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Makes And Models => Electric Motorsport Forum => Topic started by: guity on July 31, 2009, 06:46:58 AM

Title: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on July 31, 2009, 06:46:58 AM
This is to document my experiences with buying a gpr-s in case it might be informative for anyone thinking about doing the same.  I just sent the check for the machine today, and hope to write short descriptions of the process of purchasing, receiving, and owning the bike.

Electric Motorsport currently has a fairly small shop in Oakland not too far from the Bay Bridge.  I was told they are moving to a larger shop soon and hiring more employees to increase manufacturing capability.  Currently their primary sales person is Todd Anderson.  Todd seems very patient, not at all pushy.  He either gives you an answer to your question, or if he can't, he quickly gets the answer from someone who does know.  The only negative I have seen so far is that Todd doesn't have a lot of spare time on his hands, so if you are going to contact him about something, you will have better luck if it is a pressing matter.

For test-riding, Todd had me ride 2 bikes, and also he rode alongside on a third bike which I couldn't ride because it was actually destined for a particular owner.  This third bike was interesting because it was a special configuration of a 72 volt system with an induction motor and enough (Thundersky I believe) batteries so the bike could go 80 or more mph.  The bike was selling for $13,000 (pre-tax) as opposed to their current stock gpr-s, which is selling at $8,500.  When it got up to speed, it left the other bikes way behind.

The first bike I rode had already been sold  to a guy who had changed his lifestyle to the point where he didn't want the bike any more by the time it was manufactured. He was now wanting to re-sell it without having ridden it.  It was a 60-volt system with an ac induction motor and re-gen braking.  Didn't like it at first because it seemed a bit sluggish from a standing start and top speed appeared to be 52 mph.  But the bike only had 14 kilometers or miles (don't know which) on it when I first got on.  Martin, one of EM's primary engineers, said there is a breaking-in period with engines with brushes so the top speed should increase as it gains more miles during the breaking in period (I think he estimated the break-in period to be around 50 miles).  As Martin stated, by the time I finished riding the bike it had 28 k/m on it, and one last maxxing out of the speed on a long flat straghtaway went up to 56 mph.  During the course of the ride the voltage meter, which started out at 67, dropped to around 62.  (A level of 58 was said to be the point where it would be a bad idea to drive it further).  Picasso happened to be on the scene, and asked me what how much the voltage was sagging when all the juice was used.  I actually watched one the next ride and told him the answer, but I can't trust my memory on what the exact numbers were.  Picasso didn't look too surprised at the numbers I reported, but for all I know, he might have been hiding his shock and dismay.

Todd wanted me to try a stock 72 volt bike, but there was none available (a lot of bikes were being shipped back from Ohio, where EM had been successfully participating in a big motorcycle race/event).  Martin actually volunteered his bike which is apparently stock, which he uses to commute to work every day.  It had been programmed to have a quick response to the throttle, which I liked.  It was significantly faster from a standing start, and easily reached more than 62 mph in the short straightaway I maxxed it on.  The bike was pretty much what I needed, my only complaint being that I will miss the tall forgiving suspension of my dual sport xl350r and the similarly soft suspension of the Zero bikes I have tried.  

Todd suggested the stock bike could be enhanced a bit (especially range-wise) by replacing the stock 40ah batteries with 60ah batteries (adding around $750 to the stock $8,500 cost).  So this is the configuration we came to agree would best meet my needs riding and cost-wise.

The next day (also, the day this is being written), I called Todd and we confirmed a deal for this configuration, which Todd said would be assembled between 3-5 weeks.  I have just now sent EM a check for most of the cost of the bike, and when the check clears Todd will be sending me pdf files of information on correct handling/usage of the bike...

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on July 31, 2009, 08:38:10 PM
Congrats guity, that is awesome! I talked to Todd and saw the GPR-S bikes in Ohio and saw them in action. Nice bikes, wish I got a chance to ride one. Thanks a lot for the write up on your experience. That is cool that EM is willing to custom build the bike for you. Looking forward to hearing how you like it.

Did you inquire about the $4500 lead acid model? Just curious how the performance compares to the 8500 $ model.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on August 01, 2009, 01:39:09 AM
Skadamo,

I didn't really ask about those lead acid machines.  I wasn't really interested in them and I was already suffering from information overload.  However, I believe that Todd Anderson might have briefly mentioned them as being one of the driving factors in re-locating the shop to achieve a larger work area and a greater number of employees.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 13, 2009, 08:59:47 PM
Just received a call from Martin of EM last night.  Martin is bringing a load of bikes down to Los Angeles and mine will be among them.  Apparently EM has been waiting for weeks for the appropriate battery charger, a Zivan, to be shipped.  It still has not shipped, so they finally decided to place a stock charger on the bike and let me drive the bike that way until the Zivan arrives.  Then they will ship me the Zivan, I will install it in place of the stock charger, and ship the stock charger back up to them.  

Apparently the stock charger is unable to actually charge the 60ah Thundersky batteries on the bike to the fullest extent.  (Martin's figures indicated that the stock charger was .4 volts short on each cell; they were being charged to 3.8 volts instead of 4.2 volts)  So the bike should be just fine to drive, but won't have maximum juice after being charged.  However apparently Martin has already  ridden on the bike 50 miles to break in the motor (on a single charge) and reported that those 50 miles (at low speeds) didn't use up much more than half of the available voltage.

Unfortunately for Martin, since he has so much experience and knowledge, I pretty much grilled him on just about every question I currently have about electric motorcycles.  He was even patient enough to tell me what a battery management system has left to do if a controller takes care of current to the motor and the charger handles current to the batteries.  (Can manage the batteries down to a cell-level, preventing damage from occurring due to a single cell being over charged or over discharged and provide monitoring information that also goes down to the individual cell level, while the controller is only dealing with the bike's array of batteries as a whole.)

At any rate, am fully stoked again and looking forward to the moment of arrival, to say the least!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 16, 2009, 09:57:57 PM
Martin delivered the bike yesterday, and I love the damn thing.  Now I just have to figure out how to drive it and how it works!

Martin had already put about 59 break-in miles on it, and had opened up the Etek-RT motor and cleaned any break-in debris out of it.  He had me drive it briefly to see if it was as responsive as I wanted, and at my request he used his laptop to adjust the throttle-up and throttle-down response times in the controller settings to make the bike touchier.  The bike is now set to be pretty sensitive to throttle twists, which on the plus side makes it feel nice and nimble.  The other side of the coin that you need to keep your throttle hand completely steady or can find yourself kind of jerking along.  I like having it set that way partly because focusing on keeping my hand steady kind of fills in some of the void left by suddenly not having any gears to shift.

I never really thought about how much I tended to use the engine to slow my XL350R down, and since my new bike has no re-gen I am afraid it might drive me a little crazy just using the brakes all the time. 

So far I have driven the bike around 44 miles.  When Martin and I first turned it on, the voltage was showing at about 82 V charge, and Martin told me not to drive it for more than 60 amp hours.  When I got off the bike last night the amp hours were at 59.6.  The voltage was still up and around 73 V.

The intended charger for the bike has still not been sent and I think that EM has really gone the extra mile as far as bringing the bike down to Los Angeles when the opportunity arose, and substituting an external, temporary charger to be used until the Zivan is shipped.  I am a little bit worried because at first Martin thought there might not be enough room left inside the fairings to mount the Zivan, but he kind of peered inside and saw some space and changed his opinion on this.  Having the charger mounted on the bike makes the difference between being able to charge the bike at only one location or being able charge the bike almost anywhere.

Connected the charger to the bike at about 8:00 PM last night (Surprised at how loud it is when it is charging.)  At 4:30 AM, unable to sleep, went down into the garage to check it out, kind of assuming that charging would be completed.  But the charger was still humming along.  DIsconnected the charger and turned on the bike.  The bike came up at 77 volts.  That was worrisome to me.  I turned off the bike, re-connected the charger and left it humming.  When I came back to check at 7:30 AM, the charger had gone silent and one of the red LED's on the charger had turned green, the signal that charging was completed.  Now the bike voltage reads 87.4 .  It seems strange that the charging process took so long and that most of the voltage increase was achieved in the final 3 hours.
Title: Insurance
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 01:32:29 AM
Want to report a good deal with Progressive Insurance that is similar to one a user named Richard 230 reported on El Moto a few weeks ago.  I already had liability coverage for my XL350R with Progressive.  To add the GPR-S to the coverage only cost 11 dollars extra per year.  And that was for comprehensive coverage, including theft ($500 deductible).  It took a bit of insisting (that others had reported insuring these bikes with Progressive) to get past the initial proclamations that they can't find the bike as being listed as insurable, but once it got to a supervisor level they figured it out.  I think one reason the insurance is so cheap might be that they need to record some kind of cc equivalent for the bike.  Since my GPR-S is pretty much similar to a 250cc bike, I gave that figure, and perhaps 250cc bikes are some of the less expensive ones to insure...
Title: Keeping Stats
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 09:36:38 AM
So over a course of about 11 hours last night the charger left the GPR-S with a charge of 87 volts according to the Cycle Analyst.  This very quickly dropped down to around 77 volts along the 11-mile route to work.  By that time, with over a hundred miles on the bike, I pretty much stopped babying it and drove in my normal careless heavy-handed fashion.  There was one flat long straight wide boulevard that allowed me to check out top speed.  The best the bike did was 58 mph.  At the end of the day another such test got up to 59 mph.  I don't know if I can legitimately hope that the top speed can still increase to the point there the bike could reach 70 mph on the flat.  But I would still like to think that is possible, though if it isn't I will still be glad to have this bike.

There seems to be a couple of voltage plateaus for the bike, where the voltage level just stays the same for a number of miles.  One was 77 volts, and the bike seemed to stay there from about mile 1 to about mile 20-25.  At some point between 20 and 25 miles, the bike went to another voltage plateau of 74 volts, where it stayed until around mile 38.  At this point I was driving the bike around a 1.25 mile loop running by my house so that when/if it started limping it wouldn't be far from home.  Around mile 38 the bike had used up 60 amp hours of charge, but the voltage was staying at 74.  Had to run the bike through about 7 more miles of loops before the voltage dropped down to a settling point of 68.8 (though going uphill at top speed was causing the voltage to sag down to a danger level of around 56 -- then it would rise back up to 68 after stopping).  At this point I had used 76.14 amp hours of charge according to Cycle Analyst, had gone 44.58 miles on that charge, and was getting those strange screeching sounds when applying the brakes that mean that the juice is definitely low.  

Hope Martin doesn't get pissed that I took the bike beyond the 60 amp hours he suggested.  But there were so much voltage left I felt the need to get a better feel for the limits by seeing for myself when and where the brake-screech would occur.  Hopefully everything will charge back up OK tonight and I will be kinder to the bike from now on.  I guess the lesson learned for me is that after the 60 amp hour mark there is a kind of 7-mile/16-amp-hour reserve tank that is available in a crisis.

Amp hours to get to work on 11-mile side street route: 14
Amp hours to get back home on same route (up the hill rather than down): 21

Cycle Analyst stats:
Wh/mi 119.7
Amin (peak negative current captured by the meter) -4.4
Amax (maximum amperage drawn from the battery) 280.2
Vmin (how much the pack's voltage drooped) 55.9
MaxS (maximum speed?????) 430.    
AvgS (Average speed) 30.0
Total miles  148





Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on September 17, 2009, 09:44:16 AM
Thanks for the updates. Congrats on getting the bike in your garage. Will you be able to tune throttle response on your own? Is that part of the owners manual?

On the subject of insurance, I was listening to a semi-newish episode of evcast today. A guest they had on joked that ev's may be stolen for their batteries as crooks catch on to their value. Hope this does not adversely affect insurance prices. Regardless, sounds like you got a great rate.

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on September 17, 2009, 06:41:23 PM
Guity,
     Congrats on finally getting your bike...Unfortunately EMC still has not returned mine.  And if Martin was on the road to deliver yours, then it somewhat explains why I haven't got a return email.

BretA
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 07:18:43 PM
Skadamo,

The manual states that the warranty is voided if you change the controller settings.  But after the warranty is ended, in a year, I guess I would be able to goof around with the settings!  For now I'm happy with the way it has been set.  Having Martin customize the setting to my taste was one of those smaller side advantages of dealing with EM.  I can't even imagine how impossible that would have been with Zero. 

I bet crooks will be going after batteries.  Right now I'm not sure stolen batteries would do the common crook much good, unless he was an Electric Motorcycle Forum or El Moto or V is for Voltage or Endless Sphere member.  But as soon as an easy-to-access-for-common-crooks market develops, security is definitely going to be an issue.  I guess pretty soon after that my rates will take a big jump!


Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 07:36:56 PM
BretA, I think Martin mentioned your delays during the course of dropping off my bike.  He felt really bad about the whole thing.  I guess a part of it was the tremendous bad luck of replacing the batteries a couple of times and each time finding out that the new set of batteries were bad as well.  I think I got the delivery because of the luck of my location, combined with EM feeling bad about some of the delays I was also going through (though my delays are pretty much dwarfed by yours, they were still driving me crazy).   Martin had to bring a couple of bikes down to the Hollywood dealer, and he also just stuffed a third one (mine) into the back of his pick-up truck.

My impression from Martin is that he is constantly on the move with a boat-load of stuff to do, and in the middle of all this he commonly opens up his email to see about 80 new daily messages staring him in the face.  So even when he was down here trying to arrange a time to deliver the bike, he never replied to my emails trying to confirm delivery dates and times.  EM should probably hire a customer service rep and a secretary/administrative assistant to help handle the communication aspect of the business...
Title: Thunder Sky Batteries
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
Bret, I think the reason your situation came up in the conversation with Martin was because he was trying to explain how great the Thunder Sky batteries are.  He was saying they are so reliable that you almost don't need a Battery Management System with them.  I think the primary reason he gave for this was that ThunderSky has automated the manufacturing process so that you don't get that human error every nth battery that eventually ruins an entire pack. 
Title: Long charge with temporary charger
Post by: guity on September 17, 2009, 09:16:49 PM
Wow after yesterday's battery-straining ride, the charger has been humming along for more than 12 hours now with no green light....


******************
Later note: checked again 90 minutes later and charge was completed.  So total charging time was somewhere between 12 and 13 1/2 hours
Title: Third day stats
Post by: guity on September 18, 2009, 09:59:49 AM
bike started day with 89 volts.  Drove it conservatively, used 12.6 amp hours going to work instead of 14.  Volts remaining upon arrival at work: 76.8
Coming back from work consumed 15 ah instead of yesterday's 21 (took the last 3-mile hill at 45-50 mph rather than full throttle).

End of day Cycle Analyst stats:
75.9 volts
25.5 miles
32.27 amp hours used
watt hours 2397.3
wh/mil 94
Amin -4.8
Amax 278.5
Vmin 69
maxs 463
AvgS 25.4
total AH 279
total miles 174

 
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on September 18, 2009, 10:06:57 AM
Man I love those stats. Will be cool to see them once your ride gets routine. Could probably get a feel for how weather affects them.

How long did it charge before green?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 18, 2009, 07:23:50 PM
Not sure -- it started charging around 7:30 PM, at around 4AM I opened the door to the garage and it had finished already.  Definitely didn't have as much work to do...

*********************************************************

Skadamo, sorry about that!  When I re-read your post i realized you were referring to the long charge that occurred night before last -- When I checked again about an hour and a half later that morning, the charger was done.  So the charging time on that long night was somewhere between 12 to 13 1/2 hours.
Title: Small problem -- SQUEAL
Post by: guity on September 18, 2009, 07:30:21 PM
It sounds kind of like an old time science fiction movie whenever a flying saucer hovers overhead changing pitch and speed with the speed of the bike.  Its gotten loud enough so it's a bit embarrassing in parking lots -- it also sounds like I'm doing cruel things to a bunny rabbit.

Can't tell if it is from the motor or from the wheels...It still happens when coasting down a steep hill, but perhaps the coasting causes the motor to still be moving?
Title: SQUEAL
Post by: guity on September 19, 2009, 01:16:36 AM
Spoke to Todd A today and he told me the squeal was probably from the old speedometer marker on the front axle.  He said if I put WD40 into the marker, in the little hole where the old speedometer wire used to go in, that it would get rid of the squeal.  Did it, but still have a squeal.  Maybe I need to lift the bike onto some cinder blocks and rotate things with my ear right next to them...

****************************
Yesterday I put more WD40 on the little white plastic former speedometer cable connector on the front axle, and paid more attention to the squeal, which has mostly now gone.  There still seems to be something that squeals in the 20-30 mph range (after 30 mph you wouldn't know if the squeal continued because it would be drowned out by wind noise) but parking lots aren't nearly as embarassing now.
Title: Setback -- turns out the charger can't be mounted on the bike
Post by: guity on September 19, 2009, 01:37:02 AM
Todd A told me today over the phone that the new charger, which should get to me in the mail next week, will not be able to fit inside the bike.  This leaves me in the undesirable position of always having to factor in the charger -- do I take it with me, do I leave it home?  But after I decide to leave it home, if some change in plans comes up later I don't have any flexibility left to re-charge away from home. 

Or, I could opt to always lug it around with me, but then I would always be worried it would get stolen or something.  Furthermore, the charger is not the Zivan I thought it was going to be.  I guess I will find out when it comes, but I think Todd said it was a 1500 amp PVA(?)-something.

Ideally, Todd should have warned me about this when we were determining what batteries to put in the bike.  I'm asking myself, what would I have decided had I known about the external charger?  I'm pretty sure I would have wanted those 60 ah batteries (it is their larger size that takes away room for the charger) even if it meant having to put up with an external charger.  Today I went to the doctor, back home, back to work , and will go back home again on a single charge, and will probably have some left over.  With 40 ah I might have been spending more time worrying about having enough juice to get back home than I will now spend worrying over charger logistics...
Title: Top Speed
Post by: guity on September 19, 2009, 02:52:36 AM
Took the 9-mile route to work today along the hectic Pacific Coast Highway between Malibu and Santa Monica.  Split lanes at a stoplight, broke out into the clear, and twisted the throttle all the way.  The speedometer showed 60 mph, but an "Are you speeding?" radar sign I passed showed 56 mph.  If that's as good as it gets, I can live with it, but I thought these things were supposed to get up to 70...Although the new charger should give me more range (I am guessing a 10% increase), I can't see how it would give me a higher top speed...
Title: Day 4 stats
Post by: guity on September 19, 2009, 09:02:49 AM
75.6 volts left
36.27 miles driven
52.71 ah used
watt-hrs 3808.8
whours/mi 105.3
aMin -4.1
aMax 292.3
vMin 62.3
maxS 58.6
avgS 32.4
1 hr 7 mins riding time
cycl  5
total AH 337
total mi 214

This is the first time the maximum speed has been intelligible, though I thought I saw the speedometer briefly hit 61 going home on the PCH

Used around 16 amp hours going home riding hard because route was 9 miles with fewer stops

************
Charge started at ~ 8PM, not complete at 4AM, complete by 6AM

***********
I feel pretty sure that the vmin of 62 took place in the evening at the end of the ride home up the 3-mile hill.  I could see the voltage sagging way down and the bike was more sluggish than I have seen it before on that hill.  Perhaps the controller was intervening and slowing the bike down because of the voltage sag.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on September 19, 2009, 10:41:20 AM
Are you spreadsheeting the stats?  I had originally started to log as much data as I could over time.  Sadly, my AC info doesn't display the same data as the cycle analyst.  Once I get the bike back, I will continue logging as much data as I can.

BretA
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on September 19, 2009, 07:53:29 PM
Hi Bret,

Any further developments or news about when your bike is coming?  I know you weren't in the same category with 4 of us who were waiting for battery chargers.  Apparently Todd A finally just drove over to Sacramento and obtained the chargers in person.  I'm glad he did it, but if I had known the chargers were so geographically near by, I would have driven up there myself to bug those people weeks ago.

When you say "AC", do you mean your AC motor?  What kinds of stats do you get from that?

I don't think I will put these stats in a spreadsheet, I was vaguely planning to do them daily for about a week or so and then less frequently until it seems clear that they aren't going to change radically.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on September 19, 2009, 10:41:28 PM
If EMS's schedule is correct, then my bike will be shipping back this week.  I'll hold off confirming that until I receive a shipping # though.

Yes AC means AC motor.  I have the 1st 72 volt AC bike of the GPR-S series.  ChuckJ ( On El moto) has the 1st 60 volt AC.  It was originally to be an 84 volt system, but batteries and charger logistics on the bike were not workable and as I do not have a garage, it would not have been practical to charge with a seperate charger.

BretA
Title: Day 5 stats skewed
Post by: guity on September 20, 2009, 07:20:01 AM
Day 5 stats are skewed because I drove the bike 16 miles then charged it 3 hours and when I drove it again, it had not charged to completion.  So I didn't reset the Cycle Analyst to register a new cycle.  About 51 amp hours into the day, I started getting the brake noise that means the juice is running out.  However, I actually had quite a few volts left (~76v) due to the 3 hour charge.  I guess the mechanism that generates that brake noise is reacting to the measure of  electricity used rather than electricity remaining.

75.7 volts left
40.01 miles driven
57.07 ah used
watt-hrs 4181.6
whours/mi 104.6
aMin -3.7
aMax 268.2
vMin 67.1
maxS 58.6
avgS 27.4
1 hr 27 mins riding time
cycl  6
total AH 394
total mi 254

*****************
Charge completed some time within 9 1/2 hours

max speed, though it is at least intelligible again,  is suspicious because it is identical to yesterday's AND because the speedometer showed a sustained (at least a minute) burst at 61 mph on the PCH fresh after charging
Title: (super)Charger?
Post by: guity on September 20, 2009, 05:31:27 PM
Examining the temporary charger provided by EM, it has an EM label on it and says it is "90 volts / 6 amps".  Todd A told me my actual permanent charger will be 1500 amps.  I guess there isn't a direct proportion between amps and charging speed or else the new charger would be 250 times faster than the temporary...

Bought a 25-foot heavy gauge extension cable to replace the 100-ft light gauge cord I have been using.  In the vectrix forum they had a lot of discussions about long cords being bad for either the batteries or the charging process itself, plus I just thought that if I was going to be charging every day, a heavier gauge cord might be more appropriate.
Title: Cycle Analyst settings (non-advanced)
Post by: guity on September 21, 2009, 01:50:46 AM
set units = mi
set wheel = 1790 mm
speed limit = 99 mph
amps limit = 500
low volts limit = 19
main display watts

It seems clear from this that the Cycle Analyst is being used for information only and not to limit anything, as all the limits are pretty much inapplicable to a 61-mph max machine that should not be driven at less than 68 volts (per Todd A) and has a controller that can only handle 300 amps.
Title: Day 6 stats
Post by: guity on September 21, 2009, 09:32:52 AM
The Amax and MaxS both look pretty screwy:

75.6 volts left
32.9 miles driven
44.66 ah used
watt-hrs 3259.9
whours/mi 99.4
aMin -4.4
aMax 312.4
vMin 67.1
maxS 469
avgS 28.2
1 hr 9 mins riding time
cycl  7
total AH 439
total mi 287
Title: Day 7 stats -- reached top speed of 62 mph
Post by: guity on September 22, 2009, 08:21:30 AM
75.7 volts left
27.83 miles driven
42.02 ah used
watt-hrs 3040.5
whours/mi 99.4
aMin -4.8
aMax 303.8
vMin 64.5
maxS 622.
avgS 28.0
59 mins riding time
cycl  8
total AH 481
total mi 315

Made the 9-mile route to work in 13.5 amp hours -- after arriving at work I briefly checked the statistics, and at that time maxS was at 58.6
Title: Speedometer/Odometer discrepancy
Post by: guity on September 22, 2009, 11:18:01 PM
Finally realized (partially) why, when there is an intelligible reading of maximum speed in the cycle analyst, that it is always about 3 or so mph below the highest thing I saw on the speedometer.  I have always looked at the speedomoter/odometer reading to get the speed, but this is a separate device than the cycle analyst, and when the speed is up in the 50's, there is a 3 mph difference where the cycle analyst is always 3 mph lower than the speedometer.  Judging from the relative speeds of the cars on the road, I would tend to guess that the cycle analyst is closer to being correct.  This would also explain why the speedometer was telling me "60 mph" one day but a "how-fast-are-you-going?" radar sign clocked me at 56 mph.

This would mean that the bike, at its very fastest, has not yet attained 60 mph...
Title: New charger has arrived
Post by: guity on September 23, 2009, 12:59:52 AM
The new charger is massive.  It made by Zivan, apparently, but then re-marketed in the U.S. by a company called ElCon (Electric Conversions TRaction Power Electronics) in Sacramento.  The  model I received says it is an industrial charger, the PFC 1500, 1200 watts at 115 VAC.  Just spoke to Martin over the phone about it, and Martin mentioned that the typical charger for a bike like mine would have been the NG1 model.  My speculation is that once EM figured out that the NG1 was not going to fit inside the bike, they opted for a really large one for unknown reasons.  (Hopefully one of the reasons would be that the big charger can charge really fast.)

The charger has a very short output cord on it, maybe 18-24 inches, so the only way I can charge is to set the charger on the seat of the bike with the output end as close as possible to the bike's plug.  I called EM (Martin) because once I plugged the charger into the bike plug, the led light on the charger glowed a steady red.   There was no mention either in the manual or in the text on the side of the charger as far as what steady red meant.  

The text on the side of the charger only states that flashing red means less than 80% charged, flashing yellow means more than 80% charged, and flashing green means 100% charged.  So I called Martin to see what steady red means.  Martin wasn't really familiar with this particular model of charger.  But his opinion was that the steady red meant the same as flashing red, which is that the batteries are less than 80% charged.  But Martin also mentioned that there is a specific order to plug things in, and that the last thing to be plugged in is the wall outlet.  Otherwise there is danger of ruining the charger.  

So I had plugged the new charger in, in the wrong sequence.  (I had plugged the charger into the electrical outlet and then plugged the charger into the bike plug.)  Oops!  Hope I didn't mess something up...

In the mean time, I spent some time peering in to the space between the top of the gas tank and the top of the highest batteries -- it is quite substantial.  Certainly not big enough for this charger (which is about 14" by 7" by 5.5"), but perhaps large enough for some smaller model which does not perhaps charge as quickly...

***********************
Went back to the bike after it had been charging for 30-60 minutes, and as I was watching it, the charger, which has grown significantly warm, started flashing red in 1-second intervals. 
Title: Bad start for new charger
Post by: guity on September 23, 2009, 08:32:00 AM
Upon return from an afternoon car ride, 6-7 hours after getting the new charger going, the green light was on steadily (rather than flashing).  Upon firing up the bike, voltage reading was a scant 87.7, a couple volts less than the temporary charger was achieving.  (Martin had predicted, and I had separately calculated, that the new charger would charge the 23 batteries up to their maximum 4.2 volts for a total voltage in the high 90's.)   Drove the bike a mile or so up the hill and back, to see what the voltage would look like when the excess was drained off -- around 78V.  This doesn't bode well for my hopes that the new charger would provide a 10% range increase...

Started the charger up again at around 7PM and will let it run all night to see if all the extra time will allow it to trickle charge a few extra volts into the batteries by tomorrow morning...
Title: Charger questions
Post by: guity on September 23, 2009, 09:15:58 PM
I am attaching some pictures that may help show what seems to be going on with the new charger.  The highest it seems to be able to charge the batteries to is the high 80's.
 
It appears that the charger is programmed to have 10 options of charging curves (shown in PFC 1500 Curves 40 percent.jpg) .  The only curve that fits with a 60 AH battery is curve 4, I presume, which appears to charge to 3.8v per cell (when I charged with it yesterday, it charged to 23 times 3.8v, or around 87 volts, a couple volts less than the small temporary charger).  
 
I don't know exactly what I am missing by not charging the cells to 4.2 each.  I did follow the manual instructions that you can see in "Choice of Charging Curve.JPG" and did determine that the red light flashed 4 times before it turned green, showing that it is indeed currently set up to use curve 4.
 
The "Choosing another Curve.JPG" picture shows how to change to another curve, but I assume that would not be safe because none of the other curves appear to be set up for handling 60 AH batteries. Otherwise curve 5 at least appears to charge the cells to 4.0 v...
 
One question this brings up with me is the big charger (I measured it at 14" by 5.5 inch by 7") can't fit in the bike, and doesn't charge to a greater capacity than the little charger.  I assume the big charger's only advantage is that it is faster.  But the little charger will fit in the bike and eventually charge to greater capacity.  So the question in my mind is whether there might be some other charger out there that can fit inside the bike, can better utilize the charge capacity of the batteries, and charge fast as well?
Title: the GPR-S dream road
Post by: guity on September 25, 2009, 04:13:53 AM
Today the GPR-S got to drive on its dream road, Topanga Canyon road, an alternate route for traveling between the beach and the Valley.  It's a twisty road that crosses the small Santa Monica mountains, lots of up and down hill, but you you can go for miles and miles without a single stop.  Starting from a full charge, here were its stats:

76.1 volts left
45.26 AH used
42.81 miles traveled
watt hours 3377
watt hours per mile 79
aMin -6.0
aMax 249.9
vMin 68.6
maxS 52
avgS 32.9
1 hour 17 mins driving time

Note the nearly one-to-one ratio of amp hours to miles, which is by far the best ratio I have ever gotten.  If I drove that road for the 76 amp-hours I used up on September 16, I probably would have gone for more than 70 miles.
Since the drive was probably 60% up or down hill, to me this points out that the killer for these bikes is the energy demanded to put the bike into motion again after a stop.   Nowadays I am looking way ahead for stop signs and red lights and letting up on the throttle way early, and mentally it is getting tougher and toughter for me to come to a full stop at stop signs...
Title: New charger stats
Post by: guity on September 25, 2009, 07:23:15 AM
After using up 45 amp-hours I hooked up the new Zivan charger and checked in on it every half hour.  By the time 3 1/2 hours had passed, the led was indicating charge complete.  Also, the number changed very quickly, but it appeared that the initial voltage reading upon turning on the bike was 99, which quickly dropped to 90 and then into the 80's...

******************
Note: next two days I paid VERY close attention to the cycle analyst starting BEFORE I turned the bike on.  Each time it was a 90 that came up at first, nothing more.  The 98 or 99 was probably wishful thinking...
Title: Top speed
Post by: guity on September 26, 2009, 08:26:18 PM
Going down the 3-mile incline from my place, frustrated that I could never get the bike to go more than 59 mph on the flat, I twisted the throttle all the way.  This is a hill that 10-speeds coast down at about 50 mph.  The motorcycle still only got up to 63 mph!  Is the controller limiting the top speed?  Is the gearing set up in such a way that it requires infinite amounts of energy to go faster than 60?  Is the motor limited to an rpm range that can only yield 63 mph at most?  With the throttle twisted all the way I was only drawing about 70 amps.  Then, when the incline got less steep, the speed remained at 63 mph, while the amps drawn increased to around 130...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: TK on September 28, 2009, 08:40:53 PM
63 MPH is what the bike is geared to for the best acceleration and range.  The bike can be geared anywhere between 45 - 70 mph however gearing to 70 mph will decrease acceleration and range some.  Changing the dive gear for higher speed is not hard however it is not good to gear up all the way until the motor has had a chance to break in.   

TK
Title: Re: Top Speed
Post by: guity on September 28, 2009, 09:42:53 PM
Nice!  Thanks TK!  How long does the motor need to break in?  Currently I have 454 miles on the bike and 675 amp-hours...

I really don't want to give up too much acceleration speed to gain top speed, so this isn't a no-brainer for me.  Maybe if it was geared to go 65 mph, that would not subtract too much from its pep off the line?  

Can you tell me what the present gearing ratio is?  I read in a couple of places that the "sweet spot" for a street bike like this would be 5 to 1.
Title: The joy of GPR-S
Post by: guity on September 30, 2009, 09:13:39 AM
In the last 2 months I have only driven my car once, for a short weekend vacation trip.  I have kept my 1984 Honda XL350R for hauling groceries, and to help me remember and compare between the two bikes.  I'm glad I did because there is a lot of sorting for me to do about what I love about the GPR-S and what I might love about any modern bike.

For instance it is is a huge luxury for me to drive on a bike with working turn signals.  It is equally luxurious to drive on a bike that doesn't have to be kick started.  But just about any bike nowadays has those features, so I can't recommend the GPR-S based on that.  In addition, my commute has been reduced from about an hour average round trip to about 40 minutes round trip.  Rather than parking several hundred yards away from the building where I work if I am lucky to find a spot, I now park forty yards away and so far have always found a spot during the worst parking period of the year.  But again, I could have achieved all these things with any motorcycle.

There is some irony that my commuting time has been cut down, because I actually would prefer to be driving the machine longer, rather than less.  I keep trying to compare the GPR-S to my XL350R to discover why I like it better.  The GPR-S doesn't sit high off the ground and afford a bit of a view like the 350, and it is threatened by small bumps in the road that the 350 wouldn't even notice.

But the GPR-S is much more attractive to drive than the 350, even though I haven't lost my attraction for the older machine.  It's not greenness.  I'm not that kind of guy.  If I get my recyclable plastic and glass distributed into the correct bins I tend to feel more resentful that I had to bother with worrying about that kind of crap rather than smug and self-satisfied about being "green".  

I'm pretty sure it is the noise and vibration, or lack of it, that really make the difference.  You can't ride a gas motorcycle if you don't get used to the noise and vibration, and sooner or later you associate the noise and vibration with an accumulation of bike-riding pleasure so that you start to feel happy at the roar of an engine just like Pavlov's dog drools when the dinner bell rings.  But no matter how much you associate that noise with pleasure, no matter how many times you feel like it's become such a part of you that you can't even hear it or feel it any more, it's still there.  Hundreds of tiny explosions are occurring immediately beneath your butt every minute.  It's brutal, primitive.  An implacable, roaring steel monster had to be summoned and commanded for you to enjoy your gas motorcycle ride.

But the battery-powered machine doesn't shake you and blast your ears.  It floats all smooth and effortless like a magic carpet rather than a quivering, snorting, armored war horse.  There comes a time on the 2 bikes, for me, though, when neither one feels much better than the other.  Around 50 miles an hour, the wind is blowing hard enough so the sound of the XL350 isn't much louder than the sound of the GPR-S.  At that point the bikes are almost equal, and as the speeds rise from there,  the XL350R starts to feel stronger because it still has a little bit more throttle left before it tops out in speed.  

But it's been a long time since I made up some lame excuse that I needed something at the store just so that I could go out and kick start the old XL350R monster...
Title: Re: The joy of GPR-S
Post by: skadamo on September 30, 2009, 08:47:36 PM

But the GPR-S is much more atttractive to drive than the 350, even though I haven't lost my attraction for the older machine.  It's not greenness.  I'm not that kind of guy.  

This observation is critical to the success of electric motorcycles. Really glad to hear it.

Thanks a lot for all the updates!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 01:28:43 AM
Hey Skadamo, thanks for the thanks.  I know I'm kind of just filling in blog space, but just in case some schmo like me is trying trying to figure out whether to buy an electric motorcycle, hopefully he can use all this as one more data point for or against...
Title: GPR-S
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 06:07:49 AM
Damn, I was googling gear ratio and it turned out the best thing for me to be looking at was on the Electric Motorsport web site in the parts section under "sprockets".   I'm thinking the default values in this file match my GPR-S as it is currently set up.  I guess the question is if I move the sprocket size up to 15 or 16, how badly does the torque suffer?
Title: Stats after 2 weeks
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 08:56:31 AM
This was done after driving to work and back.  Getting lucky at green lights got me through the 9 miles going to work using only a little more than 10 amp hours.

76.4 volts left
18.2 mi driven
25.19 ah used
1842.6 watt hours
101.7 watt hours/mile
aMin -4.0
aMax 257.4
vMin 67.8
maxS 511
avgS 35.8
30 mins 50 seconds driving
cycl 18
total ah 786
total mi 522
Title: Accident
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 09:36:19 AM
I feel kind of bad about this because even though I don't pretend to represent the EV community, I ran into about 3 cars in busy traffic tonight and anybody who noticed the bike was electric could not have been impressed.

I was splitting lanes to get to a stoplight and was about 3 or 4 cars away when the light turned green.  I started paying more attention to reaching a clear spot in traffic than to where my mirror and the cars' mirrors were in relation to each other, and I also sped up slightly.  My mirror clipped a car's mirror and perhaps something else hit and sent the motorcycle careening into the corner of an SUV ahead and to the right, breaking its taillight lens.  The careening had caused my hand to jerk the throttle which then sent the bike into the right rear corner of an SUV to the left of the first SUV.  I believe the bike struck the second SUV first with the bike's left mirror and then the tire, and sent me over the handlebars to splat flat against the upper rear corner of the second SUV, and then drop to the ground.

The bike fell down on the ground next to the passenger side of the second SUV.  I jumped up off the ground and for some reason all I could think of was that I had to pick the bike up and get it out of the way of traffic.  But in picking the bike up I was stupid enough to not hit the kill switch.  I twisted the throttle while wrestling the bike up off the ground, and the bike did what it is supposed to do, which is lurch forward.  This did the most damage of all, totally broadsiding the second SUV and placing a huge dent in its side.

Needless to say this was a total embarassment, and as icing on the cake it turned out that the owner of the car whose mirror hit mine is someone who is a co-worker (not high odds this would be the case in Los Angeles).  Paramedics were called, a cop showed up, and traffic was probably blocked for a huge stretch all the way back to the Santa Monica freeway and beyond.   

The bike has scratches on its lower left side, the speedometer was broken free of its mounting, and there was an ominous screech caused by the little metal bracket holding the speedomter/odometer magnets close to the wheel.  The bracket was bent inward enough so that it was causing the magnets to scrape against the wheel.  There were scratches all over the front fender and around the headlights.  The seat had been kind of half way torn out of its mount in the back.  There was a piece of the first SUV's taillight lens wedged between the bike's frame and the headlight fairing.  But the bike still ran and after all the information was exchanged and I assured the cop that despite a sore neck I didn't need any medical attention, I went on home.  Body-wise I was lucky -- sore hand, sore neck, scrapes on the forehead and upper foot.  Big bash mark just above the left side of the helmet visor, either from hitting the third SUV or hitting the ground afterward.

First street accident on a motorcycle.  Better be the last, or the next one might be the last without my getting a choice in the matter...

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 01, 2009, 09:47:43 AM
Glad you are OK, Wishing you had a helmet cam...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 11:16:07 AM
Thanks for the kind words picasso!  Heh!   Yes a helmet cam might have yielded enough future entertainment to compensate for all the trauma! 
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on October 01, 2009, 12:44:06 PM
Sorry to hear about that... Not sure if you could take comfort in knowing that you are not the 1st GPR-S rider involved in an accident.  Having grown up in California, I can sympathise with splitting lanes in heavy traffic, but its not something I ever wanted to do..

BretA
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 09:25:18 PM
Hey Bret.  Yeah, maybe lane-splitting isn't the safest way to drive.  Or maybe a simple rule would have helped, like don't try to split a long lane of cars when you arrive late to the light and don't know when it is might change....Otherwise, when everybody is stopped, and you're only going 5 mph, you should be able to avoid a fatal accident.   Luckily traffic had still barely started moving in yesterday's debacle.

Is your tracking number showing any progression of your bike toward your home yet?

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on October 01, 2009, 10:21:36 PM
Really glad your OK guity. Next time get your own a$$ out of traffic, f the bike ;) Not that I would not have done the same. lol. (Monday morning QB) Glad you had your gear on.

Maybe research needs to be done on a auto-kill switch when the bike is parallel to the ground. On second thought, that is a malfunction disaster waiting to happen. Never mind.

Thanks again for documenting all these details. I'm sure EM would like to hear about what breaks in a crash. You are still doing much more to help the EV community than hurt it.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 01, 2009, 11:50:20 PM
Thanks Skadamo.  Yes, you are right.  If I had just stepped off the road after nose-dive-sliding off the back of that SUV, I actually would have avoided about 95% of the damages.

One thing I am not sure of is spring resistance on throttles.  All the gas machines I have driven have much more spring-resistance than the GPR-S.  I don't know if all bikes are different in that respect or if the electric bikes just tend to have less resistance because instead of there being an accelerator cable involved, there is simply electrical flow to control.  But I really think that it would be helpful if a little more physical resistance had to be overcome to twist the throttle.  I'm not talking about making it so that only weight-lifters can speed the bike up, but just something that requires a little more effort to twist.

It kind of reminds me of younger days trying to ride dirt bikes in hairy terrain.  The first thing I would often do in a sticky situation was to grip the handlebars in a semi-panic.  This usually resulted in an increase in gas.  The roar of the engine would remind me that I was doing a bad thing, though by then the damage was usually done and I was already nosediving into a deep muddy ditch on a steep incline.  After all these years I find myself once again wanting to break myself of that panic grip habit, but no matter what I think it would help to have a little more spring-resistance in those throttles...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: frodus on October 02, 2009, 12:45:01 AM
I took my magura apart.... and wound the spring one more time, provided a better feel :)
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 02, 2009, 02:18:17 AM
Frodus I'm too dumb to even know if winding the Magura one more turn gave the throttle more resistance or less!  I'm guessing tighter = more resistance though...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on October 02, 2009, 07:33:37 AM
Guity,
   After a long wait, Im finally tracking my GPR-S back to Raleigh.
Title: Guity's Best GPR-S Policy
Post by: guity on October 03, 2009, 02:31:55 AM
The bike with key in the ON position is like a gun with a bullet in the chamber.  Don't get off the bike until it is powered down, and if you get knocked off the bike without powering it down, don't do anything else with the bike until you have hit the kill switch or turned the key off...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: TK on October 04, 2009, 02:14:13 AM
 Guity,

I am glad to hear your OK.   Thank God for helmet laws.  Flesh and bone can not be fixed as easily as metal, plastic, and fiberglass.   


Live throttle issues-
Live throttles have always been an issue for Electric Motorcycles.  In the TTXGP all entrees were required to have a big industrial push button kill switch on the tail section of the bikes so that if a track official had to pick up a downed bike, or assist a bike off the track they would be assured the bike was off first.  After a fall the throttles often stay live on petrol bikes as well as electric.  Sometimes when petrol bikes fall on the throttle side the motor revs and the rear wheel spins like crazy since bikes most often get laid down while still in gear.  The GPR-S like many new bikes comes with bar end protectors which would avoid such an occurrence.   The main issue is the throttle being active while the bike is sitting or laying silent.  Also the quick response for the Magura throttle which is the industrial standard for Electric Motorbikes.  Some people who like the feel of a standard throttle will use the existing throttle cable with a PB6 Style pot box.  Even this however has issues and requires a bit of adjustment and modification to get the right feel.

Any one have any suggestion on how to deal with this EV motorcycle issue.   In NEDRA we have to have a lanyard strap like on Jet skies.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 04, 2009, 10:43:50 AM
TK thanks for your concern.

I'm drawing a gun analogy on this because I sense that some electric bike makers are leaning toward having the controller slow down the response time to the throttle.  But to continue my gun analogy, the last thing a person wants is a gun that fires two seconds after the trigger is pulled.  On the other hand, the actual physical trigger shouldn't be a hair trigger that causes the gun to fire with too little pressure from the finger.  I think the same applies to electric motorcycles -- you can't really accelerate my XL350R without grabbing the throttle firmly and with intention.  But a fairly light squeeze will move the GPR-S throttle a long way, and it's easy to get nervous and squeeze that way in various situations on the highway...

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 05, 2009, 01:48:38 AM
Uphill/Downhill stats -- obtained by driving up and down the 2 3/4 mile incline between my place and Sunset Blvd:

75.1 volts left
52.9 AH used
37.37 miles driven
watt-hours 3817.1
watt-hours per mile 102.3
aMin -5.5
aMax 273.3
vMin 66
maxS 54.1
avgS 38.4
58 min 24 sec driving
cycle 21
total AH 908
total miles 613

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 05, 2009, 02:30:56 AM
Man I wish I could get a cycle analyst going on my Zero. Just to hard for me to tap center pack. Thanks for all the stats its helps for when I do a bike of my own and wish to go back and check efficiency stats. The Zero S is still tempting me.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 05, 2009, 03:56:35 AM
Picasso nice to see you back! 

I've been kind of hoping you might start building a bike.  Have thought about those hub motors this guy named "markcycle" has been working with and selling? 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7718&start=540 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7718&start=540)

My vote is you should get a dual sport frame, stick a hub motor on each wheel and in the middle stick as many 90AH Thundersky batteries you can dream up a place for, along with a couple of controllers, a dc-dc converter and a bms.  ... but I suspect you got plans of your own -- can you share them?

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on October 05, 2009, 05:11:04 AM
Guity,

I am glad to hear your OK.   Thank God for helmet laws.  Flesh and bone can not be fixed as easily as metal, plastic, and fiberglass.   


Live throttle issues-

Any one have any suggestion on how to deal with this EV motorcycle issue.   In NEDRA we have to have a lanyard strap like on Jet skies.

I think a lanyard strap would be the simplest approach on an Electric bike.  A more complex solution would be a crash circuit that would monitor the xy axis and crash and trigger if the tilt is greater than can be accomplished in a normal ride.  A few of the more advanced alarm systems use a key traansmitter that detects if the rider is on the bike.  Personally I would think it would be cool to not have a key and just walk up to the bike and ride if you are the owner with no visible key.

BretA
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 05, 2009, 10:31:21 AM
The Zero used to ship with a lanyard strap. As for when if I build a bike it will be based on small cells and not large cells. I ordered some headway cells to have a play a few months back but have yet to get them. It will be some time till I do a bike. I have another vehicle that is temping me to covert to EV.

And yes I've seen those large in hub motors. But I'm not to keen on them for a bike, I think a wheel Honda pilot like cart would be fun but not the sprung weight on a bike. But never I've never been on anything with that type of setup.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 05, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
What about the DS?  You mentioned the S but not the DS -- is that because your X already takes care of any off-road needs?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on October 06, 2009, 11:50:17 AM
Been thinking about the "live throttle" issue. Maybe a strip of dim but visible red LED's on the curve of the throttle cam cover that would glow when the bike was activated?

Maybe emitting a tone when the bike is laying flat and activated might be a good idea too. It would make crashing even more embarrassing. :D
Title: top speed, careless battery treatment re-visited
Post by: guity on October 09, 2009, 11:04:41 PM
I don't know, my careless treatment of the batteries on that 76 amp-hour cycle might be catching up to me.  Or maybe during the times when I let the throttle out I just happen to be fighting against a small headwind.  My top speed has drooped down about 3 miles, from 59 to 56.  At the same time I have noticed that the voltage level, that used to settle down into 77 early in a cycle and stay there for 20 or so miles, now settles quickly to 76 v instead.  I really hope I didn't kill a cell...

The voltage level after charging these days seems to depend more on how quickly I catch the green light of the Zivan.  I've gotten a couple of 90's, a bunch of 89's and lately 87's and 88's.  The longer it has been since the Zivan's light has turned green, the more time I think the charger has gone without sending any electricity into the batteries, and the more time they have had to let off excess.

***********************
October 12 Note: The top speed has climbed back up to 58, which is pretty much as high as it ever got on a consistent basis (saw a couple of brief 59's).  The probable cause: tightening of the chain, which had become ridiculously loose
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on October 10, 2009, 03:32:30 AM
Hi guity,
   Based on how my own bike operated, it really doesn't seem likely that you have a bad cell.  Your mileage would be greatly reduced as would your speed after so many miles.  Are you charging overnight or just for several hours and judging to unplug based on the light?  I am not sure with the BMS, at what point are you completely 100% done.  At one point in my debug process, I was encouraged to stay plugged in for 6 days to allow the bms circuit to charge and balance cells.  The only way to really gauge what your voltage is, was to unplug and read the charge after an hour or so, after things settle down...the voltage immediately after the charger is off it not the true pack voltage.
FYI - After my 6 day test, I was actually 2 % down rather than the overnight  charge.  I am making assumptions about the bms behavior as I understood it, as opposed to the charger operation.

BretA
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 10, 2009, 04:26:10 AM
Ahh, interesting -- thanks Bret.  Yes, so far I'm not seeing any great reduction in mileage when I drive.  I usually try to unplug the charger after the light goes green primarily just to save electricity.  I vaguely remember that you mentioned that 6-day charge before.  Maybe at some point I'll leave the charger on for the entire time I go on vacation or something.  So you are saying the charger is using information derived from the BMS to decide whether to continue outputting electricity? 

So when I unplug the charger at night it might be at 87v-90v.  But in the morning when I turn the bike on, the initial charge might be around 85v, and after driving 50 yards it is already settling in at 76.x volts.

Did your bike arrive?  Did it get assembled yet?  Are you officially back in the saddle?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: BretA on October 10, 2009, 05:05:21 AM
When I first had the bike, my high value after charging was 79.8, but after a short start it would generally drop to about 78 and stay awhile at 1st...Even when I had the failing cell, the spyglass would say the voltage was at 77, but trying to push further would show huge drops in power.  I did mostly always leave things plugged in overnight after the couple of anxious days.
    There is a lot about the complete BMS operation that I wish I knew more about, but I was under the impression that it controlled at the 2nd phase until all the batteries were balanced, which on any given day assuming your riding hard might take a little longer one day than another.  I also found that once the charger was green that I didn't seem to have any more power drawn from the meter ( I have my own separate meter with plug in the parking lot).
  Perhaps one of the more experienced guys could chime in, but Im not sure what type of operational behavior is being used by EMS's BMS.

I think I suffer under a continuous Murphy's Law..The motorcycle shop hasn't even attempted to unpack the crate.  Yesterday they said absolutely today, Earlier in the afternoon, they said "Oh we got swamped by incoming bikes ,maybe late afternoon or tomorrow, but basically said we will call you.  And of course they close on Sundays and Mondays. I hate not having a garage...

BretA
Title: Hiccup or harbinger of evil?
Post by: guity on October 10, 2009, 10:15:58 AM
Rode the bike about 31 miles using 41 amp hours today (but forgot to reset the cycle this morning on the cycle analyst so the reading was at 49 miles using 66 amp hours).  No problem until I got home and paused in my garage doorway.  I followed my policy of turning off the bike before trying to roll it into the car-and-motorcycle-filled garage to park.  Then I decided to put some more WD40 into the former (leftover) speedometer cable interface because squealing had come back a little bit.  

Turned the bike on again to run it slow checking for wheel squeals.  Knew there was trouble right away because soon after the initial flash that happens when the cycle analyst and the speedometer power on, the bike makes a single click (from the controller?) that tells you the bike is ready to move.  However, this time there was no click.  The same thing had happened this morning, but after I manually moved the bike forward a couple feet there was a click and the bike was ready to go.  

But this time moving the bike forward didn't evoke a click, and without the click, the bike was completely unresponsive to the throttle.  Not gimpy or hobbled, but no response whatsoever.  Turned the bike on and off at least 10 times, moved it back and forth a bunch of times.  Nothing.  Scary.

Just now, after the bike had been charging more than 2 hours, I disconnected the charger, turned the bike on again, and got the click and the associated bike response to the throttle.  

What the heck just happened???????  

1) The bike mis-reacted to the accumulated amp-hours on the cycle analyst? (doesn't seem likely)
2) The batteries have become so weak now that the amount I actually drove on this charge zapped so much of its energy that the controller refused to let the bike run at all (the voltage level was creeping up past 75.8 even as the bike refused to start).
3) Something evil has gotten into the bike...

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 12, 2009, 12:31:29 AM
Just did an experiment -- after the Zivan charged my twenty-three GPR-S 60ah TS batteries to 87.4 volts and finished, I hooked up the dinky little temporary charger that Electric Motorsport lent me before the Zivan was delivered.  After maybe 20 minutes I went down to check on the temporary charger, and it had a green light to signify it was finished.  The voltage when turning the bike on was 89.7.  I'm going on a long ride today and see if I can discern any difference in how fast the volts disappear...

...OK, drove the bike from the ocean down the (in)famous Sunset Blvd to Hollywood Electrics, the Los Angeles retail store for e-bikes, Zero motorcycles, and Electric Motorsport motorcycles.  There Harlan and Adam, the proprietors, drove the bike to see if anything seemed totally messed up with it, they inspected it for damage, and even addressed a couple of issues for me right off the bat without charge.

They felt the damage from the accident was mostly cosmetic and that nothing major seemed to be bent out of shape.  They made a list of all the parts that would need to be replaced to show to help them work with the insurance adjuster and with Electric Motorsport.  They loaned me a left mirror, which was a big improvement over the little compact mirror I had taped into the void left by the former mirror.  They checked the chain, which I haven't done since I received the bike 3 1/2 weeks ago -- man it was really loose!   Harlan tightened tha chain for me and when I drove back the bike really seemed to be responding more strongly to the throttle.  Will check tomorrow to see if this has any effect on top speed.  

Harlan also un-bent a metal bracket that holds down the seat and faux gas tank, and when they re-seated the seat and tank they both stayed firmly in place for the first time since the accident.  When I go back there to bring the bike for the insurance adjuster to inspect, I will bring my camera and take pictures of their shop and post them.

Here are the stats for today's drive:

75.2 volts left
53.36 amp hours used
41.16 miles driven
3860.0 watt hours
94.0 watt hours per mile
Amin -4.2
Amax 282.8
Vmin 62.8
maxS 48.8
avgS 30.0
1 hour 22 minutes driving time
cycle 28
Total AH 1158
Total miles 799

Strange, even though the voltage is not staying at 77 as long, on the other hand it stayed at the 75-76 level for more than 40 miles.  On September 18th I used 52.71 amp hours to drive 36.27 miles and had 75.6 volts left.  September 18th and today's stats seem fairly comparable, which to me means that perhaps I am not in danger of being placed in prison for battery abuse...

***********************
October 12 Note: The top speed has climbed back up to 58, which is pretty much as high as it ever got on a consistent basis (saw a couple of brief 59's).  The probable cause: tightening of the chain, which had become ridiculously loose
Title: Carrying stuff on the GPR-S
Post by: guity on October 12, 2009, 11:26:37 AM
The Fieldsheer product seems well made (see pics). You can do some unzipping to expand it a bit, but unexpanded it is big enough to hold a spare helmet and some change. It takes maybe 15 seconds to hook or unhook the bungee cords holding it to the back of the bike.
Title: Carrying stuff on the GPR-S
Post by: guity on October 12, 2009, 11:28:28 AM
Needed another post to get the third picture in...
Title: GPR-S Exposed
Post by: guity on October 12, 2009, 08:57:15 PM
When Hollywood Electrics took the GPR-S apart it became clear that there is indeed plenty of space for an NG1 to fit underneath the fake gas tank.  As well, it appears the bike does not have a Battery Management System per se.  I guess with this bike we are depending on the controller to protect from over-discharge, the charger to protect from over-charge, and the Thundersky batteries themselves...

I don't feel particularly worried about this and I don't pretend to know enough to question the judgement of professionals who put the bike together.  I do speculate that there might have been some kind of miscommunication where two people might have made key but independent decisions: one person may have decided that there wasn't enough room for an internal charger because of the 60AH batteries, and another might have decided that the batteries were takng up too much space, and therefore reduced the number of batteries from 24 to 23.  But perhaps there wasn't enough communication between the 2 decision-makers for everyone involved to realize that enough space had been opened up to allow an internal charger...
Title: Top speed improvement!
Post by: guity on October 13, 2009, 01:39:58 AM
After Hollywood Electrics tightened the very loose chain yesterday, had the opportunity to open the throttle out on the PCH this morning.  Top speed got up to 58 mph, pretty much as fast as it's ever been, with the exception of a couple brief glimpses of 59 mph.

Not sure why the chain was ridiculously loose after 3 1/2 weeks of use, hopefully it was a one-time thing.  But the difference in speed shows the importance of keeping an eye on the chain slack...
Title: Rain stats after chain tightened
Post by: guity on October 14, 2009, 07:59:22 AM
This was basically a drive to work and back skewed slightly by the fact that I forgot to reset the cycle analyst again until a couple hundred yards outside my driveway...

76.2 volts remaining
17.84 miles driven
21.16 amp hours used
1547 watt hours
86.9 watt hours per mile
Amin -4.8
Amax 242.1
Vmin 67.0
maxS 52.9
avgS 32.6
32 minutes 50 seconds driving
Title: Heavier rain stats
Post by: guity on October 15, 2009, 11:03:05 AM
Drove to work in a reasonably heavy rain.   The bike seemed OK on the wet pavement -- I didn't try to do any fast stopping and in return the bike didn't try to slide out from under me.  The super conservative driving (along with the tightened chain) resulted in going the 9 miles to work using only 8.5 amp hours.  The bike stood uncovered in the rain all day but didn't seem any the worse for wear.  These stats are a little more pure than yesterday's because the cycle analyst was reset from the very beginning:

75.9 volts left
18.09 miles driven
21.29 amphours used
1559.4 watt hours
86.0 watt hours per mile
Amin -4.3
Amax 208.8
Vmin 15.0 (???????????)
maxS 52.9
avgS 31.7
34 minutes 11 seconds driven
cycle 31
total amp hours 1224
total miles 853
Title: Spreadsheet
Post by: guity on October 15, 2009, 09:09:47 PM
Bret's suggestion finally sank in, and I made a spreadsheet out of the GPR-S Cycle Analyst data so it can be perused more efficiently.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 16, 2009, 07:44:31 AM
the lose chain part is normal, I had to adj. my zero a few times since new.

no bms at all is kind of a bummer, at least cell over voltage would be nice.

Electric motorsport has me tempted with its new line of scooters. The price didnt seem that bad.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 16, 2009, 09:39:42 PM
Picasso, you know a lot about these electric bikes.  You don't have time to build one right now.  You were interested in the Brammo for a while (which tells me that $12,000 isn't impossible for you, ((I think you actually mentioned you had some money burning a hole in your pocket))).  So what about this -- you think up the bike you want and the components you would want it to have on it, and ask EM how much they would charge to put everything together for you?
Title: Gold nugget when bike won't start
Post by: guity on October 17, 2009, 05:08:40 AM
Had a tough day with the bike, almost had to have it towed, but learned a good tip that made the trouble worth while:  When I was at the Hollywood Electrics shop, when I turned on the bike to drive it into the shop, and later when I turned on the bike to leave, the contactor wouldn't click on (as has happened before), and the bike wouldn't move.  The first time Harlan just pushed the bike into the shop from behind.  When I was leaving, the problem disappeared after a few seconds of jiggling the bike and the throttle and the ingnition. 

But about 20 miles later I stopped at a store for a coke, and when I tried to start the bike up it was dead again.  Spent about an hour trying everything from jiggling to turning off and on to rocking the bike and even removing the right side cover and finger-pushing wires to make sure they were securely contacting.  The bike wouldn't budge, even though the cycle analyst was showing as much as 76.9 volts (I had brought the big Zivan with me and was charging while at the Hollywood shop.)

In desperation I called Martin, who pretty much knew what some of the problem was but wasn't familiar enough with my bike system to know of an easy way to bypass it.  However, Martin called Todd Kallin, who did know, and relayed the information:  after removing the LEFT side cover, (which has one screw and a couple of snap-on fasteners holding it on) and looking underneath the controller, deep inside near the mud splash guard (on the inside of the splash guard of course) is the contactor.  The contactor has a round silver button-like protrusion on the side facing you as you look in, which can be manually pushed to tell the bike it's time to ride.  When you push it, you hear the sweet click that means everything is ready to go. 

Remember this one if you have a GPR-S, because it could save you a lot of trouble!  It might not work if you don't have a 2009 model, however.  But regardless, if nothing else is working, you might want to look under that left side cover...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 17, 2009, 09:10:36 AM
New revelations (revelations for me, anyway).  One is that the bike contactor  not "clicking" problem didn't strat occurring until after the accident, so the accident's impact might have caused a loose connection somewhere in the bike.

Another revelation is that I was always told that I was going to get a Zivan charger, and the Elcon PFC1500 I got was, I believe obtained from zivanusa, but now I believe it is not actually a Zivan-made charger.  

And another related revelation is that the reason I did not get the NG1 was not because of any kind of mistake by EM, but simply because the NG1's are backordered for months.  If EM had waited for an NG1, I still wouldn't even have my bike by now.

Not a revelation but a thanks to Todd Kallin and EM, because giving me the tip on the contactor bailed me out 3 or 4 times during a trip to Santa Monica this afternoon.  Instead of being helplessly stranded I was on my way in an extra minute.
Title: test for tomorrow
Post by: guity on October 17, 2009, 09:24:31 AM
Tonight I will leave the big Elcon PFC 1500 charging the whole night.  When I do this, then the next morning when I take the charger off and turn on the bike, cycle analyst always show 87 (or at most 89) volts.  These values are below the 90 that my 7234 Alltrax controller can handle.

Last night, I took the Elcon off the bike probably within 10 minutes of when the Elcon's light LED display light went green.  When I do that, that voltage level is always higher.  Last night the voltage level upon turning the bike on was 91.x volts.  I am wondering if that surplus voltage might have been responsible for causing problems with the controller making the contactor "click" today.  Tomorrow will supply more evidence one way or another.

Another possibility is that the accident jarred something loose, which is causing the contactor "click" problem.  However, today, after about an hour of turning the bike on and off, of jiggling and rocking the bike, and finger-pushing wires under the right side cover to ake sure they were firmly seated, the only thing that finally made the bike work was to put it back on the Elcon charger for a half hour.  Why would putting the charger on firm up a loose wire?

On the other hand, all my "click" problem occurred after miles if riding, when voltage levels ranged from 74 to 77.  What effect could last night's over-voltage have had on the bike today when voltage levels were quite reasonable?
Title: Test results inconclusive
Post by: guity on October 18, 2009, 04:31:38 AM
After taking the charger off this morning and powering up the bike, cycle analyst showed 85 volts which quickly dissipated to the 70's upon commencement of the ride.  The ride went 13.5 miles, and after parking for a couple of hours, again the bike started up without a problem (though the wait for the click did seem to be extended by a few beats).  Rode about 1/3 mile, parked bike again for about an hour, started up again without a problem (even more beats of delay before bike started up).  Rode the bike another 4 or 5 miles to Trader Joe's, and at this point the only thing that seemed strange was that after all those miles, and especally considering that my voltage levels have scarcely seen 77v or more recently, the voltage level was hovering at 77v on the way to Trader Joe's and at like 76.9v upon arrival.  Upon leaving Trader Joe's some guy started asking me about my bike and wanted to watch me take off with it, which of course meant that the bike was not going to start easily.  Waiting extra beats didn't seem to have any benefit, so eventually I manually punched the contactor button.  

Upon arrival home, turned off the bike and turned  it on again.  Bike was ready to go forward.  A few minutes later, I tried turned the bike off and then on again -- this time bike wouldn't start.  Didn't really want to go anywhere so I just put the charger on at that point.

I don't know.  So far there has never been a problem with the bike starting fresh off the charger.  I do get the feeling that the big PFC 1500 has some kind of invisible stage thing going on even though it only really seems to display either a green light or a red one.  Depending on how soon I remove the charger after the charger's light turns green, the higher the voltage shown on the cycle analyst.  Since I have been doing that a lot lately, I think I have been turning the bike on a lot lately when the voltage level is 90 or above, more than the high voltage cutoff, I think.

But why is it that problems don't seem to show up untill later in the ride when lots of volts have been used?  

I think my next step is to stop using the big charger for a while and go back to using the smaller slower temporary EM charger.  See if that has any effect on problem frequency...

Epilogue weirdness:  Went to garage to remove PFC 1500 charger and hook up small EM charger in its place.  It was too late for today, because PFC 1500 light was green and temporary charger light also showed green when it was hooked up.  Started up bike, and cycle analyst showed 91.2 volts.  Thought I heard the click, so just for giggles I gave a little twist to the throttle.  The bike lurched.  It was ready to go with 91.2 volts showing on the cycle analyst display.  I think I need to double check the specs on the 7234 Alltrax controller -- maybe 90 volts is not the most it can handle...  

Hmm... 90 volts is indeed the maximum for a 72 volt controller, according to the Alltrax website.  I wonder if I have partially fried the 7234 controller in my bike with my >90 volt charges?
Title: email to Alltrax
Post by: guity on October 18, 2009, 05:12:57 AM
Hi,

I bought an electric motorcycle with an Alltrax 7234 controller in it, and 23 Thundersky batteries which can potentially be charged up to 4.2 volts per cell (23 times 4.2 = 96.6 volts).  I was provided with a charger called a PFC 1500 which despite information in its manual, only seems to display a green light and a red light.  Sometimes I disconnect the PFC 1500 charger immediately after I see a green light.  

However, when I do this, the voltage level shown on my cycle analyst for the motorcycle is often >90 volts (up to 92 is about the highest I have seen).  But my understanding is that the max voltage the 7234 can handle is 90 volts.

My question is, do these >90 volt over charges damage the 7234 controller?  One reason I ask is that often in the last few days the controller, when the bike has been powered on, has not activated the contactor to allow the bike to start running.  I have had to manually do so.  So far this appears to be a spurious event -- hard to say when it will or won't happen.  The irregularity of the problem makes me wonder if the 7234 might have been damaged somewhat...

Thanks for any info you would be willing to provide on this issue.

guity

***********************
response on October  19:

Guity,

The controller can handle voltages to about 95v before you start to damage the controller, but anything over 90V will not allow the PWM output of the controller to turn on. The controller will power up and flash an overvoltage alarm, but it won't go anywhere.


Regards,

Alltrax
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 18, 2009, 12:37:41 PM
The Alltrax has zero to do with the contactor. Sounds like you have a bad contactor. Time to get a Kilovac. Can you take a pic of your contactor?
Title: Contactor pics
Post by: guity on October 18, 2009, 09:54:29 PM
Picasso, hope this helps.  The picture doesn't show any printed characters on the side of the contactor... I'm throwing in a picture of the triangular side panel.  There is really only one screw holding it on so it is not hard to open up.  The upper two points of the triangle are rubber/plastic snap-on connectors...Looks like I have to split these pics up to stay within the attachmeent limits...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 18, 2009, 09:55:39 PM
Contactor first pic
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 18, 2009, 09:56:25 PM
Contactor 2nd pic..
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 19, 2009, 07:27:21 AM
Using the charge that completed last night, drove to a couple of stores today (maybe 5 miles away).  Upon leaving the first store, the bike missed a couple of long beats but eventually reached the "click" stage.  At the second store the bike didn't seem to miss any beats at all.  A quick test after bringing the bike into the garage and turning it off, then on again, renedered no "click" problem.  Tonight the charge will be completed with the slower, temporary charger.
Title: Alltrax Response to email
Post by: guity on October 20, 2009, 01:48:36 AM
Guity,

The controller can handle voltages to about 95v before you start to damage the controller, but anything over 90V will not allow the PWM output of the controller to turn on. The controller will power up and flash an overvoltage alarm, but it won't go anywhere.


Regards,

Alltrax
Title: Stats and "click"
Post by: guity on October 20, 2009, 07:51:20 AM
Bike was started three times today, at home, at work, at store.  Started all three times but third time at store took some extra beats.

Hooked up the slower temporary charger again for tonight.

Stats in attached file
Title: > 1000 miles!
Post by: guity on October 21, 2009, 09:03:12 AM
Again, after using the temporary charger, bike was started 3 times without any "no-click" problem.   Again, the third attempt required a few extra beats.

Bike has passed the 1000 mile mark.  This thing is past due to get some credit for being a bit of a tough little thing.  It took a pretty good bashing against a couple of SUV's, went down twice, came back up twice, and kept on going.  I wouldn't call this GPR-S rugged, like the XL350R, but for some reason in the back of my mind I always kind of assumed that if that GPR-S ever came within 5 inches of the ground that it would be toast.  Not the case; the GPR-S has a little spunk to it!
Title: No click on third start today after charging on temp charger
Post by: guity on October 22, 2009, 09:27:07 AM
No click on the third start today.  Unscrewed the side panel and manually pushed the contactor button in.  Last night the temporary charger was used to provide the electricity.  This is the first time the "no-click" problem has occurred after using the temporary charger and is a good indication that the problem isn't something caused by the Elcon PFC 1500.  From now on, will go back to using the larger, faster, Elcon...

The temporary charger these past three nights has been consistent about providing an initial reading of 89.7 volts upon powering on the bike.

Can the impact of a crash affect a contactor?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 24, 2009, 11:48:31 AM
contactor's fail, I cant tell what one you have but the fact you can touch and move the plunger for it I bet it got wet and thats why it sticks. Killovac unit is sealed and wont have that problem.

The contactor is just a big switch. When you give it power the part you are pushing the pluger should move on its own and complete the circuit.
Title: no-click!
Post by: guity on October 25, 2009, 03:48:02 AM
Picasso, this could be, but I think EM is taking the careful route on this to avoid unnecessarily replacing an $85 part.  (I am speculating that this particular contactor is the Albright SW180L.)  I asked Hollywood Electrics if they (in conjuction with EM) are considering replacing the contactor and they said they have another theory they want to look into first.  (I get the impression they are figuring that some part closer to the point of impact during the bike's accident may be the culprit).  They asked me to use the kill switch from now on to power the bike on and off.

The bike seems to have fallen into a pattern of starting the first two times in a row without problem, then missing a few beats before starting the third time, and then fairly regularly requiring a manually induced click after that.  Today it kind of fooled me on the fourth start-up (at the store) by delaying the click long enough so that I actually took the side cover off to press the plunger.  But by the time I got my hand in there the plunger had already clicked into place.  Just for an experiment I tried to start the bike up again (# 5) in my garage after I got home, and got no click.  This time I didn't touch the bike, but left it on, just the way it was, for about 5 or 10 minutes while I did some other stuff.  I wanted to see if the bike plunger click just gets so slow that it makes me impatient and I interfere with it before it can actually get around to clicking.  However, after 5 or 10 minutes of being left alone, the plunger still hadn't clicked into place.

I'm not desperate or anything as long as I have my trusty screwdriver in my tailbag ready to provide a work around, so I have no problem with waiting to see if EM's theory of what is wrong bears any fruit or not.  We'll see after all the new parts are brought down to LA and put onto the bike...

Regarding your wetness theory, I have one peice of supporting evidence and one piece that negates it.  Tending to negate your theory is the fact that the contactor looks pretty dry and protected in that little compartment down there at the middle of the bottom of the bike.  (I wonder how hard it will be to take it out and put a new one in.)  One piece of supporting evidence is that there were two days of rain down here and one of those days in particular I drove to work and the bike was parked out in the middle of a pretty continuous downpour.  In fact, I am going to go back over these blog entries and try to make out if the problem started happening after those rainy days or before...

*******
Nope the "no-click" problem first occurred on October 9, after the accident (September 30) but before the rain storm (October 15)...  Let's see what EM has in mind...





Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 25, 2009, 04:01:31 AM
The top speed has dropped about 3 mph again.  I checked the chain, and it again appears to be pretty loose.  I will try to tighten it today and see if the top speed gets back to normal again.  But I wonder why the damn thing picks up so much slack in such a short amount of time?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on October 25, 2009, 06:00:28 AM
Should try a little blue loc-tight on the bolts/nutts that hold the chain tight.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 25, 2009, 09:17:17 PM
Looking at the manual again yesterday and saw a passage that appears to talk about what to do when no-click happens:

"If the GPR-S will not power on normally
after the ignition key and switch are
turned on, a 15a fuse between the
batteries and DC converter may need
replacing. A replacement is provided
with the fuses beneath the seat."

There are like 3 fuses beneath the seat and I checked all of them but there wasn't any sign that any of them had any kind of damage going on.  There was no replacement fuse.  I guess I will buy some replacement fuses and replace them just for fun.

About 7 miles into a fresh charge I let the throttle out on a stretch of flat just before the big hill to my place, and got a couple mph of top speed back (57 mph).  The test where I was 3 mph low was 20 miles into the charge.  I guess I also have to factor the freshness of the charge in when I test top speed...

Picasso, thanks for the tip about the loc-tite.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 26, 2009, 06:37:54 AM
Wow, it is hard to find these fuses.  Been to 2 hardware stores and Radio Shack.  They have 15 amp fuses that are a little bit longer with filaments that are long straight and skinny compared to the 15 amp fuses that came with the bike.  Maybe Pep Boys will have something more similar to the fuses I am trying to replace.  To complicate matters, today when I disconnected the fuse that seems most likely to be sitting between the DC-DC converter and the batteries, I could see where the glasss of the fuse is cracked.  I'm pretty sure that it wasn't cracked yesterday so that therefore I cracked it when putting it back into its plastic casing yesterday.  The bike still seems to work with the fuse in place, so hopefully I can get some viable 15 amp replacement fuses before the fuse gets so bad that it keeps the bike from running at all...
Title: 60 miles in one charge
Post by: guity on November 01, 2009, 03:40:38 AM
Stats for today are noteworthy because of the record mileage driven in one charge (60.21).   Thankfully the low voltage cutoff did not hit me until I got home.  I might not have even seen the low voltage cutoff, except that when I got home I still had 3 or 4 tenths of a mile to go to reach 60, so I continued up the hill for a few tenths of a mile.  That was when the cutoff hit hard and the bike was crawling up the hill at about 24 mph.  Ended up with 66 volts = 2.87 volts per battery.  The Vmin was 55.4 volts = 2.41 volts per battery (not supposed to go below 2.5).

For the first time the PFC 1500 charger blinked red when I hooked it up instead of showing a steady red light.  I don't know if this signifies a problem with charging or if it is the charger's way of saying, "Man you drained the heck of the batteries!"  The manual says the red light is supposed to blink -- but it never has until today.  Of course the manual also says that between the green light signifying 100% charged and the red light signifying under 80% charged, there is supposed to be a blinking yellow light signifying >80% charged.  I've never seen this light, though another PFC 1500 user, Djam has reported seeing it.  And, of course, until today, I haven't seen any of the lights blink except during initial diagnostics...

**************************

Note: about half an hour after hooking up the PFC 1500 charger, went down to check to see if red light still blinking.  It was, but what was worrisone was that the charger was barely even warm (under normal circumstances it runs quite hot, as it has no fan).  Figuring that the charger was declining to charge for some reason, I hooked up the old temporary charger.  It appears to be running normally so far.

*************************
11/1/9 Unhooked temporary charger (green light) this morning, turned on bike -- cycle analyst showed 89.7 volts -- the typical charge this charger delivers.  Looks hopeful that bike/batteries are OK...

Title: Latest, scary stats
Post by: guity on November 06, 2009, 08:33:04 PM
The latest stats are scary because they show a normal commute, which would almost always end up with around 76 volts remaining, ending up with 70.3 volts.  The two apparent variables at play here are:

1) The bike was charged Saturday night but not driven until Thursday morning (4 days sitting). 
2) The bike was driven for 60 miles/75 amp-hours Saturday, the PFC 1500 charger apparently refused to charge the bike, blinking red and not heating up.  The temporary charger charged the bike and signalled a complete charge Sunday morning and the cycle analyst showed 89.7 volts upon completion.

If the bike moves back up to normal voltage levels today, then maybe the voltage drop is an anomaly associated with 4 days between charge and use.  If the bike still drops to 70 volts after the 18-mile commute today, however, then perhaps the batteries got messed up by the 60-mile cycle...
Title: Scary Stats II
Post by: guity on November 07, 2009, 09:29:53 AM
The stats for today show a continuation of the overall voltage drop problem.  Have to assume the batteries are messed up.  Emailed Hollywood Electrics.  They wanted me to stop riding it.  Hollywood Electrics is going to pick up the bike tomorrow afternoon. 
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on November 10, 2009, 01:38:43 PM
Any word yet? How many cells are getting replaced? As for waiting 4 days after you charged/road. After on the charger for my Zero I drop about .2-.4 volts a day for the first 3 days. Not sure what happens, It has no balance so Im unsure what happens to the charge i have a loss of.

I wish I had a real active BMS and even a cycle analyst. And again thanks for the stats.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on November 10, 2009, 09:06:18 PM
Picasso no word yet, mainly because everything is on hold until Martin drives down to LA with a bunch of parts and equipment (mainly for fixing accident damage but also for chacking/balancing the batteries).  I think Hollywood Electric was desperate to get the bike away from me as quickly as possible before I damaged more batteries.

I'm kind of thinking this is an opportunity -- since I have no BMS and no on-board charger, the only factors I have to worry about as far as throwing extra batteries on the bike is the controller and the motor.  The batteries cost $120 apiece, and I am hoping this will be a matter of replacing one or two, and then I have this secret hope to add one or 2 more batteries to get up to 24 or 25.  Probably would need a new controller to do that, since 24 X 3.8 = 91.2 volts and the 7234 alltrax is supposed to refuse to turn on if it sees more than 90 volts...
Title: Tina Fey/Sarah Palin: Time to go Rogue?
Post by: guity on December 02, 2009, 12:26:48 PM
Looks like I painted myself into a corner with the GPR-S.  The good news is there are apparently only 2 bad batteries (this is GOOD because I feel that is a relatively mild amount of destruction), and further good news is that there were always 24 batteries in the GPR-S, but EM only hooked up 23 of them.    The bad news is that all the batteries swelled so much that the Hollywood Electrics technician couldn't get the bad batteries out of the fixed metal trays they sit in.  It was so difficult to remove the bad batteries that HE/EM decided that the bike should just run on 22 batteries from now on.   They hooked up the one battery that was unused before, and unhooked the two bad ones.  Furthermore, to make sure I didn't abuse the batteries any more, they set the controller to have a higher Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC).  Tonight, coming up the last 3-mile hill to my house, I was in the 30-37 mph range, ending at 32 mph.  This is not safe because large SUV's on that road have a history of cruising at 60-80 mph up that 4-lane hill road and running over smaller vehicles that might otherwise slow them down.

So I'm in a bit of a corner.  The bike isn't much good to me in its present state.  Today's back and forth commute, 18 miles, which ended up in the 32 mph limp, was all of the riding I did today.  So at this point the bike can't even do my commute effectively, pretty much negating its primary purpose.  I am paying the price for being a battery abuser.  I think what I need to do is take the maintenance of the GPR-S into my own hands and get all 24 batteries hooked up and running.  However, EM/HE is letting me know that to do so will void my warranty.  I'm not fond of voiding the warranty, but I think the big mistake I made was abusing the batteries in the first place, and now there aren't a lot of better options available.

It might be for the best at any rate.  I am beginning to see that a few decisions that EM made when putting the bike together are just not compatible with what I would have wanted if I had been consulted about them, and if I had known what I know now, after so much reading in some of these EV forums.  The three main examples of this is that EM decided not to mount an onboard charger on the bike, not to put a BMS on the bike, and placed 24 batteries on the bike but only hooked up 23.  I don't necessarily disagree with any of these decisions, but I think that with a little more discussion and perhaps a few more bucks forked out on my part, the bike could have turned out to be a more appropriate bike for my particular needs.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 03, 2009, 05:38:10 PM
Odd that it will void your warranty to hook up the unused one. Did the warranty cover replacement of the two bad cells? I would guess those guys will since it was them who set the low voltage cutoff? It will take some more cells till you get a good and matched pack with discharge and charge since you have no BMS.

But again Zero still dosnt have one on any of its bikes, just low voltage and over charge. It also records when its been taken down low to tell zero if you abused it or not. But all the Zero bikes pre-dongle that was sent out might have tripped it because the pack was still allowing discharge.

As for the swelling this has me worried. Im sorry if it was stated but what cells are in your bike now? What color? Not compressed in the holders?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 03, 2009, 09:37:26 PM
Hey Picasso -- The batteries are yellow Thundersky 60 AH.  Actually what I am proposing to do is open up the bike and use a drill to poke holes in the two dead batteries to release the gas that is swelling them up.  I am hoping that if I "pop" them, they will shrink enough so they can be removed from the tray.  Then I am hoping there will then be enough space to put new (unswollen) batteries in their place.  My drilling operation is what EM doesn't like.  My understanding is that they don't think it is worth the risk that the new batteries will be unable to fit into the tray.  I don't think the risk is that bad, because at worst I would need to replace 4 batteries in each of the 2 trays (wish the bad batteries had been in the same tray but NOT).  It looks like EVComponents is selling them for $66 apiece, so that is a $500 risk, which doesn't seem like a daredevil risk or anything.

However, if I manage to hook up a pack of 24 working Thunderskies, I get into new problems.  If they are charged to 3.8 volts apiece they will add up to 91.2 volts.  But my 7234 Alltrax controller is set up to play dead for anything more than 90 volts.  I was kind of hoping though, that either the charger wouldn't charge the batteries beyond 90 volts or if it did, a volt or two could be drained off reasonably quickly by turning on the bike/headlight.  But again, I feel like the risk is worth it, and worst case is I am forced to buy a higher-volt controller...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 04, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
I say dont touch it, It's up to Electric Motorsport to correct the problem. It was them who set the low volt cut off. Stay in your warranty!

If you drill make sure to drain all power out of those cells first. Chances are the other cells next to it will expand when you remove the bad one. Getting them back in might be another game.
Title: Ode to Picasso
Post by: guity on December 04, 2009, 09:12:09 PM
Well I am loath to run afoul of any advice you have to offer Picasso.  However,  I'm not sure the warranty is all that important at this stage.  The bike has been driven almost 1300 miles and shows no signs of being a lemon.  The only significant problem, with the batteries, can't/shouldn't be covered by the warranty because I abused them. (I  sort of felt bad because the Hollywood Electric techs put a lot of time-consuming labor into addressing the battery problems anyway.)  

I'm just not sure the warranty is so valuable any more.  Right now the bike's top speed is 53 mph, and as I mentioned, it can't really complete a satisfactory commute.  I charged the bike before I took the latest cycle analyst readings, so the voltage remaining reading is no good, but the latest stats show the unsatisafactory commute sucked up 30 ah instead of the usual 22 or 23.  I don't think the top speed or the over-sucking of amp hours will be helped by adjusting the lvc, but I think they might be helped by an extra battery or two.  And it looks like I would be the natural choice of candidate to perform the time-consuming labor.

If the 2 new batteries don't fit in, I'll just have to save up some money to buy enough batteries to replace all of them in the trays.  If/when I get the batteries in place, would you be able to advise me on getting them married into the pack and balanced?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 05, 2009, 04:00:22 PM
Well I think its time to learn to work on your bike. By warranty I'd at least attempt to get parts out of them. You should never feel you abused your pack. Those guys set the limits on you, But my gut tells me you had some wonk or undercharged cells and that is what happened. Not you taking it down, had that been a balanced pack your should have been fine doing that one time. But you did take it far. Not that I did any math but just going off my gut and looking at your posted logs. And again thanks for those! I like real world numbers. Keep in mind I'm just and arm chair EV fan. I've yet to build my own bike. But have played with a few "ev" things and do way to much reading.

At this point I'd save for a BMS from elithion.
Some good reading about different BMS systems over at http://liionbms.com/php/resources.php (http://liionbms.com/php/resources.php)

Next I'd get new cells that fit what you have now. And because Im crazy I'd add a controller thats over kill. I like the soliton 1 but I've yet to see many reports on its use. Zilla production is also back in swing thanks to the guys at evcomponents.com It was sad to watch others take market because the guy who made those cared so much he wanted to hand-build them himself. Got to love a man with that kind of dedication. And just dial the sucker down to what your cells can support.

I'd go headway based cells but since your bike is built out for the thunderskys you kind of stuck in the footprint and it makes getting some of the off the shelf headway configs out of the contending.


frodus is the headway nerd. I'd watch what he does with his bike. Most batt talk tends to be on this forum here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14)
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 05, 2009, 11:30:06 PM
This morning I took the bike down the hill and brought it back up with an open throttle.  It was fully charged, but had been sitting 3 days not plugged in. 

For most of the trip back up the hill the bike was drawing between 140 and 180 amps and was moving at perhaps 45 mph at most.  For the last half mile or so, the amps drawn dwindled down to the 100-120 range, and the speed dropped to around 38 mph.  I was being cut off within the first 5 miles of driving the bike!  When I got back to my house the voltage remaining popped back up to 72.9 fairly quickly, a little more than 3.3 volts per cell. 

The cycle analyst stats for that trip showed I had driven 4.7 miles and used 10.18 AH, 637.97 watt hours, for an average of 134.7 watt-hours per mile.  It showed I had drawn a maximum amount of amps of 271.3, and had at some point sagged to a lowest voltage level of 55.2 volts (2.5 volts per cell, the danger zone).  My max speed had been 58 (that was going downhill), average speed 39.8 mph.

The fact that the bike voltage sagged down to the danger zone makes me think two things -- 1) The low voltage cutoff isn't really set too strictly, because I really don't want to hit voltage levels below 2.5 volts per cell. 2) if I shouldn't be easing off on the low voltage cutoff level, the  only other thing I can think of to get that bike up the hill without limping, is to get the 23rd and 24th batteries going
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 05, 2009, 11:42:28 PM
22 batteries should not have their cumulative voltage drop below 22 * 2.5 = 55 volts.  24 batteries should not drop below 24 * 2.5 = 60 volts (all of this assumes a blanced pack).  With 22 batteries my operating voltage at 3.3 per cell is 72.6 volts .  With 24 cells it is 79.2 volts.  If the hill I live on causes a voltage sag of 18 volts from the 72.6 volts, then the cells are dipping down to the 54.6 level which would require low voltage cutoff.  But a voltage sag of 18 from 79.2 is 61.2, still above the 60 volt low cutoff voltage for 24 cells...
Title: Slight slow progress
Post by: guity on December 06, 2009, 03:42:56 AM
This is as far as I've been able to get so far.  The most accessible tray is out, and I am working on the dead cell in the tray.  Every battery in the tray measured 3.6 volts on the multimeter, except this one measured 0.  When I first pierced it, it hissed for a bit and then started smelling.  I drilled holes in it and threaded some coathanger wire through the holes and managed to pull it up out of the box about an inch.  It doesn't seem much inclined to go any further...

Note a slight miscalculation on my part: there are 9 batteries in this case that will need to be replaced if this goes wrong, as opposed to 4!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 06, 2009, 04:32:16 AM
Please!@ do this first. take a pic up the connection layout and take off those bus bars. Or tape the shit out of it, Never ever work with a pack connected like that. Im glad to see shrink rap on some but still one drop of a metal item and the rest of that pack is toast.
and WOW does it suck to that that lip right in the way for you to remove it that cell.


I've never let the gas out of that style cell, I would have guess it would not off gas that much. I've only ever seen the pouch style puff up.  And thats also all I've worked with cept my little headway pack.

Glad to see you are getting into the bike. My shop is always open should you wish to fab some items. But as you know Im up in SF bay. But should you need can always come up and fab. I've got a great tool collection.
Title: Hack-a-rack
Post by: guity on December 06, 2009, 06:20:58 AM
OK, so I resorted to what I usually resort to in basketball and golf -- except this time I actually had a saw...
Title: Hack-a-rack 2
Post by: guity on December 06, 2009, 06:21:52 AM
From straight above...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 06, 2009, 06:23:58 AM
Your tools would really come in handy becuase the main problem here is not really the batteries.  It is this fixed metal box.  There should be like a couple of plates that can be strapped and bolted into place to hold these batteries tight, but also loosened and removed when needed.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 06, 2009, 07:29:12 AM
Craiglist should find you someone to get to weld up that box. How are the other batts on the bike? trays like that? Do you have a volt meter to check those other cells? You will have to balance your self after you get a new cell to bring them all up the same.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 06, 2009, 09:05:14 AM
Picasso I have a multimeter and it is showing the 8 other batteries in the case to be equal, all at 3.6 volts.  I bought this single cell charger for about 12 bucks off ebay for lifepo batteries that will charge a single cell to 3.65 volts.  By the time I am ready to start balancing I imagine all these batteries will be somewhere below 3.65 volts, so maybe just before I stuff them all back into the bike I can charge each battery individually to 3.65 volts to make them all equal?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 06, 2009, 12:20:18 PM
Yes that would be a good idea.

Would not hurt to add some wires to each cells + for later when you wish to look at each cell still in the bike. A BMS will later give you this option, but for now it would be nice to have a tap to each cell to take a look now and again. You might want to hit the endless-sphere.com about your options for a cheap BMS so you can watch your cells. One that will balance is allot more $$$.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 07, 2009, 03:46:37 AM
OK, the other bad battery is now out of the bottom, least accesible case.  It came out in pretty much the same way, hacksawing through most of the corner of the case and yanking at the clothes hanger wire strung through holes drilled in the battery. 

Picasso, I don't think I want to weld those boxes back for two reasons: 1) the other batteries are still in the case and 2) I think it would be a bad idea to go back to the old system.  I would be pleased as hell to find some sort of super straps that could tighten around the case to pull it closed as much as possible, but then also be loosened and opened when needed.

I guess I should have ordered a couple of replacement batteries a long time ago.  I just placed an order with EV Components but received a message back that the guy just got out of the hospital and is swamped with orders.  So I have no idea when the replacement batteries might arrive.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 07, 2009, 05:12:29 AM
These guys are dirt cheap and I get stuff from them all the time. A device like these might work good. https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009120617092492&catname=misc&keyword=XTTT (https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009120617092492&catname=misc&keyword=XTTT)


What also might work is to put a big piano hinge on the side. And when you need to open it take out the long pin for the hinge. It will be real fun trying to line it up and compress it back.
Title: Ordering stuff
Post by: guity on December 08, 2009, 09:25:07 PM
Tried to order 2 60 AH batteries at EV Components for $66 apiece, but they didn't have any in stock, and the next supply doesn't come in until February.   But the EVComponents people were really nice.  They steered me to Jungle Motors in San Juan Capistrano, CA.  Jungle Motors sold me the batteries, to be shipped today, for $83 apiece.  Also bought a cable from Monoprice, (the best damn place to buy computer cables in the universe) that has a male serial interface on one end and a USB interface on the other.  The serial interface will plug into the Alltrax controller and the USB will plug into a computer.  Unfortunately I have no laptop so will have to disconnect and lug entire desktop down to garage when time comes to set controller.

I was trying to tell the Jungle Motors guy that I also needed to order one of those metal bars that appears to be copper but is covered with rubber-looking insulation in the middle and is used to connect each cell together serially.  But the guy said they are called "battery straps" and one comes standard with each battery.

And then for grins I purchased some ratchet straps for $20.  I'm thinking that if they can be placed in the right way where there is space for them to fit with all the other parts of the bike, they could close those hack-sawed metal cases back up...maybe not, I'll see.
Title: Contraption to drain battery voltage?
Post by: guity on December 11, 2009, 01:37:27 AM
Does anybody sell cheap gizmo's to drain battery voltage, or does each individual have to solder together a bunch of wires and resistors to make one, or hook the battery up to wife's hair dryer?
Title: Battery Plan A
Post by: guity on December 12, 2009, 06:41:26 AM
Plan A

1) Put cinder blocks underneath the bike to raise the rear wheel off the ground -- should be easy with no batteries currently in the bike

2) Arrange the battery cases containing the 22 surviving batteries next to the bike and hook all the wires up between the packs and between the packs and the bike

3) Run the bike with the rear wheel raised off the ground until the 22 batteries are drained down to 2.8 volts each

4) Charge the 2 new batteries to 2.8 volts and try to cram them into the open spots in the cases, hook them up and then try to cram the bulging hack-sawed cases into the bike and get everything hooked together

5) charge the 24-battery bike to 24 times 3.75 = 90 volts

6) Turn on the bike and see if anything explodes

Possible variation: keep the battery cases outside the bike, continuing to run the raised rear wheel for a couple of cycles even after the new batteries are in place, so that all batteries can be easily monitored to verify their voltages aren't wildly different...
Title: Battery Plan A sucks
Post by: guity on December 13, 2009, 03:27:03 AM
Plan A is a total flop. I was going to drain the batteries of voltage by running the motor at full speed while the bike was suspended in the air. Then I was going to join the 2 new batteries in at the same low voltage (2.8 volts apiece) and charge all 24 of the batteries up and then run them all down again once or twice to make sure they all kept the same voltage.

But when the rear wheel runs without traction at full speed, it only draws about 10 amps. So I would probably take hours and drive my neighbors crazy before I ran the batteries down to 2.8 volts apiece. So I guess I am going for plan B: charge the 22 batteries up to around 3.7 or 3.8 volts apiece, and charge the 2 new batteries individually up to the same amount, and then try to put everything back together again.

But with Plan B I will be stuck with having to take the battery cases out every time I want to check the individual voltages on the batteries, which is fairly hellacious...
Title: Replacement battery appears to be bad
Post by: guity on December 13, 2009, 09:56:51 PM
It looks like one of my two replacement batteries is bad. At first I thought it was my $11 little Tenergy lifepo single cell battery charger, because I put the battery on it (or maybe I put the charger on the battery) all night and the battery only got up to about 3.5 volts. That was the first time I had used the charger so I assumed it wasn't any good, or at least it was so slow that it was useless.

But now I am using it with the other batteries and it works pretty good - charges them up to 3.75 volts and then stops automatically, and since they are already up in that voltage area anyway, it doesn't take very long. I guess I will just run the bike with the rear wheel suspended to take all the batteries below that 3.75 ceiling and then use the Tenergy to take each battery back up to 3.75 individually. Then replace the replacement battery, and maybe the bike will be good to go...
Title: Balance?
Post by: guity on December 14, 2009, 10:12:07 PM
The charge output of this little Tenergy lifepo charger is specified to be 2 amps (and a pre-charge current of .5 amp, and cut-off current of .2 amp).

I used the regular charger to charge everything to the top -- it looked like this:

3.9----------3.8----------3.75
3.8----------3.9----------3.9
3.9----------3.8----------3.7

3.7----------3.8----------3.7
3.9----------3.7----------3.8
3.8----------3.9----------3.9

3.55---------3.9
3.7----------3.9
3.9----------3.8

(the 3.55 is the (apparently) bad replacement battery).

After the general charging, I ran the bike with the rear wheel raised to take the pack down a few volts so that every cell would be less than 3.75 volts. Now I am going through each cell individually and using the Tenergy charger to bring each one up to 3.75 volts (though 3.75 volts doesn't look much different than 3.8 volts on my multimeter).
Title: Slight improvement
Post by: guity on December 14, 2009, 10:13:32 PM
It took a long time to go over 23 batteries with the single cell charger, but the numbers smoothed out a little bit:

3.7--------3.7-------3.8
3.7--------3.7-------3.64
3.64------3.68------3.64

3.64------3.64------3.68
3.68------3.64------3.64
3.64------3.64------3.64

3.55------3.7
3.64------3.64
3.7--------3.64


The 3.8 in the top right corner of of the first 9-cell pack is because the measurement was taken immediately after that last battery was taken off the Tenergy charger. All the rest of them settled down to 3.64 -- 3.7 after a few minutes, so I assume that top right corner cell has settled down as well by now.

I'll leave the Tenergy charger on the 3.55 cell all night and see if anything good happens...
Title: "Bad" battery might be OK!
Post by: guity on December 14, 2009, 10:17:58 PM
The Tenergy still isn't done charging the "bad" 3.55 volt battery, after 11 hours.  However, the voltage of the battery has climbed to 3.7, so the battery isn't really "stuck" at 3.55.  If the "bad" battery turns out tobe good then maybe I can run the Tenergy charger over the batteries again to see if I can get cell voltages closer together.  Then perhaps I can run the motor (and perhaps just leave the headlight on all day) to run the charge down a ways to see if the batteries are staying even...
Title: "Bad" is "Good" -- both new batteries work!
Post by: guity on December 16, 2009, 02:54:28 AM
Now 4 main tasks left --

1) get the battery voltages as equal as possible
2) run 25 wires from the positive terminals (and the last negative terminal) of the batteries that are long enough to reach to the space under the gas tank, thereby allowing the batteries to be checked for voltage and charged or drained as necessary without having to remove the godawful trays
3) schlep the computer downstairs and set it up next to the bike and connect to the controller
4) try to remember how to re-assemble the bike
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on December 16, 2009, 10:11:25 PM
You can build a board of light bulbs for large multi cell loads and for single cell a low volt light is always fun like an old 6volt car spot light. It will be dim but is a nice glowing load so you know its on. I've also seen guys use toasters for a load, basic toasters. the endless-spear forum should have a good number of options. Please report back what you find. I've never looked into that yet. The cells I deal with are in a pack and I have a tester to drain them out and cycle. I have a ton of cells around in many states of charge. Sorry didnt keep up was away for a bit. 

For the cells taps you can run them into a small pelican case case to keep water and metal away from them. For now you can use stuff like this http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032289 (http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032289) and just stuff it in a box

Also it might not be a good idea to run the motor with no load for extended times. Id ask Electric moto about that one with your motor.

And if you want a good deal on a laptop I will give you one at a price you will love. I have a few OQO computers around. Its about as small as you can get.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 17, 2009, 12:37:11 AM
Picasso, that radio shack link you provided looks like a total lifesaver.  I just purchased a small wooden board for 2 bucks, and I was going to drill somewhere around 75-100 small holes in it to make narrow slits for disconnects to fit through.  Then I was going to drill 50 or angular half-holes perpendicular to the slits so that the disconnects could be rotated and snugly fit into the half-holes.  If this device keeps all the wires arranged and safe from shorting, it will be a huge plus for me...

THANKS!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 17, 2009, 07:20:14 AM
Went ahead and bought a couple 12-slot Euro terminal strips for $5.89 apiece.  These should work perfectly for monitoring because multimeter probes can be fit into them easily.  It might take some modification to get them to work with my single cell charger (and my newly home-made single-cell battery drainer) because each uses alligator clips which might have a hard time fitting inside the plastic openings and attaching to the cylindrical metal conductors inside.  But wow, what a find!  They already paid for themselves from the refund I got by returning a large package of connectors I had bought to be individually crimped onto each wire...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: EVmc on December 18, 2009, 09:10:37 AM
 the wife's hair dryer didn't work ?
buy a battery load tester
can not use on cells in series (over 12volt)
but you can discharge a single cell
or whole pack wired in parallel 3.2 volt  pack
can adjust from 1 amp draw to 50 amps
need a small fan on charge tester to cool it, 4'" fan is best
I usually only pull 30 amps from a 60Ah cell or pack
Odd thing about one I use is if you turn amperage knob to off
it will still pull amps.  had to turn father to left, felt like knob was unscrewing but wasn't
before you use, check it on a car battery
make sure when knob turned down pulling no amps
as if it is will get sparks not good , just have to get used to it
and you have to be monitoring voltage drop don't let go past 2.7 volts
no reason to go near 2.5 volt. I guess you got that already.
  500 Amp Carbon Pile Load Tester   $69.99
will need 80mm, 120 volt fan to cool
the one I used only pulls 70A most from 60 AH thundersky
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91129 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91129)


Power supply 3.5v @10A and 5v @32A 420 18078-PS
www.Mpja.com (http://www.Mpja.com)

All electronics has lots of stuff at low prices
Are you charging and discharging One cell at a time?
oh I see you charge 72v charger then finish off with tenergy charger
good luck
Title: Cheap-O BMS
Post by: guity on December 19, 2009, 12:09:08 AM
Thanks for the tip Evmc.

That battery load tester is tempting.  I'll see how much time I end up spending on voltage levels, and if it is significant I will go for that kind of tool upgrade.  For now I should gain a helpful tool with my cheap-o BMS because now (hopefully) I can put the bike back together and still be able to work on the voltage, therefore being able to drain the pack by riding.  I've gotten a lot of readings on the batteries between 3.3 and 3.9 volts, but I really want to see what they look like from 2.8 to 3.3 volts.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on December 19, 2009, 10:17:06 AM
Hey Guity, this stuff is a little over my head but I'm learning a lot. Came across this post and thought it might help with your approach to balancing your pack...

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2009/11/get-rid-of-those-shunt-balancing.html (http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2009/11/get-rid-of-those-shunt-balancing.html)

or it could be just an interesting side note. :)
Title: Thanks Skadamo
Post by: guity on December 19, 2009, 11:51:06 AM
Thanks Skadamo, I skimmed over it some and will read it more carefully tomorrow.  I am already a bit of a disciple of this guy.  I really want to balance these cells from the bottom.  But I can't really get to the bottom with the equipment at my disposal unless I can actually run the bike.  But now that I have me Cheap-O battery monitoring system in place, I will be able to monitor the voltages of the cells and drain or charge individual cells by just taking the gas tank off, as opposed to taking the heavy battery trays off the bike.

Tonight I ran the Alltrax controller settings program and changed the low voltage cutoff to 60 (the largest value you can choose).  Now I have 24 batteries running and if they all had the minimum 2.5 volts that would add up to the 60 volts cutoff stipulated in the program.  But if one or more of the cells is running a tenth of a volt lower or 2 or 3, then by the time all the other cells hit an average of 2.5 volts and trigger the cutoff, the cell(s) that were a tenth of a volt (or 2 or 3) lower would now be at 24 volts or 2.3 volts or 2.2 volts, and therefore be damaged.

At any rate, I want to run the bike until the cells avergae about 3.0 volts per cell, and then stop the bike and balance the cells at that level, to try to follow in line with what Rickard is saying.


Anyway, I guess tomorrow I'll find out if I can still remember what parts of the bike go where and if I can put them all back together in one piece again....
Title: Bike back on the road with bad omens
Post by: guity on December 20, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
These are the Alltrax controller settings I found on my bike last night after hooking my computer into the controller.  As stated yesterday I changed the low voltage cutoff to be 60 -- and would have gone higher if I could have.  Today I also changed the maximum output setting to be 100% rather than the 84% I found it at.  Tonight I opened the bike up full throttle on a steep part of the hill I live on.  It still seemed a bit sluggish, but was operating from a base of around 79-80 volts, so even with open throttle up the steep hill for 2 or 3 minutes, it never managed to sag to less than 65 volts  -- whereas with the 22 batteries I was sagging below 55 volts coming up a portion of the hill that is not as steep.

When I come back down the hill I wind up doing some fairly heavy braking so it is common for the bike to stink a bit when I get it back in the garage.  Tonight I actually saw smoke rising in the air in front of the headlight as I pushed the bike into the garage, as well as the stink.  This is pretty worrisome seeing as how I just dis-assembled and re-assembled the bike and there are plenty enough gaps in my knowledge to have done something stupid to cause the bike to burn itself out somehow.  But until tomorrow and further testing I will be optimistic and point out that the smoke shown by the headlight was coming up from a place where only the front wheel had been -- the motor and batteries never got that far into the garage...
Title: Good news bad news
Post by: guity on December 21, 2009, 04:12:25 AM
The good news is that the smoke and stink were almost surely from the brakes.  A longer harder ride today produced no smoke or stink.

The bad news is that I am still reaching low voltage cutoff too soon.  My latest thought is that while only 2 of the batteries were killed, a lot more of them were damaged in a lesser way that causes them to sag in voltage under heavy loads (like going up hill).  Over the last couple of weeks, trying to balance them, and getting used to some of their individual quirks, I can see a pattern in the way the 2 new batteries and the 1 spare (un-abused) battery perform compared to the others: when the batteries are all being charged together, the 3 new ones are much slower to reach the higher voltage levels.  At the same time, when those batteries are drained, they are much slower to leave their operating voltage levels.

I got hit with LVC about 17 miles into a charge cycle, the last half mile up to my house.  It was kind of ironic that after I stopped, the batteries quickly floated back up to a total of 79.8 volts, just a few tenths of a volt less than where they started.  These things could still go a good 60 miles on flat ground, I think, but their hill-climbing glory days appear to have ended...
Title: Special Thanks to picasso!
Post by: guity on December 21, 2009, 04:40:37 AM
There it is, Picasso, the tool that makes it livable to try to balance the batteries on my GPR-S.  THANKS!
Title: Voltage sag doubled
Post by: guity on December 22, 2009, 09:59:36 PM
Going back over the cycle analysat stats, I noticed that before I abused the batteries, my typical voltage sag on a commute day (18 miles) was around 10volts.  However, since the abuse, the voltage sag on that commute has been in the 13 and 19 (last night it was 19) volt range.  Does that mean that one or more batteries in my pack is/are still bad, though they aren't completely dead yet?
Title: Bad seed
Post by: guity on December 24, 2009, 07:49:37 AM
What does it mean if one of your lifepo batteries is at 3.22 volts at the end of a cycle while the next lowest battery after that is at 3.30?  What if the battery in question is bloated with gas and is stinky as hell from leaking battery paste all over the place?

I mean, I know that can't be a good thing, but can it make the other 23 batteries seem like they are actually less than 23 (like they are 21 batteries, let's say)?  Can that one bad seed battery reduce your top speed from 59 mph to 53 mph?  Can it make your voltage sag double when going up long steep hills?  Or will it take more than that one culprit to cause so much trouble?

Right now I've already ordered a replacement battery for this one -- I certainly hope I'm not jumping the gun, replacing a battery that doesn't really need it.  And to a lesser extent, I hope that I am not missing some other battery or other batteries that need replacing just as much....
Title: Latest Strategy
Post by: guity on December 24, 2009, 08:00:34 AM
While I wait for a replacement 60 AH Thundersky, I want to prove the fat stinky leaky battery is bad by discharging it down to 2.5 volts by itself (so it can't suck any juice from its neighbor batteries) using my 30 watt light bulb attached to it with wires and alligator clips.  The I will attach my 2 amp Tenergy charger to it.  Whatever number of hours it takes for the Tenergy light to turn green, indicating that the battery is fully charged, multiplied by 2 (it is a 2-amp charger), will be the number of amp hours in the battery.  If the battery isn't holding somewhere close to 60 amp hours any more, then I believe it sucks and should be exiled from the pack...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: EVmc on December 27, 2009, 12:33:15 AM
hope ypu took some time off for christmas and had a nice one
this is kinda long
i put > for my reply, lots to keep track of for my peabrain

I’d put Alltrax  max output settings   back to 85% take it easy until pack is balanced.
> thank you I won’t worry so much
>Alltrax low voltage cutoff to 60 volt - mismatched for a 24 cell pack needs to be 64.8 to 67.2 >volt, 2.7, 2.8 per >cell
>Never want any cell to go below 2.7 volt no reason at all to hit 2.5 per cell except a bad >reason.


Tonight I opened the bike up full throttle on a steep part of the hill I live on.  It still seemed a bit sluggish, but was operating
 >from a base of around 79-80 volts, /24 =3.31 v good
 so even with open throttle up the steep hill for 2 or 3 minutes, it never managed to
> sag to less than 65 volts /24 = 2.708 cell volt average good –
> whereas with the 22 batteries I was sagging below 55 volts/22=2.5 cell volt average-
>danger warning Will Robinson
 coming up a portion of the hill that is not as steep.


When I come back down the hill I wind up doing some fairly heavy braking so it is common for the bike to stink a bit when I get it back in the garage.  Tonight I actually saw smoke rising in the air in front of the headlight as I pushed the bike into the garage, as well as the stink.  This is pretty worrisome seeing as how I just dis-assembled and re-assembled the bike and there are plenty enough gaps in my knowledge to have done something stupid to cause the bike to burn itself out somehow.  But until tomorrow and further testing I will be optimistic and point out that the smoke shown by the headlight was coming up from a place where only the front wheel had been -- the motor and batteries never got that far into the garage...

>Does the stink smell like epoxy, when you mix it?
>That’s what lions smell like when vent
>Smoke from headlight , on high beam is there some silver reflective material below the bulb >on the bezel?
>It needs to be there or will melt the plastic
>The brakes should never smoke or smell, something wrong.

The good news is that the smoke and stink were almost surely from the brakes.  A longer harder ride today produced no smoke or stink.

The bad news is that I am still reaching low voltage cutoff too soon.  My latest thought is that while only 2 of the batteries were killed, a lot more of them were damaged in a lesser way that causes them to sag in voltage under heavy loads (like going up hill).  Over the last couple of weeks, trying to balance them, and getting used to some of their individual quirks, I can see a pattern in the way the 2 new batteries and the 1 spare (un-abused) battery perform compared to the others: when the batteries are all being charged together, the 3 new ones are much slower to reach the higher voltage levels.  At the same time, when those batteries are drained, they are much slower to leave their operating voltage levels.

>cycle the new batteries by themselves several times until they start acting like the rest of >the pack
> and cells charge discharge too fast or slow
>then add to pack.
>Yes you are seeing the rhythm in the charge/discharge takes a few cycles to get rhythm >you’re learning!
>The hard way but are learning.
>You can put on a bench and wire in Parrell, copper plumber tape works well
> run it up run it down , can charge/discharge individual cells as needed till all work the same.
> I will try that toaster idea I like it

I got hit with LVC about 17 miles into a charge cycle, the last half mile up to my house.  It was kind of ironic that after I stopped, the batteries quickly floated back up to a total of 79.8 volts, just a few tenths of a volt less than where they started.  These things could still go a good 60 miles on flat ground, I think, but their hill-climbing glory days appear to have ended...



Going back over the cycle analysat stats, I noticed that before I abused the batteries, my typical voltage sag on a commute day (18 miles) was around 10volts.  However, since the abuse, the voltage sag on that commute has been in the 13 and 19 (last night it was 19) volt range.  Does that mean that one or more batteries in my pack is/are still bad, though they aren't completely dead yet?

> could be bad or off balance

What does it mean if one of your lifepo batteries is at 3.22 volts at the end of a cycle while the next lowest battery after that is at 3.30? 

>Checked right after discharge cycle? Or after an hour rest?
>After rest Thundersky manual says .1v difference balanced
>1v lower than the others is abnormal

What if the battery in question is bloated with gas and is stinky as hell from leaking battery paste all over the place?
>BAD smells like epoxy? I have seen them vent and smell but haven’t seen paste coming out.
>I’ve seen a pack that was hot for over a day, smelled , but no paste coming out
>swelled?
> are the cells next to swelled ones, pushed in, like curved matching the swell out one next to >it?
> I’ve seen that happen, check those. need discharged to 2.8v clamped to push back in >shape, charge/discharge but >only go  3.8v, 2.8v several times.


I mean, I know that can't be a good thing, but can it make the other 23 batteries seem like they are actually less than 23 (like they are 21 batteries, let's say)?
> yes say it drops fast to1.2v or 0v or reverses -2volt
>23cell at 3v=69v + 1 cell at 1v=70volt

 Can that one bad seed battery reduce your top speed from 59 mph to 53 mph?  Can it make your voltage sag double when going up long steep hills?  Or will it take more than that one culprit to cause somuch trouble?

> yes will drag down the other cells as they have to work harder to keep up with demand

Right now I've alreayd ordered a replacement battery for this one -- I certainly hope I'm not jumping the gun, replacing a battery that doesn't reallyneed it.  And to a lesser extent, I hope that I am not missing some other battery or other batteries that need replacing just as much....


While I wait for a replacement 60 AH Thundersky, I want to prove the fat stinky leaky battery is bad by discharging it down to 2.5 volts by itself (so it can't suck any juice from its neighbor batteries)

>Just go to 2.8v charge to 3.8 cycle several times watch if getting better you mentioned you >are getting the rhythm of cycling you’ll  be able to tell if improving. Work it until it holds what >the other cells hold at rest after charging
>Rest after charge reading is at least 2 hours after charge.
> but is stinky leaking not much chance good

>Hey I like your cycle analyst stats
>I added my charge chart, what I use cycling a pack to write down numbers. Have some cute >graphs
> just delete cell numbers I have in. I print out use in shop
> I may have problem posting if so see if site has email to you I haven’t used this site that >much
> I can’t stand looking at the hacked up battery box, I’ll make you a new one if you want, if >you pay shipping $13 or less I think. I have dimensions, on the first ones I punched square >holes for cell removal, will put those in. No charge for the box.
> I am sure EMS would want you to have a new box.


Title: Re: Bad seed
Post by: EVmc on December 27, 2009, 12:40:53 AM
charge chart
charge chart blank
Title: Thanks EVmc!
Post by: guity on December 27, 2009, 09:29:25 AM
Thanks very much for all the time and attention to my plight EVmc!  I kind of ran into a brick wall with the fat stinky leaky battery.  I put a single cell charger on it and got it up to 3.5 volts.  That wasn't quite right because the Tenergy charger is supposed ot charge a battery up to like 3.65 volts and then signal the end with a green light.  At any rate, the 3.5 was higher than the other batteries, 22 of which were at 3.33 volts, and one of which was at 3.32 volts.  

So I drained the stinky battery with a 30-watt light bulb, down to about 3.4 volts, because I kind of figured if it was weaker than the other batteries, it might help if I kept it charged slightly higher.  Then I plugged in the general Electric Motorsport 90-volt charger on all the batteries.  When I came back about an hour later, the rest of the batteries had only increased their voltage marginally, (maybe up to 3.36), but the stinky one was at some scary number like 5.6 volts!  As soon as I unplugged the EM charger the voltage on the stinky battery started dropping fairly rapidly, and to make it drop faster I attached the 30-watt bulb again.  Within a few minutes I had the stinky battery back down to 3.4 volts.  So I plugged in the general EM charger again.

This time I stayed to watch the stinky battery, and realized that it was climbing right back up at an alarming rate.  I let it get up to something like 4.23 and then stopped the charger and drained it back down.  But this time I drained it down below the others, like 3.2.  Then the general EM charger again.  And again the voltage on the stinky battery climbed so fast that within a few minutes it was hitting 4.2 again, much faster than the other the other batteries were able to to make any significant increase in voltage.
Title: Latest conclusion
Post by: guity on December 27, 2009, 09:44:23 AM
I don't don't how many times I would have had to drain that stinky battery and then charge all of them together to get them up at the 3.65 level together, but I finally just gave up.  My latest conclusion is that the stinky battery is damaged, but not damaged in the sense of being unable to hold a charge.  I basically think that the stinky battery's charge/discharge curve has been altered by the damage.  So at some voltage level like 3.2, let's say, it's voltage level is shooting way up fast while the other batteries are still slowly soaking up amp hours all the way up through 3.5 volts.

My theory is that the stinky battery's discharge curve is equally screwed up, so that once it gets below 3.2 volts, let's say, it drops like a rock while the rest of the batteries are still happily churning out amp hours.  When I open up the throttle all the way or drive the GPR-S up the hill, the stinky battery quickly reaches some kind of state where it is actually sucking in juice from the rest of the batteries.  So the same hill that caused me to sag about 9 or 10 volts when I had a healthy 23 batteries runing at the same time, now causes me to sag 13 to 24 volts with 24 batteries on the same hill.

Even the 2 brand-new batteries that I installed seem much more in tune with the charge/discharge rates of the other batteries than this stinky battery.  Ditto for the 24th battery that was always in the bike but only recently hooked up.  I really hope I am right because if I replace the stinky battery and still suffer from this low top speed and excessive voltage sag then I won't have the slightest idea of where to look next...
Title: Thaks for new box offer
Post by: guity on December 27, 2009, 10:04:08 AM
EVmc, thanks very much for the offer on the new battery case(s).  The truth is, I am afraid that the batteries might not fit in normal cases any more.  I am actually glad the 6-pack case is still hacked up, because otherwise I don't know how I would replace the fat stinky leaky battery.  I am not really aware of how fat most of the other batteries have gotten, but this fat happens to be the next-door neighbor of one of the batteries I replaced before.  When I finally got that dead battery out of the case, I realized that half the reason it had been so difficult was because of it's fat neighbor.

EVmc, I really think those cases should not be designed like that.  The metal sides should be held together by straps that can be loosened when necessary, so you don't have situations where a case has to be destroyed to get a battery out.  Also, the metal of the battery cases is really so thin I'm not sure how much good it does at containing the batteries.  My cases seemed like they just got pushed around by the batteries, so they just swelled and warped wherever the batteries happened to bulge.  This was before I hacked into them, and their warped-ness made it hard to get them out of the bike.

A couple times I took voltage connecting straps off batteries for one reason or another, and was unable to get the straps back on because the bulging batteries pushed eah other out of the range of the battery strap holes.  The only way to get the bolt holes to line up again was to take motorcycle ratchet tie down straps and wrap them around the pack and ratchet it tight enough to move the swollen batteries close together again.  I wish that the batteries had been tied together with similarly designed straps to begin with.
Title: EVmc charts
Post by: guity on December 27, 2009, 10:11:13 AM
Thanks for the charts EVmc.  I took my latest stats and slightly re-did your formula that divides the minimum battery voltage by the number of batteries.  The reason being that most of the time I was using 23 batteries, then in early December I was using 22 batteries, and now since later on in December, the bike is using 24 batteries.  So I made changes to reflect the number of batteries in the bike at any given time.  Also, I wanted to point out that the one crazy looking minimum voltage of 40 was some kind of anomaly, I believe.  

I saw that 40 volt level show up on the cycle analyst as I was driving down the hill using little or no amps.  Maybe some connection got of whack for a few seconds, or batteries freaked out for some reason, or the cycle analyst went temporarily insane, but the voltage quickly came back to normal and never came close to going that low when traveling back up the hill.  And the low voltage cutoff that day had been set to 60 volts.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on December 27, 2009, 10:22:51 AM
EVmc, as you pointed out, I am slowly, painfully learning.  I am like a child.  There is this inherent drama involved where it is difficult to tell which will happen first -- either I learn just enough fast enough to get the bike running at the level I want (and how to maintain it that way), or I electrocute myself and/or completely destroy the bike...
Title: Cold and voltage sag
Post by: guity on January 08, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
Wow newsflash for guity.  Found this thread in the DIY electric car forum:  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html) . It starts with post #114 where this guy is complaining that he has had cells go bad and increasing voltage sag on all his cells.  As more posters start chiming in, it becomes apparent that colder temps have a heavy effect on Thundersky voltage sag.  at 77 degrees Fahrenheit, minimum voltage for the batteries is 2.5 volts, as everyone has always said.  But at -31 Fahrenheit, the minimum voltage is 1.5 volts .  So to some extent, some portion the sag I am experiencing is due to colder temps.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on January 11, 2010, 04:04:05 AM
Replaced the fat stinky battery yesterday (took 3 or 4 hours this time instead of 3 or 4 days).   Drove the bike to the hardware store this morning, which is slightly farther than work.  Drove back home and made it up the hill at 45 mph the whole way with no problem.  I had driven 21 miles, used about 28 amp hours, and the final resting voltage was 78.5 volts.  The voltage never seemed to sag badly today -- perhaps because it was one of those sunny January days that are even warm by Los Angeles standards.  Immediately took off the seat and the fake gas tank to measure voltages.  The batteries were ranging from 3.21 to 3.27 excapt battery #18, which had dropped to 3.09.  

I put the single-cell charger on battery #18, went to the store, and when I got back about 45 minutes later, all the batteries (including 18) had settled to a straight 3.3 volts.  I guess these Thundersky (and perhaps all battery) packs are like ice cube containers of water so the juice tends to just slosh around between cells until they all have the same amount.  I have to check individual voltages as soon as I finish with a ride in order to actually see what cells are having trouble keeping up...

These stats from yesterday aren't wildly different from any of the post-battery-damage stats, however...
Title: Significant improvement from replacing leaky battery
Post by: guity on January 13, 2010, 01:38:14 AM
After replacing the fat stinky battery which had been next door to one of the dead batteries, the bike is definitely improved, though not quite as strong as when I originally received it.

The cycle analyst showed the bike going 58 mph on the PCH today, which I believe translates to 60 mph.  (Cycle Analyst speedometer shows 43 mph when driving behind my wife who is going 45 mph.)  Bike made it to work yesterday and back using 24 amp hours, and only briefly was unable to maintain 45 mph (at the peak of the hill where the speed limit is 35 mph anyway).  The sag was down to 59 instead of 55 volts.  Before batteries were damaged, sag during a commute typically got down to 65 volts.  So there are 6 volts to account for, as well as at least another 3 volts because there are now 24 batteries instead of 23.  A total of 9 volts of extra sag that are probably the result of some combination of weakened batteries and lowered temperatures.

For now the plan is to strip off the seat and gas tank each day as soon as I get home from work  and record individual battery voltages immediately, then put the batteries on the general 90 volt charger and when it is done charging, to again record all the individual battery voltages.  See if I can spot a potential problem cell...
Title: Conflicting Stats
Post by: guity on January 13, 2010, 10:42:09 AM
Looking at the stats, one would think the bike took a step backward today.  The bike was driven a bit faster and harder, but the temperature outside felt colder as well.  Nowhere near as cold as a month and a half ago, but seemed colder than last night...

The spread sheet has been changed slightly to use a two sheets -- one for recording cycle analyst stas, the second for recording individual battery voltages.  If there are two voltage recordings on the same day then the smaller voltages are taken just after riding the bike, while the larger voltage amounts are taken just after charging the bike...
Title: Plan D?
Post by: guity on January 14, 2010, 12:03:09 PM
OK the stats don't look like they are going to rat out the bad batteries.  By the time I get the bike into the garage and check the voltages, everything looks fine.  But something is happening near the top of the hill that is causing a significant loss in power and and a huge sag in pack voltage.  Some of this sag and power loss hould be rectified by warmer temperatures, but I get the feeling most of it is because some number of batteries is screwed up. 

The plan now is to buy one of these: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9282&Product_Name=Cell-Log_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2-8S_Lipo (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9282&Product_Name=Cell-Log_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2-8S_Lipo) .  For some reason they don't sell anything to help you connect these to your batteries, so it will also require these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2261-1-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2261-1-ND) and these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2217-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2217-ND) . 

This device should allow me to monitor 8 batteries at a time, logging their voltage levels to a file two times per second as I am driving the GPR-S.  At that point when the voltage sags, hopefully this device will be able to show which batteries are sagging first.  Hopefully this is a small number of batteries and not all 20 of the batteries that are, at present, not basically new...


Anyway, theoretically, after testing with 3 commutes (three sags), with the device on a different set of 8 cells each time, I will have a better idea of what exactly is sapping the bike's strength.
Title: Preparing for the cell logger
Post by: guity on January 24, 2010, 12:38:25 PM
I didn't understand how small this stuff was going to be.  I couldn't find wires small enough for this plastic plug and wire-holder at the hardware store.  My neighbor, who works with remote control cars and planes gave me some wire.  One picture shows the assembled plug that should plug into the cell logger when it arrives.  The ends of the wires will be screwed into the back ends of Picasso's euro-style terminal strips.  In theory the wires will be long enough so that the plugs can be pulled out through the fake gas tank hole, the cell logger can be attached, and 8 batteries can be assessed for voltage simulataneously.  Most importantly the cell logger should be able to record voltages of the 8 batteries twice a second and place the data in a log file that will span 36-hours of use.  (All I will need is about 45 minutes of recorded data.)

The little metal wire holders were intimidating at first, partly because I don't see close-up stuff that well and these things are small.  But the bottom part of the metal holder is to be crimped onto the rubber sheath of the wire to hold it in place.  The top of the wire holder has a tiny little metal protrusion out the back that matches up with an extra bit of space at the top of each hole in the plug.  When the metal wire-holder is pushed up into the plastic plug hole properly, that protrusion will hook into something deep in the interior of the plastic plug hole and the wire/wire-holder won't come back out of the plug hole without a good bit of effort.
Title: Preparing for the cell logger additinal pic
Post by: guity on January 24, 2010, 12:46:07 PM
Additional pic showing assembled plug that should fit directly into cell logger.  Back ends of wires should fit ok in Picasso's euro-style terminal strips...
Title: Cell logger ups and downs
Post by: guity on February 04, 2010, 06:12:38 AM
The cell logger arrived from HobbyKing last Thursday and there ensued a kind of rollercoaster weekend that went from the despair of feeling like I'd never figure out how to wire it in to the euphoria of getting it wired and watching it display 8 cell voltages for each of the 3 plugs I put into it into, back to the despair of accidentally subjecting it to 60 volts of juice while trying to organize and straighten out the wiring, to some short-lived joy when it seemed to work again in some kind of limited fashion, then finally ending in despair when it actually started smoking during one test and the screen went dark and never came back again.

Probably at least 10 hours were lost simply because my personal system of enumerating batteries was opposite of the standard way.  For some reason I have always just called the first battery off of the positive terminal battery 1, and the last battery, connected to the negative terminal was 24 to me.  So when I tried to follow the cell logger wiring diagram, and connect the negative terminal from cell 1 and the positive terminal from cell 1, as well and the positive terminals of the next 7 cells in sequence, the cell logger wouldn't even power up.  At that point I got lost in a sea of confusion that arose from the fact that i wasn't sure if even the little plugs I had constructed were even functional.  Or since I know squat about wiring diagrams I had to question whether I had at all correctly interpreted the one provided with the cell logger.  or even, did the makers of the cell logger provide a bad diagram (it's coming from China, and the English documentation is terse and often vague and lacks in detail)?

But really the whole thing might have been ABC if I had just understood that battery 1 is connected to the negative terminal, and battery 24 is connected to the positive terminal, and what I really had been doing was connecting batteries 24-17 to the cell logger instead of 1-8.  (The cell logger needs to have the first pin of its plug connected into the negative terminal of the first battery of a series, so I was plugging the first pin of the plug into the negative terminal of cell 24 instead of cell 17 in order to get the readings on those 8 cells.)

At any rate, after these mis-steps, all the batteries were displaying on the cell logger around 9 PM Saturday evening, and I left off for the day ecstatic about that.  But the next morning, when I woke up, I realized there were these dinky little 24 gauge wires stringing all over the place.  In order to organize them better, I had to string some more 14-gauge wire between some of the cells and the euro-style strips so that, any one plug coming from the cell logger could get all the info it needed by sending the little 24-gauge wires out to just one euro style strip at a time for each of the 3 -8cell series of batteries.

The good thing about this is that no battery trays had to be removed -- I didn't need any more 14-gauge wires from the bottom 6-pack of batteries, and the other 18 could be accessed by just removing a metal retaining strip and the charger and a couple of plastic covers from over the tops of the battery cases.  Once i did that, I first removed the positive terminal cable that connects to the positive terminal on what I originally thought of as the "first" battery of the pack.  I made a huge mistake at that point without thinking very hard about it.  There were actually 2 or 3 cables connected to that battery's positive terminal, and I removed all of them and carefully covered them with electrical tape. 

The problem was that one of the wires was one of my 14-gauge voltage testing wires that went led to the euro-style terminal strips.  So instead of interrupting the current completely, I was just re-directing it into some kind of convoluted wiring system that had 60 volts flowing through it instead of the preferred 0, or the full 90.  But the cell logger is only set up to handle 43 volts, so when I hooked it in for a brief test, it made a quick nasty snap sound and went dead for a while.  From then on it just showed a "cell voltage error" every time I tried to hook it up, even when I hooked it up to the other plugs that had worked just a minute before.

The cell logger never really seemed the same after that.  Even when I powered it up off my computer and navigated the menu system a little bit, it uncharacteristically just blacked out on me after a couple of minutes.  Then like I said, during some further testing later on, after I had actually got it to show the voltages of 6 cells out of an 8 cell series, the next time I hooked it up smoke just started pouring out, the screen went black, and it was dead.

I spent a long time after that going over every wire again and again and re-wiring mistakes and checking voltages, and I now think I have all the plugs ready to go, hooked into the euro-style terminal strips, but I have to wait for another cell logger to arrive from HobbyKing.  And this time they are back ordered, so who knows how long it will take to get the next one?  But I gotta say, it is cool as hell to get the voltages of all 24 batteries by just plugging the little bugger into 3 different plugs, and it will be cooler still if/when I can get it to record the cell voltages twice a second while I am riding the bike full throttle up the long steep hill...
Title: Re: Cell logger ups and downs
Post by: EVmc on February 06, 2010, 12:09:07 AM
Hey i did the same thing on Packtracker !
now I number batteries most neg is number 1
I had also numbered most pos as number 1
to hook up first one i had to finally clean numbers off and renumber
i would get mixed up in middle of pack
man too bad to smoke got out of your monitor
does one unit monitor all 24 cells?
Title: Re: Cold and voltage sag
Post by: EVmc on February 06, 2010, 12:50:38 AM
Wow newsflash for guity.  Found this thread in the DIY electric car forum:  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html) . It starts with post #114 where this guy is complaining that he has had cells go bad and increasing voltage sag on all his cells.  As more posters start chiming in, it becomes apparent that colder temps have a heavy effect on Thundersky voltage sag.  at 77 degrees Fahrenheit, minimum voltage for the batteries is 2.5 volts, as everyone has always said.  But at -31 Fahrenheit, the minimum voltage is 1.5 volts .  So to some extent, some portion the sag I am experiencing is due to colder temps.
we are driving the Ranchero this winter the batteries are heated to 80 deg
in the late morning its  34 deg outside
but lions are 80 deg no sag  and
now  34 deg air cooling motor, no cutback and lions heated can go up hill at 55 mph easy
in summer  100 deg outside, going up deadwood peak about 700 foot climb in less than 2 miles
could only go 45 mph because controller has a motor temperature cutback,


Title: Re: Cell logger ups and downs
Post by: guity on February 06, 2010, 01:08:57 AM
Hey i did the same thing on Packtracker !
now I number batteries most neg is number 1
I had also numbered most pos as number 1
to hook up first one i had to finally clean numbers off and renumber
i would get mixed up in middle of pack
man too bad to smoke got out of your monitor
does one unit monitor all 24 cells?

Gees, that makes me feel a heck of a lot better!  Not only am I not the only person to make that mistake, but even smart guys make that mistake!  I mean it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? -- start the numbering from the positive side?

Anyway, there is a lot of talk on Endless Sphere from the cell logger maker, saying he might even make a new celllogger that monitors 45 cells at the same time, but so far I have only seen the 8-cell monitor.  Since you can just plug it in back and forth between the 3 bunches of 8 cells in just a second, I am wondering if it would be worth it to buy 3 of these cell loggers ($35 apiece after shipping is factored in) so I wouldn't even have to switch from plug to plug in order to see all the voltages....
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on February 06, 2010, 03:05:34 PM
Just save the cash and pony up for a good BMS.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on February 09, 2010, 02:14:15 AM
Just save the cash and pony up for a good BMS.

OK Picasso, but here's the deal:  Aren't I going to have to get a fairly sophisticated BMS in order to get it to provide me the inside info on which cells are acting up?  And what  happens when I dump my Etek motor and replace it with a hub motor and fill up its space with about 8 more batteries, and replace the controller?  Aren't I going to have to buy another expensive BMS?

Yesterday I had a weird experience.  Drove about 16.5 miles to a friend's house for his annual SuperBowl party, and plugged it into an outlet he had on the outside of his house under a kitchen window.  I heard the charger go on.  And about 6 or 7 hours later, when I got back to the bike, the charger was off.  usually this means everything got charged up to 90 volts.  But when I turned the bike on, Cycle Analyst showed 79 volts, which is basically what it would have been if the bike hadn't been charged at all.  So this turned into a 33 mile trip, which ate up a total of 52 amp hours even though I went up the final hill at around 35 mph.  The cycle analyst showed an end voltage of something slightly more than 77 volts.  The min had gotten down below 55 volts, which would be less than 2.3 volts per cell. 

My memory was that this was much worse performance than the bike would have gotten just after I purchased it.  So I checked out some of the cycle analyst stats.  Just after I received the bike I drove it 36 miles on September 18 using 52 amp hours, and drove it 33 miles on September 20 using 44 amp hours, so maybe current performance isn't really as deteriorated as I have been making it out to be.  The biggest difference is in the voltage sag I am getting which is like over 20 volts now as opposed to around 10 volts when I first got the bike.  And certainly a good deal of the sag has to be attributable to lower temps.

Anyhow, received a message from HobbyKing that the new cell logger is on its way -- just wait Picasso, when I get that thing hooked on correctly you are going to fall in love with it!
Title: Chain problems
Post by: guity on February 11, 2010, 01:37:52 AM
The chain started making noises that became louder and louder until I think I actually got to the point where instead of feeling that magic carpet gliding feeling as the bike moved forward, I was kind of cringing at the grating sounds.  I thought this was all a result of the chain getting too loose, so I spent some time tightening it a couple weeks ago.  But after tightening the chain, the noise because worse, if anything.  It got so loud I started worrying about safety.

The other night I took the left side fairing off so i could try to get a better view of the chain as i rolled the bike around.  That was when i realized that the red coloring on the chain wasn't just decorative -- it was rust.  It had actually rusted so bad that at least one section of the chain was unable to straighten.  It had this kind of crimp in it and the links were so set in place by the rust that I couldn't force them to straighten out (and apparently the bike couldn't either when it ran the chain over the sprockets).

So I broke out the WD-40 and smothered the entire chain with it, got the links all straightened out, and put in an order at Bike Bandit for some Maxima Chain Lube (wax).  Now when I ride the bike it might be even quieter than when I originally bought it.  However, I'm sure there is WD-40 spattered all over the place inside the fairing.  No biggie, well worth the mess to have that magic carpet feeling back again...

Still awaiting the new cell logger.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: skadamo on February 11, 2010, 10:58:09 PM
Is it an o-ring chain? Ive heard of people taking the chain off an soaking it in a bath of oil for a while. You would probably end up with a mess but might help keep the chain moving nicely long term? Might also attract dirt. Just an idea.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on February 12, 2010, 08:57:13 PM
Skadamo, I think it is kind of a cheaper, non O-ring chain.  One knowledgeable person familiar with the chains has told me to consider just replacing it now...

2/18/9 edit:  Make that 4 knowledgeable  people now!  I am putting it off because the chain just seems so young at this point and because the bike runs at lower speeds than the ICE bikes which probably factored into the giving of this advice, and because again, I think that with this electric bike, I will be more able to pick up differences in sound that will warn if the chain is about to catastrophically fail...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on March 13, 2010, 03:58:55 AM
Its been some time since we had an update.....I wonder what happened......


I'm going to guess Electric Motorsport paid guity off and took his bike back since we have not heard from him.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on May 09, 2010, 11:21:49 PM
Sorry Picasso, I went MIA for a while.  Toward the end of February it was a rainy night coming home after work, lots of water accumulating on my helmet visor, and I was trying to create some separation between me and the car in back of me.  But in doing so I suddenly found myself approaching a bend in the road faster than I wanted to.  I didn't think I hit the brakes so hard, but I did feel the bike sliding underneath me.  I shifted my weight to try to keep everything upright, felt the bike lurch to one side, and then felt it correct itself.  I remember thinking, "YEAH, I made it!" then the next thing I remember  was when I woke up about a half hour later I was being loaded into an ambulance.  

The person in the car behind me told the ambulance guys that I was going pretty slow but that the bike went down on its right side and I went over the handle bars.  My left thumb was broken, along with my right wrist and right clavicle.  When I recovered the helmet, there were scrape marks on the back side of the helmet but not the front side.  The motorcycle was left with a guy whose house I had been in front of when I wrecked, and a few days later he actually drove it 5 miles or so up to my house.  His wife drove behind him in their car, and the two of them let me know I might consider suing the city because the city never cleans the street in that area and it gets a lot of oily spots around there.  

The motorcycle was scraped badly on the right side, and the front wheel appears to be badly aligned.  I have a feeling the forks aren't bent and all I really need to do is bump the wheel against a solid object to knock things back into alignment.

To tell the truth, I got a lot of wind knocked out of my salis that reduced the amount of hot air I used to reserve for this forum.

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on May 09, 2010, 11:41:49 PM
Right now I would be happy if I could just get the license and registration for my bike so I could sell it, if that's what i finally decide to do.  Electric Motorsport took a thousand bucks from me to take care of this matter, and 8 months after the sale I still have no license/registration.  Electric Motorsport has gone into "we're-too-busy-for-you" mode, and the only response I can get from them at this point is an indirect one about "being patient".   It has pretty much come down to spending some time at the DMV to verify what the DMV told me over the phone, which is that there is nothing in their system pertaining to my motorcycle.   After that the only hope is small claims court to get my license/registration money back from EM.  (I have some hope that because this involves a vehicle, I can force EM to come down to defend themselves in a Southern California court rather than my having to drive up to Oakland.)  If I can get the $1,000 back then get the license and registration by myself, then I can weigh my options.  

Having torn up the metal cases that hold the batteries together, and having added a lot of custom (and non-professional) wiring to the system for the purpose of better monitoring the batteries, and having taken the bike through two accidents, I can well imagine that the re-sale value of the bike might have dropped so low that I would be just as well off to keep it as a souvenir.  

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Phantom on May 10, 2010, 03:00:22 AM
Wow, Guity, I hope you are healed up. You have had so much bad luck lately, I hope things get better. I am sorry to hear about your accident in addition to your GPR-S registration troubles.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on May 10, 2010, 03:12:18 AM
Thanks Phantom.  I'm only starting to regard my GPR-S troubles as troubles now that I am starting to get healed up enough to even think about them.  Actually the troubles could still potentially be just DMV problems.  Hope your Brammo is still giving you a good ride!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Phantom on May 10, 2010, 06:04:12 AM
I hope it is just DMV red tape that is the problem. It should just take some time in that case. The Brammo has been fantastic. It is far better than I imagined.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: TK on May 10, 2010, 11:54:33 AM
Guity,

The money collected was mostly California sales tax. We pay this tax to the state of California.   We do not keep it.   The registration and fees were sent to DMV.
Not sure why you have not received the registration and plates.  Please contact us directly in regards to this and we will find out why you have not received your registration.   
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on May 10, 2010, 08:50:08 PM
Thanks -- that was dumb of me -- the state tax money I provided stopped being my concern after I provided it to EM, so more than $800 is accounted for.   I guess we are only talking about $160 or $170 worth of license/registration fees.

As dumb as I have been however, I do wish you would have enlightened me on this fact months ago when I sent multiple emails to you guys about the issue, or perhaps one of the multiple times when Hollywood Electric contacted you about the problem on my behalf, after I gave up on contacting you directly.  And I don't understand why you need me to contact you to resolve the problem now.  Is there some information I can provide that will allow EM to get to the bottom of the matter with the DMV?  If so, let me know and I will get it to you pronto.  If not, just please call the DMV and ask them why they are sitting on the paperwork.  

Below are two emails, the lower one from me to you in January, and your response above that...I responded back to your response a few times but never got anything further.

**************

I have not been aware of this situation.    


Are you saying DMV has not sent you anything in regards to plates or reg?




T K
President
2400-2404 Mandela Parkway,
Oakland, CA 94607
(510) 839-9376 Phone
tk@electricmotorsport,com
www.electricmotorsport.com (http://www.electricmotorsport.com)
Skype: Electricmotorsport
Mo.- Fri. 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM PST, –8 UTC


 


On Jan 15, 2010, at 12:01 PM, GUITY wrote:


Hi TK and TA,

Hope your new year is coming along well at Electric Motorsport.

I guess now it is time for me to start getting concerned about my
license and registration (see emails below).  I don't know how long I
can keep driving with this temporary registration.  Have you guys heard
anything further on it, or can you look into it, or provide me with any
information that might be pertinent in allowing me to look into it
myself?

Thanks,

Guity
Title: Thanks to EM!
Post by: guity on May 11, 2010, 08:18:28 PM
Electirc Motorsport has apparently been calling the DMV, though I didn't know about it.  The DMV was denying that any payment was made for the license/registration.  Once TK's post helped me understand that the tax and license/registration are totally separate (I guess I had heard the phrase "tax/license/registration" so many times while shopping for motorcycles that I came to think of them as all in the same package), then I remembered a $165 check I had sent to EM that was payable to the DMV.  The deposited check was online at my bank website, and I downloaded it and sent it to TK, and he was able to use that to prove to the DMV that the money was actually paid.  The DMV was then able to determine that the check had mistakenly been attributed to someone else's paperwork.  TK says the DMV says the plates/registration will be in the mail shortly!  This should pretty much finish and wrap up any and all responsibilities that EM has toward me, and I wish EM the best.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on May 12, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
Thats great to hear and wow sorry you spilled again guity. Did you ever get your replacement cells you ordered?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on May 12, 2010, 08:26:03 PM
Yes picasso I have replaced a couple batteries, but my attempt to determine if there were any more runt batteries in my pack got set back indefinitely.  As the temps got warmer I started to see performance that seemed to pretty much match what the bike had always done, so it could be no more replacements are necessary...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 14, 2010, 10:12:25 AM
Anyhow, finally got around to getting the individual battery monitor system going today.  Nice to see 8 batteries at a time.  Next weekend I will try to use the logging function that records the voltages of the 8 batteries as the bike is being ridden...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 17, 2010, 07:26:24 PM
OK first problem, already heavily documented: I left the logger attached to a clump of batteries just so I could check the voltage any time I felt like it.  They had been charged to the max, with the lowest one at 3.51 and the highest at 3.84 volts.  But after che3cking a couple days later, 2 of the batteries had gone up to 3.91 and the rest had lostg all their top-off charges and were sitting down at around 3.35.  The logger eats up the charge of all but the last 2 of a battery clump and the top-off charges in the first 6 cells melted away surprisingly fast, considering the thing is such a dinky little device.

So bottom line is I need to just attach the device right when I actually intend to use it.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Richard230 on June 17, 2010, 11:21:17 PM
Guilty's battery performance is better than the Hi Power batteries on my GPR-S. (I seem to recall that Guilty has Thunder Sky batteries.) My Hi Power batteries will take a surface charge of 3.5 (average) volts per battery when the BMS shuts off. But after sitting around for a day, with no equipment attached other than the on-board BMS, the voltage drops to an average of 3.2 volts per battery - which probably tells you something about Hi Power batteries.

When under a maximum load, the battery pack drops to an average of 2.1 volts per battery (50.4 volts for the 24-battery pack). Unloaded, the Cycle Analyst typically shows around 75 volts, or an average of 3.125 volts per battery.

I would be happy to have the battery performance that Guilty has.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 18, 2010, 07:18:03 PM
Richard, at this point in time I would tend to agree with you in that most of my concerns about my batteries might be written off to the normal loss of performance that comes with lower temperatures.  The bike seems to keep chugging along, however, despite how much I have beaten and battered it.  At any rate, I am hoping this logger will provide further clues as far as whether there might still be a runt battery or two hiding amongst the pack...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: picasso on June 19, 2010, 05:22:01 AM
Is a few diagrams on endless forums about how to tie in 3+ 8cell loggers into a nice little system to watch them all. But what you have now looks much better then probing away one by one.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 19, 2010, 08:27:10 AM
Yeah mine is definitely not as cool, but I already had to buy 2 of those things because one broke so Im not excited about buying another 2 of them.  I kind of hope to just bring it out every once in a while to get an idea of how badly balanced they are or if I suspect a runt.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 08:49:14 AM
Before I forget for the 5 millionth time, here is the latest cycle analyst stats spreadsheet...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 09:14:45 AM
OK this will require 4 posts, in each post an attachment of a Word document with 2 graphs in the document showing the same 52-minute span of logging that includes driving back up my hill at the end of a trip to work and back.  These graphs tell a fascinating tale as far as I am able to tell...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 09:16:48 AM
OK second pair of batteries...22 and 21 (according to my backward numbering system -- to the cell logger they are 3 and 4)
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 09:17:49 AM
OK third pair of batteries, guity's 20 and 19, cell loggers 5 and 6...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 09:18:49 AM
And finally guity's batteries 18 and 17, cell loggers 7 and 8...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 09:24:24 AM
If you take a look at the graphs, you can see that battery 20 (guity number) or 5 (cell logger number) takes a dive at every opportunity, much lower than every battery.  The biggest dive came while coming back up the hill today, but you can see there were other dives probably corresopnding with every time I accelerated hard from a stop.  You can also see that battery 24 (cell logger's 1) and 18 (cell logger's 7) sucked as well, though not as bad.  I guess it is a bit too early to jump to conclusions until I have logged the other 16 batteries as well...

But interestingly enough, you can also see that all the bad batteries, even the worst, comes back up even with the others when there isn't a heavy load.  Hence, by the time I got the bike stopped and checked the voltages, none of the batteries looked all that bad...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 11:40:30 PM
OK, today was a shorter ride of around 12 miles, but the graphs still show the hill taking its toll on batteries 4 (= guity's 13) and 7 (guity's 10) with 4/13 being the really horrible one.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 11:41:27 PM
The worst battery is in this pair:
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 11:42:05 PM
A couple of reasonable batteries here:
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 20, 2010, 11:44:11 PM
Batteries 7 (cell  logger)/ 10 (guity and 8 (cell logger)/9 (guity):
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Richard230 on June 21, 2010, 04:25:13 AM
Hi Guilty. Thanks for going to all of the trouble to keep track of your battery performance. I continue to find it interesting how your bike's performance differs from mine. It would appear that my GPR-S is more efficient than yours, or perhaps it is just more constrained by my controller or my batteries. My watts per mile typically averages around 80 per mile on my way back and forth to work.  Riding 10 miles up and down three hills at full throttle uses around 13 or 14 Ah. Top speed reached according to the CA is usually about 66 mph (60 on the bike's speedometer). As I have said before, my entire 24-cell battery pack usually runs around 51 volts and draws around 160 amps while under a load at around 30-40 mph, but that improves to around 60 volts once the speed rises to over 50 mph and the power draw drops below 100 amps - at full throttle. The faster the motor spins, the less power it draws, but it never cuts off the way my Etek-RT did when it reached 62 mph. I continue to be impressed with your battery performance. Even your worst battery is better than the average of my battery pack, both under a load and at rest. I think my Hi Power batteries are not all that high power.

I just turned over 1000 miles and one of these days I need to summarize my experience with my sepex GPR-S now that it is most likely fully "broken-in".
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 21, 2010, 04:32:32 AM
Hmmm, I guess I either have to give you my batteries or you have to give me your motor!
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Harlan on June 21, 2010, 08:09:55 AM
I think the difference in efficiency can be attributed to the gigantic hill guity needs to climb to get home.  That ascent alone has got to be at least 500 ft vertical over two miles.

I'm impressed at how well it seems to perform on such a long incline.  You can see how low the voltage on those batteries sags in those files you posted.  It must really tax them, especially at the end of their discharge cycle.

How many amps are you pulling on the way up?
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 21, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
Harlan, it's been a while since I checked the amps on the way up the hill, and I can't really remember.  I'll check and post when I ride it again this weekend...
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: Richard230 on June 21, 2010, 09:49:10 PM
For what it is worth, I pull a steep two-mile hill (Sharp Park Road), along with two other smaller hills, at about 45 mph on every ride to get out of town. I keep my throttle pegged the entire time and the CA shows a continuous draw of between 175-150 amps - as the controller struggles to keep the battery pack voltage above 50.4 volts. On the way back home I have to ride up four hills, as I live on one about 1/3 mile the road. I would estimate that when I ride I have my throttle pinned at least 50% during every trip.

I keep wondering about the condition of my batteries, but looking at the battery specs, it looks to me like Hi Power batteries just are not manufactured to perform to the same standards as are the other major brands of prismatic LIFePo4 batteries available on the market.
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on June 22, 2010, 09:10:32 PM
Anyway, that data kind of re-inforces my gut feeling that this poor bike has never really had a chance to run on 24 good batteries at the same time.  Not that I think it would turn into a rocket if had all 24, but I do think there would be some improved performance. 
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on October 10, 2010, 09:14:58 AM
Today when I got home from a 26-mile run I whiffed that now-familiar half-toxic but paradoxically kind of sweet smell of a leaky battery.  Pulling out the cell logger, there was one battery at 2.85 volts while the other 23 were around 3.25.  So I have another battery that needs replacement.  I think it is (guity) 24 -- (cell-logger) 1, which is one of those that show up badly in the tests above.  (To verify I need to take off the gas tank and trace down the cell logger wire set of the bad battery to see what exact cell it belongs to (1,9,17?).

Lots of maintenance for this bike (supposedly there wasn't supposed to be that much maintenance), but I do have to say that a year after the initial purchase I'm still not seeing any companies coming out with bikes that have any kind of edge in range/speed.  (Though Brammo should break things wide open next July.)

Also, I guess my accident took a toll on the left fork because it seems to be slowly leaking oil (from the bottom of the fork) onto the front tiire and the floor of the garage...

Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on January 16, 2011, 07:05:11 AM
OK, Hollywood Electrics provided a battery, I pulled off the faux gas tank, and indeed the bad cell is 24 (guity) or 1 (cell logger).  The bike has been sitting a long time so I am re-charging it back to top.  Individual battery from Hollywood Electrics appears to be already charged on my single cell charger.  So when the big charger is done topping off  the batteries I will take off the front top case of batteries, lift up the back top case of batteries to make room, then slide out the small lower case of batteries where battery 24/1 resides, to replace it.

The bad battery actually seems to be taking some charge at this point in time, better than it was doing after the last ride.  However, it is also already jacking up above the rest of the batteries, at about 3.5 volts as opposed to the average 3.35 volts....
Title: Re: guity's gpr-s experience
Post by: guity on January 17, 2011, 02:27:05 AM
Battery changed (way too hard, if there was going to be a next design of this bike, it would need to make it A) convenient to replace individual batteries and B) get rid of the metal cases and replace those with metal bands that can be bolted and tightened around the battery groups).  Had to hammer an old screw driver down on the split corner of the metal case to split it open further before I could get the  battery next door to the bloated stinky bad battery out of the case, and hence the bad battery.

Coming up the hill with about 10 miles ridden on the charge, keeping the bike at 45mph, the voltage never went below 69.  Doesn't prove anything, but certainly no obvious problems after losing the bad battery...