ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Home Brew => Topic started by: Jozzer on July 26, 2009, 06:10:50 PM
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Hi guys,
First post here, wanted to come introduce myslf and one of our bikes.
Heres some video of our electric Ducati, fitted wwith dual Agnimotors, running at 90v on a kelly 120v 1200A controller.
First up, motors in series (good for 55mph, very high torque, very controllable throttle and regen)
Jozzbikes Ducati. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ltJ9AKWsk#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Next motors in parallel, top speed 110mph or so. 91mph max achived on this run (part 2)
NA1 Jozzbikes Ducati (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sob_LgOk814#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
NA2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHrkS-E8RmQ#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
I have data files (excel) matching these video's showing current/speed/ah/v/time but when I tried to attach them I was told they were too large (and the long thread I had written was lost!). Should you wish to view them, drop me an email (steve@jozzbikes.co.uk) and I'll forward them on. A sample of the file looks like this: (time, AH, volts, amps, speed, miles)
13:40.0 12.046 79.25 344.2 70.15 13.056
13:40.2 12.066 78.81 361.1 70.94 13.06
13:40.4 12.086 78.55 344.6 72.26 13.064
13:40.6 12.107 78.15 392.1 73.15 13.068
13:40.8 12.128 77.69 371.2 74.26 13.072
13:41.0 12.148 77.44 366.5 75.26 13.076
13:41.2 12.169 77.17 368 76.04 13.08
13:41.4 12.19 76.85 376.6 76.79 13.084
13:41.6 12.212 76.39 405 77.95 13.089
13:41.8 12.235 76.08 403.2 78.75 13.093
13:42.0 12.256 75.55 390.2 79.9 13.098
13:42.2 12.279 75.41 412.5 80.63 13.102
13:42.4 12.302 74.85 407.6 81.62 13.107
13:42.6 12.325 74.75 412.9 82.2 13.111
13:42.8 12.347 74.79 396.5 82.55 13.116
13:43.0 12.371 74.14 434.8 83.52 13.12
13:43.2 12.394 73.74 420.2 84.08 13.125
13:43.4 12.419 73.57 440 84.61 13.13
13:43.6 12.442 73.88 416 85.3 13.134
13:43.8 12.464 73.73 405.1 85.84 13.139
13:44.0 12.487 73.72 402.4 86.41 13.144
13:44.2 12.508 73.92 387.4 86.94 13.149
13:44.4 12.528 74.17 364 87.37 13.154
13:44.6 12.55 74.56 392.3 87.96 13.159
13:44.8 12.571 75.02 375.4 88.12 13.163
13:45.0 12.59 75.04 341.6 88.67 13.168
13:45.2 12.611 74.78 382.2 89 13.173
13:45.4 12.631 75.32 350.3 89.3 13.178
13:45.6 12.649 75 335.9 89.49 13.183
13:45.8 12.667 75.61 327.5 89.74 13.188
13:46.0 12.687 75.16 348.1 90.03 13.193
13:46.2 12.706 75.72 351.5 90.17 13.198
13:46.4 12.726 75.44 350.3 90.32 13.203
13:46.6 12.745 75.59 338.6 90.6 13.208
13:46.8 12.762 75.87 320 90.71 13.213
13:47.0 12.781 75.61 333.3 90.88 13.218
13:47.2 12.797 75.64 298 91.23 13.223
13:47.4 12.815 76.01 316.7 91.09 13.229
13:47.6 12.833 75.87 320.5 91.15 13.234
13:47.8 12.85 75.66 301.1 91.45 13.239
13:48.0 12.866 75.67 298.3 91.39 13.244
13:48.2 12.884 75.98 313.5 91.41 13.249
13:48.4 12.899 76.12 282.3 91.44 13.254
13:48.6 12.917 75.89 325 91.57 13.259
13:48.8 12.935 75.67 319.8 91.3 13.264
13:49.0 12.952 75.63 306.7 91.02 13.269
13:49.2 12.97 75.76 316 91.13 13.274
13:49.4 12.978 81.97 151.8 91.14 13.279
13:49.6 12.978 89.23 -0.1 90.14 13.284
13:49.8 12.978 89.7 -1.1 89.14 13.289
13:50.0 12.978 90.01 1.4 87.86 13.294
13:50.2 12.978 90.28 -0.1 86.78 13.299
13:50.4 12.978 90.47 -1.6 85.67 13.304
13:50.6 12.978 90.65 1.4 84.82 13.308
13:50.8 12.978 90.81 -1.9 83.72 13.313
13:51.0 12.977 91.7 -16.1 82.91 13.318
13:51.2 12.992 80.01 275.1 82.35 13.322
13:51.4 13.016 72.65 419.7 82.53 13.327
13:51.6 13.041 72.36 459 83.34 13.331
13:51.8 13.062 72.71 385 84.13 13.336
13:52.0 13.084 72.75 388.5 84.75 13.341
13:52.2 13.105 73.25 375.3 85.27 13.346
13:52.4 13.125 73.11 369.8 85.97 13.35
13:52.6 13.146 73.21 366.6 86.37 13.355
13:52.8 13.165 73.21 349.9 87.04 13.36
13:53.0 13.185 73.47 355.1 87.25 13.365
13:53.2 13.204 73.89 335.6 87.71 13.37
13:53.4 13.221 74.29 318.3 88.27 13.375
13:53.6 13.239 74.1 317.8 88.75 13.38
13:53.8 13.257 74.29 319.6 89 13.384
13:54.0 13.273 74.74 297.6 89.36 13.389
13:54.2 13.291 74.34 313.2 89.52 13.394
13:54.4 13.308 74.79 321.1 89.75 13.399
13:54.6 13.324 74.59 285.8 90.23 13.404
13:54.8 13.34 75.01 290.5 90.47 13.409
13:55.0 13.357 75.08 298.6 90.62 13.414
13:55.2 13.374 74.87 311.4 90.98 13.42
13:55.4 13.391 75.11 302.1 91.02 13.425
13:55.6 13.407 75.37 293.6 91.24 13.43
13:55.8 13.423 75.29 283.7 91.5 13.435
13:56.0 13.423 87.54 5.5 91.11 13.44
13:56.2 13.423 88.33 -5.8 90.39 13.445
13:56.4 13.423 88.73 1.1 89.55 13.45
13:56.6 13.423 89.01 -0.4 88.72 13.455
13:56.8 13.423 89.26 0.4 87.9 13.46
13:57.0 13.423 89.48 -1.6 87.12 13.464
13:57.2 13.423 89.66 1.4 85.97 13.469
13:57.4 13.423 89.83 0.9 85.37 13.474
13:57.6 13.423 90.01 0.4 84.25 13.479
13:57.8 13.423 90.16 -2.9 83.43 13.483
13:58.0 13.423 90.31 1.2 82.76 13.488
13:58.2 13.423 90.44 -0.8 81.72 13.492
13:58.4 13.423 90.55 -0.7 80.93 13.497
13:58.6 13.423 90.69 0.4 80.36 13.501
13:58.8 13.423 90.83 6.3 79.68 13.506
13:59.0 13.423 90.94 -1.4 79.01 13.51
13:59.2 13.423 91.07 3.4 78.37 13.515
13:59.4 13.423 91.15 0.6 77.75 13.519
13:59.6 13.424 91.29 2.4 77.06 13.523
13:59.8 13.423 91.36 -0.9 76.42 13.527
14:00.0 13.424 91.48 0.5 75.76 13.532
Still working on getting full power from this setup, both battery's and controller are short of peak power, but already have to be carefull of wheelies and wheelspins in series mode!
Hope you find it interesting,
Steve
PS, on another note, Jozzbikes Aprilia is up for sale in the UK, see website for more info:)
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looks pretty cool, any chance of some pics of the bike?
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Its currently having a fairing made for it (more streamlined), but heres a walkaround as it was last month..
Electric Ducati walkaround from Jozzbikes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QRBmHOPl70#lq-lq2-hq)
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Hey Steve, could you please provide me with a simple analysis of the two speed principle you mention on your website, running in series then parallel?
I'm having a little trouble grasping the concept ??? does it require pre setting or can it be switched on the fly while riding or ???
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Hey, thanks for posting Steve! The Ducati looks great so far. The series/parallel information is very interesting I've been to your site and it has tons of great information.
NewAge, I was reading this post which might help explain it. I would like to hear more about how it works. Is this what you are doing with your Ducati?
The first half of the track the motors are connected in series and both motors get the full current and thus give the full torque. About half way down the track the motors need more voltage to continue to accelerate and it shifts electrically so that the motors are in parallel and get the full voltage to reach higher speed.
http://iloapp.evahakansson.se/blog/www?Home&post=38 (http://iloapp.evahakansson.se/blog/www?Home&post=38)
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Hi guys,
The series parallel arrangement consists of 3 Kilavac contactors that arrange the motors either in series (so each see's half the controllers volts, and its full currnet) or parallel (so each motor see's full voltage and half the controllers output current).
In series mode it damn near pulls your arms off if you open the throttle from a standstill! For the moment there is a small switch near the throttle to switch back and forth, but I will be wiring it up through some electronics to either automate the switchover (so above halfspeed it switches itself to parallel, and back to series at below 40% speed), or keep it manual (with a smaller easier to operate switch) but add a failsafe so it cant be switched to series when the motors RPM is too high (this would result in higher than pack voltage at the controller, and will cause damage). Another part of the switching arrangemet is that you need it to cut the throttle (or regen) for 100ms or so whilst switching to save the contactors from heavy load switching and backlash. For the moment I've just put the switch far enough away so that you have to let go of the throttle to reach it.
I'm just waiting for some more electronics to arrive and I'll set the data logging back up again and take more vid/pics for you all. Part of the reason I havn't taken more pics is that the fairing is in a poor state, and I'm waiting for a custom made reduced drag fairing to be made up so I can get it in "JozzBikes" colours and stickers.
Still like to get more power from this setup, Kelly have offered to upgrade the controller again (for a fee) to increase power, especially at high revs. These motors are hardly getting pushed at all yet, highest temp so far has been 42C.
Steve
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I was wondering about that.... if you disconnect/reconnect while the controller isn't at 0% PWM, I bet it could really spike some voltage into the controller. It'd be nice if kelly could do series parallel switching (reduce to 0%, then switch the contactors).
get us video soon, even if its not the best, its nice to see the progression!
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Jozzer, thanks so much for you post with the data. If you'd like a simple place to host some files....http://stashbox.org (http://stashbox.org) is your friend =) Keep the data coming and Id love some temp data on the motors to go with your power / speed. Do you find the need to watch the temps of the motors?
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Hi Frodus,
It's going to be fairly simple to make an independant board to do the job, TBH I'd never trust a controller to switch the contactor anyway, since its controller failure you are using the contactor to protect against.
As I said Picasso, the motors are not getting above 40C external temperature, and just show a gradual rise throughout the journey, no peaks or troughs to record yet. In my book that means I'm not pushing it hard enough, but at least its safe to let others use it without fear of breakage!
Steve
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had a breif think about your switching problem, seems it would be very easily acheived with a custom contorller, or two controllers (one for each motor) as you could just use a solid state switching device and switch when the motor is in flyback current mode. With a single controller you probly wanna change the throttle to whatever pwm correspondes to zero current, then switch the contactors, you could even give the throttle a 'blip' to match the new pwm required, similar to shifting on a conventional bike.
Well at least i think thatd work :P
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Just one circuit to stop the relay switching to series when motor RPM is higher than 3000rpm, and to cut throttle voltage to 0v until switchover has finished is all I have planned. I can see motor current via the 2 ammeters at the top of the dash, and here is never anything flowing unless regen or throttle is active. Mr Dube hinted I should allow 100ms or so to allow any stray currents to die out, and certainly switching the switch I have now as fast as possible causes no ill effects.
No need for any "blipping", since I am not changing motor or gear speed, just changing the range of operation so to speak.
Although with an alltrax controller throttle position = speed, with this Kelly throttle position = current.
I'll post up details of the design when finished for those interested..
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with the kelly controller blipping the throttle would be a good idea if you have fast switching, as the current will double when you go from series to parallel.
But i agree, keep it simple is a good place to start, 100ms isnt very long to be off the power if you are controlling when that happens, however if it was automatic I think 100ms would become very annoying every time it changed.
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Yeah, I think that I get it now, sure would like to see it scratched out on paper though ;D
Thanks
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Series Parallel switching schematic:)
http://jozzbikes.co.uk/PHEV/electric_motorbikes/advice.php (http://jozzbikes.co.uk/PHEV/electric_motorbikes/advice.php)
Steve
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Hey Jozzer, any progress on this project?
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Nope, too busy building TTX02's! Will get back to it in the summer I hope..
Steve
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man, that may be the best excuse I've ever heard. :D
TTX02 looks great!
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Too bad my girlfreind doesnt agree, she thinks its a terrible excuse!
Glad you like it:)
Steve