ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: ZEM Tahiti on December 23, 2015, 08:50:08 AM
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As we just get our first bikes on our tropical and mountainous island, we really love the bikes!
But as all human in search of perfection (!) we spotted some possible improvements (very normal for young brand), and we hope it could be red by the good guys at the ZERO R&D!
- When stopping on steep grades, a Parking brake would be nice. As for big scooters, it is very convenient to be able to stop wherever you want, hands and feet free. Thermic motorbikes don't need that, you just let the first or 2nd gear, and stall the engine!
- For experienced riders, no left lever is really frustrating (I have more than 30 years with 2 fingers on both levers!), so I thought left lever could be an extra rear brake, with possibility to lock it when stopped, ->parking brake.
- a slightly bigger, waterproof, and lockable storage in tank place (afraid that the power cable will get stolen)
- softer seat
- Last but not least, as it has been noticed by most riders, 5 to 10° more for the steering angle would considerably help maneuverability in small corners/spaces
Many Thanks
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- When stopping on steep grades, a Parking brake would be nice. As for big scooters, it is very convenient to be able to stop wherever you want, hands and feet free. Thermic motorbikes don't need that, you just let the first or 2nd gear, and stall the engine!
- For experienced riders, no left lever is really frustrating (I have more than 30 years with 2 fingers on both levers!), so I thought left lever could be an extra rear brake, with possibility to lock it when stopped, ->parking brake.
If you swap the footbrake cyl to a stuntbike style one, you can run a front master cyl and keep the brake pedal.
If you do that, and get an ATV master, it will have a locking lever. this could be your parking brake.
As for the seat, Corbin or any of the other aftermarket seat companies can help you.
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- a slightly bigger, waterproof, and lockable storage in tank place
+1....I'm not concerned about the charge cable getting stolen though....I want to be able to put a full face helmet in there. Then I wouldn't need the top box for my daily commute or most other trips, just when doing things like grocery shopping or longer distance trips.
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As for the seat, Corbin or any of the other aftermarket seat companies can help you.
I wonder about that. Generally they have to have a seat pan to work from, and I wouldn't be too sure they've got one for the Zeros. Pretty small, niche-market bikes. It doesn't concern me too much anyhow -- even when I get my DigiNow charger, it still won't be possible to sit on the bike for hours at a time between stops anyhow, the range just won't support that.
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As for the seat, Corbin or any of the other aftermarket seat companies can help you.
I wonder about that. Generally they have to have a seat pan to work from, and I wouldn't be too sure they've got one for the Zeros. Pretty small, niche-market bikes. It doesn't concern me too much anyhow -- even when I get my DigiNow charger, it still won't be possible to sit on the bike for hours at a time between stops anyhow, the range just won't support that.
If they don't have one, you can send yours in for them to model.
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I had a Corbin seat on my 2012 and I believe Mr. Corbin himself owns a Zero, so I'm sure he could make you a seat!
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- When stopping on steep grades, a Parking brake would be nice. As for big scooters, it is very convenient to be able to stop wherever you want, hands and feet free. Thermic motorbikes don't need that, you just let the first or 2nd gear, and stall the engine!
- For experienced riders, no left lever is really frustrating (I have more than 30 years with 2 fingers on both levers!), so I thought left lever could be an extra rear brake, with possibility to lock it when stopped, ->parking brake.
If you swap the footbrake cyl to a stuntbike style one, you can run a front master cyl and keep the brake pedal.
If you do that, and get an ATV master, it will have a locking lever. this could be your parking brake.
As for the seat, Corbin or any of the other aftermarket seat companies can help you.
That kind of solution isn't recommended -- it will eventually deform the hydraulic gaskets; brake systems aren't intended to be deployed for hours at a time . Ditto various kludges that clamp the front brake lever.
The simple solution is to do what all auto-transmission bikes I'm aware of had or have: Mechanical cable that locks one of the rotors. It wouldn't cost more than $5 or so to the manufacturer to add.
I'm surprised Zero haven't done it yet -- they'll have to after the first few lawsuits due to the bike rolling on top of something (hopefully not someone). In a lot of municipalities laws actually require all vehicles to be in gear or a parking brake applied for all parked vehicles, so it's actually illegal to park a Zero there.
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Your arguments are CLEAR, Wavelet!
Hope ZERO R&D will imply that park brake before any trial!
I'm sure they can even do an electric one, with safety (can't apply until totally stopped).
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Last but not least, as it has been noticed by most riders, 5 to 10° more for the steering angle would considerably help maneuverability in small corners/spaces
Unfortunately, that would affect high speed stability, so that is not likely to change. Head angle is always a compromise between quick steering and stability.
Regarding wanting a "park brake", it would be nice, but if parking on a hill, parking the bike perpendicular to the slope, with the front or rear wheel stopped by the gutter works well enough, but if you don't have a gutter, you just need to get a good angle, so that it won't roll down the hill. Even with a car parked on a hill, I always have the front wheels turned, so that if it does start to roll, it won't get too far.
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Well, you could always carry a brick around with you. ;)
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On steeper hills, just lay the bike over, it is not going to leak anything.
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Steering: I think the complaint is that the turning circle is too wide...unusually so for a motorcycle. Very hard to maneuver in tight places. Nothing to do with quick, snappy steering while riding. These things steer like a PT Cruiser...which could not make u turns on ordinary streets. I have also found the Zero will hit the locks easily when turning at walking speed.
Parking Brake: back in '83 I had a Suzuki GS 450-A(utomatic). It had a left lever with a lock just for that purpose but it was cable operated. My airplane has a hydraulic lock so it can be done. Just more parts and more money.
George in San Diego
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Lots of cheap "automatic transmission" scooters have parking brakes. Not rocket science, apparently. ;)
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Steering: I think the complaint is that the turning circle is too wide..
Yeah, you're absolutely correct, we've been discussing it in another thread, but when I saw 5-10° steering angle in this thread, I automatically thought he wanted to steepen the head angle, which would only help a small amount! I've only just realized what he meant by saying 5-10°: he wants 5-10° more rotation!
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Yes Ben, I was meaning rotation for turning radius! Not bilingual sorry! These bikes are so light that you want to squeeze through cars in trafic jam just like a scooter...
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Lol, just a slight misunderstanding, but we're all sorted now! Yes, I know what you mean by needing a decent turning circle for squeezing between the front and back of two cars; the first time I tried it on my GSXR, which has a very large turning circle, I nearly clipped the car in front!
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I would like to see:
- faster charging option
- LED headlight
- a rear shock splash guard for the DS
- updated app
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Totally OK for LED headlight, even for all llghts : tail light, turning light. All LED, coherent with high tech product and better for battery range.
Some more ideas:
- Transmission belt: even if it seems to do a great job, a wider belt would look much better. It will avoid some comments like "is it a washing machine belt?"
- handlebar bending for S/SR: would love a flatter one.
- sleeker and stiffer front fender for DS/DSR, body color.
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I'd like to see the brake light turn on when using regenerative braking. Thinking that should be an easy improvement.
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I'd like to see the brake light turn on when using regenerative braking. Thinking that should be an easy improvement.
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if an EV cars do this?
The importer for Å koda cars (a Czech make, now part of VW) in Israel in the late 1980s developed a system (called ABW, for Advance Brake Warning) which would turn the brake lights on if the driver suddenly released the accelerator pedal, presumably just prior to actual braking.
Local studies showed that that would typically provide an additional 0.5sec+ of response time to following drivers.
I'm not aware of other cars that did this.
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Some EV cars do. If you really want to have it you can mod your Zero quit easily to do it.
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My 3 top wishlist upgrades and innovations -
1. Enduro ready FX. Stock ready for heavy duty off road.
2. Slow Reverse mode. A function reserved for electrics only.
3. Emergency belt repair kit. Hurleys have it. It should be enough to drive slowly home instead of waiting for a tow, or replacing belt outdoors.
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I'd like to see the brake light turn on when using regenerative braking. Thinking that should be an easy improvement.
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Technically you can already do that, I had both my 2013-S and my current 2015-SR set up as follows.
Switch your bike to Custom mode (Eco on earlier bikes).
Set engine regen to 0
Set brake regen to 100
Set the front brake up so the brake switch is engaged slightly before the pads contact the disk.
Now when you want to regen, just squeeze the brake slightly, you'll get regen, without actually engaging your brakes, but your brake light will come on.
Simples. ;)
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Right now, the main improvement I'd like to see is to the damned app.
Or give us an API so we can develop our own.
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Right now, the main improvement I'd like to see is to the damned app.
Or give us an API so we can develop our own.
An API would be ideal.
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Set the front brake up so the brake switch is engaged slightly before the pads contact the disk.
Good idea. Could you spell that out a little more or maybe point us to an explanation or how-to video?
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Well, you could always carry a brick around with you. ;)
I got the zero brake lever lock when i bought my bike:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_4&products_id=205&zenid=i1gv9js7dps9hu2er5li6fsbs5 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_4&products_id=205&zenid=i1gv9js7dps9hu2er5li6fsbs5)
I haven't had much use for testing it just yet, as my bike is parked in our shed for the winter. Does anyone have experience wether it is a fair solution or not?
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I got the zero brake lever lock when i bought my bike / Does anyone have experience wether it is a fair solution or not?
I've used mine four times, during transportation (2 - 4 hr drives one way) - it worked fine. IMO it applies the right amount of pressure; more than enough to lock a stationary wheel, but not so much that I worry about the seals etc. I've never used it as a parking brake, though.
Ray
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As far as setting up regen to Zero for trailing throttle, with full regen for braking adjustment,
there is a screw adjustment on the front lever. Just adjust the brake as loose as you feel comfortable,
the, adjust the screw to activate the brake light as early as you feel comfortable. I have mine set
VERY light. sometimes comes on and off with a very rough patch of road.
That being said, I don't believe that is what was being asked. If I am riding down the road, and, roll off
the throttle, it would be nice to have the light activate just from that action. Lots of electric cars got
rear ended early on because they were using regen without the brakes. Cars following didn't realize
that they were slowing down. I am guessing that some sort of additional switch and second light could
be set up so that when you roll off, the switch activates the second light. This way, the car behind
sees a brake light. Then, you can set your regen however you wish, independent of the second brake light.
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As far as setting up regen to Zero for trailing throttle, with full regen for braking adjustment,
there is a screw adjustment on the front lever. Just adjust the brake as loose as you feel comfortable,
the, adjust the screw to activate the brake light as early as you feel comfortable. I have mine set
VERY light. sometimes comes on and off with a very rough patch of road.
Thanks, I see what you mean now. I'd considered the screw adjustment only for ergonomic positioning (reach).
That being said, I don't believe that is what was being asked. If I am riding down the road, and, roll off
the throttle, it would be nice to have the light activate just from that action. Lots of electric cars got
rear ended early on because they were using regen without the brakes. Cars following didn't realize
that they were slowing down. I am guessing that some sort of additional switch and second light could
be set up so that when you roll off, the switch activates the second light. This way, the car behind
sees a brake light. Then, you can set your regen however you wish, independent of the second brake light.
I'm using a GearBrake for this purpose, but adjusting its mounting angle is a fiddly and indirect way of getting that effect. It does feel like it works, though, judging from driver reactions.
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I was considering adding a GearBrake. It has all Zero 2015 models except the fx listed as being compatible. What's holding me back is that I'd have no idea if it's working, since I can't see my own break light :)
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I was considering adding a GearBrake. It has all Zero 2015 models except the fx listed as being compatible. What's holding me back is that I'd have no idea if it's working, since I can't see my own break light :)
Testing it (beyond ensuring basic functionality and setup in a garage) is difficult. I found a straight unlit road at night and unlocked the seat and then tested it up and down this little stretch of road by looking in my mirror as I used it. It helped to pass parked cars which would reflect the brake light more clearly.
For what it's worth, the most reliable / easily tested functionality is that when you tap the brakes, the driver behind gets a few flashes before it goes solid. The accelerometer functionality can be tuned beyond that; you just set it up in a garage so that it doesn't enable when it shouldn't.
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I do like those flashes before it goes solid. Maybe we can add that to the wishlist for the 2017 Zero. In the mean time I might go for that GearBrake after all.
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KEY : some people stared at the key saying it looked more like a padlock key!
As the bike uses lot of high tech device , a remote key that you can keep in your pocket or bag would be coherent with the general idea of ZERO (Bluetooth/ Regen) ? My 2008 Honda Forza has that device and it worked almost perfectly (almost because of the battery inside !)
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Lateral stand: I rode a BMW scooter 600 lately and I found a very good point with the lateral stand. As soon as it is down, parking brake is applied, so no extra switch or lever.
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Did nobody notice?
Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second
Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project
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Did nobody notice?
Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second
Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project
Talking about this bike?
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528409_10155040049723677_8075389311414829359_o.jpg)
Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..
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Btw.. some thoughts for 2017. Wild, speculative guessing ahead.
Zero introduced the $650 FX / $1000 S "Fuel for Life" promo pretty early in the sales year, in April. They extended it through May (https://www.facebook.com/zeromotorcycles/posts/10154937439658677), and then rebadged the promotion as their "10th Anniversary Savings (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/savings/)" through the end of July.
What happens after July? As with other temporary promotions that are ended - see Georgia LEAF sales, or Denmark Tesla sales (http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2016/04/denmark-march-2016.html) - expect a sales crash once a widely publicized promotion ends.
As the riding season winds down and the promotion expires, one of a few things may happen:
1. Zero does nothing, because they've sold all the 2016 production they care to sell.
2. Zero will extend the promotion further throughout the rest of the year, potentially under another name. "Zero: because we HATE money" promotion has a nice ring to it. This may be incorporated into a permanent price drop, as with 2015 (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/21/2015-zero-motorcycles-price-cut/).
3. Zero will quietly work with dealers to offer special incentives and get rid of any demo bikes. These are likely to be pretty reasonable discounts, especially after the 2017 bikes are announced.
Now, why hasn't Zero simply made the price cut permanent, as with 2015? Possibly because they're gearing up for an effective price increase in 2017 - at least relative to the promotion price that has run for most of 2016. A price bump - as in MY2015, when prices at model introduction rose a small $300 over MY2014 prices - will be poorly received unless there's significant improvements.
Here's what I think they could do for 2017:
1. IPM motors across the board
Hopefully Zero has closed out of all their old stock motors and can fit the new motors to the FX and the 3 brick bikes. Reduces inventory from 5 different motors to 3. The new motor is more efficient = less heat, which improves sustained top speed from 80 to 85 mph, similar to the high-temp magnet motors in the pre-2016 SR. This is important because..
2. S / DS get a 660 amp controllers as standard
In volume, the Sevcon Size 6 doesn't cost much more than the Size 4 in the existing S / DS. Introducing the larger controller in the lower cost bike allows Zero to hide the effective price bump by eliminating their promotion pricing .. and sell it as a price-cut relative to the 2016 SR. Sure, the motor may not have high-temp magnets, but I suspect most riders that aren't ponying up for the top-spec bike will be delighted by the extra acceleration.
Fitting the 660 amp controller on the 3 brick bikes is possible in part because of the higher power cells used in the 2016 bike. 40 kW from the 2013/2014 ZF8.5 25 Ah cells was ~5.3C discharge; 50 kW from the 2016 ZF9.8 29 Ah cells is ~5.8C discharge. This seems reasonable given Farfle's praise. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314.msg37483#msg37483)
A 3 brick bike is going to be significantly lighter than the 4 brick SR .. call it 3.5 seconds 0-60. Oddly it will weigh almost exactly the same as a 2013 4 brick S, due to small weight gains over the years. ABS, beefier frames, larger motor controllers, etc all add up.
Moving the Size 6 to the S / DS frees up the SR for ...
3. Dual 420 amp controllers for the SR / DSR
All-in power play. How does 75 kW / 100 hp sound? 50% jump in motor torque gives them a lot of room to play with gearing. Fitting the 98 tooth rear sprocket will significantly boost top speed, and the front sprocket gives them some room to play.
25 tooth front - 2.7s 0-60, 115 mph top speed
28 tooth front - 3.0s 0-60, 128 mph top speed
30 tooth front - 3.2s 0-60, 137 mph top speed
Bear in mind I'm calculating these from an assumption that the SR is really a 3.6s 0-60 bike, which has basically been borne out by virtually every instrumented test. Any of these options will improve on their 3.3s 0-60 claim without having to eat crow; I think they may favor the middle option, and perhaps call it "2.9s" 0-60 and "130" mph top speed.
Top speed isn't quite the same, but acceleration should be very similar to Energica Ego, at a much cheaper price. High-speed acceleration above 70 mph will be hugely better than existing SR .. like double or more.
Particularly if...
4. SR gains a sport fairing
Sport bike riders want it. Zero can incorporate a ram duct or low pressure areas to force air over the motor, helping to cool it at low speeds. Particularly if doing the latter, perhaps they can also make a small aero improvement .. but probably styling concerns will keep any actual aero improvement minor at best. (I hope Zero proves me wrong..)
The fairing may well be optional. Call it $1000 premium over 2016.
5. Zero continues to use the same cells, motors, and controllers as last year
I'd love to see them bring even higher capacity cells from Farasis. Frankly, it's kind of crazy they went from 25 to 27 to 29 Ah in 3 years already. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong :)
Sevcon's Gen 5 appears to be initially targeting high voltage applications. I expect they will introduce a lower voltage Gen 5 eventually; however, they haven't publicly announced a LV Gen 5 and Zero apparently wasn't testing with anything secret at Refuel.
Motors as previously mentioned will standardize across the lineup. All IPM all the time.
6. ZF3.3 Power Tank
Again .. long past time. One common cell in all bikes / shipping battery products. Will be a very small improvement in Power Tank range - figure 2% or so, but that's enough to bump Zero over the perceptually important 200 mile mark in city range, and 100 miles of highway range.
7. Price cut for FX / FXS
Because the FX and FXS won't see any significant improvements this year, the promotion prices for 2016 get permanent.
New pricing:
2017 FX / FXS ZF3.3 $7845 - with the federal motorcycle credit, Zero's cheapest bike ever - 2012 XU and 2008-2009 X were $7.5k to $8k.
2017 FX / FXS ZF6.5 $10345 - $9995 sounds like a much more attractive price..
2017 S / DS ZF9.8 $10995 - holding the pricing line here, but new motor and controller at this price point are going to bring a lot of interest
2017 S / DS ZF13 $12995 - beefier controller and a $1000 price cut from 2016? most will walk in to check out the ZF9.8 and walk out with a ZF13. Maybe this moves to $13495 and the PT to $15995.
2017 S / DS ZF16.3 PT $15495 - still steep, but almost 50% more range than the $16k 2013 S ZF11.4
2017 SR / DSR ZF13 $15995 - again holding the 2016 pricing line, and a wider price gap for the R products vs the S / DS ZF13. Huge jump in performance makes this an easy sell for sport riders.
2017 SR / DSR ZF16.3 PT $18495 - quite pricey once you tick all the options .. still far cheaper than the Empulse TT, which now is not even remotely in the same performance ballpark
Who knows if Zero will do all or any of this.. seems a little crazy.
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Hi
I'd like to have
- fast charge
- wheelie setting in app for SR (torque is enough, just need to come faster)
- 2x wider belt, current is way to weak
A+
Marcel
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Did nobody notice?
Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second
Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project
Talking about this bike?
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528409_10155040049723677_8075389311414829359_o.jpg)
Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..
Looks longer than usual,
there are 2 modules in every other fx ive seen
Besides one at refuel
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Ah, good catch. It looks approximately the same length as the other FX / FXS modules.
(http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/small/fxs/studio/2016_zero-fxs_studio_rp_1680x1200_press.jpg)
It's possible they repackaged the enclosure to save a bit of weight; perhaps hard-wiring and removing some of the modular connector bits. It doesn't seem reasonable for them to have repacked additional cells; the controller is already running right at its peak (116V DC).
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Did nobody notice?
Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second
Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project
Talking about this bike?
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528409_10155040049723677_8075389311414829359_o.jpg)
Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..
Looks longer than usual,
there are 2 modules in every other fx ive seen
Besides one at refuel
I think it's just an illusion because the stock bikes have plastic over the triangle space between the motor and the controller, they have the "tank plastic" that points forward, and the custom tank/seat on this bike are moved back from stock. I think all that combines to make it look longer but it's really the same.
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No its a longer brick Ive seen one at refuel; the fx platform only needs a tiny kick in the pants to be an amazing bike (for myself who has a power/throttle addiction just on the acceleration), maybe this will help close this gap, heck a little extra range never hurts
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I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
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1. IPM motors across the board
Hopefully Zero has closed out of all their old stock motors and can fit the new motors to the FX and the 3 brick bikes. Reduces inventory from 5 different motors to 3. The new motor is more efficient = less heat, which improves sustained top speed from 80 to 85 mph, similar to the high-temp magnet motors in the pre-2016 SR. This is important because..
3. Dual 420 amp controllers for the SR / DSR
All-in power play. How does 75 kW / 100 hp sound? 50% jump in motor torque gives them a lot of room to play with gearing. Fitting the 98 tooth rear sprocket will significantly boost top speed, and the front sprocket gives them some room to play.
25 tooth front - 2.7s 0-60, 115 mph top speed
28 tooth front - 3.0s 0-60, 128 mph top speed
30 tooth front - 3.2s 0-60, 137 mph top speed
Bear in mind I'm calculating these from an assumption that the SR is really a 3.6s 0-60 bike, which has basically been borne out by virtually every instrumented test. Any of these options will improve on their 3.3s 0-60 claim without having to eat crow; I think they may favor the middle option, and perhaps call it "2.9s" 0-60 and "130" mph top speed.
Top speed isn't quite the same, but acceleration should be very similar to Energica Ego, at a much cheaper price. High-speed acceleration above 70 mph will be hugely better than existing SR .. like double or more.
Particularly if...
4. SR gains a sport fairing
Sport bike riders want it. Zero can incorporate a ram duct or low pressure areas to force air over the motor, helping to cool it at low speeds. Particularly if doing the latter, perhaps they can also make a small aero improvement .. but probably styling concerns will keep any actual aero improvement minor at best. (I hope Zero proves me wrong..)
The fairing may well be optional. Call it $1000 premium over 2016.
5. Zero continues to use the same cells, motors, and controllers as last year
I'd love to see them bring even higher capacity cells from Farasis. Frankly, it's kind of crazy they went from 25 to 27 to 29 Ah in 3 years already. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong :)
Sevcon's Gen 5 appears to be initially targeting high voltage applications. I expect they will introduce a lower voltage Gen 5 eventually; however, they haven't publicly announced a LV Gen 5 and Zero apparently wasn't testing with anything secret at Refuel.
Motors as previously mentioned will standardize across the lineup. All IPM all the time.
6. ZF3.3 Power Tank
Again .. long past time. One common cell in all bikes / shipping battery products. Will be a very small improvement in Power Tank range - figure 2% or so, but that's enough to bump Zero over the perceptually important 200 mile mark in city range, and 100 miles of highway range.
1. I think IPM across the board is likely. It only makes sense to keep the number of different motors they make to a minimum. 75-5 for the FX/FXS, 75-7 for the S/DS and 75-7R for the SR/DSR. Which just means that the FX and S/DS ZF9.8 get upgrades to IPM but Zero eliminates two part numbers from their inventory.
3. I'm not sure Zero would do the dual 420A controllers unless they could do it without adding liquid cooling...which I'm not sure can be done...I'm not sure the IPM cooling improvements get you there....maybe. But I don't think Zero will go through the effort to integrate dual controllers if it means they have to add liquid.
4. Seriously....when is Zero going to make a bike with with a proper sport bike fairing??
5. I'm not familiar with the Gen5 controller. If SEVCON made an LV version, what does Gen5 bring to the table?
6. Does Farasis have higher capacity cells on the market?? If they use the same cells as 2016 then I think it is highly likely that the power tank will get the boost. Someone said when they sent their for the 2013 monolith upgrade their bike came back with a ZF13. They may already be delivering ZF3.3 power tanks without advertising it.
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I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
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I stand corrected.
No its a longer brick Ive seen one at refuel; the fx platform only needs a tiny kick in the pants to be an amazing bike (for myself who has a power/throttle addiction just on the acceleration), maybe this will help close this gap, heck a little extra range never hurts
Unfortunately, in the past Zero has made it pretty clear they don't want to go to a higher voltage. So unless they have had a change of heart I doubt we would see this improvement directly from Zero for a factory bike.
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I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
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Is the battery physically bigger/frame longer? Or is it just a custom build for a higher voltage?
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I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
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I stand corrected.
No its a longer brick Ive seen one at refuel; the fx platform only needs a tiny kick in the pants to be an amazing bike (for myself who has a power/throttle addiction just on the acceleration), maybe this will help close this gap, heck a little extra range never hurts
Unfortunately, in the past Zero has made it pretty clear they don't want to go to a higher voltage. So unless they have had a change of heart I doubt we would see this improvement directly from Zero for a factory bike.
We both stand corrected on that bike, but I know what I saw at refuel, if were lucky maybe it will make it to all the bikes soon
You can gain with the battery without going to higher voltage
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I'll answer my own question....Gen5 brings better Anti-Tamper...not cool if you like to mod. Although SEVCON just provides the features...it would be up to Zero to use them.
http://gen5.sevcon.com/ (http://gen5.sevcon.com/)
OEM intellectual property is secure and protected
But it also looks like Gen5 line does support low voltage...or at least plans to. I could only find a spec sheet for the size 9 which says 128V to 430V. Maybe the size 7 will support lower voltage? Or maybe they plan to have low voltage models but they just aren't available yet?
And the Gen5 size 7 is 75kW so if it supports Zero's voltage range then it seems more likely than two 420A controllers.
The Gen5 range will support a wide range of voltages (24 V DC to 800 V DC) that are matched to the needs of the automotive and commercial transport markets.
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We should really be looking at the 2016 "wishlist" style thread as any changes made to the 2017 bike were likely made a while ago and are long since fixed and not changing.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5055.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5055.0)
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I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.
Ah.. interesting. I wonder if they used the 29 Ah cells, or something new? And one string or two? One string might have enough energy to get the bike up the mountain .. two strings would give more power.
1. I think IPM across the board is likely. It only makes sense to keep the number of different motors they make to a minimum. 75-5 for the FX/FXS, 75-7 for the S/DS and 75-7R for the SR/DSR. Which just means that the FX and S/DS ZF9.8 get upgrades to IPM but Zero eliminates two part numbers from their inventory.
3. I'm not sure Zero would do the dual 420A controllers unless they could do it without adding liquid cooling...which I'm not sure can be done...I'm not sure the IPM cooling improvements get you there....maybe. But I don't think Zero will go through the effort to integrate dual controllers if it means they have to add liquid.
4. Seriously....when is Zero going to make a bike with with a proper sport bike fairing??
5. I'm not familiar with the Gen5 controller. If SEVCON made an LV version, what does Gen5 bring to the table?
6. Does Farasis have higher capacity cells on the market?? If they use the same cells as 2016 then I think it is highly likely that the power tank will get the boost. Someone said when they sent their for the 2013 monolith upgrade their bike came back with a ZF13. They may already be delivering ZF3.3 power tanks without advertising it.
Bear in mind this is all speculation.
The dual 420A controllers is a shot in the dark. I know there's been some speculation about it, and I don't doubt Zero has discussed it internally. It does make a more complex system, and if a higher-amp Gen5 controller is on the verge of being released, maybe it doesn't make sense.
On the other hand.. the 2014-2015 SRs were clearly thermally motor-limited, and I think they were game-changers for Zero. 2016 SR moved the limit back to the battery pack, I believe, for 20+ minute type track events. Powering dual 420A controllers would certainly shift more heat load to the battery and motor. Enough to make the bikes unusable at full power? Maybe so.
Zero has also released short-term upgrades before - the 2012 S motor comes to mind, a Motenergy design with significant Zero customizations. This was released a year before the new sealed ZF motors were introduced. Likewise, the 2013s used an array of Meanwell LED controllers to charge before they were replaced for 2014+ with a GWP dedicated unit. So maybe even if a Gen5 is coming in the future, they might still pursue a one-off upgrade for 2017 then replace it later with a single larger controller.
I'll answer my own question....Gen5 brings better Anti-Tamper...not cool if you like to mod. Although SEVCON just provides the features...it would be up to Zero to use them.
http://gen5.sevcon.com/ (http://gen5.sevcon.com/)
OEM intellectual property is secure and protected
But it also looks like Gen5 line does support low voltage...or at least plans to. I could only find a spec sheet for the size 9 which says 128V to 430V. Maybe the size 7 will support lower voltage? Or maybe they plan to have low voltage models but they just aren't available yet?
And the Gen5 size 7 is 75kW so if it supports Zero's voltage range then it seems more likely than two 420A controllers.
The Gen5 range will support a wide range of voltages (24 V DC to 800 V DC) that are matched to the needs of the automotive and commercial transport markets.
The Gen 5 Size 7 is listed at 400V operating range on their site. It's possible there may eventually be multiple voltage ranges supported for each size, as with the Gen 4 product line. It's even possible these are sampling now and will be used for the 2017 bikes .. there's just no public datasheets available.
Hopefully the performance (power per mass, volume, cost) is increased, and perhaps with Zero and Brammo's success they will offer more powerful options in the lower voltage ranges.
Sevcon Gen 5 Size 9 (http://gen5.sevcon.com/Gen5%20Size9%20flyer%20Old%20style%20V152.pdf):
- up to 430V DC
- up to 150 kW, 400A RMS (2 min)
- glycol cooled
- 338 x 233 x 83 mm, excluding brackets and connectors
- 6.8 kg
Sevcon Gen 4 Size 8 (http://www.sevcon.com/media/78436/gen4_size_8_may_2016.pdf):
- up to 400V DC
- up to 100 kW, 300A RMS (2 min)
- 332 x 332 x 107 mm, excluding brackets and connectors
- 10 kg
Gen 4 -> Gen 5 increased power by 40-50%, decreased weight by 30%, and decreased volume by 45%. Hopefully similar benefits will be realized for the lower voltage line.
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Zero introduced the $650 FX / $1000 S "Fuel for Life" promo pretty early in the sales year, in April. They extended it through May (https://www.facebook.com/zeromotorcycles/posts/10154937439658677), and then rebadged the promotion as their "10th Anniversary Savings (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/savings/)" through the end of July.
What happens after July? As with other temporary promotions that are ended - see Georgia LEAF sales, or Denmark Tesla sales (http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2016/04/denmark-march-2016.html) - expect a sales crash once a widely publicized promotion ends.
As the riding season winds down and the promotion expires, one of a few things may happen:
1. Zero does nothing, because they've sold all the 2016 production they care to sell.
2. Zero will extend the promotion further throughout the rest of the year, potentially under another name. "Zero: because we HATE money" promotion has a nice ring to it. This may be incorporated into a permanent price drop, as with 2015 (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/21/2015-zero-motorcycles-price-cut/).
3. Zero will quietly work with dealers to offer special incentives and get rid of any demo bikes. These are likely to be pretty reasonable discounts, especially after the 2017 bikes are announced.
Now, why hasn't Zero simply made the price cut permanent, as with 2015? Possibly because they're gearing up for an effective price increase in 2017 - at least relative to the promotion price that has run for most of 2016. A price bump - as in MY2015, when prices at model introduction rose a small $300 over MY2014 prices - will be poorly received unless there's significant improvements.
*rambling snipped*
Zero has extended (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/savings/) the 10th anniversary savings ($650 FX/FXS, $1000 S/DS) through the end of August.
See dealer for details. Offer is restricted to the retail purchase of new, unregistered 2016 Zero motorcycles through an authorized Zero Motorcycles Dealer located in the United States. Excludes 10-year anniversary Zero DSR model. Offer ends August 31, 2016.
At this point the rebate has been active for five months of the year. I expect it will continue until the MY 2017 bikes are announced.
I expect for MY2017 we will either see minor changes paired with an official price drop or something new. Hoping for the latter, I suspect we will see the former.
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Hello friends,
I'm new here because I look / wait for the MY 2017 of the DSR.
As I heared the new MY will be published at EICMA 2016 in Milano at Nov. 10-13.
Today I've done a test ride on the 2016 one - amazing.
Because I'll mostly use the DSR for commuting approx. 60 miles / 100 kilometres in total the effective range fits my behaviour, I still hope for some major upgrades in specs or features in MY 2017 like Bosch ABS 10 with combined rear and frontbrake assisstance, hill assisst and parking brake / hold function are options of this new gen ABS.
A colored display, full led lighting and optional navigation system (provided via mobile and carplay or fully onboard doesn't matter at all) are state of the art in the year 2017, aren't they?
So let's wait this some 70 days and there'll be a nice xmas gift for us. :) ;) :)
Greetings from Germany
Kendy
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You guys think too small! We've got an electric motor under full control of the MCU. It can control power and engine braking. I'd like a wheelie button that will balance the bike perfectly for you. It'd just need a cheap and readily available accelerometer / gyro.
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To add to the rumor mill, it looks like the Farasis web site has not been updated since May '15. That'aps a long time! Too busy working on secretive stuff? Going out of business?
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To add to the rumor mill, it looks like the Farasis web site has not been updated since May '15. That'aps a long time! Too busy working on secretive stuff? Going out of business?
Well, let's hope that they are spending more time upgrading their battery chemistry than upgrading their website.
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What i would like on new models 2017+:
+++ Partnership with DigiNow. Ship 10kw chargetanks, PLEASE! :-*
+++ More Power -> Or at least a ludicrous mode where there is full or a bit more power and torque, maybe just for a short periode of time (for drags vs ice-bikes and the advertised 3.3s 0-60). C'mon, Tesla can do it too :P
++ LED lamps and blinkers
++ Dual frontbrakes. Just one single one is a bit scary. it works fine, but im used to two. Imagine the one breaks on the road infront of a corner on the swiss alps at 7500feet hill down.
++ Stageless regeneretive breaking to about at least the double of the present "100%" regen power. I dont want to use my mechanical so often when i drive a little faster on twisty roads. Regeneration is just to weak for this.
++ More choice in color! I would never have picked red. But i heard u can order these seperate, but is costs..
++ Better quality finish on the plastic parts. I have sharp edges and brews on my tank. On the Back near the socius seat, i have a lot hair-scratches. I dont know from where, my GF always wears her leather bikesuit (how is it called in englisch?), nothing sharp or edgie. A good coating could prevent that.
+ Better mirrors (has distorton). Looks a bit cheap in comparison to my KTMs
+ Let us change the display-Infos like range and trips on the handlebar
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To add to the rumor mill, it looks like the Farasis web site has not been updated since May '15. That'aps a long time! Too busy working on secretive stuff? Going out of business?
It's the former-- good things are coming. And the company is growing not getting smaller. A new website is in the works.
Source: I'm their systems engineer ;)
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Some people have been mooting a 6 brick bike.
Heres the question...
Assuming Zero does not want to change the chassis that much, is there even space on the existing chassis for a 6th brick?
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Some people have been mooting a 6 brick bike.
Heres the question...
Assuming Zero does not want to change the chassis that much, is there even space on the existing chassis for a 6th brick?
I am pretty sure there is not - unless the bricks get a lot smaller. ;) However, it has been my opinion ever since I bought my first Zero that they could use a larger chassis to allow room for more batteries, make the bike more stable when cornering and when hitting bumps, raise the load capacity somewhat and provide additional room for passenger comfort and for carrying luggage. They have been using the same chassis since 2012 and I think it is about time for a change. :)
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To add to the rumor mill, it looks like the Farasis web site has not been updated since May '15. That'aps a long time! Too busy working on secretive stuff? Going out of business?
j
It's the former-- good things are coming. And the company is growing not getting smaller. A new website is in the works.
Source: I'm their systems engineer ;)
Thanks, Bartimaeus. That's probably good news for Zero also.
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Good time to check on forecasts and predictions.. :o
1. Yes.
2. No, not really. The 550 amp controllers should make the S bikes accelerate much harder (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q5-J-v3C_hzuElEOwJzPPk1r5cL-lQkSjb6bL2D6sqQ/edit#gid=0) - between 20% and 27% - than their 2016 counterparts.
3. No. Zero continues to stick with a little / big controller split to differentiate bikes. The new 775 amp controller will let the 2017 SR accelerate 14% faster than 2016.
4. Not even close.
5. Yes, mostly. Same motors and cells as last year. Gen 5 controllers are a nice upgrade, and firmware upgrades over Bluetooth are a big win for servicing.
6. Yes, thankfully.
7. Sort of - the ZF6.5 FX and FXS bikes dropped $500. Prices for the rest of the lineup remain static, though I expect there will be a mid-year price drop.
1. IPM motors across the board
Hopefully Zero has closed out of all their old stock motors and can fit the new motors to the FX and the 3 brick bikes. Reduces inventory from 5 different motors to 3. The new motor is more efficient = less heat, which improves sustained top speed from 80 to 85 mph, similar to the high-temp magnet motors in the pre-2016 SR. This is important because..
2. S / DS get a 660 amp controllers as standard
In volume, the Sevcon Size 6 doesn't cost much more than the Size 4 in the existing S / DS. Introducing the larger controller in the lower cost bike allows Zero to hide the effective price bump by eliminating their promotion pricing .. and sell it as a price-cut relative to the 2016 SR. Sure, the motor may not have high-temp magnets, but I suspect most riders that aren't ponying up for the top-spec bike will be delighted by the extra acceleration.
Fitting the 660 amp controller on the 3 brick bikes is possible in part because of the higher power cells used in the 2016 bike. 40 kW from the 2013/2014 ZF8.5 25 Ah cells was ~5.3C discharge; 50 kW from the 2016 ZF9.8 29 Ah cells is ~5.8C discharge. This seems reasonable given Farfle's praise. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314.msg37483#msg37483)
A 3 brick bike is going to be significantly lighter than the 4 brick SR .. call it 3.5 seconds 0-60. Oddly it will weigh almost exactly the same as a 2013 4 brick S, due to small weight gains over the years. ABS, beefier frames, larger motor controllers, etc all add up.
Moving the Size 6 to the S / DS frees up the SR for ...
3. Dual 420 amp controllers for the SR / DSR
All-in power play. How does 75 kW / 100 hp sound? 50% jump in motor torque gives them a lot of room to play with gearing. Fitting the 98 tooth rear sprocket will significantly boost top speed, and the front sprocket gives them some room to play.
25 tooth front - 2.7s 0-60, 115 mph top speed
28 tooth front - 3.0s 0-60, 128 mph top speed
30 tooth front - 3.2s 0-60, 137 mph top speed
Bear in mind I'm calculating these from an assumption that the SR is really a 3.6s 0-60 bike, which has basically been borne out by virtually every instrumented test. Any of these options will improve on their 3.3s 0-60 claim without having to eat crow; I think they may favor the middle option, and perhaps call it "2.9s" 0-60 and "130" mph top speed.
Top speed isn't quite the same, but acceleration should be very similar to Energica Ego, at a much cheaper price. High-speed acceleration above 70 mph will be hugely better than existing SR .. like double or more.
Particularly if...
4. SR gains a sport fairing
Sport bike riders want it. Zero can incorporate a ram duct or low pressure areas to force air over the motor, helping to cool it at low speeds. Particularly if doing the latter, perhaps they can also make a small aero improvement .. but probably styling concerns will keep any actual aero improvement minor at best. (I hope Zero proves me wrong..)
The fairing may well be optional. Call it $1000 premium over 2016.
5. Zero continues to use the same cells, motors, and controllers as last year
I'd love to see them bring even higher capacity cells from Farasis. Frankly, it's kind of crazy they went from 25 to 27 to 29 Ah in 3 years already. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong :)
Sevcon's Gen 5 appears to be initially targeting high voltage applications. I expect they will introduce a lower voltage Gen 5 eventually; however, they haven't publicly announced a LV Gen 5 and Zero apparently wasn't testing with anything secret at Refuel.
Motors as previously mentioned will standardize across the lineup. All IPM all the time.
6. ZF3.3 Power Tank
Again .. long past time. One common cell in all bikes / shipping battery products. Will be a very small improvement in Power Tank range - figure 2% or so, but that's enough to bump Zero over the perceptually important 200 mile mark in city range, and 100 miles of highway range.
7. Price cut for FX / FXS
Because the FX and FXS won't see any significant improvements this year, the promotion prices for 2016 get permanent.
New pricing:
2017 FX / FXS ZF3.3 $7845 - with the federal motorcycle credit, Zero's cheapest bike ever - 2012 XU and 2008-2009 X were $7.5k to $8k.
2017 FX / FXS ZF6.5 $10345 - $9995 sounds like a much more attractive price..
2017 S / DS ZF9.8 $10995 - holding the pricing line here, but new motor and controller at this price point are going to bring a lot of interest
2017 S / DS ZF13 $12995 - beefier controller and a $1000 price cut from 2016? most will walk in to check out the ZF9.8 and walk out with a ZF13. Maybe this moves to $13495 and the PT to $15995.
2017 S / DS ZF16.3 PT $15495 - still steep, but almost 50% more range than the $16k 2013 S ZF11.4
2017 SR / DSR ZF13 $15995 - again holding the 2016 pricing line, and a wider price gap for the R products vs the S / DS ZF13. Huge jump in performance makes this an easy sell for sport riders.
2017 SR / DSR ZF16.3 PT $18495 - quite pricey once you tick all the options .. still far cheaper than the Empulse TT, which now is not even remotely in the same performance ballpark
Who knows if Zero will do all or any of this.. seems a little crazy.
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You did very well with your predictions @protomech!
Did you also predict the presidential elections correctly?