ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: mrwilsn on September 30, 2015, 10:33:22 AM
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Has anybody seen this article indicating the 2016 Zero Lineup is going to be announced Oct. 15 at the AIMEXPO?
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/09/29/aimexpo-zero-motorcycles-set-to-launch-2016-line/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/09/29/aimexpo-zero-motorcycles-set-to-launch-2016-line/)
What do you think Zero has in store for us with this comment:
“In addition to great features, we have some new things in store that are the direct result of customer feedbackâ€
Is this year just going to be another significant but still incremental update like the 2014 to 2015 or will we see big advancements? We already know the DSR will be announced but what else is coming?
I think its a given that battery capacity will increase another 10%...more if we're lucky. But what else do you want to see? Personally, my wish list is the following...in no particular order.
- Factory heated grips
- Cruise control
- Fairing
- Larger and lockable tank storage...big enough for a full face helmet
- Fast charging
- Canceling turn signals
- Traction control....probably would turn it off most of the time but would be great for bad weather days
- Keyless operation
- Full color touchscreen display
Obviously it would be overly optimistic to think Zero will add everything on my list but its all doable and they would attract a lot more commuters.
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
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+1. Some of those will just raise the price for little benefit. I can't imagine how cancelling indicators would work on a motorcycle?
Fairing option, faster charging and the touch screen are nice. Factory heated grips would be nice and they are available for the 2013 models so not sure of the reasoning. Maybe most people just fit their own?
I think the 2015 bikes are pretty good and a price drop would probably be of most benefit to the company and electric bikes in general, all things considered.
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Just a matter of another relay, not a big deal at all. BMW introduced them decades ago on their motorcycles.
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Will they announce the Sevcon Gen 5 controller for the 2016 bikes?
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Time will tell...
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Tomorrow I pick up a VFR 1200. Too little too late Zero, I'm afraid. It will have the following:
Fairing.
Fast charging (petrol).
Automatic and smooth gear changes with the option to shift manually for more fun.
Panniers.
Up to 180 miles range at motorway speeds.
Enough performance to leave anything on four wheels for dust, except dragsters.
Shaft drive.
Traction control (I need it).
Excellent dealership support, if needed.
It's cheaper than the ex-demo 2014S that was for sale before Christmas and won't depreciate as quickly.
It will make a good sound.
It has Honda's reputation for build quality and reliability behind it.
It will feel like riding a proper motorcycle rather than a toy.
Sorry folks, I don't want to offend anyone and those are just facts and my personal opinion.
I could go on with the benefits over a Zero, but there are downsides too. The biggie is running costs. There are a few more too, well documented on this forum. Do I care? Not anymore.
Life is short my friends. Just today my wife told me that one of her cousins has been given a terminal diagnosis. He's in his thirties. I just want to have some good honest fun while I can. I hope my next bike is electric but it will have to be better than the current offering.
In the meantime I'll do what I can to try and help encourage people to participate in this fledgling industry. Just because I cannot justify buying a Zero right now doesn't mean that they aren't a great option for others. I can only have one bike at a time too. One day I hope to have a garage with at least three bikes in it. One of them will be electric and hopefully manufactured by Zero, if they have built themselves a better reputation for customer service by then...
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-1 for thread hijacking. Enjoy your ride, though.
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A few words about Zero here: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/zero-2016-launch-international-zev-alliance/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/zero-2016-launch-international-zev-alliance/)
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
You may think they are gimmicks but I don't think so at all. With the exception of the color touch screen and fast charging these items don't add a lot to the cost of the bike but they add a lot of value...in my opinion. Reverse would be a good feature to add because I know a lot of people want it and it would help Zero sell bikes. However, I personally don't put reverse high on my list. In the 8K miles I have put on my 2014 Zero S I can only think of one scenario where I was parking on a VERY steep driveway where I wished I had reverse. That said, I'm sure if I had it I would love it and use it all the time. On the other hand, over 8K miles I have often thought of other things missing from my bike...
- Factory heated grips
- Yes, you can get third party heated grips. I have some Oxford Heaterz that work great. But I shouldn't have to install myself and the controls for the heated grips should be integrated with the rest of the factory controls for a clean look.
- Cruise control
- This is cheap for Zero to add and for someone like me adds tremendous value. They already offer the ability to limit top speed in custom mode. Cruise control only requires hand controls and some real estate on the display. I hate hunting for a speed. As a commuter cruise control is a way for me to set my speed at a cop friendly value....its way too easy and fun to speed on a Zero. For longer rides cruise is a must have for the aforementioned peace of mind when passing the cops and to prevent hand cramping.
- Fairing
- Definitely not a gimmick. Essential to improve range and provide wind protection. The fairing can also add to the aesthetics if they do it right.
- Larger and lockable tank storage...big enough for a full face helmet
- I have a top box on my Zero. I would much rather have a larger storage area in the tank area that could be locked. A large tank could easily be added that would look good and then for most uses the top box is no longer required. Side cases that could be attached without needing an ugly frame and that can fit a full face helmet would actually be great too (I love the way they did it on the MV Augusta TURISMO VELOCE 800...in fact if they could just make that bike electric I would be throwing my money at them). If I were incrementally adding additional storage the top box is the last place I would add. Once everything else is full, go to the top box. Right now, the top box box is the only option for a Zero that will fit a helmet. And once again, this doesn't add a lot of cost to the bike.
- Fast charging
- Canceling turn signals
- Not a gimmick. I am notorious for forgetting to turn them off...which is dangerous....and lots of people are just like me.
- Traction control....probably would turn it off most of the time but would be great for bad weather days
- I can see why some call it a gimmick. I'm not sold either way. I have never had it on a bike and reviews I have seen can go either way. As long as I can default it OFF if I want, any help when conditions are less than ideal would be welcomed. Nobody's perfect all the time.
- Keyless operation and Full color touchscreen display
- The reason Tesla is winning is because they are going after the 'tech' crowd. The 'iPhone' crowd. The 'BMW' crowd. Keyless operation and the color touchscreen bring that something extra that gets people excited about the product and they add a lot to the convenience of using the bike. Especially if it included support for Android Auto and Apple Car Play so that you could put up navigation etc on the display. MUCH better than trying to mount cell phone. I have shattered a phone display after going over a pot hole and losing my cell phone from its mount. I shouldn't have to risk losing my cell phone and all the data on it in order to put up nav.
Long winded...sorry :-X
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Apologies for the thread hijacking. I thought it was relevant, but you're right Brian.
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
You may think they are gimmicks but I don't think so at all. With the exception of the color touch screen and fast charging these items don't add a lot to the cost of the bike but they add a lot of value...in my opinion. Reverse would be a good feature to add because I know a lot of people want it and it would help Zero sell bikes. However, I personally don't put reverse high on my list. In the 8K miles I have put on my 2014 Zero S I can only think of one scenario where I was parking on a VERY steep driveway where I wished I had reverse. That said, I'm sure if I had it I would love it and use it all the time. On the other hand, over 8K miles I have often thought of other things missing from my bike...
- Factory heated grips
- Yes, you can get third party heated grips. I have some Oxford Heaterz that work great. But I shouldn't have to install myself and the controls for the heated grips should be integrated with the rest of the factory controls for a clean look.
- Cruise control
- This is cheap for Zero to add and for someone like me adds tremendous value. They already offer the ability to limit top speed in custom mode. Cruise control only requires hand controls and some real estate on the display. I hate hunting for a speed. As a commuter cruise control is a way for me to set my speed at a cop friendly value....its way too easy and fun to speed on a Zero. For longer rides cruise is a must have for the aforementioned peace of mind when passing the cops and to prevent hand cramping.
- Fairing
- Definitely not a gimmick. Essential to improve range and provide wind protection. The fairing can also add to the aesthetics if they do it right.
- Larger and lockable tank storage...big enough for a full face helmet
- I have a top box on my Zero. I would much rather have a larger storage area in the tank area that could be locked. A large tank could easily be added that would look good and then for most uses the top box is no longer required. Side cases that could be attached without needing an ugly frame and that can fit a full face helmet would actually be great too (I love the way they did it on the MV Augusta TURISMO VELOCE 800...in fact if they could just make that bike electric I would be throwing my money at them). If I were incrementally adding additional storage the top box is the last place I would add. Once everything else is full, go to the top box. Right now, the top box box is the only option for a Zero that will fit a helmet. And once again, this doesn't add a lot of cost to the bike.
- Fast charging
- Canceling turn signals
- Not a gimmick. I am notorious for forgetting to turn them off...which is dangerous....and lots of people are just like me.
- Traction control....probably would turn it off most of the time but would be great for bad weather days
- I can see why some call it a gimmick. I'm not sold either way. I have never had it on a bike and reviews I have seen can go either way. As long as I can default it OFF if I want, any help when conditions are less than ideal would be welcomed. Nobody's perfect all the time.
- Keyless operation and Full color touchscreen display
- The reason Tesla is winning is because they are going after the 'tech' crowd. The 'iPhone' crowd. The 'BMW' crowd. Keyless operation and the color touchscreen bring that something extra that gets people excited about the product and they add a lot to the convenience of using the bike. Especially if it included support for Android Auto and Apple Car Play so that you could put up navigation etc on the display. MUCH better than trying to mount cell phone. I have shattered a phone display after going over a pot hole and losing my cell phone from its mount. I shouldn't have to risk losing my cell phone and all the data on it in order to put up nav.
Long winded...sorry :-X
Sounds like the standard equipment on the BMW C-Evolution, including a reverse (which I didn't know I would love).
Heated grips; CHECK
Cruise Control: Nope
Fairing: CHECK
Tank storage: No Tank (the optional topcase fits any type of helmet)
Fast Charging: CHECK
Canceling Turn Signals: CHECK
Traction Control: CHECK (but can't disable it)
Keyless: Nope
The keyless thing would be great, and I have no doubt it'll arrive shortly. BMW is already doing it for their cars. Imagine using an Apple Watch et al to start the thing up.
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+1 for a proper frunk by the way. That's one feature I'll miss from the NC750.
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Mike: How do you feel about riding the C-Evolution on the motorway? I once took a 125cc scooter on the M25 for a short hop. It coped, even though it wouldn't do more than 60mph.
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Mike: How do you feel about riding the C-Evolution on the motorway? I once took a 125cc scooter on the M25 for a short hop. It coped, even though it wouldn't do more than 60mph.
i don't. The speed is limited by software and although it's at the maximum of the motorway speed limit, you don't have any reserve to overtake if needed. But the Beemer wasn't made for motorways, it's a city scoot.
(Sorry for the hijack)....
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
You may think they are gimmicks but I don't think so at all. With the exception of the color touch screen and fast charging these items don't add a lot to the cost of the bike but they add a lot of value...in my opinion. Reverse would be a good feature to add because I know a lot of people want it and it would help Zero sell bikes. However, I personally don't put reverse high on my list. In the 8K miles I have put on my 2014 Zero S I can only think of one scenario where I was parking on a VERY steep driveway where I wished I had reverse. That said, I'm sure if I had it I would love it and use it all the time. On the other hand, over 8K miles I have often thought of other things missing from my bike...
...snip...
I'm hoping for improvements which improve the range, or reduce the price.
In my personal opinion Zero's are plenty expensive enough without adding factory whistles and bells.
So, my wish list, in order.
+ Improved Water Proofing
+ Fairing
+ Rapid / Improved charging.
+ Integrated J1772 / Mennekes charging.
+ Increased Battery Size.
+ Improved Water Proofing
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For me, the most important item is a field belt repair kit (Available for BMW motorcycles).
This is the only thing preventing me from deep off road riding with my FX.
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+1 on the belt repair kit. I found a guy who already made them for Harleys and wanted to add Zero kits to his line; I sent him my spare belt to work from, then he vanished. :(
My list's pretty short:
pull the milspec gear off the MMX and sell it to the public
technical info of any kind, for any year or any model
Ray
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Buy a chain kit, so much better than a belt and you can take the bike off-road.... They should come with a belt imo and switch to a belt optional
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- Factory heated grips
- Cruise control
- Canceling turn signals
- Keyless operation
- Full color touchscreen display
It's not that I think the above are necessarily gimmicky(*) -- different strokes for different folks, and I rode year-round in Boston for 3 years, without heated grips, on an old BMW Boxer, and they sure would've been nice (-: ; However, they're not core features. Zero is still a tiny company, and I want them to concentrate on electric drivetrain and overall usability. Right now, the top 3 important issues preventing further sales IMO are range, range and range, and that's the key to further development of the company.
A Zero bike has more than enough range for most commutes, so that's not the problem; however, if all you want to do is commute short-to-medium distances, an electric (or non) scooter is a lot cheaper, and for short distances, an electric bicycle is a still more cost-effective solution.
Until I can do a day's worth of sport-touring (100mi at freeway speeds each way to get to the nice roads, plus another 150-200mi of slower twisties/sweepers), an e-motorcycle isn't on the table for me, as much as I'd like the idea, nor, IMHO
for riders who aren't EV aficionados.
This is the most significant market enabler, and if Zero aren't concentrating on that above and beyond anything else, they're making a big mistake (IMO).
The day trip mentioned above requires 3X the range of the highest current range EV motorcycle (Zero S with larger battery + PowerTank). That's not taking into account spirited acceleration/braking, a pillion, headwinds etc..
You can't add a lot of battery weight onto a bike. If the battery's range can be extended 50% by a combo of higher energy density and a fairing, and the bike can be charged to 90% in 30-45min using a DCQC, I could do that day trip with two charging stops.
This means IMO Zero should work on, in order, on the product side:
1) A fairing (probably better short-term gains than denser battery) option
2) DC quick charging, which is not just a bike-tech problem -- it turns out most DCQC chargers don't support the Zero's voltages, and Zero should take that up with the industry.
3) Denser batteries
...I guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks what they have been working on (aside from marketing, which is obviously important as well) :-)
As for a larger compartment in the "gas tank", I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have one there large enough for most full-face helmets. I do wish it was metal-topped, however -- I've over a dozen tankbags. None of the strap-based ones work, and all the magnetic ones do.
Re a touch display, I think it's a bad idea on a motorcycle in terms of convenient control and visibility in sunlight (hell, I think LCD gauges are a bad idea -- I've yet to see a setup which is as easy to read or cost-effective to repair as old-style analog.)
(*) Sorry, but IMO keyless ignition is a horrible idea, especially on an electric vehicle. It makes the concept of whether the bike is currently on or not a fuzzy condition, instead of a binary one. An ignition key, where you develop the good habit of removing it from the bike as soon as you dismount, is conceptually much simpler and safer.
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I want:
a gear indicator
Catalysts in the exhausts
Twin spark
Engine oil check window
hydraulic clutch
Automatic valve adjustment
:)
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Regarding the DC chargers, most actually do support Zero's.
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I want:
a gear indicator
Catalysts in the exhausts
Twin spark
Engine oil check window
hydraulic clutch
Automatic valve adjustment
:)
C'mon, you forgot the tachometer. And programmable exhaust-noise maker, like the BMW electric cars have...
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Regarding the DC chargers, most actually do support Zero's.
I have no direct experience in this, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but not according to this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.0), and according to this (http://www.gizmag.com/zero-electric-motorcycles-factory-2015/35865/) ("The problem with fast charge stations", about midway on the page) the issue is still very far from fixed.
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I have no direct experience in this, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but not according to this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.0), and according to this (http://www.gizmag.com/zero-electric-motorcycles-factory-2015/35865/) ("The problem with fast charge stations", about midway on the page) the issue is still very far from fixed.
It's going to take a while before the entire issue is resolved, but I believe what Erasmo is saying is that the number of Blink and EVTEC chargers, which don't support battery voltage down to 50V (per the spec) just isn't that great. Before Zero removed the CHAdeMO adapter from the market, I was considering getting one, and it seems like most of the units in my area would work for me. Didn't test any of them so I can't know for sure, but it looked like it might be a good option in the SoCal area.
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OK, without kidding:
- My BMW i3 has connected drive and I can see from any place with smartphone, tablet or pc what the charge status is of my car, and locate my car. I would love to see this with my Zero.
- A more powerful (at least 3,6 kW or 3 phase) internal charger with Type 2 connector
- A better cooling system for the engine. Now, its too often overheated
- A seat quick release to get access to the store room under the seat
- Standard USB connector for power supply
- change custom mode settings from the dashboard
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More power density to the battery packs enabling longer range.
On board faster charging using a Tesla like cable that has adapters for many standard NEMA outlets.
LED Headlights and running lights
price reduction
longest warranty in the M/C business - like Tesla - 8 years unlimited miles for powertrain.
DSR
FXR
Military Discount for Veterans
Off Road Panniers for the FXR
A referral program like Tesla
A fairing
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I have no direct experience in this, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but not according to this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.0), and according to this (http://www.gizmag.com/zero-electric-motorcycles-factory-2015/35865/) ("The problem with fast charge stations", about midway on the page) the issue is still very far from fixed.
It's going to take a while before the entire issue is resolved, but I believe what Erasmo is saying is that the number of Blink and EVTEC chargers, which don't support battery voltage down to 50V (per the spec) just isn't that great. Before Zero removed the CHAdeMO adapter from the market, I was considering getting one, and it seems like most of the units in my area would work for me. Didn't test any of them so I can't know for sure, but it looked like it might be a good option in the SoCal area.
Ditto on the east coast. Zero is stuck thinking 80% of chargers won't work, however I think that is only a local issue. There are no blink level 3 chargers near me and most Chademo chargers currently on the East coast are at Nissan dealers, which do work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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+1 for the referral scheme. Marketing is something Zero must be short of funds for. Working with the power of word of mouth must be a strategy worth pursuing. Another reason why customer service and reliability should be addressed as a priority.
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By the way, guess who's going to have egg on his face in a couple of weeks if Zero announce a sport tourer? Fairing and fast charging and you can all feel free to mock me over the VFR purchase!
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By the way, guess who's going to have egg on his face in a couple of weeks if Zero announce a sport tourer? Fairing and fast charging and you can all feel free to mock me over the VFR purchase!
I hardly think you need to be worried ;) Pretty much no chance Zero will be in a position to release a bike that can compete on all parameters with the VFR. That's too big a step for one year... Not to mention, right now I don't think it's even a question of price -- batteries don't yet exist which could do this.
That's probably like 3 steps away -- 5 years or so.
(That said, frankly, no offense -- while I've never ridden the VFR1200, I have ridden both a early 1990s and a 2004 (rented for a 200km trip), and they left me completely cold. Much more like a car than a bike, and I would never buy the current version given the poor fuel tank range. Come to think of it, that's one thing it has in common with current e-motorcycles).
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I'd be willing to compromise on power for a Zero with a fairing and fast charging. Owning an NC750S for six months has taught me that naked bikes aren't suitable for regular or sustained motorway journeys, especially with winter approaching.
Even though 95-99% of my motorcycling is done on my commute, I still need to know that I can take a bike out for a day's ride and not have to stop for any length of time, other than when I desire to eat and rest.
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I have no direct experience in this, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but not according to this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3308.0), and according to this (http://www.gizmag.com/zero-electric-motorcycles-factory-2015/35865/) ("The problem with fast charge stations", about midway on the page) the issue is still very far from fixed.
It's going to take a while before the entire issue is resolved, but I believe what Erasmo is saying is that the number of Blink and EVTEC chargers, which don't support battery voltage down to 50V (per the spec) just isn't that great. Before Zero removed the CHAdeMO adapter from the market, I was considering getting one, and it seems like most of the units in my area would work for me. Didn't test any of them so I can't know for sure, but it looked like it might be a good option in the SoCal area.
Spot on. I' still have to encounter the first DC charger that doesn't go down to 50V here in the Netherlands.
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
I'm surprised few people suggest a parking brake. Flatlander. :)
Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk
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You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4331.0). ;)
Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.
The essentials are: fairing and charging.
I'm surprised few people suggest a parking brake. Flatlander. :)
I forgot about that one.
The lack of some kind of simple safety device to prevent accidental roll-away is serious, given what a motorbike weighs.
In a lot of places laws require you to place a bike in gear when parked (in addition to every motorcycle handbook / training course saying the same), so I'm a bit surprised one isn't legally required.
All auto-transmission bikes I can recall offhand -- some weren't strictly auto, since you had to shift, but would still roll with the engine off -- MotoGuzzi V1000 Convert, Honda Hondamatic CM400A, Suzuki GS450A, Aprilia Mana, Honda DN01, Honda NC700, VFR 1200F DCT) had/have a cable-actuated brake locking one of the rotors. Adding such a cable as stock would a cheap & effective solution.
(The kludgey straps I've read about that compress the brake lever to the handlebars look like a bad idea to me -- besides being kludgey, AFAIK brake fluid seals are not designed to be under pressure this way for long periods of time and might deform prematurely.)
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Can't way to see what they have !
But I'm going to stick with my 2013 S, my money is currently focused on the house and on the Leaf.
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By the way, guess who's going to have egg on his face in a couple of weeks if Zero announce a sport tourer? Fairing and fast charging and you can all feel free to mock me over the VFR purchase!
I hardly think you need to be worried ;) Pretty much no chance Zero will be in a position to release a bike that can compete on all parameters with the VFR. That's too big a step for one year... Not to mention, right now I don't think it's even a question of price -- batteries don't yet exist which could do this.
That's probably like 3 steps away -- 5 years or so.
(That said, frankly, no offense -- while I've never ridden the VFR1200, I have ridden both a early 1990s and a 2004 (rented for a 200km trip), and they left me completely cold. Much more like a car than a bike, and I would never buy the current version given the poor fuel tank range. Come to think of it, that's one thing it has in common with current e-motorcycles).
I bought a 1999 VFR800 a little while ago. Zero "could" build something like that for 2016. Will they? Probably not, but here's hoping.
The VFR gets around 45 mpg on the highway and has a 5 gallon tank. A bit over 200 miles of highway range.
Zero could build a 20 kWh battery pack from their current cells, as mentioned previously. Or maybe they could use the LG cells powering the Bolt @ $145/kWh (http://insideevs.com/gm-chevrolet-bolt-for-2016-145kwh-cell-cost-volt-margin-improves-3500/). I suppose Zero's costs are around $5k for its current 11 kWh pack, assembled. If they were able to get slightly higher pricing than GM, considering their lower volume - they could perhaps introduce a 20 kWh pack at the same cost as their current 11 kWh pack.
20 kWh would give you 150 miles of highway range with the unfaired 2015 type bike, but easily 200 miles with some aero improvements.
Component weights for the 2013 ZF11.4 S (387 lbs):
- 112 Farasis 25 Ah cells, 10 kWh - 120 lbs
- battery enclosure, internal structure, BMS, cabling, etc - 50 lbs
- controller - 5.9 lbs
- charger - 9.5 lbs
- ZF75-7 motor - 39 lbs
- "Rest of bike" - 162.6 lbs
A 2015 SR ZF12.5 weighs 414 pounds, a gain of 37 pounds over that 2013 S model. The frame is beefier, the wheels and tires are a little larger, the controller is heavier.
What would a sport-touring bike look like, starting from the 414 lb 2015 SR?
- higher capacity pack - +60 pounds
I haven't seen any information on the battery density for the LG cells in the Bolt. LG is shipping 3500 mAh 18650s today at around 270 Wh/kg. Similar density on their pouch cells would put the cell weight at around 160 lbs (a gain of 40). A larger battery enclosure and slightly longer frame might add another 20 pounds.
- ABS / fiberglass fairing - +20 pounds
This wouldn't necessarily have to be as large or as wide as the Vetter fairing. I'm convinced highway power consumption could drop to 100 Wh/mile with a lighter bike and a slightly less aerodynamic but ultimately narrower fairing.
- 3 kW J1772 AC charger - same weight
Zero could switch to the same Eltek charger used on the Brammo bikes today. This would give the bike a 7-8 hour charge time from empty, which would suffice for overnight charging.
- Tesla Supercharger inlet and interface boards - +5 pounds
- further beef up the frame, suspension - +10 pounds
- dual front brakes, 160 mm width rear tire and wheels - +15 pounds
Kind of expected on a sport-tourer.
Puts the bike around 500 pounds. Right around the VFR800 "wet weight". A little slower - think SR ZF12.5 power tank with an extra 40 pounds. A little less highway range, a little higher city / backroads range. With the fairing - and possibly a slightly smaller rear pulley - continuous speed highway operation could improve to 90-100 mph.
Zero could sell a 200 mile electric in 2016 or 2017 for around $20k (more realistically somewhat higher), and probably make a profit on it. It doesn't require magic technology. If the Tesla Superchargers do support voltages down to 50V, then they could get a 20 minute 20-80% charge (120 miles) along all the Supercharger-enabled interstate routes today.
Will Zero do it? Who knows. It would be a pretty big jump for them. But their engineers surely have something like this knocking around. The technical challenges are (relatively speaking) small, the harder challenge will be the business case to jump from selling electrics at $10-18k to $25k and locking in a cheaper supply of higher-density cells.
How many people would pay $20k for a 150 mile Zero, or $25k for a 200 mile Zero with access to Tesla's Supercharger network? I think they could do pretty well; the 2014 SR started at $18k, and (according to the EV owner map) sold quite well. Double the range, sort the quick charging issue, and I think they would sell every one they could build.
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I would if they add the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty. sign me up! (btw i am a former owner of a 2004 VFR 800 - loved the bike - however hated the power delivery of the VTEC engine)....
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As for a larger compartment in the "gas tank", I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have one there large enough for most full-face helmets. I do wish it was metal-topped, however -- I've over a dozen tankbags. None of the strap-based ones work, and all the magnetic ones do.
Re a touch display, I think it's a bad idea on a motorcycle in terms of convenient control and visibility in sunlight (hell, I think LCD gauges are a bad idea -- I've yet to see a setup which is as easy to read or cost-effective to repair as old-style analog.)
It's definitely not impossible to have a storage tank large enough for a full face helmet. You could easily get 30L or more in the tank area, which is big enough for a full face helmet. If I remove the tank from my Zero S and set the helmet directly on top of the battery pack the top of the helmet is only a few inches higher that the current tank. For an idea of how this might work check out the 3D renderings done by a Tesla fan.
http://silodrome.com/tesla-model-m/ (http://silodrome.com/tesla-model-m/)
(http://cdn.silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Tesla-Model-M-Design.jpg)
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- Tesla Supercharger inlet and interface boards - +5 pounds
- further beef up the frame, suspension - +10 pounds
A partnership with Tesla would be amazing! Per statements made by Elon Musk, anyone is free to use their patents without any coordination. However, for Zero customers to get access to the Tesla supercharger network Zero would have to pay part of the costs of the charging infrastructure. Tesla has stated that they would only expect partners to pay according to usage. In theory Zero would then pay only a percentage of the total costs since Zero owners would only use a fraction of the electricity as a Tesla by virtue of the much smaller battery pack on a Zero and the fact that there are a lot more Tesla cars than there are Zero motorcycles.
I'm not sure the frame needs to be beefed up. In fact, at some point the concept of a frame on a motorcycle needs to change drastically on electric bikes. With an ICE you need a solid frame to CARRY the motor and gas tank and to absorb the vibration from the motor. This isn't necessary with an electric drive train. The Tesla Model S uses the battery pack as an integral part of the structure of the car. Electric motorcycle makers will need to do the same thing. Rather than creating a frame that carries the battery pack they need to make the battery pack itself an integral part of the overall structural integrity of the bike. Making this shift will drastically reduce the weight of the bike which increases range and improves performance.
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(*) Sorry, but IMO keyless ignition is a horrible idea, especially on an electric vehicle. It makes the concept of whether the bike is currently on or not a fuzzy condition, instead of a binary one. An ignition key, where you develop the good habit of removing it from the bike as soon as you dismount, is conceptually much simpler and safer.
All it takes is some clever engineering. Harley has a really interesting keyless operation concept that could be adapted. The bike has a knob where the key would normally go. The knob can only be turned when the key fob is in range. You can even lock the steering column using the knob and you can use a key for back up if the battery in the FOB is dead. They could make it so that if you walk away with the knob in the RUN position the bike shuts off. When you walk back up to the bike, if the knob is already in the RUN position you are required to turn to the OFF position and then back to the RUN position before you can ride away. Bingo...its still a binary decision....its easy because you don't have to pull a key out of your pocket....you don't have a set of keys rattling around scratching paint....and if you walk away without turning the bike off it does it for you and even though the steering won't be locked at least its better than the times I accidentally walked away from my bike with the key still in the ignition.
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- My BMW i3 has connected drive and I can see from any place with smartphone, tablet or pc what the charge status is of my car, and locate my car. I would love to see this with my Zero.
- A better cooling system for the engine. Now, its too often overheated
Definitely need a way to remotely monitor state of charge. At home this should be through WIFI instead of the current limitation of bluetooth. If the bike is plugged in at home it can connect to WIFI and I can monitor state of charge no matter where I am. If the bike is charging at a public charging station that probably means adding cellular connectivity to the bike.
Benswing talked about this in his videos during his trip to Mexico.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKl1OHAhj-Q&list=PLbWCCYJCsilotFiverwYK4GeKno-KAyAt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKl1OHAhj-Q&list=PLbWCCYJCsilotFiverwYK4GeKno-KAyAt)
Liquid cooling would be great too. If they add a quick charging capability then air cooling isn't going to cut it if you plan to ride 100+ miles at 70-80 MPH then recharge and do it again. Some people will still want the simplicity of an air cooled bike but they need a liquid cooled option in their lineup.
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Liquid cooling would be great too. If they add a quick charging capability then air cooling isn't going to cut it if you plan to ride 100+ miles at 70-80 MPH then recharge and do it again. Some people will still want the simplicity of an air cooled bike but they need a liquid cooled option in their lineup.
With a larger battery pack, highway discharge will be on the order of 0.3-0.4C. It shouldn't heat up as much as a smaller pack.
A 60% charge in 20 minutes will likely heat the pack some, and they may well need to adopt at least forced air cooling like the Nissan LEAF to support this.
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Has anyone tried a simple air scoop pointed at the motor? It is tucked behind the battery pack real cozy. A simple plastic elbow might help. It would hurt the overall air flow of the bike but in the summer might be worth it. Just pop on or off depending on the season. That Lightning has some nice features at least in theory. Oil cooled motor case the acts as rear frame support. Liquid cooled electronics and air cooled battery. The Ego has air slots to both cool the battery and let air get back to the motor. I think they have a patent on it though.
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With a larger battery pack, highway discharge will be on the order of 0.3-0.4C. It shouldn't heat up as much as a smaller pack.
A 60% charge in 20 minutes will likely heat the pack some, and they may well need to adopt at least forced air cooling like the Nissan LEAF to support this.
I was really talking about the motor. I have only gone for a test drive on an SR so I can't speak for how well the "high temp permanent magnets" perform but I can tell you that the motor on the Zero S starts to heat up when you are traveling at highway speeds for an extended period of time. I think that guys that race are also running into problems with the SR motor overheating when pushing the bike hard.
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Has anyone tried a simple air scoop pointed at the motor? It is tucked behind the battery pack real cozy. A simple plastic elbow might help. It would hurt the overall air flow of the bike but in the summer might be worth it. Just pop on or off depending on the season. That Lightning has some nice features at least in theory. Oil cooled motor case the acts as rear frame support. Liquid cooled electronics and air cooled battery. The Ego has air slots to both cool the battery and let air get back to the motor. I think they have a patent on it though.
My gut tells me that if you want to scoop air towards the motor to cool things down in any kind of significant way you are going to need to do more than just redirect ambient air. I think you would need to at least cool the air before blowing it on the motor and in that case I'm guessing it would be more efficient to liquid cool the motor directly...like lightning.
Making the motor part of the frame support like lightning would also be a good move for Zero. They should also make the battery pack itself part of the frame support too. I think a lot of weight could be shed by incorporating the motor and battery into the frame rather than building a big heavy frame strong enough to carry the weight of the two.
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The SR frame weighs 23 pounds. With the modifications that would be necessary to incorporate the motor and the battery pack as integral frame pieces I doubt that there would be much potential weight saving.
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Zero could build a 20 kWh battery pack from their current cells, as mentioned previously. Or maybe they could use the LG cells powering the Bolt @ $145/kWh (http://insideevs.com/gm-chevrolet-bolt-for-2016-145kwh-cell-cost-volt-margin-improves-3500/). I suppose Zero's costs are around $5k for its current 11 kWh pack, assembled. If they were able to get slightly higher pricing than GM, considering their lower volume - they could perhaps introduce a 20 kWh pack at the same cost as their current 11 kWh pack.
Luke Workman from Zero recently did an interview with Troy from motorcycle.com in which he mentions a woman, Dr. Ann Marie Sastry, who has created a prototype solid state battery that supposedly has twice the energy density of today's solutions and per an article in the Wall Street Journal (http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-battery-revolution-a-clean-leap-forward-1426461806/) they think they can hit a $100/kWh. Luke says Zero hasn't been able to get any samples which isn't surprising. With the investments the company, Sakti3 (http://sakti3.com/), has from Dyson and GM, Zero isn't going to be first in line for these batteries.
Inside Batteries: Zero Motorcycles Senior Battery Specialist, Luke Workman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk)
Sakti3: The Next-Generation Battery Company You Need to Know About (http://blog.caranddriver.com/sakti3-the-next-generation-battery-company-you-need-to-know-about/)
Thus, I think the 2016 lineup is out of the question....maybe like 2018? For this year I think we will see another incremental increase in energy density....which probably means a ZF14 without power tank. Oddly, the energy density of the power tank didn't increase from 2014 to 2015 staying at 2.8kWh....maybe this year that will bump up too? Maybe a 3.5kWh power tank to bring the total with power tank up to 17.5kWh for 2016?
Combined with another 30% increase from the addition of a fairing we could be looking at 108 mile range at 70MPH without a power tank and 135 mile range at 70MPH with a power tank.
If they do jump up to 20kWh I just hope they keep the center of gravity low....if they can do that then you could get up to 155 miles at 70MPH with a fairing....double the current range....which would be great but they also need to address quick charging or you will be waiting a long time to charge that sucker up.
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....I'm guessing it would be more efficient to liquid cool the motor directly...like lightning.
Liquid cooling is overrated. It has two chief advantages: 1) You can mount the radiator remotely, so it's easier to get in the airstream, and 2) It's trivial to add a thermostat, important for ICEs which need to get UP to operating temperature before they operate properly. (There are minor advantages too, like quieter operation and the ability to use engine heat to heat the cabin of the vehicle.) But as a rule, air-cooled systems are smaller, lighter, cheaper, less complex, more reliable, require less maintenance, and if properly designed, are every bit as effective as liquid cooling.
It's the last point where I think the Zero falls short. The heat sink fins on the motor are oriented side-to-side on the bike, meaning airflow needs to be sideways to effectively pull heat out of the fins, but that may be irrelevant since no attempt is made to direct air over the motor anyhow. The motor controller, by comparison, has front-to-back heat sink fins, located in a very good position for excellent airflow. It's also anodized black which helps a bit and looks cool besides.
I'm convinced that a simple design incorporating a scoop on one side to bring air into the motor area, and a jet of air on the other side to assist in evacuating air from that area, would massively improve the cooling of the motor. I'd be a little concerned about increasing the heat load to the battery pack by cooling the motor better, but that's monitored too and my guess is it would be okay.
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It's the last point where I think the Zero falls short. The heat sink fins on the motor are oriented side-to-side on the bike, meaning airflow needs to be sideways to effectively pull heat out of the fins, but that may be irrelevant since no attempt is made to direct air over the motor anyhow. The motor controller, by comparison, has front-to-back heat sink fins, located in a very good position for excellent airflow. It's also anodized black which helps a bit and looks cool besides.
I'm convinced that a simple design incorporating a scoop on one side to bring air into the motor area, and a jet of air on the other side to assist in evacuating air from that area, would massively improve the cooling of the motor. I'd be a little concerned about increasing the heat load to the battery pack by cooling the motor better, but that's monitored too and my guess is it would be okay.
I agree with pretty much everything you said....it just comes down to objectives. If you just want a bike that is going to be limited to 100MPH and can sustain speeds of 70-80MPH for 100+ miles then you could probably get there with some improvements to air flow around the motor. Thats all a lot of people want....which is why Zero definitely shouldn't get rid of the current S/DS/SR air cooled configuration.
I just think they need to add a liquid cooled bike to the lineup, because if you want a bike that makes for a greater commuter but can also be taken to track days on the weekend then you need something that is capable of 140MPH or better and I don't think you can do it with ambient air no matter how well designed.
But if Zero doesn't do it there is always the hot rodding route: The Life Electric: Next Gen Hot Rodding (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjm2_Zay-JQ). At minute 8 they specifically discuss the attempts to improve air flow and the ultimate decision to go with liquid cooling. Air alone under track conditions just doesn't cut it.
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Thus, I think the 2016 lineup is out of the question....maybe like 2018? For this year I think we will see another incremental increase in energy density....which probably means a ZF14 without power tank. Oddly, the energy density of the power tank didn't increase from 2014 to 2015 staying at 2.8kWh....maybe this year that will bump up too? Maybe a 3.5kWh power tank to bring the total with power tank up to 17.5kWh for 2016?
Zero's battery architecture since 2013 has been "bricks" of 28 cells in series. For 2013-2014 and for the 2015 FX bricks, these cells are 25 Ah high-power cells that can discharged at 8C (2.5 kWh per brick = 20 kW max power).
For the 2015 S/DS bikes, the relative power requirements are lower (2015 SR = 50 kW from 10 kWh = 5C) so they switched to using 27 Ah high-energy cells that don't need to be able to discharge as quickly (2.8 kWh per brick).
ZF5.7 FX = 33 kW from 5 kWh = 6.6C (high-power)
ZF8.5 S = 40 kW from 7.5 kWh = 5.3C (high-power, 2014)
ZF9.5 S = 40 kW from 8.3 kWh = 4.8C (high-energy, 2015)
ZF12.5 SR = 50 kW from 11 kWh = 4.5C (high-energy, 2015)
Zero could certainly build their power tank from the 27 Ah cells, which would give a small amount of extra energy. If they offer a power tank for 2016 they might do this.
Keep in mind for heating purposes as well that the fairing will significantly reduce the power requirements for highway travel, ie 2012 S = 12.8 kW for highway 70 mph, 2013-2015S = 9.8 kW for highway travel, faired Zero = 7 kW for highway travel. Less power required results in less heat produced .. though the fairing may also reduce air moving over the motor fins.
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For the 2015 S/DS bikes, the relative power requirements are lower (2015 SR = 50 kW from 10 kWh = 5C)...
I must be missing something...both 2014 and 2015 list max power at 50kW....how are the relative power requirements lower?
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For the 2015 S/DS bikes, the relative power requirements are lower (2015 SR = 50 kW from 10 kWh = 5C)...
I must be missing something...both 2014 and 2015 list max power at 50kW....how are the relative power requirements lower?
2014 SR has a 10 kWh pack (4 bricks of 28 25 Ah cells .. I think this is actually 28 * 3.65V * 24.5 Ah * 4 = 10 kWh).
2015 SR has an 11 kWh pack (4 bricks of 28 27 Ah cells .. 28 * 3.65V * 27 Ah * 4 = 11 kWh).
Because the peak power draw is the same but the pack is larger, the relative power draw per cell is lower.
Similarly, with a fairing to decrease the highway power requirement and a much larger battery pack, the relative power draw will be much lower still. 50 kW peak / 20 kWh = 2.5C peak, 7 kW highway operation / 20 kWh = 0.35C.
Compare to highway 70 mph riding on 2012S ZF9 which was 12.8 kW / 7.9 kWh = 1.6C, or 2013S ZF11.4 which was 1.0C.
Numbers approximate but I hope you take my point.
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Numbers approximate but I hope you take my point.
Yeah, I'm following you.
If LG's batteries are as good as their marketing I hope Zero does put these in the 2016 bikes. I couldn't help but laugh at these videos....This unrivaled technology is LG Chem's Worldwide First and Best Patented Technology! Haha
LG Chem Electric Vehicle Battery Production Process (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9HbHZXEEDs)
LG Chem Advanced Automotive Battery & Polymer Pouch Cell PR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Lczd7MjGc)
LG Chem Electric Vehicle Battery PR Film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVkosSr_xak)
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....I'm guessing it would be more efficient to liquid cool the motor directly...like lightning.
Liquid cooling is overrated. It has two chief advantages: 1) You can mount the radiator remotely, so it's easier to get in the airstream, and 2) It's trivial to add a thermostat, important for ICEs which need to get UP to operating temperature before they operate properly. (There are minor advantages too, like quieter operation and the ability to use engine heat to heat the cabin of the vehicle.) But as a rule, air-cooled systems are smaller, lighter, cheaper, less complex, more reliable, require less maintenance, and if properly designed, are every bit as effective as liquid cooling.
I also greatly dislike liquid cooling on motorcycles as a rule -- it runs counter to the minimalist, simple-method-of-transportation aspect which is a major appeal of bikes for me.
Passive air-cooling is as simple as you can get -- no fragile radiator to get damaged, no reservoir to monitor, no hoses to replace. Even semi-passive systems, like the air/oil ones on some BMW Boxers and like my Suzuki Bandit had, work extremely well.
However, in an ICE, that means a wider operating temperature range (ambient temperature can be anywhere from, say, -15°C to 45°C (5°F -o 115°F), which in turn means a less efficient engine.
I don't know how this applies to e-motorcycles, but it would certainly affect current battery chemistries; E-motorcycle are worse off to start with range-wise than BEV cars, so I'd expect they have less of a margin. And it certainly matters in car EVs -- the only common model without a cooling system, the LEAF, had lots of issues.
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Please bring back a purebred MX bike. Please?
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Going back to the original post, needing glasses to read these days, it's impossible to read the trip meter/other settings in this section of the display.
So it would be nice if the numbers were as big as the battery SOC %.
Instead of putting the read outs one above the other, they could put them side by side, then they could be as big as the SOC %.
The heading could go beside the numbers in small print (same size they are now). Don't need to read the heading once selected.
Also the time could be a bit bigger too.
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However, in an ICE, that means a wider operating temperature range (ambient temperature can be anywhere from, say, -15°C to 45°C (5°F -o 115°F), which in turn means a less efficient engine.
Actually, an air-cooling system is less effected by high ambient temperatures than a liquid cooling system. Heat transfer rate is proportional to the temperature difference between the two objects. In the case of an air-cooled engine, that's the difference between (say) a 50F airstream and a 400F cylinder head, or 350 degrees F. Now if the ambient temperature rises by 50F, you still have 300F temperature differential, and you've only lost 1/7th of your ability to shed heat.
But in a water-cooled engine, on the cooler day the temperature difference between 50F air and a 250F radiator is 200F, which goes down to 150F on a 100F day. You've lost 25% of your cooling ability.
It's counter-intuitive, but it's true....air-cooled engines suffer less on high-temperature days than water-cooled engines. That and lighter weight are the big reasons most small airplane engines are still air-cooled.
BTW I apologize for my part in hijacking this thread.
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It is not just the heat differential that matters but also the ability to cool. I don't know about engines, but for people, we lose it is said 25 *times* more heat in water than we do in air with the same temperature. That's why hypothermia occurs very fast (minutes) in cold water where we can survive hours in the same temperature air.
The only way to settle that is by looking at the math formulae for the heat exchange with liquids and gasses and plug-in several heat differential values and the correct heat absorption (heat capacity) values and see if the larger heat differential under normal operating temperatures with air will outweigh the higher heat absorption capacity of the coolant.
I'll give another empirical example of water cooling being a LOT more effective than air cooling, with *exactly* the same temperature differential and exactly the same cooling surfaces in both cases. I make home-made yogurt. The milk is boiled, so 212F. It needs to cool off to about 112F before I add the yogurt starter, which dies in hotter milk and does not work well in colder milk. If I leave the container with hot milk to cool in the air on the porch outside, it takes several hours to cool-off in 40F air. It takes just minutes in 40F tap water to cool off. Now, that might not be fair, because I replace the water that warms-up with colder water from the tap, where on a motorbike I would need to air-cool it with a radiator, and if that radiator is small, it won't be as effective as just getting new cold liquid in the system as I do with the milk. But the point of radiators is not just to get the air cooling exchange in a better place where there is more airflow, but to also have a larger cooling surface than the motor would allow. So they increase the heat exchange 3-ways: more cooling surface, better circulation, higher thermal capacity of the liquid.
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You miss one very important factor, the temperature of the cooling medium.
Yes you lose heat faster in a liquid that is 10°C but the medium isn't 10°C but 80-90°C.
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@Kocho: Yes, water has a much higher heat capacity than air does, so it can absorb much more heat, much faster. But eventually that heat has to be dumped into the airstream, which happens at the radiator. I'm comparing dumping heat directly into the airstream off of the cylinder heads themselves (air-cooled engine) vs. dumping heat from the radiator into the airstream (water-cooled engine), without considering the intermediate transfer from the cylinder heads to the coolant. In either case, eventually all the heat the motor's creating has to wind up in the airstream somehow.
And again, sorry to OP for hijacking his thread.
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Hey all of this is design issues that we have found and are helping or at least not hurting by giving out ideas to help the bikes in the future, be it 2016 or years later. Now I really like my Zero and it does what I need it to do but I think all of the E bikes are based on ICE bike designs with electric power trains. It helps to sell to a public that is used to this way of looking and acting. Is it the best format for these bikes?
The bike shouldn't overheat even under full out power. How can this be fixed?
I saw a video (yes I watch a lot of You Tube) of a Ronin 47 an old Buell 1125 modified to a funky love it or hate it design.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04TnKdj4Qyw#)
What caught my eye was the front fork and radiator.
So if you don't get fork height change then you can have a belt at the same distance.
If you can have a belt there then why not a drive motor above it or a shaft drive.
The springs of the suspension would be above the motor so motor to wheel to motor distance is the same
It could be used as either the sole drive motor or two wheel drive.
The motor at the front of the bike in the main air stream cool as can be.
Everybody is happy. If it works.
Somebody go spend a bunch of money on this and tell me how it turns out.
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Hey all of this is design issues that we have found and are helping or at least not hurting by giving out ideas to help the bikes in the future, be it 2016 or years later. Now I really like my Zero and it does what I need it to do but I think all of the E bikes are based on ICE bike designs with electric power trains. It helps to sell to a public that is used to this way of looking and acting. Is it the best format for these bikes?
The bike shouldn't overheat even under full out power. How can this be fixed?
What caught my eye was the front fork and radiator.
So if you don't get fork height change then you can have a belt at the same distance.
If you can have a belt there then why not a drive motor above it or a shaft drive.
The springs of the suspension would be above the motor so motor to wheel to motor distance is the same
It could be used as either the sole drive motor or two wheel drive.
The motor at the front of the bike in the main air stream cool as can be.
Everybody is happy. If it works.
Somebody go spend a bunch of money on this and tell me how it turns out.
I like the general idea of a totally different motorcycle design. This particular one seems like it'd have a ton of teething issues and might not work out. :)
That said, that'd be a lot of risk so we won't likely see a radically different production design for a few years, at least at scale (Lito Sora, Zecoo, etc only count as custom small-batch designs).
If Zero changed its motor and battery arrangement, that alone would be a kind of a big step. They might have to retool a lot around a new frame and cable routing and deal with new quality issues... sigh, this alone makes my head hurt. Motorcycle design is hard; I'm guessing they're focusing on making the MBB and BMS boards more robust since that probably costs them the most in warrantee interactions. Cooling architecture considerations probably take second place to reliability and constantly pushing range a bit each year.
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Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.
I'm extremely excited to see what they bring to the table for the 2016 model year.
For me i agree that the largest concerns would be (mileage, price, and hot weather performance) anything else would be icing on the cake but i don't feel like it's necessary at this time and could be added on aftermarket for those who would want it.
I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.
i'll leave the mathematical debate up to the thermodynamics engineers but i think there is definitely some cost effective room for improvement for cooling the motor. whether it be simply re-directing the airflow to more efficiently pull heat away during higher speeds when demand is greatest, Liquid cooling, expanded heatsink through the frame, or some kind of crazy evaporation method.
I'm probably going to start another thread for this but i'm surprised to see there hasn't been more of a aftermarket startup innovation to address some of these concerns instead of just waiting for zero's response.
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Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.
Welcome!
I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.
It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.
Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.
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Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.
Welcome!
I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.
It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.
Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.
Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.
Welcome!
I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.
It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.
Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.
Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good points, The motor seems tucked away pretty tight behind the battery at the moment. hopefully some paneling could be designed in such a fashion to pull heat away from critical components as it was directed through/past.
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It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.
Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.
Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary.
That is ... the opposite of what I meant. Reducing the drag coefficient would reduce the heat produced by the motor. You don't need special cooling measures if you're producing less heat.
Who are you people who max out the cooling capacity on every outing? This is why motorcycle journalists seem so insane, because they're trying to emulate your expectations and not mine.
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That doesn't sound right at all SteveInNC. I was trying to get my SR to overheat and couldn't do it. What kind of riding are you doing?
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That doesn't sound right at all SteveInNC. I was trying to get my SR to overheat and couldn't do it. What kind of riding are you doing?
Spirited ;D up the side of a mountain mostly. I have to be really careful because I've had a few instances that I attempted to pass a slower vehicle and had no power to do so. :o
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I've also seen several video test ride reviews on youtube where the SR went into safe mode during their ride. Neither of them seemed to be pushing the bike very hard and they were riding on flat terrain. My Concern in Utah would be the hot dry summers and riding up the canyons. It would be super frustrating not to mention un-nerving to have the power cut out on you like that frequently.
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Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition (https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition)
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Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition (https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition)
You're comparing Zero to Kawasaki? Okay, I'll answer this seriously.
The factors are: scale and maturity.
At scale, you can order parts in larger batches which lowers the overhead. You can also predict a need for those parts over many years and book orders in advance. You have sales figures and trends to back you up with creditors and suppliers.
With maturity, you have less risk that you'll need to completely redesign the machine to satisfy new market needs. Gas bike manufacturers have that, and have standardized on a number of technologies to satisfy those needs. Electric motorcycle manufacturers have maybe two or three models per company that they can support. Zero did waste some time iterating on motorcycle designs per year, but they've gratefully stopped that now and are just building on a platform, but it'll take time.
Anyway, it's not Zero's fault for not delivering all of the nice bits you see on more common motorcycles. There's a reason they're the only electric motorcycle company delivering at under $20k.
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Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition (https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition)
You can also think of it this way, how much does a hand make car or motorbike cost? A lot more than a mass produced one. When Zero gets bigger (and batteries get cheaper) then you will see more and more things on the bike (and better quality as well).
When I was a kid japanese stuff was crap. Bearings, bolts, and quality in general was the worst. 40 years latter they are generally the best.
The lighting is a fantastic bike, but I can't afford one, but I do have my 2015 SR, that I can enjoy now. Not that I would ever want a bike as powerfull as a lightning. I am really happy with the power of my SR. But I don't ride on a hill climb.
Adding a higher performance bike to the line up (at a higher price) might be an idea, but would it get enough sales?
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Anyway, it's not Zero's fault for not delivering all of the nice bits you see on more common motorcycles.
Yup.
Zero built 1300 bikes in 2014, and were expecting (according to this (http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-electric-motorcycle-20150307-story.html#page=1) LA Times quote) to build 1800 this year. By all accounts, that's nice growth, and they're doing well, but they're a tiny company...
Kawasaki sells several 100Ks of bikes per year (if you count ATVs and personal watercraft, which use the same engines, around 600K (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2014/01/30/manufacturers/kawasaki/kawasaki-reports-q3-2013-2014-sales-results/)); not to mention they're part of a large production multinational which gives lots of leverage.
There's a reason they're the only electric motorcycle company delivering at under $20k.
Essentially, the only one actually delivering series production e-motorcycles, at all, at any price (scooters excepted).
All the rest are still in the promises stage, or doing basically 1-off boutique bikes (tho' I expect that Brammo will return to actual sales under Polaris).
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When I read the article in Motorcylce News Monthly about the 2013 S I thought I'd missed the boat! Here was an electric bike that could be taken seriously! That was two an half years ago and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since.
Great comments Brian and grmarks.
To us, the end user, it all seems pretty straightforward. ABS, traction control, sourcing better suspension parts. However, for the people making these things it is difficult. In a fledgling company the average employees will have numerous different responsibilities. Trying to focus on one project is a challenge in itself when you are being pulled in five different directions.
I think people at Zero keep an eye on this forum and it is no doubt a valuable source of feedback for them. There is a natural progression and Zero's bikes will continue to evolve. They need to be congratulated on what they've achieved with the resources they've had.
Whatever Zero do bring to market for 2016 will be a massive achievement for them. I thought I was late to the party but it's only just starting to warm up.
Today's owners are still early adopters and should be saluted. IMHO we'll reach a tipping point within two or three years and the market will explode. It just needs a few more people like myself who are currently standing on the sidelines to jump in. I'm yet to see a Zero on the road in London despite commuting every day.
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+1 wavelet, I was writing my post when you sent yours.
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I read that Zero got (will get) a government grant, not long ago, for R&D. So we may see some new and better stuff on the 2017 model. Like the jump from a DC motor to Zero's own AC motor we have now. Many ppl have talked about an integrated controller/charger and that would make sense as it would save weight as well as being able to deliver faster charging. But who knows what Zero will develop with the money. Just that the bikes should continue to get better.
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To answer this and several other several similar comments, "excusing" Zero for delivering a barebones bike at a premium price because it is a small company: of course that's the case! Will not having a good service network and not including safety features that many comparably priced bikes with similar or better capabilities have help Zero sell more bikes? Of course not... Do I want Zero to go the way of the Vectrix? Nope. But to grow, a manufacturer has to either lower their prices or match others for features (while maintaining quality and good customer service). Right now I think Zero is outside these parameters and as a result only is able to sell to a small number of early adopters willing to pay a premium and take a risk.
So let me rephrase my wish for 2016 (or soon thereafter): add a good traction and stability control, better ABS, remote diagnostics at the customer location + better service.
Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition (https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition)
You're comparing Zero to Kawasaki?
Anyway, it's not Zero's fault for not delivering all of the nice bits you see on more common motorcycles. There's a reason they're the only electric motorcycle company delivering at under $20k.
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My guess is that Zero is not designing their motorcycles for EV enthusiasts and "early adopters", but for the "man on the street". That is where future sales are. EV enthusiasts will buy the bikes just because they don't run on gasoline. But there are a limited number of those people. What Zero wants to do is to attract customers who just want a practical motorcycle that doesn't need gasoline, is easy to maintain and ride. How they decide to do that might not make sense to most of the people that frequent this forum. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in with the 2016 models.
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Does somebody know if the announcement will be streamed?
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I don't know about this year, but I seem to recall that Zero made a video of their presentation at the show and then posted it on YouTube later. I doubt there is going to be any live presentation streaming. ???
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Today's owners are still early adopters and should be saluted. IMHO we'll reach a tipping point within two or three years and the market will explode. It just needs a few more people like myself who are currently standing on the sidelines to jump in. I'm yet to see a Zero on the road in London despite commuting every day.
Not a lot of us on the road... though I swear I saw a Zero near Southam last week (no it was not mine, a 2012 DS probably) a small motocross bike nipped past me on the other side of the road, and there are not many small sized motorcross bikes that make no sound... Headlamp and forks looked really familiar too. I probably should have spun around and chased it down to see if I was right, but that's just, well rude. ;)
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My guess is that Zero is not designing their motorcycles for EV enthusiasts and "early adopters", but for the "man on the street". That is where future sales are. EV enthusiasts will buy the bikes just because they don't run on gasoline. But there are a limited number of those people. What Zero wants to do is to attract customers who just want a practical motorcycle that doesn't need gasoline, is easy to maintain and ride. How they decide to do that might not make sense to most of the people that frequent this forum. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in with the 2016 models.
Do you have any idea how expensive the parts are on the Zero's?. I started to build/convert my own bike to electric. The battery on my bike was 11 kwh and cost $5,000 AUD about 4 years ago (when the Aussie $ was worth more than the US $) but my battery is at least 3 times the size of the Zero and heavier. At the time I could have got a battery that was maybe 2/3's the size for about $30,000. My motor was 15kw peak. My controller was 400 amp, voltage is about the same as the Zero. The bike weighs 250kg.
My SR cost me $25,000 AUD this year, the battery, as I said, is 1/3 the size, and 12.5 kwh (bigger), the bike weight is 188kg and the motor is 50kw.
The battery is on the cutting edge for size and weight and so is the motor and the controller is more powerful. What Zero have achieved is amazing for the price.
It's just not possible to make an electric bike with similar performance to a petrol one for a similar price yet.
But in a few years it will be, and the electric bike will be better, more powerful and more range than a petrol bike. It all comes down to the price of the battery.
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I'm sure people will post articles as soon as they are available. We're a pretty alert group.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Go to the Zero facebook page they may stream something there. I signed up for the news letter so might get an email from that.
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First Post!
I work near Zero Headquarters and I see Zero guys all the time eating at my local places.
I saw a guy that was in the know on 2016, but I forget his title. I started asking him what to expect.
He told me he could not tell me, but he did tell me this:
1. Big changes happened last year, so this year is a update. (This is the second time I have been told by a Zero employee that 2016 will be a tiny launch)
2. No fairings. Those are long to develop.
3. A better, more integrated commuter windscreen for the R & SR is coming as a accessory, but not during the 2016 launch.
My guess is that the engineering team is busy doing custom builds for the police and military. Navy Seal stuff.
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First Post!
I work near Zero Headquarters and I see Zero guys all the time eating at my local places.
I saw a guy that was in the know on 2016, but I forget his title. I started asking him what to expect.
He told me he could not tell me, but he did tell me this:
1. Big changes happened last year, so this year is a update. (This is the second time I have been told by a Zero employee that 2016 will be a tiny launch)
2. No fairings. Those are long to develop.
3. A better, more integrated commuter windscreen for the R & SR is coming as a accessory, but not during the 2016 launch.
My guess is that the engineering team is busy doing custom builds for the police and military. Navy Seal stuff.
I think part of that is the "party line". Summer of 2014, I was told to expect minor updates and slight increase in range. There was more than that when 2015s were announced. One can always hope for more at least. The biggest thing I want before I buy is not additional features, but better reliability and support.
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The strategy of producing a bike that people want to buy, regardless of its powertrain, is a good one. That's what Tesla are doing. They allow people to justify the price premium because of the powertrain and running costs but also because it makes the whole experience better.
Aside from really hard core petrol heads, the average biker will want to buy a Zero in a few years when range, fast charging, dealerships and support are sorted. Rome wasn't built in a day. [emoji4]
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Oh, and the price of oil starts creeping up again...
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My guess is that Zero is not designing their motorcycles for EV enthusiasts and "early adopters", but for the "man on the street". That is where future sales are. EV enthusiasts will buy the bikes just because they don't run on gasoline. But there are a limited number of those people. What Zero wants to do is to attract customers who just want a practical motorcycle that doesn't need gasoline, is easy to maintain and ride. How they decide to do that might not make sense to most of the people that frequent this forum. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in with the 2016 models.
It seems to me that the logic being used here and by many others is that EV motorcycles will only sell in volume when they can match the range and refuel time of an ICE motorcycle (or the price comes down enough to justify the reduced range). Therefore, Zero should focus all resources towards making a bike that can go further on a charge and recharge faster.
While I agree that range and recharge time are important....like....REALLY important....Zero isn't big enough to be the source of major innovation in battery technology...they are really just along for the ride trying to incorporate the best technology available for the times.
In my opinion Zero MUST focus on the "bells and whistles". If the interior of a Tesla Model S looked like a car built in the 80's with analog instrument clusters and basically looked like a nice conversion and didn't have a sleek modern interior, with a large 17in display etc....do you think they would have had even a fraction of the sales??
The question Zero should be asking....at the same price point which will more consumers choose
A BMW or Harley or Yamaha or ?? EV motorcycle with all the bells and whistles you would expect from a top shelf motorcycle that goes 100 highway miles on a charge
Or a Zero SR that is unchanged from 2015 except it goes 130 highway miles on a charge instead of the current 90 highway miles.
At the current price of batteries...you can add a lot of "bells and whistles" for the same price as a 30% bigger battery.
Of course, they don't have to choose between the two....they can continue to offer each model with various sized batteries and they can continue to make a bare bones electric motorcycle for those that want it while still offering a "fully loaded" model for those willing to pay more for the extras.
Personally, my dream bike would be an MV Agusta Turismo Veloce Lusso (http://www.mvagusta.com/en-us/motorcycles/turismo-veloce-lusso-800/) with an electric drive train.
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If you are looking for "bells and whistles" check out the Ego Energica. It has them all. But the price is such that the market is going to be pretty limited, maybe 500 worldwide. Zero could certainly make a really nice electric motorcycle for $40,000, but they are trying for volume and doing what they can to get the prices down so the average guy (and fleet/government agency) can afford them. That means they have to cut costs wherever they can and the cost of "bells and whistles" (such as traction control, computer-controlled suspension, LED lighting, etc.) really start to add up, especially when you are a small volume manufacturer that can not purchase tens of thousands of units from Bosch and the like. I still think Zero is going in the right direction - if their goal is to increase sales in this very limited and immature marketplace.
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If you are looking for "bells and whistles" check out the Ego Energica. It has them all. But the price is such that the market is going to be pretty limited, maybe 500 worldwide. Zero could certainly make a really nice electric motorcycle for $40,000, but they are trying for volume and doing what they can to get the prices down so the average guy (and fleet/government agency) can afford them. That means they have to cut costs wherever they can and the cost of "bells and whistles" (such as traction control, computer-controlled suspension, LED lighting, etc.) really start to add up, especially when you are a small volume manufacturer that can not purchase tens of thousands of units from Bosch and the like. I still think Zero is going in the right direction - if their goal is to increase sales in this very limited and immature marketplace.
I fully agree -- Zero's management energy & power (pun fully intended) should be devoted to the core feature set.
Right now, range at highway speeds is IMHO the most significant, with the closely allied subject of quicker en-route charging.
I've been more recently about the power self-limiter cutting in rather quickly -- maybe that's also a high-priority issue.
I'm really curious to see what the new models will bring... I'll be disappointed (but not surprised) if Killroy's source above (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5055.msg35081#msg35081) ends up being correct, and there are few changes because there were many, engineering-wise, last year; the Intel "tick tock" product cycle (significant product releases alternate with less-risky "small improvement" ones) has been adopted by a lot of manufacturers.
Zero hired many sales & marketing people this year, and might be focusing on sales next year (which requires focusing on post-sale support as well).
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I can't imagine how cancelling indicators would work on a motorcycle?
On my GoldWing, the turn signals cancel when 2 conditions are met. A minimum time (7 seconds?) has elapsed and a minimum distance (700 ft?) has been traveled. I have also heard that there might be a tilt sensor involved, but the 2 condition logic above appears to cover the behavior I notice.
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It is not just the heat differential that matters but also the ability to cool. I don't know about engines, but for people, we lose it is said 25 *times* more heat in water than we do in air with the same temperature. That's why hypothermia occurs very fast (minutes) in cold water where we can survive hours in the same temperature air.
The only way to settle that is by looking at the math formulae for the heat exchange with liquids and gasses and plug-in several heat differential values and the correct heat absorption (heat capacity) values and see if the larger heat differential under normal operating temperatures with air will outweigh the higher heat absorption capacity of the coolant.
I'll give another empirical example of water cooling being a LOT more effective than air cooling, with *exactly* the same temperature differential and exactly the same cooling surfaces in both cases. I make home-made yogurt. The milk is boiled, so 212F. It needs to cool off to about 112F before I add the yogurt starter, which dies in hotter milk and does not work well in colder milk. If I leave the container with hot milk to cool in the air on the porch outside, it takes several hours to cool-off in 40F air. It takes just minutes in 40F tap water to cool off. Now, that might not be fair, because I replace the water that warms-up with colder water from the tap, where on a motorbike I would need to air-cool it with a radiator, and if that radiator is small, it won't be as effective as just getting new cold liquid in the system as I do with the milk. But the point of radiators is not just to get the air cooling exchange in a better place where there is more airflow, but to also have a larger cooling surface than the motor would allow. So they increase the heat exchange 3-ways: more cooling surface, better circulation, higher thermal capacity of the liquid.
And this http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2002/July/1/Airframe-and-Powerplant-%286%29 (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2002/July/1/Airframe-and-Powerplant-%286%29) not to metion thermal excursions and gradients...
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Thanks for posting that link Rick, I found it very interesting indeed!
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Can't wait to see what Zero have for us in the next year!
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If you are looking for "bells and whistles" check out the Ego Energica. It has them all. But the price is such that the market is going to be pretty limited, maybe 500 worldwide. Zero could certainly make a really nice electric motorcycle for $40,000, but they are trying for volume and doing what they can to get the prices down so the average guy (and fleet/government agency) can afford them. That means they have to cut costs wherever they can and the cost of "bells and whistles" (such as traction control, computer-controlled suspension, LED lighting, etc.) really start to add up, especially when you are a small volume manufacturer that can not purchase tens of thousands of units from Bosch and the like. I still think Zero is going in the right direction - if their goal is to increase sales in this very limited and immature marketplace.
I am familiar with Energica. This bike is way over priced at $34K (aside from the fact that they are in an unchallenged market space I don't see anything on the feature set that commands this price) but I like a lot of what they have going for them except for a few things.
1. Needs a more upright riding position with a windscreen to accommodate said riding position.
2. Need to be able to attach lockable hard side cases big enough for full face helmet. For the price they are charging its criminal that they don't have this option....especially since they are keen to call it a "streetbike" and not a "racebike".
3. Only one dealer in USA and its in CA....which is not close to me.
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How long do you think it will be until dealers will get demo bikes and customers will get their bikes.
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From what I've gleaned from following this forum I think it's likely dealers in the U.S. will get them just before Christmas and they'll be more widely available in the New Year.
It's difficult to predict though because demand is likely to be higher than in previous years. Supply might be a problem. Give them six months to deliver to a dealer near you and you shouldn't be disappointed.
Others here may have a better idea. Hopefully Zero will give an indication of availability tomorrow, just like Apple do when they announce their products.
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The 2016 lineup! I see a Zero DSR and it seems that the battery is now 13.6, but that's hard to see.
Also a FX Supermoto
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The pics have been on Autoblog, but now only in the Google cache. I saw a thumbnail of a charge plug in the 'tank'
*link deleted by Skadamo*
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Hey guys, I realize I can't censor the Internet. Domenick accidentally posted these images and wants to make it right. Please don't post links to the pics here. Let's help out a guy who has been busting his a$$ blogging about electric longer than Zero has been a thing.
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Yeah, that's internet, man ;)
I posted all pics already on Facebook where nobody but Facebook can remove these
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FX Sumo from the factory, nice!
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Yeah, that's internet, man ;)
I posted all pics already on Facebook where nobody but Facebook can remove these
Way to stick it to Domenick. *high five*
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Zero's website now has the 2016 bikes listed. Enjoy
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disappointing, no surprises.
Power tank is welcome. 8.9h > 3.4h 100% charged.
DS get R version DSR
FX get street version FXS, alloy wheels. ZF2.8/5.7 > ZF3.3/6.5 (more range, now more than original 2012 S ZF6)
SR changes are
Battery ZF12.5 > ZF13 (slightly more range)
Top speed 85 mph (137 km/h) > 95 mph (153 km/h) via pully 132T / 30T > 130T / 30T
Thats it.
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Where do we start? I was wrong about quick charging, but only half wrong it seems. Rather than writing 3.8 kWh off as only slightly more than you'd expect from a UK domestic socket, I think it warrants some more thought.
Note that the charge tank won't be available for six months. It looks like Electric Cowboy has a better offering. Available now(ish)?
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disappointing, no surprises.
Power tank is welcome. 8.9h > 3.4h 100% charged.
DS get R version DSR
FX get street version FXS, alloy wheels. ZF2.8/5.7 > ZF3.3/6.5 (more range, now more than original 2012 S ZF6)
SR changes are
Battery ZF12.5 > ZF13 (slightly more range)
Top speed 85 mph (137 km/h) > 95 mph (153 km/h) via pully 132T / 30T > 130T / 30T
Thats it.
I'm very disappointed personally (at least as someone who has no interest in supermoto or dual-sport bikes -- I fully realize expanding the model range can inherently bring more customers).
Pretty much none of the things people here were talking about...
Extending the (highway) range by 4mi is so little, I wonder if it's even worth it in term of changing their production line.
Even no change in the bog-slow 1.3kW charging rate...
No reason that couldn't have been doubled, at least for Europe (where standard household sockets are usually 16A, so 3kW appliances are fine on such outlets). Halving the charging time would be very beneficial.
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I expected some more software changes, like enabling traction control and cruise control.
Hardware and electronics is there already.
For promoting modern technology they need to be more like Tesla, push the technology.
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No reason that couldn't have been doubled, at least for Europe (where standard household sockets are usually 16A, so 3kW appliances are fine on such outlets). Halving the charging time would be very beneficial.
Hold that thought, I know that Zero Europe were testing a 3wKh charger this Summer gone. So it is a possibility.
As for disappointment with the announcement? Why?
We'd been informed that the changes for the 2016 models were slight, and we got that.
I really don't think we'll ever see the scale of the 2012>2013 changes for a long while and that's probably for the best.
I'd much rather see incremental changes to the bikes than lots of hyperbole and flashy new tech (which invariably breaks)
I'd say we are seeing Zero mature as a company, and I like it.
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Looks like the 'official' charge tank may not play nicely with the older bikes either. The product page (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=228&zenid=pen9b4n5j49vatso89617i3em3) only references the 2016 models, and accompanying text species 2015 and later.
Pretty incremental improvements all in all. The motard would be a lot of fun. If I was just coming into the Zero world and looking for an urban commuter, it would be my pick. Those removal batteries would be perfect for apartment living (not that it's anything you haven't been able to do with an FX previously - just nice having it in 'off the shelf' form).
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Where do we start? I was wrong about quick charging, but only half wrong it seems. Rather than writing 3.8 kWh off as only slightly more than you'd expect from a UK domestic socket, I think it warrants some more thought.
Note that the charge tank won't be available for six months. It looks like Electric Cowboy has a better offering. Available now(ish)?
I'd be more likely to go for EC's solution at the moment, first it is more powerful, and give you more bang for your buck. Secondly, it does not have to take up the module slot in the tank, which allows for a power tank to still be fitted.
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OK, I just noticed the "Charge Tank" option buried in the specs...
Is this simply DigiNow's charger installed ex-factory, or something else with the same name?
They say it triples the charging rate, which is much lower than the DigiNow (which IIUC, depending on the charge station, delivers at least 6kW, and can handle 10kW);
OTOH it's not compatible with the Power Tank so obviously lives in the same space.
it costs ~$2K as an add-on (they don't say if they delete the standard charger if you order it with a bike).
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OK, I just noticed the "Charge Tank" option buried in the specs...
Is this simply DigiNow's charger installed ex-factory, or something else with the same name?
They say it triples the charging rate, which is much lower than the DigiNow (which IIUC, depending on the charge station, delivers at least 6kW, and can handle 10kW);
OTOH it's not compatible with the Power Tank so obviously lives in the same space.
it costs ~$2K as an add-on (they don't say if they delete the standard charger if you order it with a bike).
Based on the quoted kW charge rate total on the motorcycle features pages, it's equivalent to an Elcon 2500, so 2.5kW added to the onboard 1.3kW. It would not appear to be the same as DigiNow's, and they're clear about retaining the onboard charger on the motorcycle features pages.
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OK, I just noticed the "Charge Tank" option buried in the specs...
Is this simply DigiNow's charger installed ex-factory, or something else with the same name?
They say it triples the charging rate, which is much lower than the DigiNow (which IIUC, depending on the charge station, delivers at least 6kW, and can handle 10kW);
OTOH it's not compatible with the Power Tank so obviously lives in the same space.
it costs ~$2K as an add-on (they don't say if they delete the standard charger if you order it with a bike).
Based on the quoted kW charge rate total on the motorcycle features pages, it's equivalent to an Elcon 2500, so 2.5kW added to the onboard 1.3kW. It would not appear to be the same as DigiNow's, and they're clear about retaining the onboard charger on the motorcycle features pages.
I missed the "Details" panel -- thanks!
I don't know what the DigiNow solution will cost once it's past the initial stage, but the Zero solution doesn't seem very attractive, in terms of price/performance.
Away from home, while on a riding trip, the longest typical stop I can see is 1-1.5 hours (lunch stop or off-bike sightseeing). If Level2 is available, I'd want to make use of the available 6kW+ to charge to 90%-100% SoC in that timeframe for the next segment of the trip.
If this is a longer errands/shopping run starting from home, I'm probably riding at speeds where the range is sufficient as-is, without destination charging.
It sounds like a very partial solution, and losing the Power Tank option for it isn't very attractive.
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You lot are never happy! For years you have been asking for more range and faster charging but when you get it it's a disappointment. Its a shame the bigger charger option couldn't have gone in the belly pan to keep the PT option but at least Zero now match Brammo for performance in charge and discharge.
P.s. Lecram ; maybe consider putting the community before getting a few extra Facebook likes next time?
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12.5 kwh to 13 kwh may not seem much unless you are pushing the bike the last mile home!
They also claim that the motor has better thermal dissipation now, not just gearing as firepower suggested.
With the gearing higher it would normally produce more heat, so something has changed in the motor.
The FXS will give a lower seat height (1.8 inches lower) which is better for commuting/city (squeezing through tight spaces). Its like a third on road option - S, SR & FXS, thats not to bad for prospective buyers.
Off road has DS, DSR & FX.
Had there been a 2015 DSR I might have been temped to buy it over the SR. More options again at the top of the power range.
Looking at it this way it makes a lot of sense, and could result in more sales. After all thats what companies exist for - to make money.
As to not giving ppl what they want, many wanted to be able to ride hard for longer - well you got it.
If you want to ride at 95 mph for extended time - good luck in keeping your license (at least in Australia).
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Right, to me the biggest news is the new Integrated Permanent Magnet motor! This is huge! It means less thermal cutbacks, cooler more efficient running, and more options for performance tuning as it won't necessarily have the same rpm limitations that the non IPM motors did due to glue and band strength. The heart of the bike just got stronger!! This is a pretty intense improvement!
How many complained about thermal cutbacks commuting? You can't ever please everybody, but I'll bet it's mostly smiles from here on!
Plus the FXS? much more range (from 70 miles range last year to 90 miles this year!!!) and this bike will be a beast to ride around town! 3.8 sec 0-60 and less than 300 pounds? For people with less than a 40 mile commute to work, this might be the absolute ideal vehicle to make you as happy as you can be each morning and evening.
I like seeing another battery improvement a year after seeing a big jump. 5% per year is better than Tesla has been doing. In 4 years they went from 85 kWh to 90. Zero went from 4.1 kWh to 15.9. I'd say Zero is killing it compared to everyone else out there!
My 2015 Zero does everything I could want. The 2016 is even better! I don't see why this wouldn't suit almost everyone's daily riding needs by a huge margin!
Want to road trip? Get either of the new charge tanks. If you get the bigger DigiNow one, then the Zero can be your only vehicle as you can go anywhere with it.
I'd be surprised if I see anyone who buys a 2016 complaining about anything, just constant smiles! The bikes getting quite refined, and you can do things on Zero's you can't do on any other motorcycle. I know I love the technology so some might think I'm biased, but if I could choose any vehicle on the planet to ride, it would be my Zero just as it is. I love it! Well I would want to be able to accelerate 0-100 in under 2 seconds, but then again no factory vehicle can do that, and that's probably not a normal want so I'm just a little different I guess. Now with ABS from last year, it's pretty perfect as it is for everything I do.
Considering the Nissan LEAF didn't change almost a single thing in 6 years, I think it's quite impressive that Zero changes things each year. Remember the Brammo Empulse we heard about in early 2010? Polaris/Victory is now selling it and it also is almost exactly the same as we saw it 6 years ago too. Zero Motorcycles does a pretty awesome job!
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I expected some more software changes, like enabling traction control and cruise control.
Hardware and electronics is there already.
For promoting modern technology they need to be more like Tesla, push the technology.
I'm aware that Zero have attempted to get traction control working but it simply is not supported by the Sevcon controllers at this time.
Major motorcycle manufacturers have spent tens of millions implementing traction control, wheelie control, slide control etc in their top end bikes. When you're only selling 2,000 bikes each year there's a much smaller pot of money to invest in R&D.
Zero have chosen a path in 2016 to increase volume through more models and are trying to keep costs down (on what are already expensive motorcycles) by maximising reuse across models. If you want hi-end features on an electric motorcycle then you'll need to compromise on price i.e. go down the Energica or Lightning Motorcycles path.
Having said that, if Zero's adoption of ABS is anything to go by, they will include these advanced features in their bikes but I'd suggest they want to buy them in at a reasonable cost rather than having to do all the R&D themselves.
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Which is entirely the correct way to do it.
And to be honest, if I had to choose between a 5% increase in battery size each year, and whistles and bells like Traction Control... Then I'd pick the battery improvement every single time.
That they have improved the battery size AND kept the cost the same, is really good news. It shows Zero are passing the cost savings in battery tech along to us the customers, just like they promised they would years ago, again excellent news.
Personally I'm stoked about the 2016 bikes, and I forsee my 2013 will be traded in for one some point in the coming year. ;D
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I missed the detail of the updated motor, that is good news, as long as they calibrate the sensors too ;)
maybe we have been too spoilt by the increases in previous years. As long as they keep improving and making a better product for same price Im happy.
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I just don't get the stubborn lack of fairings... :o
It just seems like such a no brainer - increase range (especially highway which is needed most) and improved weather protection with minimal design and manufacturing costs and only a minute increase in weight.
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Could they have at least offered some new colors?? Like maybe a black option for the SR? I know you can order plastic for an S and put it on the SR but it sucks that you have to pay extra just to change the color.
Any thoughts on placement of the J1772 charge connector on the tank itself? Would this be more or less convenient than to have the connector next to the motor or even at the tail? If Zero would sell the tank without the charger you could buy the DigiNow charger and might be able to use the Zero tank to get the connector at the tank. My initial thoughts are that clearance under the tank might prevent this from being possible. Any thoughts on doing this?
For anyone thats read through this thread its no secret that I would have liked to see more changes but I knew my desires were mostly long shots.....but they could have made a lot more minor changes....for example....all LED lighting....cruise control....reverse....parking brake...just to name a few.
The changes to the motor definitely cannot be overlooked...more efficient....faster cooling...increased thermal capacity. I look forward to finding out how it performs in the real world. Sounds like its begging for a bigger controller....for those that are into that kind of thing ;)
I don't have a car so my Zero is my only mode of personal transportation. Therefore, I need to have heated seat, heated grips, wind protection, top box....these are critical when the weather is rough and you need to get groceries or get to work....but I have a short commute (25 miles round trip) so if I was just looking for something to commute with when the weather is nice the FXS looks like it would be a great option. Theoretically you could add the top box and you could come up with solutions for heated accessories and wind protection for the FXS but to me that kind of seems to defeat the point of having a super quick and super light bike that you can flick around.
Random thought....FXS doesn't exactly roll of the tongue does it? Haha
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Anyone think the 2015 will get a further price drop?
From the website I'm calculating both the 15 and 16 S with a powertank at $16669
Any of your more expert people got an opinion on this?
I'm trading in my 2012 S 9kwh
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Anyone think the 2015 will get a further price drop?
My guess would be; Not in the near future.
My reasoning? We all are aware that batteries are steadily getting cheaper. Zero upped the battery capacity without increasing the price, so they've likely passed on the falling cost of batteries by increasing capacity. This is something that I believe Luke said they would do when and as the opportunity arose (their other longer game plan seems to be to start reducing overall weight and battery footprint when the bikes pack hits a certain unknown capacity). So unless there is another drop in battery costs in the next 6-8 months, then I think we are looking at the actual price of the Zero for the year.
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Looks like the base price of the 2016 S and DS are $1000 cheaper than the 2015, but the additional capacity battery is $1000 more to go from 9.4->13.0 than it is to go from 8.4->12.5. Seems like a kind of odd pricing structure change.
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I imagine re-designing the motor is no small R&D item. Also all the batteries are bigger. So there has been plenty of work going on for the 2016 bike. With that behind them maybe for 2017 they will work on a fairing. I can understand the prioritising.
Getting the core of the bike right is the highest priority.
Great work Zero!
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Looks like the base price of the 2016 S and DS are $1000 cheaper than the 2015, but the additional capacity battery is $1000 more to go from 9.4->13.0 than it is to go from 8.4->12.5. Seems like a kind of odd pricing structure change.
They probably use cheaper battery tech in the small size - plenty of room. The top size would have to be cutting edge battery tech and that would be expensive.
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Right, to me the biggest news is the new Integrated Permanent Magnet motor! This is huge! It means less thermal cutbacks, cooler more efficient running, and more options for performance tuning as it won't necessarily have the same rpm limitations that the non IPM motors did due to glue and band strength. The heart of the bike just got stronger!! This is a pretty intense improvement!
How many complained about thermal cutbacks commuting? You can't ever please everybody, but I'll bet it's mostly smiles from here on!
Zero is shipping 5 motors now:
- 75-5 PM (FX), 70 mph sustained speed
- 75-5 IPM (FXS), 75 mph sustained speed
- 75-7 PM (S/DS ZF9.8), 80 mph sustained speed
- 75-7 IPM (S/DS ZF13.0), 85 mph sustained speed
- 75-7R IPM (SR/DSR), 95 mph sustained speed
The PM motor sustained speeds are the same as last year (FX, S/DS). The S/DS ZF13 75-7 have the same sustained top speed as the 2014-2015 SR 75-7R!
The motors claim to have better thermal dissipating capabilities now, but the new IPM motor is also about 3% more efficient (making up numbers, but perhaps 90 -> 91% efficient). Since the motors were already quite efficient, small improvements in efficiency can cut heat production significantly (by 10% in my made up numbers).
Plus the FXS? much more range (from 70 miles range last year to 90 miles this year!!!) and this bike will be a beast to ride around town! 3.8 sec 0-60 and less than 300 pounds? For people with less than a 40 mile commute to work, this might be the absolute ideal vehicle to make you as happy as you can be each morning and evening.
I like seeing another battery improvement a year after seeing a big jump. 5% per year is better than Tesla has been doing. In 4 years they went from 85 kWh to 90. Zero went from 4.1 kWh to 15.9. I'd say Zero is killing it compared to everyone else out there!
Last year Zero upgraded from 24.5 Ah Farasis cells to 27 Ah. It seems like they've upgraded again to 28 Ah cells this year, *and* the cells are slightly denser and produce more power! Last year Zero continued to use the 24.5 Ah cells in the FX to retain 20 kW with a single module. This year they've upgraded the FX range, still produces 20 kW with a single module, at no price increase.
Want to road trip? Get either of the new charge tanks. If you get the bigger DigiNow one, then the Zero can be your only vehicle as you can go anywhere with it.
"Can go anywhere" isn't quite the same thing as "convenient to go anywhere". Where there's a will there's a way, of course, but I don't know that even the DigiNow tank will sway anyone not already looking.
Without a fairing, the 2016 Zero S ZF13 + Power Tank has 98 miles of highway range. That's great, it's a huge improvement over a few years ago.
The official Zero Charge Tank helps, adds the ability to destination charge like the Empulse at 35 miles (combined riding) charged per hour. Similar to and slightly faster than the Victory Empulse TT, at about 28 miles (combined) charged per hour.
That's great, it means that trips like a movie or meal or hiking or playing in a park can add significant range. It also means the bike doesn't take 10+ hours to do a full charge overnight, for extreme commuters!
The DigiNow tank is even better. At 8-9 kW continuous power, it can charge the ZF13 bike about 80% in an hour, or 86 miles per hour (~64 highway miles per hour). That's not CHAdeMO levels of fast - a Nissan LEAF can add 60 highway miles in 30 minutes - but it's a higher charge rate than even the dual charger Model S.
My personal target is Nashville to Atlanta (~230 miles, all interstate) with about an hour of combined charging.
Tesla can do it with the Model S (0 to 20 minutes at the Chattanooga Supercharger). Model 3 should be able to do the trip with a short stop.
Nissan can barely do it with their new 30 kWh LEAF (60-80 minutes stopped over 3 QC sessions).
Even with the DigiNow externally mounted and a 2016 S ZF13 + Power Tank, the bike will require about 150 minutes of charging .. slightly more if only a single 32 amp EVSE is available. Still hugely impressive considering onboard charging only ..
Considering the Nissan LEAF didn't change almost a single thing in 6 years, I think it's quite impressive that Zero changes things each year. Remember the Brammo Empulse we heard about in early 2010? Polaris/Victory is now selling it and it also is almost exactly the same as we saw it 6 years ago too. Zero Motorcycles does a pretty awesome job!
2016 Nissan LEAF SV/SL have about 25% more battery capacity than 2012 LEAF, at around the same cost. Not a bad upgrade IMO.
2016 Zero S has 44% more battery capacity than the 2012 ZF9, at the same cost! Plus double the power, improved top speed, better equipment, almost twice the highway range ..
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So then they are the same price... makes my choice easy. I didn't know if the price on the website for 2015's reflected the recent price drop of approximately $1500 announced a few months ago.
Thanks all.
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Here are some press articles:
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2016-zero-motorcycles-model-lineup-first-look.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2016-zero-motorcycles-model-lineup-first-look.html)
http://insideevs.com/zero-announces-2016-motorcycle-line-new-models-more-range-faster-charging-wvideo/ (http://insideevs.com/zero-announces-2016-motorcycle-line-new-models-more-range-faster-charging-wvideo/)
If anyone has specific questions I can answer them as I have a copy of the "press kit". It includes prices, specifications of all of the models and descriptions of all of the new features. Apparently there will be only one color offered for each Zero model. Black will be featured in at least one of their models, plus the FX, P and MMX versions. Also the power train components will be sold over the counter to customers who plan to use them to build custom electric vehicles. Prices range from a low of $8,495 for the ZF3.3 FX model to $18,669 for the ZF13.0 SR with the Power Tank installed. The 13.0 SR with a Charge Tank will set you back $17,983 add all of the usual fees, taxes, shipping and dealer set-up charges to those figures to get out-the-door prices. :o
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So then they are the same price... makes my choice easy. I didn't know if the price on the website for 2015's reflected the recent price drop of approximately $1500 announced a few months ago.
Thanks all.
It did. The 2015 ZF12.5 bikes were introduced at the price of $15345 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/press-releases/sept-30-2014-2015-model-line.php), dropped to $13995 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/press-releases/may-20-2015-msrp.php) in May.
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Why make 5 different motors? That sounds like a headache. The only reason I can think of is that the IPM motors are considerably more expensive than the old version. Or they have a ton of old motors in stock.
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I gather that the IPM motors require special computer programming to operate (relative to the previous designs) and that is why they are not retrofitable to previous models. Making different and more expensive option motors could be a marketing thing like most European motorcycle manufacturers do with their bikes. (BMW comes to mind. When I updated the software on my BMW RS it cost $350 for the just the program download.) Or it (most likely) is that the smaller motors are less expensive to manufacture and Zero is just trying to cut the cost to the consumer as much as possible when they purchase models that really don't require a bigger motor. As an example:L the way I ride a bigger, more powerful and heat-proof motor would be useless to me - which is not to say that I still wouldn't like to ride a bike with one. ;)
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Here is another article about the new 2016 Zero models:
https://rideapart.com/articles/zero-motorcycles-introduces-fully-electric-supermoto-2016-fxs
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More news coverage of the 2016 Zero Motorcycles lineup:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100479_2016-zero-electric-motorcycles-2-new-bikes-faster-charging-new-motor-design (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100479_2016-zero-electric-motorcycles-2-new-bikes-faster-charging-new-motor-design)
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If Zero is selling powertrain components separately for EV builders, I'd be very interested to see the pricing on those.
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I had hoped for more but a few pretty cool new things. If the overheating issue is truly gone the SR and the FX and FXS should be some really fun bikes now. Would love to know how that FXS does in the supermoto tracks. Was hoping for 3kw charging standard but at least its an option. I hope they get the SR up into the sport bike range of 150mph but small strong steps are better than falling on your face. I'll ride a few when they hit the dealers and make up my mind then.
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Small improvements but it's OK. Battery tech improvements is really exciting ! Like it was a few decades ago with computers ! Prices in Canada, OUCH!!!
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I wonder if the new 3.3 battery can be installed in older 2014 & 2015 FX, or is it exclusive for the 2016 FX model?
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I just don't get the stubborn lack of fairings... :o
It just seems like such a no brainer - increase range (especially highway which is needed most) and improved weather protection with minimal design and manufacturing costs and only a minute increase in weight.
I'm not sure it's minimal design work... Since one of the major goals if not the major goals would be to seriously increase range, this would require a huge amount of computer simulation, and I'm pretty sure, a lot of iterative work in an actual wind tunnel.
On most ICE bikes, the purpose of fairings is more oriented towards wind protection & aesthetics, so I suspect the actual engineering/design is a lot less work.
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Here is my write up on the 2016 model range and improvements. I think I got most of the details in there, plus a ton of videos.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/15/zero-motorcycles-expands-lineup-2016-video/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/15/zero-motorcycles-expands-lineup-2016-video/)
In case you want to see the videos without the soundtrack, they are on Zero's YouTube page.
https://www.youtube.com/user/zeromotorcycles/ (https://www.youtube.com/user/zeromotorcycles/)
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I wonder if the new 3.3 battery can be installed in older 2014 & 2015 FX, or is it exclusive for the 2016 FX model?
Yes, the 3.3kWh battery can be used with 2014+ bikes. The 2013 FX has different connectors.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100479_2016-zero-electric-motorcycles-2-new-bikes-faster-charging-new-motor-design/page-2 (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100479_2016-zero-electric-motorcycles-2-new-bikes-faster-charging-new-motor-design/page-2)
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And for lovers of LED lights, the new Zeros will have an LED tail light bulb. No LED headlight though. Those things are really expensive (relative to an off-the-shelf halogen bulb). ;)
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Does anyone know if you can disable the ABS on the DS?
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And for lovers of LED lights, the new Zeros will have an LED tail light bulb. No LED headlight though. Those things are really expensive (relative to an off-the-shelf halogen bulb). ;)
I thought Zeros have had LED tail lights since 2013.
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I can't figure out how Zero was able to change the gearing on the Zero SR from 2015 to 2016 and yet the 0-60 time and top speed didn't change. The new IPM motor puts out the same torque, weight stayed the same at 414lbs, and same motor controller.
The reduction in the number of teeth on the rear sprocket from 132T to 130T should result in higher speed but lower torque at the wheel.
Zero could limit the motor to a lower rpm in 2016 to keep the top speed the same.
So why didn't the 0-60 time for 2016 change? Shouldn't the 0-60 time for the 2016 Zero SR be slower? What am I missing? Is it just programming in the motor controller?
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Apparently there will be only one color offered for each Zero model. Black will be featured in at least one of their models, plus the FX, P and MMX versions.
I don't understand Zero's color options. Now you can only get Zero S in yellow? And DS in orange?
So black and red are only reserved for those that can afford to pay the SR/DSR premium?
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Count me as thrilled.
Level 2 Charging that is very likely to work.
DSR I did not expect that.
As a first time buyer I was happy with Level 1 charging.
It was a good "enabler" for the EV experience.
Even testing the 2015 SR I had no pangs of regret about entering the market with a 2013 S.
I was torn between S and DS and now with "DSR" there is something new I really, really crave.
I bought an $275 annual parking pass at a ramp near my work that had two FREE chargers.
Midsummer the once free charging stations now charge by time and not power, using Level 1 was not as fun anymore.
I've grown envious of Level 2 charging.
Heading into the market for a 2nd bike... I had considered 2013 and newer in near equal stead.
Now I don't. 2016 DSR... wow.
Thrilled.
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When I bought my 2015 SR last month I knew there could be a risk of it becoming obsolete soon. However, I researched them enough to know what I was getting and that I would be satisfied. Have 1,000 miles now with no heating issues. Home charging has worked well though I have some questions I might use to start a new thread. Can't see spending another $2,000+ for either the J1772 or Power Tank. Zero Electrics "are what they are" and I wouldn't tour on one even if it could run 400 miles on a charge. That's what my '86 Cavalcade, which I have owned for 27 years, is for. Anyone considering a Zero may as well see your dealer and try for a 2015 year-end discount. The 2016 upgrades are a natural evolution but not worthy of passing up a deal on a 2015 if your dealer will give you one.
George in San Diego
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Hey George, good to see another SR rider in San Diego! You're the third that I'm aware of.
If you're in east county, you could come and join us on our weekly ride: http://www.meetup.com/sandiegosportbikemeetupgroup/events/225381085/?gj=wc1d.2_e&rv=wc1d.2_e&_af=event&_af_eid=225381085 (http://www.meetup.com/sandiegosportbikemeetupgroup/events/225381085/?gj=wc1d.2_e&rv=wc1d.2_e&_af=event&_af_eid=225381085)
I only do the first leg of the ride due to range constraints but it's a good group of people and a nice mellow ride to start the weekend.
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Yes Doug, I noticed your mention of San Diego which led me to do the same. I am in Spring Valley. This Saturday won't work but I will try for the 24th. I assume you bought at Rocket's? I watched the streets for a year and never saw a Zero but went for it anyway. I'm on mine every day so it's getting "air time."
George in San Diego
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When I bought my 2015 SR last month I knew there could be a risk of it becoming obsolete soon. However, I researched them enough to know what I was getting and that I would be satisfied. Have 1,000 miles now with no heating issues. Home charging has worked well though I have some questions I might use to start a new thread. Can't see spending another $2,000+ for either the J1772 or Power Tank. Zero Electrics "are what they are" and I wouldn't tour on one even if it could run 400 miles on a charge. That's what my '86 Cavalcade, which I have owned for 27 years, is for. Anyone considering a Zero may as well see your dealer and try for a 2015 year-end discount. The 2016 upgrades are a natural evolution but not worthy of passing up a deal on a 2015 if your dealer will give you one.
George in San Diego
The fact that Zero is currently manufacturing the 2016 bikes leads me to think that the 2015 models are starting to become scarce at dealerships.
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I am excited with the new options from zero and I think they are taking the correct steps forward. I would have liked to see a larger battery improvement. While the charge tank with the j1772 connector is nice it would have been even nicer to see this as an integrated charger and keeping the storage the bike already had. Also it is nice that they redesigned the motor to make it more efficient and less likely to overheat but I would have liked to see at least a small bump in power and/or torque. I had thought about upgrading this year but will hold off because while the improvements are nice they are not enough for me.
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Richard: I don't know about the rest of the world but when I read of the great production run for 15 and never see any bikes anywhere, I have to wonder where they are. If you look at the Honda website you'll see special offers on unsold bikes going back to 2012. Wouldn't that mean there is unsold stock from prior years? My dealer never did stock any other than demonstrators (DS and SR) and I bought the SR demo. I'm sure I could have ordered a fresh one.
Xmj... More power? Really? Have you ever ridden one of these little bullets? I need to hang on pretty tight as it is. Hehe
George in San Diego
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I have a 2012 S and 2013 DS. The DSR is what I've been waiting for so I will buy one as soon as they come out. Also I'm in San Diego and commute every day on one of my Zeros. The only problem is which old one to get rid of. The 2012 S with 2015 SR tires and under 300 lbs is a nimble sticky beast but the 2013 DS with Pilot 4 road trails is a smooth commuter.
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Richard: I don't know about the rest of the world but when I read of the great production run for 15 and never see any bikes anywhere, I have to wonder where they are. If you look at the Honda website you'll see special offers on unsold bikes going back to 2012. Wouldn't that mean there is unsold stock from prior years?
George in San Diego
From what I understand, Zero has focused their sales on fleet customers. Some of which are not in the US. That is how they get the numbers they need.
Since they make a limited number of bikes, once the model year is over they are all gone. You can find a few on Cycletrader.com.
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Thanks for posting that link Rick, I found it very interesting indeed!
I found it very interesting as well... as a big Rutan fan!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyRGNcbeS7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyRGNcbeS7o)
[Voyager takeoff]
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Then I made a good decision buying when I did.
George in San Diego
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Just noticed only the ZF13 models and FXS get the new interior permanent magnet (IPM) motor.
that may explain the $1000 price rise the smaller ZF9.8 is using old motor stock.
I hope Zero do a Video about the interior permanent magnet (IPM) motor.
would like to see more info and how it differs from the permanent magnet (PM) motor.
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Just noticed only the ZF13 models and FXS get the new interior permanent magnet (IPM) motor.
Hmm. That makes me wonder if "IPM" is just jargon for the higher-temperature construction techniques they created for the SR. Maybe it's the same technology, now filtering down.
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Just noticed only the ZF13 models and FXS get the new interior permanent magnet (IPM) motor.
Hmm. That makes me wonder if "IPM" is just jargon for the higher-temperature construction techniques they created for the SR. Maybe it's the same technology, now filtering down.
Zero apparently has three IPM motors: the 75-5 IPM, the 75-7 IPM and the 75-7R IPM. The other motors are called the 75-5 and 75-7. So apparently some of their bikes come with the older design motor, some with the IPM motor and the SR models appear to use an IPM "R" motor with the heat-resistant magnets. My understanding is that the IPM motor design is different than the older Z-Force motors and requires different controller programming to operate.
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I assume the old motors are SPM (because of reference on glue) and new motor is IPM. IPM have power and efficiency advantages and can explain why changing the gearing did not slow the 0-60 times. If you want the full boring details:
http://www.academia.edu/3043966/Comparison_of_Induction_and_PM_Synchronous_motor_drives_for_EV_application_including_design_examples (http://www.academia.edu/3043966/Comparison_of_Induction_and_PM_Synchronous_motor_drives_for_EV_application_including_design_examples)
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ09Tsmr8es (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ09Tsmr8es)
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I'm charging my 2015 at 4 kW using the three Delta-Q Quic chargers in addition to the onboard charger. It's a bit of a hassle bringing the chargers with me (on long rides only), but it's nice to be able to charge quickly at J1772 stations or RV parks (you can use a total of 4 off-board chargers for a total of 5 kW if you want). The convenience of the built-in 'ChargeTank' is elegant, but I also like the longer range that the 'PowerTank' offers.
So, I don't regret not waiting for the 2016 - I'm still very happy with my 2015 SR.
The only thing that I'm really jealous of is the new sustained top speed. I do see the thermal warning light come on quite often forcing me to slow down until the motor cools down.
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I can't figure out how Zero was able to change the gearing on the Zero SR from 2015 to 2016 and yet the 0-60 time and top speed didn't change. The new IPM motor puts out the same torque, weight stayed the same at 414lbs, and same motor controller.
The reduction in the number of teeth on the rear sprocket from 132T to 130T should result in higher speed but lower torque at the wheel.
Zero could limit the motor to a lower rpm in 2016 to keep the top speed the same.
So why didn't the 0-60 time for 2016 change? Shouldn't the 0-60 time for the 2016 Zero SR be slower? What am I missing? Is it just programming in the motor controller?
Though I can't say for sure, the 0-to-60 time might have stayed the same because of the increased power ability of the new cells. It's not been reported because it's not hugely relevant to most user's experience, but besides having more energy capacity, the new battery cells also have more power output capability, or, in more technical terms, a higher C rating.
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...the new battery cells also have more power output capability, or, in more technical terms, a higher C rating.
Generally speaking, the C rating of a cell is used to refer to the speed with which it can be charged, not discharged. I do believe you're correct that the new cells are rated for higher discharge rate, but aren't they still using the same Sevcon Size 6 controller that's limited to 660 amps anyhow? Higher discharge capability from the battery pack wouldn't help unless they've upgraded the controller too.
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If they were using the size 6 to 100% of its potential....
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If they were using the size 6 to 100% of its potential....
I think they probably are at higher speeds? Just a lower ramp/multiplication at low speeds to avoid people hurting themselves.
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gborgan, yes, I own a 2015 SR. It's quick but not compared to a liter bike. I am not saying it's slow by any means, my point is if you are going to redesign the motor then add a little more power and torque. It should be progressive just like any motorcycle. Year by year they increase power. I'm not sure why that seems like such a ridiculous request. Another thing we don't think much about is how high the bike has to be geared to get a 0-60 time of 3.3 seconds. That's all well and good but this bike can't complete a quarter mile with out being topped out long before the end. Why not bump up the hp and tq, gear it a little lower, get the same 0-60 times but hit 125mph now. The bike is awesome for what it is but not mainstream enough for most people.
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I agree 125 or 150 at least on your top of line R bike. The bikes aren't going cross country ( ok for most of us not iron butted) so they need to be really fun or very practical. The S and DS cover the practical side while the FX and the SR need to be wild rides even for liter bike riders and two stroke jumpers. I want this company to succeed more than any product I have bought in years so it may be time to branch off an outside the box team and let em rip. I don't know how many Egos or Lightnings have been sold but I would say single digits. Now put Zero's dealers and customer service behind a bike with those kind of stats and you can sale them at $35k to the market that can go that route no problem. Bragging rights are a petty thing but they sale product just ask any Super bowl champion team.
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I'm sure Zero has a plan to bring more power to the lineup. This motor is a step in that direction, but ultimately the controller is what determines the power you get. Probably waiting on sevcon to deliver a higher power controller (in a low voltage package) or rolling their own into production. Great to see Zero make upgrades in so many diverse aspects of the bike. Good on them
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Why not bump up the hp and tq, gear it a little lower, get the same 0-60 times but hit 125mph now. The bike is awesome for what it is but not mainstream enough for most people.
A higher gear you mean. High gears give more speed.
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I agree 125 or 150 at least on your top of line R bike. The bikes aren't going cross country ( ok for most of us not iron butted) so they need to be really fun or very practical. The S and DS cover the practical side while the FX and the SR need to be wild rides even for liter bike riders and two stroke jumpers. I want this company to succeed more than any product I have bought in years so it may be time to branch off an outside the box team and let em rip.
The whole company is an outside-the-box team... The entire EV motorcycle market (as opposed to the electric scooter market) is still at that phase. Recall how many employees they have, and that despite being considered a big success, Zero will still sell <2000 bikes this year. If you want them to succeed in the near future, the only way to to sell a lot more of what they have now, not significantly increasing price.
Once they're selling 30K-40K bikes a year, different story.
Concentrating on incremental improvements and selling to fleets may not be sexy, but will allow them to sell.
I don't know how many Egos or Lightnings have been sold but I would say single digits. Now put Zero's dealers and customer service behind a bike with those kind of stats and you can sale them at $35k to the market that can go that route no problem.
And that's exactly how large this market is... Single digits. If that's all Ego / Lightning will manage to sell, neither company will survive (let alone thrive) a year or two from now. Think of what happened to Mission and other would-be companies in this space. Even Brammo.
And 150mph e-motorcycles would require a lot of expensive windtunnel work, because wind resistance absolutely kills range. It's not an coincidence that even $100K Teslas have an electronic speed limit of 155mph, when according to various calculations they could probably do 205-210mph.
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I don't want them to stop making their bread and butter bikes. Now my understanding is Egos come from a much larger Italian high performance company so money isn't a problem for them.
Lightning has glitches that stop the bike on video test rides. I like some of Lightning's patents and would like to see Zero acquire them and put their tech team on patching some holes. You get the fairings already to go the oil cooled motor casing that supports weight as part of the frame. There are a lot of sport bike owners that drop big money when they first buy and on and on as they keep it running. As a company you want that money and the customers that don't care what they spend they just want the "best".
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...the new battery cells also have more power output capability, or, in more technical terms, a higher C rating.
Generally speaking, the C rating of a cell is used to refer to the speed with which it can be charged, not discharged.
C rate is a metric equally relevant to both charge and discharge.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_is_the_c_rate (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_is_the_c_rate)
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Which is entirely the correct way to do it.
And to be honest, if I had to choose between a 5% increase in battery size each year, and whistles and bells like Traction Control... Then I'd pick the battery improvement every single time.
That they have improved the battery size AND kept the cost the same, is really good news. It shows Zero are passing the cost savings in battery tech along to us the customers, just like they promised they would years ago, again excellent news.
Personally I'm stoked about the 2016 bikes, and I forsee my 2013 will be traded in for one some point in the coming year. ;D
I'm with Justin here, despite wanting to see Traction Control. I'm sure it will come eventually. In the meantime we just need to remember to treat these bikes with the respect they deserve. I learnt the hard way...
It's easy to get distracted by a wish list of features when the price point is probably the most critical consideration for Zero. It's why getting a subsidy here in the UK would make such a big difference.
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I got back yesterday from an Orlando mini-vacation, most of which was spent at the show. I thought it was excellent - tons of custom and production bikes, hot babes, and dozens of OEM & aftermarket suppliers with knowledgeable reps ready and willing to discuss their products - or nearly anything MC-related - in depth. The first two industry-only days were the best for one-on-one vendor discussions, as the weekend was pretty busy - but it never got mobbed, it was always easy to move around. The Orlando convention center is way huge, it's definitely the largest building I've ever been inside.
Harley and KTM weren't there, but Zero was out in force. They had a killer location near the center of the floor, and interest was high every time I passed by. The presentation Scot Harden made on Thursday was media-only, but I was able to watch it through the clear divider and thought it was quite good. I finally got to meet Harlan (and talk his ear off) and learned a ton of Zero-related stuff I'd been curious about for months. I asked Jason? at Zero about one thing I thought I might have been imagining; that my FX never seemed quite as fast after it overheated the first (and only) time. His reply was "there may well be something to that", which I wasn't expecting. I wonder if this might've been one of the reasons for the switch to the IPM configuration. The '16 FX has taller bars and a cool brake pedal with a more aggressive (and replaceable) foot, in case that's of interest to the dirt guys.
I got to ride an FX, SR and Yamaha R6 on the streets surrounding the convention center, plus a Suzuki quad on the dirt track (all were 2015 models). I had no experience with rearsets and had only ridden electrics for over a year, so the first mile on the R6 wasn't pretty. :) Riding in tight formation with 6-10 other bikes at reduced speeds isn't exactly the best way to get the feel of a new bike, but it was much better than nothing. One guy went down hard on a Zero DS right in front of me - bike and rider were a little banged up, but OK.
Pretty much everyone I spoke with had at least some familiarity with - and interest in - electric bikes. All asked about range; I started with my worst-case '14 2.8 FX figure of 35 miles (which is also Zero's spec, and one I can usually achieve on either street or dirt), then added in the multiplication factors of the various '15-'16 models as best I remembered them. Most seemed surprised that the mileage was so high on the 13.0 and Power Tank models.
Zero was the only electric MC brand at the show AFAIK. The Big Four guys had no news about upcoming electrics, and no one I spoke to at Yamaha had ever heard of the PES2 or PED2 bikes which supposedly ship next year.
Ray
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I got back yesterday from an Orlando mini-vacation, most of which was spent at the show. I thought it was excellent - tons of custom and production bikes, hot babes, and dozens of OEM & aftermarket suppliers with knowledgeable reps ready and willing to discuss their products - or nearly anything MC-related - in depth. The first two industry-only days were the best for one-on-one vendor discussions, as the weekend was pretty busy - but it never got mobbed, it was always easy to move around. The Orlando convention center is way huge, it's definitely the largest building I've ever been inside.
Harley and KTM weren't there, but Zero was out in force. They had a killer location near the center of the floor, and interest was high every time I passed by. The presentation Scot Harden made on Thursday was media-only, but I was able to watch it through the clear divider and thought it was quite good. I finally got to meet Harlan (and talk his ear off) and learned a ton of Zero-related stuff I'd been curious about for months. I asked Jason? at Zero about one thing I thought I might have been imagining; that my FX never seemed quite as fast after it overheated the first (and only) time. His reply was "there may well be something to that", which I wasn't expecting. I wonder if this might've been one of the reasons for the switch to the IPM configuration. The '16 FX has taller bars and a cool brake pedal with a more aggressive (and replaceable) foot, in case that's of interest to the dirt guys.
I got to ride an FX, SR and Yamaha R6 on the streets surrounding the convention center, plus a Suzuki quad on the dirt track (all were 2015 models). I had no experience with rearsets and had only ridden electrics for over a year, so the first mile on the R6 wasn't pretty. :) Riding in tight formation with 6-10 other bikes at reduced speeds isn't exactly the best way to get the feel of a new bike, but it was much better than nothing. One guy went down hard on a Zero DS right in front of me - bike and rider were a little banged up, but OK.
Pretty much everyone I spoke with had at least some familiarity with - and interest in - electric bikes. All asked about range; I started with my worst-case '14 2.8 FX figure of 35 miles (which is also Zero's spec, and one I can usually achieve on either street or dirt), then added in the multiplication factors of the various '15-'16 models as best I remembered them. Most seemed surprised that the mileage was so high on the 13.0 and Power Tank models.
Zero was the only electric MC brand at the show AFAIK. The Big Four guys had no news about upcoming electrics, and no one I spoke to at Yamaha had ever heard of the PES2 or PED2 bikes which supposedly ship next year.
Ray
I was considering making a trip to Orlando to test ride the new bikes. Now that I find out the demos were 2015 models I'm glad I didn't. Although, it still might have been cool to talk to the Zero reps about electric bikes. And it also would be cool to see the new bikes in person to see if there are any subtle differences with past models that hasn't been discussed in the Media releases. I guess I'll have to wait until they show up at dealers.
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I was considering making a trip to Orlando to test ride the new bikes. Now that I find out the demos were 2015 models I'm glad I didn't.
Yes - I think many of us here would've felt the same (I was disappointed too). It didn't seem to matter to the folks that turned out to test-ride Zeros, though - nearly all had never ridden an electric bike, and for them a '15 was as good as a '16. I believe the Big Four demo bikes were all '15's as well.
Ray