop spaces or fabricators for hire but haven't made the leap yet. This is why I'm entertaining a lot of compromises, because I'd rather confirm fit before committing and winding up with useless (to me) fairings.
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Here's a great page with all the relevant measurements for the bullet fairing (see the last image). It'd be great if Airtech did this for all of their fairings.
http://www.dimecitycycles.com/airtech-bullet-quarter-fairing.html (http://www.dimecitycycles.com/airtech-bullet-quarter-fairing.html)
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I stumbled upon this Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHqgnBEbgkljvHQUg9MQfKA) where a bloke puts a lot of model cars in water tunnels and talks about the how and what while providing interesting feeds from the tunnel.
This information is of course nothing new for the fairing builders here but for the newly interested it provides a few nicely visualised first steps in aerodynamics.
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Bravo to Dutch at Airtech! I sent a query about the Peel fairing dimensions, and he got back to me within a day with the following:
"I've attached basic dims on the Peel. Cool project! That's a pretty cumbersome fairing because it's all one piece. Pretty narrow bike but tall steering head IIRC so any of the full fairings listed for a tall single or twin should work!"
I've also attached the photo he sent.
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People, don't overthink the cross wind winds. There is a huge opportunity for improvement, so go out and make something.
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It would be nice if Zero could offer a faired version like the BMW F800GT.
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(http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/2013-BMW-F-800-GT.jpg)
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I was exactly thinking that! I have a F800ST (so a few years before but nearly the same look) and it is a great fairing, not to big, not to small. I think it would look nice on a Zero, and could help a bit with the range.
And it is also a belt 8) (nothing to do with the subject, i know ;D)
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I was just visiting the F800 forum and the GT owners were (and have been ever since the bike came out) complaining about the heat coming off the engine and being dumped onto their legs and crotch. The current thread is about the possibility of removing the side and lower fairing pieces to allow for cooler legs during the summer heat. So it looks like you don't want that fairing on your motorcycle :o
Unless of course it is powered by a much more efficient electric motor that doesn't generate heat as a waste product. ;)
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Well i don't complain about the heat. Yes, in the summer, it gets warm, but still raisonnable. I tried a Triumph Sprint GT once, in fall, and i was litteraly sweating in my left boot after 15 minutes, and i wasn't even in a city (where you don't have the wind to cool you down), i was driving in the countryside, at 65mph!
But i have a ST, maybe they change a bit something on the GT? (would be suprised).
But of course, on a Zero, would not be a matter!
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It certainly *does* generate heat as a waste product, just not as much, and not up close between your legs.
That's where the big friggin battery is, which also generates (a little) heat as a waste product.
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> It would be nice if Zero could offer a faired version like the BMW F800GT.
That kind of fairing is more cosmetic than aerodynamically beneficial.
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That kind of fairing is more cosmetic than aerodynamically beneficial.
All my bikes have a sport touring type of fairing. Ninja250 with the sport touring windshield, Ninja 650, The R3 will get a bigger sport touring windshield. My CBR250R with the bigger windshield as pictured above, PCX150, Yamaha Majesty. The benefits are many and various. I would never go back to riding a naked bike.
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Do you have a bike with a fairing?
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Sorry, haven't visited in a while.
No, no fairing yet. Working on it. Installed the happy-trail.com rack today so I can mount a rear tapered storage trunk like yours and Craig Vetters.
I think yours would benefit greatly from rounding those corners at the front.
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Some good insights here
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm (http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm)
And at craigvetter.com. But they are more spread out and cronological on Vetter's site.
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Some good insights here
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm (http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm)
And at craigvetter.com. But they are more spread out and cronological on Vetter's site.
If you read your first link, you will get really worried about cross winds and streamlining a motorcycle, but if you read Craig Vetter's site, you will not worry any more.
It should also be noted that in eMotoRacing a Vetter fairing is raced. Which if you listen to racing old timers is impossible siting Center of Pressure in front of Center of Gravity as the reason.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/72/e3/d4/72e3d4a62163a579a274b5b5c3b97d84.jpg)
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Resurrecting the thread.
Harlan might have something soon, he showed me a sneak peak : - )
They do good carbon, strong, not at all heavy like the "carbon for looks" guys do.
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Some good insights here
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm (http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm)
And at craigvetter.com. But they are more spread out and cronological on Vetter's site.
If you read your first link, you will get really worried about cross winds and streamlining a motorcycle, but if you read Craig Vetter's site, you will not worry any more.
Honda PC800 riders are well-acquainted with "auto lean". The right fairing will actually lean into and counteract cross winds all on its own.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Well, the Zeros started selling well when they started looking like the gasoline motorcycles that sell well.
bingo.
most buyers are looking for a motorcycle, and like this one that happens to be electric.. Think of all the Zeros sold from their "let everyone testride everything" policy.
they wouldnt even try it if it looked like a dorkmobile or freak.
Totally agree with you. I wouldnt ride a gas bike if it looked like a dorkmobile either. It's not ego, it's I simply don't like what it looks like. I choose my cars by looks too. I'll suffer with less mileage, I don't care. A better compromise is a larger windscreen and a mainstream looking fairing. Leave it to the aftermarket to make a capsule for the few people who might want those.
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Some good insights here
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm (http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm)
And at craigvetter.com. But they are more spread out and cronological on Vetter's site.
If you read your first link, you will get really worried about cross winds and streamlining a motorcycle, but if you read Craig Vetter's site, you will not worry any more.
Honda PC800 riders are well-acquainted with "auto lean". The right fairing will actually lean into and counteract cross winds all on its own.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
So far, with the big dustbin, crosswinds are not really an issue, except for the big dustbin itself flexing at the top edge, so I've got reinforcement there.