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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: dansheibley on December 29, 2015, 10:14:42 PM
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Wondering if anybody has advice as to the benefit or drawback of doing dual rotor front brakes on the zero 2016 S with power tank. I just traded in my 2012 S. I'm a safe driver, however am always looking for utmost safety because my career depends on my ability to stand and use my hands (type of surgical specialty). If either of those were compromised I'd be out of luck (and on my disability insurance). 1) would this be a worthwhile upgrade? 2) could any motorcycle shop do this properly without f'ing up the bike? 3) This is nothing i'd attempt to do on my own. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, if it would be something smart to do, what type of motorcycle shop would I take it to to ensure the best quality job - Dan
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Wondering if anybody has advice as to the benefit or drawback of doing dual rotor front brakes on the zero 2016 S with power tank. I just traded in my 2012 S. I'm a safe driver, however am always looking for utmost safety because my career depends on my ability to stand and use my hands (type of surgical specialty). If either of those were compromised I'd be out of luck (and on my disability insurance). 1) would this be a worthwhile upgrade? 2) could any motorcycle shop do this properly without f'ing up the bike? 3) This is nothing i'd attempt to do on my own. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, if it would be something smart to do, what type of motorcycle shop would I take it to to ensure the best quality job - Dan
On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.
The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.
I used to race a HawkGT, it had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
As far as your hand protection goes, get the absolute best gloves (and rest of the gear) that you can. Gloves are more important than most people think... the first instinct we have is to use our hands to catch ourselves.. when crashing, even at low speed, this can be pretty bad if you dont have real protective gloves on. I personally wear Dainese gloves (kind of overkill) but not everyone likes them... supposedly Knox makes "the best gloves in the world" but I cant vouch for them as I havent ever put a pair on... but they're also worth looking into.
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Zero should add dual brake in an early future, this is out of question…I have had this conversation with industry professionals and I was told it should be the case…when you reach the level of performance they are in / overall weight it is mandatory.
I upgraded myself my former 2012S. The stopping power increased significantly vs stock, but today with the new 2015/16 brakes the performance improvement change is not that significant
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2270.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2270.0)
Now, concerning your case…difficult call. I see two options:
First one: If you really want to do this you are going to find yourself in a tricky road.
- Certification/homologation (not sure how this goes in the US, but in Europe you would lose bike certification if you change/modify your brakes
- Price. You need to find a company to perform the job (normally small specialized companies that support racers or modding…it will not be cheap…(new bike fork, disks, dual calipers, radial pump, testing, certification…)
- Handling. You nee to make sure you get a proper dual brake fork, so the bike handling/geometry does not change (unless you want to do so)
Advice?
Do not do it.
The second and cheaper/easier option if you still want to improve braking/reduce your hands effort/fatigue.
Speak to a proper/good motorcycle shop, ask them to:
- Get you softer brake pads
- Evaluate a change in your pump for a high quality radial model -Brembo or similar- (if the stock calipers would allow this with what's available in aftermarket)
- Check the disk and evaluate to get one -if it can be done- with a higher quality steel
- Get high quality leather gloves with the proper size (yes, I know it sounds obvious, but your case requires this more mandatory)
- Get handlebar hands protections/covers (not sure how to say this in English)
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On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.
The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.
I used to race a HawkGT, it had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0 (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0)
I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!
[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
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For me, it's less about braking power and more about brake steer. On my bike, a 2014 SR, the fork very perceptibly twists when the front brake is applied hard, which causes the bike to steer slightly. You get used to it pretty quickly, and your riding reflexes deal with it, but it's definitely there. I very much preferred the straight braking my old ZX-11 and CBR600 exhibited with their dual front discs. Braking power is adequate on my bike but I'd definitely prefer a perfectly neutral braking tendency.
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You have to make a tripple clamp, and then go buy cbr600 or any dual rotor front assembly
Talk to harlen he has done it!
When I did it I machined a new fork head center bolt, i didnt go after something that I wanted dual rotors for, but you have to do the exact same thing I did to acheive the results you want.
Woth your bike becUse you already have show you have a third option
Your lucky with that standered size 49mm shock you should be able to just slip in somethjng of similar size wihout machining anything
Anyone have a list of street bikes that use dual rotors and 49mm diameter forks???
You could just buy t and blot it up, takeing the master too!!
Make a mount for the guages headlight and you would be good to go!!!
And then sell your Showa on your bike to get the money needed for the swap
(to me to fund your project!!! I need that front wheels, axle... Etc)
Easy as pie
There is another thread where a great member listed all interchangeable for sizes for 13,and 14 fast ace stuff, maybe we should get the 49mm swaps in there
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Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0 (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0)
I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!
Thats exceptionally interesting as it doesnt follow what my experience was on the track.
But to followup.. I point you only to my humble hawk.
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Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0 (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0)
I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!
Thats exceptionally interesting as it doesnt follow what my experience was on the track.
But to followup.. I point you only to my humble hawk.
With more weight and more power(speed) comes the need for more braking power!
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There is another thread where a great member listed all interchangeable for sizes for 13,and 14 fast ace stuff, maybe we should get the 49mm swaps in there
49 Suzuki RM-125 T/V/W/X (96-99)
49 Suzuki RM-125 Y (00)
49 Suzuki RM-250 T/V/W/X (96-99)
49 Suzuki RM-250 Y (00)
49 Suzuki DR-Z400 E Y- K4 (00-04)
Who could that have been? http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4714.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4714.0)
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I think the test is indeed flawed. They don't mention if they can lock-up the front wheel with a single rotor. If they can't the brake is underpowered, where I bet on the Zero you guys can lock the wheel/activate the ABS every time - but if not, the brake is underpowered. They also kept the "unused" caliper in the system. That would produce a spongier brake feel vs. the same setup with the second caliper removed completely. Lastly, probably a single disk on a dual disk setup is likely under-specified. A single-disk setup would have a beefier disk and a better caliper with more pad area than would "half" dual disk setup with one disk removed...
On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.
The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.
I used to race a HawkGT, it had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0 (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0)
I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!
[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
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I think the test is indeed flawed. They don't mention if they can lock-up the front wheel with a single rotor. If they can't the brake is underpowered, where I bet on the Zero you guys can lock the wheel/activate the ABS every time - but if not, the brake is underpowered. They also kept the "unused" caliper in the system. That would produce a spongier brake feel vs. the same setup with the second caliper removed completely. Lastly, probably a single disk on a dual disk setup is likely under-specified. A single-disk setup would have a beefier disk and a better caliper with more pad area than would "half" dual disk setup with one disk removed...
On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.
The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.
I used to race a HawkGT, it had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0 (http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0)
I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!
[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
My post was aimed at the sportbike statement: "The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track...On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics". I wasn't saying that a single front rotor is not enough on a ZERO S.
Regarding the test, good point, I have to agree, having the second line and caliper still on the system, especially if it doesn't have braided lines, does appear to be a flaw, unless they used a line locker, but that wasn't mentioned, and the extra parts should really have been completely removed for a proper test. And another slight flaw is that the bike is still carrying the weight of the extra rotor, caliper and line.
Regarding the single rotor being under-powered, I'd say definitely. Sportbikes are quite heavy, and one rotor at the stock size, I highly doubt would be enough to lock up the front wheel. There is only just enough room for the calipers to be removed without removing the front wheel, so larger rotors are out of the question, unless they wanted to do mount the rotor to the outside of the rim, but they've obviously chosen not to, and have gone for two.
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I for one, certainly don't want a front brake that will lock up the wheel on dry pavement. I always thought that the reason for dual disc brakes was to control overheating and brake fade under severe usage and not an attempt to create a brake system that would lock up the front wheel. ???
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I have to reason that the test was hokum. I had a ZX6R years ago and that had 6 piston calipers on a 320 rotor each side. The braking power from just one of those calipers is astonishing and more than enough to lock the front wheel or send the bike pivoting around the front axle in any conditions. My 150KG KTM 690SM had a 4 pot brembo on a single disk and would stand the bike on its nose from 100-0mph with one finger.
I would like to see the test repeated with a modern ABS fireblade or something, so the rider could just grab a handful and let the ABS worry about it. Its more than possible that the rider simply wasnt squeezing the lever hard enough with only one caliper because they were used to the feel of twin rotors. My understanding is that you only need two rotors when braking repeatedly in extreme situations like the 170mph back straight at Le Mans. Even somewhere like the tail of the dragon you would have to be riding incredibly dangerous to overheat a good single caliper with a quality pad.
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I have to reason that the test was hokum. I had a ZX6R years ago and that had 6 piston calipers on a 320 rotor each side. The braking power from just one of those calipers is astonishing and more than enough to lock the front wheel or send the bike pivoting around the front axle in any conditions. My 150KG KTM 690SM had a 4 pot brembo on a single disk and would stand the bike on its nose from 100-0mph with one finger.
I would like to see the test repeated with a modern ABS fireblade or something, so the rider could just grab a handful and let the ABS worry about it. Its more than possible that the rider simply wasnt squeezing the lever hard enough with only one caliper because they were used to the feel of twin rotors. My understanding is that you only need two rotors when braking repeatedly in extreme situations like the 170mph back straight at Le Mans. Even somewhere like the tail of the dragon you would have to be riding incredibly dangerous to overheat a good single caliper with a quality pad.
I s'pose a test like that is never going to be perfect, unless it's fully controlled in a lab. I could try doing the test myself, but I trust that the engineers know what they're doing, and I won't be going to a single rotor on my GSXR. One thing to remember, is that race bikes don't just use a stainless rotor and street legal compound pads, they use other stuff like carbon fibre etc, etc.
A 690SM is different to a sport bike; the height and lighter weight, and weight distribution will make it easier to endo. A friend has one, and when riding twisties, the 690 has nowhere near the acceleration or weight of my GSXR, so it needs better stopping power. The advantage of the motard is that they can corner faster. A ZX6R doesn't have the power or weight of a 1000.
I have read too, that the twin rotor design is to prevent overheating and give a more consistent feel. If you're doing around 300kmh, that is when the twin rotors and better heat dissipation will come into play, and very likely why they're on a sport bike, and not on Motards. So, it depends a lot on what you call street/road riding. Some public roads have no speed limit restrictions.
This would be so much easier if we could just call Mr. Honda, and the other big 4, and ask them!!!
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Hi there
Sorry if I'm in the wrong section, but it is brake related
I've just done a 3000km service check on my 2015SR. My only problem was a low speed squeal from the front brake. I roughed over the pads and applied copper based grease as I've done with all my other bikes and all was good for 60kms, but the squeal is returning.
I've decided a change of pads is required and I read somewhere in the forum of alternative organic pads being used. Can anyone tell me the part number/manufacturer of these?
Many thanks in advance for your help
Cheers
John
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I for one, certainly don't want a front brake that will lock up the wheel on dry pavement. I always thought that the reason for dual disc brakes was to control overheating and brake fade under severe usage and not an attempt to create a brake system that would lock up the front wheel. ???
all reasonable brake systems have the ABILITY to lock up the wheel.. even a tiny single motorcross brake on a motard without an upgrade (dumb, but true).
The key is controlling your braking so you do not lock it (or trust ABS and squeeze). If your stock brake couldnt lock, they wouldnt have installed ABS on it.
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I for one, certainly don't want a front brake that will lock up the wheel on dry pavement. I always thought that the reason for dual disc brakes was to control overheating and brake fade under severe usage and not an attempt to create a brake system that would lock up the front wheel. ???
all reasonable brake systems have the ABILITY to lock up the wheel.. even a tiny single motorcross brake on a motard without an upgrade (dumb, but true).
The key is controlling your braking so you do not lock it (or trust ABS and squeeze). If your stock brake couldnt lock, they wouldnt have installed ABS on it.
But not all brake systems would meet your definition of "reasonable". When I started riding all brake systems were cable and rod operated single and double-leading shoe drum brakes. So I got used to dragging my feet to stop and now have developed riding habits that keep me from needing to brake much, or hard, during a ride. Most of my braking on my Zero is performed by the regen and I only use the front brake lightly during the last 50 feet when coming to a stop. ;)
I used to own a 1991 BMW K100RS and when I sold that bike with 64K miles on the clock the original brake pads still had about 50% of their stock thickness. :)
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If your stock brake couldnt lock, they wouldnt have installed ABS on it.
ZERO fitted ABS to their bikes to meet the new, 2016 Euro street legal laws.
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But not all brake systems would meet your definition of "reasonable". When I started riding all brake systems were cable and rod operated single and double-leading shoe drum brakes. So I got used to dragging my feet to stop and now have developed riding habits that keep me from needing to brake much, or hard, during a ride. Most of my braking on my Zero is performed by the regen and I only use the front brake lightly during the last 50 feet when coming to a stop. ;)
I used to own a 1991 BMW K100RS and when I sold that bike with 64K miles on the clock the original brake pads still had about 50% of their stock thickness. :)
There's nothing wrong with riding like that, Richard, that's why you're still able to ride! The reason we need a good braking system, is in the case of an extreme emergency, when we'd need the brakes to work well enough to stop in time.
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The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.
I have a 2014 Zero S, and my commute starts by heading down a ~4 mile windy road, about 2200 feet elevation drop. One day, near the bottom, I was cut-off while passing a truck on a straight section, and had to do a full-on emergency brake to prevent being knocked off the road (yes, he went into the opposite lane to block me!). Anyways, I backed off and then passed him heading into a downhill that goes into a hairpin turn. I braked hard before the turn and the brakes had completely faded--I was getting maybe 30% of the normal stopping power. I did make it around the hairpin going a little wide on the entry and luckily have done a handful of trackdays and had enough confidence to throw the bike down into the corner at a speed I would never do on purpose on the street.
So I got lucky, but basically, the brakes on my Zero S failed in "normal street riding". Two minutes later the brakes were fine--they had simply overheated. My racer friend said if the lever was spongy, I had boiled my fluid, but if the brake lever was normal (just no stopping power) it was due to the rotor/pad overheating (so in my case it was the later). What is alarming is how suddenly the brakes went out without warning. My emergency braking likely threw them over the edge after getting heated up from my normal downhill commute.
I do not ride like a maniac. Definitely riding at 70% or so, always trying to keep my speed where I can stop within line-of-sight around a blind corner. This was just a normal day riding to work.
My conclusion: Zero S single-rotor brakes are dangerously underpowered. It may look like a super-moto, but the brakes are designed for a bike that weighs as much as a super-moto. And at 450+ pounds with the power tank (which I have), this bike, like any bike that weighs 450 pounds, needs dual rotor brakes for any sort of spirited street riding with a good amount of safety margin for unusual situations (like I encountered). I come to the zero after owning 4 other single-rotor bikes; the 1981 Honda cx500 and 1984 Honda Ascot also have underpowered single rotor brakes and weight > 450 pounds. I have felt the brakes on the cx500 fade on the track, but at least then it was gradual.
I see the lack of dual rotor brakes on the Zero as a major shortcoming of the bike.
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Good example and story, Manzanita. Downhill riding is something to factor into brake design.
I have a habit(it's an offroad riding habit) of using my rear brake to it's fullest potential, and applying the front brakes accordingly. I even use the rear brake to control speed through corners(offroad habit), counteracting the throttle, and the rear disc gets very hot. It could be due to brake fluid that needed changing, or the type of brake pads, but one time, following my friend through the twisties on my GSXR1000, the rear fluid boiled. It didn't boil while braking into the corner, but boiled in the corner, which was a bit scary, but not too bad, and it pumped up and recovered enough before the next corner. I concentrated on trying not to use the rear too much to control power for the rest of that day!
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Good points both on the downhill and "spirited" riding. On my Vectrix the brakes feel very good at low speeds and nave enough power to individually or together lock-up the wheels. I've never wanted for more stopping power at city traffic speeds (30-40 mph). However, on a few occasions I had to stop quickly from top speed (just under or at 70mph) on a downhill, and I could feel the brakes are not at all happy with that task. They feel strained and I am not sure they offer the same stopping power as they do when going slower. And that's not with repeated stopping, just one good long stop. The Vectrix is not that much lighter than a Zero (I don't know how much exactly mine weights, it is converted to Li cells with about 8KW capacity, a bit lighter than stock, I suppose).
So I think there could be made a good case for dual rotors with better cooling even on "modest" street bikes (though it would add cost and weight)...
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Although they're a very different vehicle, semi-trailers are good example, they have to use a slow, low gear, going downhill, because the brakes will overheat and fail. We've had a few semi's plow through the same intersection at the bottom of a long, steep decent recently, because they couldn't stop.
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I wonder if Zero is working in a totally new platform to be launched in the next couple of years…mmm…I bet it is the case, and I bet they will get it with dual front brakes…
From a pure product life cycle/performance, they are reaching the limits in a few critical bike components/elements, being front brakes one of them.
Mark my words ;)
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I remember learning thirty years ago that tyre choice has a huge impact on grip and thus stopping power. My 14DS has good tyres and the brakes are good enough but agree could have more bite and power. Tried various pads, little change. Put a new disk and pads in recently and it feels much better. I have blues my disk before suggesting very high heat so it may be a limiting factor, but again, in the old days if we wanted more brakes we went to opposing piston multi piston calipers, well matched pads and good rubber.